~~ martyr!Remus, grr, argh.

[reenka]

I've only been reading S/R fic intensely for less than a week, and I already have a #1 pet peeve, ahahah. It's not at the must-strangle-someone stage yet by far, but it's... present.

What weirds me out is that there's this trend where fics keep making it that Remus is with Sirius as some sort of favor, because really, Remus knows better and Sirius is such a bastard (...and someone has to mention that at least once-- often Sirius himself). It's like, I wonder why Remus is friends with Sirius, if he really judges him so harshly-- or it really such a huge jump to respect someone enough to be their lover rather than their friend...?

It's like, even when I love a fic, I realize that the Remus cannot realistically be that above it all. Sometimes it's even felt like the whole fic, Sirius basically spent his time apologizing to Remus for who he is (with Remus forgiving him out of his innate-- well, I don't know! hard to tell), and that seems even more dysfunctional than the assholish behavior does. There seems to be a game of 'spot the bastard' going on, and The Bastard is pretty much Sirius. And it's not like with Snapefics, where the assholish behavior is part of the appeal for his partner-- no, Remus doesn't actually enjoy it. At all.

No, Remus is actually kind of... Oppressed, you see. By Sirius' assholish not-really-charming-thank-you behavior. But he tolerates it because... because.....
    See, here's where I get stuck. A lot of fics focus on Sirius boycrushing on Remus and finally realizing that, and it's all intense and everything-- and Remus wants him back, right. But it's not a question of Remus -falling- for Sirius-- or realizing he fancies him back. No, Remus holds back. Remus... basically, Remus doesn't trust Sirius with his heart.

Man. I know I've said the trust issues with this pairing interest me, but. It seems like the holding-back thing is some kind of moral judgment on Sirius, which really bugs me, for it reminds me of Harry's attitude towards Draco in fics, and dude, that's what I was trying to get away from. I mean, the main reason it bugs me so much is that there's no canon reason for it that I can see-- I mean, I can't really see evidence for Remus being the grudge-bearing type-- that's more Sirius' thing, dude.

Moreover, it seems like a nasty case of projection on the writers' part-- like, it's clear favoritism with Remus-- who apparently has little to no real offensive qualities, and is actually a long-suffering martyr. And I don't hate martyr!Harry as much 'cause well, at least that's canon. But. Remus doesn't have to be. So... wah. I thought the point of S/R was that Sirius could get Remus to loosen up-- let go of his reservations and feel. And if Remus spends the whole time basically making Sirius feel sorry about being himself (as far as Sirius is capable of)-- well-- that makes me feel like they're bad for each other. Which kind of... seems to be missing the point, no?

Comments

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Have I mentioned lately that I just adore you?

DUDE. THIS IS WHY I DON'T READ THE FIC ANYMORE.

*bangs head repeatedly against a wall*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heee! <333! :D!
...man, it was okay with just one author-- and then two-- and now it's like a trend o_0 and I'm like, but WHY??! WHY NO SIRIUS LOVE?? Aaaaaah. :((
I mean, it's all right if -they- don't love him, but you'd assume Remus does, wouldn't you? :/ Or is at least amused by him... or... something...??
Like, this whole... superiority thing... would Sirius even -stand- for it? o_0 Like, I'm thinking no :> :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Seriously.

The reality is, the wind is beginning to shift, and you'll probably see more Sirius!Love in some of the more recent stories. But yes, it was a trend, and continues to be a trend, though it's petering out around the edges.

As far as I can tell, from speaking to some of the people involved in said trend, it began with being sick and tired of the old school R/S, where Remus was whiny and weak-willed and worshipped Sirius the handsome sexgod. So they understandably rebelled by, uh, reversing it. Because fandom moves in trends and also tends to go to extremes: people have this unfortunate habit of counteracting a trend to the left by going ALL THE WAY TO THE RIGHT instead of finding a balance. It is unfortunate.

Anyway, so then you started seeing Sirius-the-subservient and Remus-the-alpha!Godthing, and OotP helped in this way too, because of the infamous "Sit down" and such like that.

The other thing is, I think that the R/S subfandom is largely Remus-based? Which is to say, in my personal experience it consists more of Remus fans than Sirius fans - not that they don't like Sirius, but many of them like Sirius-as-Remus's-boyfriend more than Sirius himself, or they love them both, but have a definite Remus preference. (I know this is my personal experience because I've mentioned it before and other people have come out to say actually, they've experienced the opposite. So, mileage varies.)

