~~ martyr!Remus, grr, argh.

[reenka]

I've only been reading S/R fic intensely for less than a week, and I already have a #1 pet peeve, ahahah. It's not at the must-strangle-someone stage yet by far, but it's... present.

What weirds me out is that there's this trend where fics keep making it that Remus is with Sirius as some sort of favor, because really, Remus knows better and Sirius is such a bastard (...and someone has to mention that at least once-- often Sirius himself). It's like, I wonder why Remus is friends with Sirius, if he really judges him so harshly-- or it really such a huge jump to respect someone enough to be their lover rather than their friend...?

It's like, even when I love a fic, I realize that the Remus cannot realistically be that above it all. Sometimes it's even felt like the whole fic, Sirius basically spent his time apologizing to Remus for who he is (with Remus forgiving him out of his innate-- well, I don't know! hard to tell), and that seems even more dysfunctional than the assholish behavior does. There seems to be a game of 'spot the bastard' going on, and The Bastard is pretty much Sirius. And it's not like with Snapefics, where the assholish behavior is part of the appeal for his partner-- no, Remus doesn't actually enjoy it. At all.

No, Remus is actually kind of... Oppressed, you see. By Sirius' assholish not-really-charming-thank-you behavior. But he tolerates it because... because.....
    See, here's where I get stuck. A lot of fics focus on Sirius boycrushing on Remus and finally realizing that, and it's all intense and everything-- and Remus wants him back, right. But it's not a question of Remus -falling- for Sirius-- or realizing he fancies him back. No, Remus holds back. Remus... basically, Remus doesn't trust Sirius with his heart.

Man. I know I've said the trust issues with this pairing interest me, but. It seems like the holding-back thing is some kind of moral judgment on Sirius, which really bugs me, for it reminds me of Harry's attitude towards Draco in fics, and dude, that's what I was trying to get away from. I mean, the main reason it bugs me so much is that there's no canon reason for it that I can see-- I mean, I can't really see evidence for Remus being the grudge-bearing type-- that's more Sirius' thing, dude.

Moreover, it seems like a nasty case of projection on the writers' part-- like, it's clear favoritism with Remus-- who apparently has little to no real offensive qualities, and is actually a long-suffering martyr. And I don't hate martyr!Harry as much 'cause well, at least that's canon. But. Remus doesn't have to be. So... wah. I thought the point of S/R was that Sirius could get Remus to loosen up-- let go of his reservations and feel. And if Remus spends the whole time basically making Sirius feel sorry about being himself (as far as Sirius is capable of)-- well-- that makes me feel like they're bad for each other. Which kind of... seems to be missing the point, no?

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

See, now why weren't you on nraged when I was the big meanie for saying exactly this about that S/R? I couldn't see why it was just obvious: if the biggest draw of the relationship is that you're morally superior to the other person and enjoy being the martyr you're even more screwed up than the asshole.

spam

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I remember those nraged days. I was a lurker and yet sometimes wanted to debute with a flamewar about Remus's passive-aggressive slimeball tactics.

"Omg Sirius cheated!" (or didn't, but still, it's the principle of things)

"Omg Remus went on another ego-trip!" (and tried to manipulate everyone into hating Sirius and especially Harry into shifting Godfathers and rewarded him for shitting on Sirius and despite the fact that Sirius iss being the bigger man in all this and classly avoiding comments, Remus has still the moral highground)

JADEDSIRIUS/PURESTBLOOD FOREVER OMG.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...to save Sirius from a badly played Remus you'd throw him to a Malfoy? o_0 heh No one deserves that :D

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

But he was well-played!

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

But he was still a (married!) Malfoy, and thusly Not Good For Sirius :>

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

When you talk morals at me you remind me of Remus.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah. I didn't mean morals :> I meant a happy relationship, which seems to be the obvious thing to want for Sirius...?
Like, it would be about as self-destructive for Sirius to be with Malfoy as to be with Snape, except worse, 'cause really, Malfoy isn't as good a person as Snape (which... is kinda sad, actually). Like, after all that, growing up, trying to get away from his Pureblood legacy... from all the things Sirius hates-- Lucius kind of represents that now that the only remaining real Black married him.

Besides, the whole moralizing thing? Is actually a bad characterization of Remus, not how Remus is.

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

We see things from a different angle. I think they'd have had a great time googling it. Remus would never google it.

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

you'd throw him to a Malfoy? o_0 heh No one deserves that :D

Sst called, he wants his self-esteem back.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I wondered if you'd bring that up :> I probably should've said 'Lucius Malfoy', but I was going 'Sirius pov' since I was thinking 'what's good for Sirius' ^^;
I do actually think everyone is good for someone-- that is, even Lucius is probably good for someone-- maybe-- well, no. Some people are just so messed up they need mucho therapy before they should be allowed into relationships. Hahah hey I'm not being judgmental if I include me in this, right.
Anyway, I still think Draco's good for Harry, so it's all good :>

Tell SST that SG is holding it ransom ;)

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

I really don't care about "what's good for X", I think anybody would under the right conditions. I just want to read interesting stories. I really dislike calling people "good" or "bad".

