~~ martyr!Remus, grr, argh.

[reenka]

I've only been reading S/R fic intensely for less than a week, and I already have a #1 pet peeve, ahahah. It's not at the must-strangle-someone stage yet by far, but it's... present.

What weirds me out is that there's this trend where fics keep making it that Remus is with Sirius as some sort of favor, because really, Remus knows better and Sirius is such a bastard (...and someone has to mention that at least once-- often Sirius himself). It's like, I wonder why Remus is friends with Sirius, if he really judges him so harshly-- or it really such a huge jump to respect someone enough to be their lover rather than their friend...?

It's like, even when I love a fic, I realize that the Remus cannot realistically be that above it all. Sometimes it's even felt like the whole fic, Sirius basically spent his time apologizing to Remus for who he is (with Remus forgiving him out of his innate-- well, I don't know! hard to tell), and that seems even more dysfunctional than the assholish behavior does. There seems to be a game of 'spot the bastard' going on, and The Bastard is pretty much Sirius. And it's not like with Snapefics, where the assholish behavior is part of the appeal for his partner-- no, Remus doesn't actually enjoy it. At all.

No, Remus is actually kind of... Oppressed, you see. By Sirius' assholish not-really-charming-thank-you behavior. But he tolerates it because... because.....
    See, here's where I get stuck. A lot of fics focus on Sirius boycrushing on Remus and finally realizing that, and it's all intense and everything-- and Remus wants him back, right. But it's not a question of Remus -falling- for Sirius-- or realizing he fancies him back. No, Remus holds back. Remus... basically, Remus doesn't trust Sirius with his heart.

Man. I know I've said the trust issues with this pairing interest me, but. It seems like the holding-back thing is some kind of moral judgment on Sirius, which really bugs me, for it reminds me of Harry's attitude towards Draco in fics, and dude, that's what I was trying to get away from. I mean, the main reason it bugs me so much is that there's no canon reason for it that I can see-- I mean, I can't really see evidence for Remus being the grudge-bearing type-- that's more Sirius' thing, dude.

Moreover, it seems like a nasty case of projection on the writers' part-- like, it's clear favoritism with Remus-- who apparently has little to no real offensive qualities, and is actually a long-suffering martyr. And I don't hate martyr!Harry as much 'cause well, at least that's canon. But. Remus doesn't have to be. So... wah. I thought the point of S/R was that Sirius could get Remus to loosen up-- let go of his reservations and feel. And if Remus spends the whole time basically making Sirius feel sorry about being himself (as far as Sirius is capable of)-- well-- that makes me feel like they're bad for each other. Which kind of... seems to be missing the point, no?

Comments

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Hahah come to think of it, the whole thing reads like some sort of wish-fulfillment fantasy where the writer wishes That Bad Boy realized what an asshole he was

LMAO! IT DOES OMG! *bangs head against the wall*

It's an unfair slam on both of them, really. It makes them both insufferably unlikable, albeit for very different reasons.

Also, Reena STOP BEING SO INTERESTING IT'S STOPPING ME FROM DOING MY PSYCH HOMEWORK. ;)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I live to corrupt, man :D :D Though I should be doing my reading (...well, my non-fanfic reading) myself at the moment ^^;;

I think it's just that Sirius has more champions than Remus in this case...? Or maybe it's that the people who'd want to slam Sirius just seem... insane...? :D

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

The thing is, Sirius only has more champions because he's the one who needs them.

And the reason he's the one who needs them is because Remus is the one who has the mass of the fandom. Know what I mean? It's been said that Remus is the most beloved character in the fandom. I don't know that it's true - Snape and Draco have huge followings, for example, but the fact that someone can say it and make people go "huh. Could be, actually" is, IMO, proof of the problem at hand.

So yeah, Sirius has more champions, but only because his fanbase is, at least in R/S fandom, so outnumbered (and his portrayals are so... insulting) that the fans he has get all pissed off and turn vocal. Remus doesn't need champions, since he's the only being glorified. Or, you know, what the fans doing it think of as glorified.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...Y'know... hmm. Yeah. Well, most people don't seem to talk about their Remus love like they do with Snape or Ron or Draco...? But yeah, there's not actually a huge Sirius fandom, is there. Which is odd o_0 See, for the longest time, I couldn't even imagine writing Remus or S/R because I got this impression from fandom that Remus was... uh... shabby & kind & quiet (oh, and also a werewolf). Which doesn't seem like much of a character and more your favorite uncle or that really nice English teacher from 3rd grade who gave you chocolate and now you think he's one of the best people you've known, except you've never known him.

I think people really do patronize quiet people. I think that's it. Like... I'm not really a sweet person, but a lot of people seem to think I'm kind of harmless and 'cute' because I just don't say offensive things a lot (...well, moreso in real life than lj, I guess). So... he's introspective and not showy about his emotions, which makes it easy to think he's got somehow 'better' emotions. I think on the surface, Remus really is just kind of... nice. I mean, he's not, but he plays it on TV all right. And most people just go for that. Plus, werewolves are cool and people must feel sorry for him.