Anyway, it's starting to shift. Like, the new generation of Influential R/S Writers seem to be more balanced, or even Sirius-biased at times, as opposed to the last wave, which was definitely Remus-based.

So yeah, my advice is, read the newer stuff, maybe hang around Shacking Up or something? And when you find a writer who is as annoyed about it as you are? Prize their recs, LOL!

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Ehhh, I see it less as a trust issue and more as a just-Remusy kind of thing, because I always imagine him like Teh Shoebox write him and so that means that no matter how much he trusts anyone, there's always the werewolf in him so he'll never trust himself enough, so then there's way too much over-analysis and stuff. Though maybe not as whimpy and moralising/unpranking as Teh Shoebox do him.

I have to admit though, whilst I do think this is probably one of the the best interpretations of canon around, there can be others. Remus doesn't have to be totally angsty and self-doubting/reserved yet needy or whatever you want to call him.

I think someone once mentioned it in the Ship Manifesto thing- Remus is inherently good, and wants to be liked by people, but he wants to be liked by different kinds of people, which is where his conflict occurs. He wants to be one of the Marauders, but he will always be a werewolf as well, yet he wants to be a good student and be a good student under Dumbledore and everything, which causes his inner conflict.

Still, post-"accident" fics I think would have some serious issues, because, oh, that's right, Sirius almost blew everything Remus had worked so hard on for so long to hide & that could get him KILLED and everything, so I do consider the whole "moral judgement" thing you brought up valid in those kinds of situations. But the really "I'm so much nicer/better behaved/not as assholish-than-you" kind of general characterisation in Remus I don't like, because he was one of the boys, even if he was a slighty repressed and desiring of wider acceptance, moreso than James or Sirius at least. Well okay I do like it, but in a really guilty-pleasure-feeding-my-inner-angsty-Moony kind of way. I know it's not quite true IC though, like my love of leatherpants/sexgod!Draco.

I think there is a lot of favouritism towards Remus, which I think needs to be countered. We need some nasty!Remus fics, with him pulling the pranks and being one-of-the-boys as the other ones. I think it's just easier with Sirius because we get more nastiness from him than we do Remus in the books, which can be blamed on his time spent in prison, & then being forced to stay in Grimmauld Place I guess. If Remus was locked in the Shrieking Shack as a werewolf for 12 years, I think he'd be quite nasty as well.

ack repost -.- again -.-

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, in all these fics specifically (which is what I was talking about)... uh... it's not really that he has issues with himself so much as basically... it all comes down to Because Sirius Is A Bastard. Sure, Remus is reticent, fine-- but Sirius' function, like-- I'd hope-- is to loosen him up-- that's (what I thought) was The Point. Instead of Sirius loosening Remus up, however, I get lots of... Remus demanding a tamer Sirius for him to even consider a relationship. And it being blatantly stated that Sirius is Not Worthy. Which... kind of actually pisses me off at Remus.

Like... I'm not arguing that Remus isn't self-doubting and reserved. But this is something you have to move beyond in some way if you really want to pair Remus & Sirius, I figure. They blunt each other's edges-- they complement each other. Isn't that the idea? They make these things less... overwhelming.

So it's not that I have a problem with Issues-- Issues are Just Fine. Like, I'm not talking about Inner Conflict and Remus' Deep And Meaningful Pain (...I'm sure... right... except if people started talking about Sirius' Deep & Meaningful Pain Also, people might just laugh). Anyway. I don't see in canon where Remus actually was shown to think the Prank was a Huge Big Deal Omg How Could You Sirius Honestly I Trusted You. I mean, I'm sure there were repercussions... but in PoA, Remus was like, 'lay off Snape, that was ages ago, stop holding grudges'. So while I can handle it being an issue, it needn't be The Issue Of Utter Doom. All the time. Or even most of the time.

It's just. I can't ship S/R if Remus is just with Sirius as a favor. That is all.

Re: ack repost -.- again -.-

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Isn't that the idea?

Hell yeah. Totally in 100% agreement with you there. Actually, I really like Moony/Padfoot fics where it's like "Teh wolf is less animal when Padfoot is there" n shit. They make me happy and giggly in that fangirl kind of way.

except if people started talking about Sirius' Deep & Meaningful Pain Also, people might just laugh

NO! Sirius has pain. He's totally twisted and bitter over his stupid family being... evil and stuff. In that spoilt-upperclass-rebel kinda way. If that counts.