I was thinking that this whole problem you are having with Remus, I have it with Harry and this whole dogma that you have to fix Draco to make him a deign to lick his feet. Harry is, after all, a canon martyr.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eh. The right conditions....
Man. Maybe I'm just harder to cohabitate with than most of humanity.... But I'm telling you right now, I can't stand most people under any conditions -.- There is no condition that's good enough with 80% of everyone I know. I just want them away. FAR. FAR. AWAY. :>

That said.
Perhaps people who're not quite as... er... allergic to humanity as I would see it differently. However, I do think that some people/characters are just more limited than others. Like, I think Remus is more limited than Sirius. And oh man... some people are just... well... abusive/insane/violent-- and when I said 'they need therapy' I meant they'd need to change their 'conditions', heh.

Anyway, I thought the argument against N_A!S/R was that it was a hugely dysfunctional relationship-- not that it was boring/not interesting enough. My mistake. Anyway, that was what SM said, I thought.

Eh, I stopped reading H/D partly for that reason-- because I grew sick of thinking about Draco from Harry's pov. It still makes me nauseous to go there. Anyway, I don't know what you mean by 'dogma'. Do you think it's IC? It feels IC to me. Which is what separates it from S/R, for which it's OOC. But with Harry... meh. I'm tired of darkfic, tired of Harry's issues, tired of how little Draco could do. That's just me though... and anyway, most people don't write H/D like that... I think...?

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I just read the Sirius Q&A post (http://www.livejournal.com/community/nraged/509779.html), and really, I wouldn't really ship this Sirius with anyone because he's such a caricature of himself :/ And the player internalizes and supports all Remus' moralizing, so the whole characterization is skewed anyway. You can't blame Remus' player for this, basically.

Really, Sirius was played as... I wouldn't say he seems -more- of a bastard than in canon (whatever precise measurement of 'bastard' would be), but rather he just seems to have no control of himself at -all- and to have no qualms about acting out like the most stupid 13 year-old there is.

Anyway, I think Sirius' player said somewhere that they disapproved of the Sirius/Lucius 'thing' more than Remus probably did.

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

I heard Sirius's player changed halfway - but that's gossip, so take it with a grain of salt.

but rather he just seems to have no control of himself at -all- and to have no qualms about acting out like the most stupid 13 year-old there is.

<3333333

I'm hearting this because what's "acting like a stupid 13 year old" is just being healthily capable to have fun w/o being swayed by what society tells you you should be.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Nono, it's not fun when it fucks everything up and it hurts people you love and you do it as a demonstration that you're incapable of caring about any loyalty except to yourself. Actually, most 13 year-olds aren't so bad, I guess. I'm just surmising things from my very limited experience with N_A!Sirius & mostly that Q&A, where all of this was explained by his selfishness. Society tells you to fuck up your closest relationships and ruin people's trust in you for shags with people who mean nothing to you-- just because you're self-destructive and incapable of any restraint?

No, when I say a 13 year-old, that's not at all healthy-- have you had experience with 13 year-old boys in relationships? It's healthy for 13 year-old boys, yeah, but not for 37 year-old boys by any stretch of the imagination-- that's just based on the fact that our relationships with others (and needs, too) are very different after 13. But they're not likely to cheat or lie or anything, they just wouldn't -commit-. And it's one thing to just not commit, and another to

Anyway, that's not really IC for Sirius, who has plenty of focus and dedication, I think. He may be immature, but he's not completely driven by pure selfishness, my god.

What I'm trying to say is-- I'm really offended by that Sirius characterization. He has no-- heart. He's all one giant hormone-- the selfish gene. And that's such a vile caricature of a human being, and to think the player said they -meant- to show that Sirius only cares for himself and how he needed to be punished and how he may not have deserved Remus.... Just. God.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't think the S/R I've been reading are so messed up as to imply that Remus -wants- Sirius -because- he feels morally superior. I mean, it's more subtle than that, because it's more... implied and between the lines than something Remus directly says or feels (helps that a lot of fics are Sirius pov, too). Like, it's not a -draw- for him generally-- it's just something to overcome, and as long as he doesn't, he admits to not feeling like being comfortable in a relationship with Sirius. So he doesn't lead Sirius on or anything, in these fics anyway. It's just that he holds back. So I wouldn't say he enjoys it, see, well, on the surface level at least. In the well-written fics especially.

But yes, from what I know of NA... heheheh. I didn't read it ;))

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It's more like, I think, the writer almost seems to be most attracted to the characters because of that.