Whereas Sirius is just so... obvious. *sigh* Which is probably why he's easy to bash...?
There are probably few people (in a random sampling) who'd really understand what it's like to be like Remus, and they would be unlikely to glorify him, but... most people would just see him from the outside, I guess...? And he's all about deceiving appearances.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Dude, you don't think people talk about their Remus love? Clearly not hanging around R/S shippers very much. ;)

Seriously, he's loved like whoa, though I admit that Remus lovers tend to be quieter about it, probably because they don't feel the need to rebel against authorial disapproval the way Snape or Draco fans do, or fandom disapproval the way Ron fans often to. The other thing being that I think, often, people are attracted to characters that they either want to screw or personally identify with? And with Remus you get a lot of the personally identifying sort of love, and if people are identifying with someone who comes off as a quiet sort of withdrawn introvert, they probably ARE a quiet, sort of withdrawn introvert, and as such are less likely to go on rants about it, does that make sense?

So I think that may be part of the reason for it all, yes. And yes, people do assume that quiet people are nice. Remus isn't particularly nice, I think: he's selfish and passive-aggressive and a bit of a control freak, among other things, but yeah he does have a very nice social face: sort of the quiet, helpful english teacher? And I think that is a real part of him as well, but I think that a lot of times Remus fans leave out the rest of it, or simply don't see it, or maybe interpret it differently, I don't know. But in any case, it does lead to a perception of him as morally superior to the other Marauders.

Like recently I got into a discussion on rxs about Remus in which someone said Remus had an "enormous heart and enormous love to give" and I was just thinking, "buh? When in the world did we ever see any evidence of THAT? While he was covering his own ass by letting Sirius sneak into Hogwarts and potentially kill people?" But because Remus's sins are so often sins of inaction rather than action, it can be difficult to notice, and so it gets kind of dicey.

Plus he comes with all this weight: the suffering and prejudice, the patched up clothes, the last one standing survivor's guilt. It's just very easy to idealize him.

most people would just see him from the outside, I guess...? And he's all about deceiving appearances.

Yep. And that's why I love him.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I um... it doesn't generally occur to me to hang around any sort of shippers... since they all kind of scare me. The H/D subfandom thing was kind of an accident since it's how I got into lj & fandom & everything and then I just started commenting on people's ljs and they happened to be shippers since they wrote H/D fics ^^; The whole... mass shipping thing kind of intimidates me-- like, they seem so... fanatical, I guess :>

It's odd to think that people would idealize someone they identify with-- like, do they all have huge egos, or what? I mean, I definitely do identify with Remus to a large enough extent, but it wouldn't occur to me to glorify him because of it anymore than it'd occur to me to glorify myself. But yes, I've noticed that it's either identification or romantic appeal. I don't know which freaks me out more ^^;; Like. I've often had characters I -loved- and wanted for myself if they existed, but I never... well, it seems like there's a sane limit, y'know. Where you admit they've got flaws & if you really like them, you like their flaws. Maybe that's just rare in people in general.

Hahah the 'enormous love' comment is typical projection-- the person was clearly saying -they- think they've got 'enormous love' & probably also no one appreciates it. Apparently there are these 'love' people with Harry too (AHAHAHAH OMG SO FUNNY), especially post-OoTP. I actually think Remus has lots of untapped love potential... mostly -because- it's untapped :>

This whole idealizing people you think you're like... that's creepier than the people-you-want-to-shag thing. Especially if you also want to shag them ^^;;;;; Omg, brain hurts ^^;;

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, shippers kinda scare me too. Honestly, fandom sort of scares me. But I fell into it, and shipping, sorta like... I guess around the same way you did. So, yeah. But not all of them are nutters, as evidenced by, well, you and me and most people, I assume, that you or I hang out with. The fanaticism bugs.

The whole idealization thing... dude, I don't know. I guess it's similar to the Mary Sue phenomenon or something. But then I've never really identified with fictional characters anyway, because no matter how similar they are to me in one way they're always dissimilar in another, and I am loathe to project myself onto them, as it often leads to people lopping off the bits they don't identify with and turning the character into another version of themselves rather than, well, the character.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I never really -understood- the Mary Sue thing. I mean, sure, intellectually, kinda, but not -really- really. Though I don't mind super-powerful heroines/heroes (like... I don't have problems identifying with them, anyway) or uber-unique ones... usually none of that matters if they don't have a personality I click with. It's like... okay, I'm shallow, but not -that- shallow, or something :> So I can understand the urge to have a protagonist have silver hair and purple eyes & the power to talk to inanimate objects and fly or something... but the whole everyone-loves-them and they're-so-perfect-and-tidy-and-sweet is just.... Maybe people's greatest fantasy is really to be liked...? And I couldn't care less...?

But yes, I've always been wary of actually writing characters I felt too close to-- thusly I don't write Luna or pair her with anyone if I can help it. But I've role-played her so it's a bit too late to feel entirely separate (though in my defense, Luna's not a fleshed-out enough character for there to be many bits to lop off, really). Man, RPing messes with my mind ^^;;