[manynames.livejournal.com]

I've only been in the fandom since just OotP, so not sure if this is a phenomenon that mostly happened after but this post has got me wondering if it's something to do with knowing more about the Black family. I think that people might be extrapolating from canon that Sirius sort of looks down on himself because of what his family are like, but I don't know that I can really see him thinking himself worse than everyone - I reckon it's more likely that he'd mostly think of himself as being better than the rest of his family. I'm probably not making an awful lot of sense though :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do think he'd most likely think he's better than the rest of the Blacks-- and I haven't read a fic that didn't show that yet, actually. I mean, Sirius is still an arrogant bastard in these fics-- it's just that everyone keeps repeating (often Sirius) what a bastard he is and how he doesn't deserve -Remus-. I mean, as a friend, yeah, but not a lover because-- blahblahblah. So I don't really see Sirius being portrayed as having self-esteem issues so much as Remus having issues with Sirius ^^;

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Aahahahaha, somehow that doesn't surprise me. O Saint Remus, save me from the evil popular people I hanged with because I liked the attention because they, too, were unique and beautiful snowflakes, just not as unique at me, for I too was an unique and beautiful martyr of the popular pretty people. Deliver me from evil and let us join together with Snape and Harry in martyrdom, forever and ever amen.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, it doesn't really go down like that (...I mean, it's a pet peeve, but it's not a screaming catastrophe, heh).
It's all... much more subtle, obviously, but also... it's not like Sirius ever became a martyr... or even consciously realized that Remus was saying he should repent for who he -was- (I don't think anyone could get away with writing Sirius that unrealistically). I mean, there's the Prank, which Remus only has to avoid Sirius for to make Sirius feel bad.... And it's not like Sirius generally changes his behavior ('cause that'd be majorly OOC, seeing as you're not writing AU), so much as he proclaims-- or someone proclaims-- that he's a bastard. A lot.

He kind of -expects- Remus to forgive him, generally-- he doesn't prostrate himself, exactly. It's just that there's a lot of forgiving to do, and Remus holds back. Like, he'd have a relationship all right-- it's not like he wouldn't touch Sirius unless he met some conditions or whatever-- it's more a matter of Remus giving in. Er. It's hard to explain if you haven't read them, maybe :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

It's hard to explain if you haven't read them, maybe

No, thank you. Between the puppy love and the woobies of destiny, I'm wondering why hasn't the HP fandom brought about world peace yet?

I dislike martyrs because they put the focus on moral hieracy rather than the humanity of the characters. I am really not daying that Remus Lupin is like that or that S/R can't work because of the moral judgments, just that the way certains characters are sold to me in the books (as "good" rather than sympathetic) is why I don't like them. There's such a riff of self-righteous smug propaganda in that. This is why I like unapologetic unromantic characters and pairings like J/S and D/P. But you knew that. Plus, preaching is at his most manipulative and evil when it's subtle. I am feeling the political hate, must go recite mantra.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

thank you.
yes.
that's it.
i thought that i only disliked puppy love. but i found the martyr remus to be the worst. story after story, moral judgement after judgement, and sirius as well as remus stuck in a situation i cannot see as either good for them or appealing for me.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Le sigh. On the bright side, not all fics are like that-- just. A lot of them -.- Like, this isn't really IC, so perhaps you can take comfort in the fact that neither of them are Really Like That :D

appreciates the icon

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

hehe, yes, the fact that i think it's ooc ... well, as 99 % of bloggers don't think so, it's hard to hold on to that.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

See, now why weren't you on nraged when I was the big meanie for saying exactly this about that S/R? I couldn't see why it was just obvious: if the biggest draw of the relationship is that you're morally superior to the other person and enjoy being the martyr you're even more screwed up than the asshole.

spam

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I remember those nraged days. I was a lurker and yet sometimes wanted to debute with a flamewar about Remus's passive-aggressive slimeball tactics.

"Omg Sirius cheated!" (or didn't, but still, it's the principle of things)

"Omg Remus went on another ego-trip!" (and tried to manipulate everyone into hating Sirius and especially Harry into shifting Godfathers and rewarded him for shitting on Sirius and despite the fact that Sirius iss being the bigger man in all this and classly avoiding comments, Remus has still the moral highground)

JADEDSIRIUS/PURESTBLOOD FOREVER OMG.

Re: spam

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...to save Sirius from a badly played Remus you'd throw him to a Malfoy? o_0 heh No one deserves that :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't think the S/R I've been reading are so messed up as to imply that Remus -wants- Sirius -because- he feels morally superior. I mean, it's more subtle than that, because it's more... implied and between the lines than something Remus directly says or feels (helps that a lot of fics are Sirius pov, too). Like, it's not a -draw- for him generally-- it's just something to overcome, and as long as he doesn't, he admits to not feeling like being comfortable in a relationship with Sirius. So he doesn't lead Sirius on or anything, in these fics anyway. It's just that he holds back. So I wouldn't say he enjoys it, see, well, on the surface level at least. In the well-written fics especially.