Like...all pairings seem to bring with them a certain appeal, some good and some bad. Because for most pairings they do develop a certain character, you know? You couldn't just take an S/R story and change the name and it's H/S or H/D or Seamus/Dean--hopefully. Obviously there are some really badly written fics that are so generic they're equally OOC for everyone. But for some reason maybe S/R just offers an easy way to do the martyr-thing so if that's what an author likes maybe s/he might naturally drift to S/R rather than something else. Not that I don't think you find traces of this in every pairing...it's maybe just that S/R gives people maybe more freedom to do it while pretending they're being canonical.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Arg... yeah, I think you're right & it's depressing. This makes me wonder what 'thing' the (OOC) H/D writers/readers are attracted to-- well, mostly 'cause I like enough OOC H/D ficcage that I'm attracted to it too. It's just bad luck that I HATE martyr fics with a fiery passion (this isn't surprising, since one of my favorite archetypes is the Stoic... and you can't really be a martyred stoic, that's kind of an insult, isn't it).

It just seems so silly since the possibilities for play without the martyr thing-- just the dynamic between Remus & Sirius-- is so interesting and complementary and romantic. WAH. SILLY HUMANS.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking and thinking of this...what are the OOC possibilities with H/D? (This is probably a question for hd_discussion.)

I think Fanon!Draco of the snarky variety is probably a lot about the fantasy of being so cool that the coolest guy in the universe (Harry, in this case) gets all bumbly around you. Abused!Draco, which I can sometimes have a taste for too, to my shame, is probably about feeling sorry for yourself. Like, all the ugly things about you are just a cover for the real you inside and it's the world's fault your inner child is crying. *retch*

You can get both from Draco in canon--even though the result is pretty damn OT!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ehehehe abused!Draco makes me laugh~:)))!!! I haven't read many fics like that which were of tolerable quality in any other fashion so that I'd be tricked into reading them somehow. Is there any popular fic that utilizes this?

I think I kind of like cool!Draco (sort of like Sirius except smooth & without that nasty temper!! ahahahahah). I mean, I don't like badly-written cool!Draco who has no flaws (that's just boring), but I like a really snarky smirky hot-to-trot Draco (especially before OoTP). Yeah, it helped not having read canon. *reminisces* eheheheh. Man, I just realize sometimes that I love me some cool-ass-ponce!Draco and some hot-tempered-naif!Harry eheheheh. Is that the most common OOC trope, y'think? 'Cause then it'd explain my fascination, since I'm all about the fire/ice thing in all its myriad dopey incarnations.

And you should totally post that question on hd_discussion! :D :D I'm curious!! >:D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man. I just read the Sirius Q&A on nraged, and this (http://www.livejournal.com/community/nraged/509779.html?thread=11945043#t11945043)... well, damn. Even Sirius' -player- thought he loved himself more than Harry or Remus or anyone....??!

...you know, I never thought I had any particular love for Sirius, but that's really harsh, especially since people seem to be harder on him than on Snape or Lucius or hey, REMUS.
I mean, does calling Sirius a selfish thoughtless bastard as if that explains everything he does wrong really make sense, even...??

[malafede.livejournal.com]

So he's self-centered. So what. See if Sirius was paired with anyone but Remus this wouldn't happen.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Have you read that thread?
That's beyond self-centered-- and that thread made it clear that this had nothing to do with who he's paired with since he apparently didn't have the capacity to care about -anyone- enough to hold a relationship. And I don't see how if he was paired with anyone but Remus it wouldn't happen, since the player made it clear that he didn't care about anyone but Harry & Remus, such as he could.

And then Remus dying magically gave him that ability.

God, I think I hate N_A right now.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I mean, does calling Sirius a selfish thoughtless bastard as if that explains everything he does wrong really make sense, even...??

It doesn't, which is why I don't think I could even think of a question in that Q&A. I had the exact same reaction to that--wtf?

Actually, to be honest, it made me think the player had changed, because at the time of the breakup it seemed like Sirius' player was accepting that Sirius was the one in the wrong, but also felt really strongly that Sirius was not just being a bastard or just trying to cause pain to others. I really wanted to hear his side of the story because it just seemed like his player knew exactly how he felt and why he did whatever he did. The player starred things on Nraged that hinted at that as well--I mean, it seemed like he saw things a certain way and when I suggested that it was starred, so I felt pretty confident about the *real* reason Sirius did what he did, and it had nothing to do with him just being a selfish-bastard and that's it. It wasn't that he was blameless by any means, but I have a hard time seeing him as anything like that description.

That one on the Q&A seemed like Stepford Sirius who'd been re-educated or re-programmed to conform to Remus' view of him: He just did not care about anybody but himself. He was so awful to Remus. Remus was a better godfather. Harry liked Remus better because Remus was more deserving. Frankly, it felt like a scab had come in to re-write the original player's work or something. I probably already had that in my mind because Sirius had a long silence, during which Remus wrote about him in ways that made him seem ridiculous, and then he re-appeared disturbingly docile.

In my head I always thought of the time right after the breakup as the time Remus sent Sirius to the vet to have him fixed.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eheheheh!!! Omg, it all makes sense now~:)) It was -scary-, seeing that Q&A, like who in their right mind thinks that's Sirius?? And also my usual WHY GOD WHY, y'know :> They should've had two players answer that, then. *pouts*
eheheheheh FIXED <3 I feel cheered up now :>