But yes, from what I know of NA... heheheh. I didn't read it ;))

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man. I just read the Sirius Q&A on nraged, and this (http://www.livejournal.com/community/nraged/509779.html?thread=11945043#t11945043)... well, damn. Even Sirius' -player- thought he loved himself more than Harry or Remus or anyone....??!

...you know, I never thought I had any particular love for Sirius, but that's really harsh, especially since people seem to be harder on him than on Snape or Lucius or hey, REMUS.
I mean, does calling Sirius a selfish thoughtless bastard as if that explains everything he does wrong really make sense, even...??

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Well... could be just that the Trick is such a Big Really Bad No Good Thing and doesn't ever get addressed in canon, so people try to make up for it?
Ah, my wisdom is so wise.
Best not to try and get away from H/D, I feel.
and in other news, PATRICIA MCKILLIP OMG!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

But this stuff totally extends past the Trick... and like... Sirius is a bastard for a zillion other reasons, too. And even after Remus forgives him for that in these fics (because Remus has a Big... something-or-other), it's still like... Sirius can never really be good enough for Remus. Which is just OOC ^^;
Heeheheh I don't think I -can- get away from Teh H/D, but duuuuude there's so much badfic. Do -you- read it?? :> You'd take pity on me if you read the amount of bad H/D porn that I do. My life is so hard!! :D


HEHEHEH! Which did you reeeead?? (...She's generally consistent though, so you can't really go wrong) :D

[stellabelle.livejournal.com]

You can't tell me to read R/S and then come up with ideas of why it doesn't work! YOU CAN'T! Well, er. You can, but y'know, that's like saying..."Oh look, here's this boy you should totally go out with!" and then saying, 3 days later, "Oh, but did I tell you that for fun he builds exact replicas of post-Art Deco style houses using only Cheetos? And also, sometimes he does stuff that's just weird."

Okay, fine, it's not the same thing at all. I can't analyze yet, y'know, cause my relationship with them is so new. I mean, I haven't even shown them my knickers yet. Um. ANNND I still feel like I'm cheating on my boys, you realize this, right, haha. I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS WORKING REENA! (Although I did like the ones you recommended, like, really.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahah but that wasn't Ideas Why It Doesn't Work, dude. :> That'd be like saying "I hate those stupid Veela!Draco fics" is evidence for why H/D doesn't work :> It's just there's a lot of messed up characterization out there, but that doesn't mean there's no good stuff~:) And even if all the fics sucked (which they don't), it -still- wouldn't mean the pairing sucks-- it'd just mean they're all wrong and I'm right :))

All pairings are bound to have wacked fics for it, especially when they're as huge as the S/R fandom is.
I think I've just read a good amount of S/R in a really short period of time, and remember, I've been reading it (slowly) for a long time now. Maybe I'll cut-tag any future Sirius&Remus meta for your sake :D

I'm glad you liked them! Read more librae, imochan & yeats! Oh, well, `Five Ways to Open Your Arms (http://www.livejournal.com/users/imochan/230334.html)' & `Compromises (http://www.livejournal.com/users/yeats/96232.html)', `Coordinates, Too (http://www.livejournal.com/users/librae/16935.html#cutid1)' & `Postscript (http://www.livejournal.com/users/yeats/90829.html)'-- they're all rather short :> :>

[booboosheep.livejournal.com]

Any story that has Sirius slobbering on anyone's boot's, especially Remus's, is just... I don't want to say stupid? Except it is. Sirius has enough self-respect/reliance/egotism enough for half of Hogwarts, and we've only seen him actually show shame once, and that only after people died. He doesn't care enough about consequence to go begging on bended knee for forgiveness and/or hot man sex.

As for Remus being all godlike and judgemental... ha. No comment.

One of the main reasons I don't read fic anymore.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahah come to think of it, the whole thing reads like some sort of wish-fulfillment fantasy where the writer wishes That Bad Boy realized what an asshole he was and... what a long-suffering righteous kind friend he really had ^^;
To be fair, most of these fics don't have Sirius actually ask for forgiveness so much as pester Remus into giving in -.- Which isn't much better.

The problem I really have is that it's an unfair slam on Remus, really :>