~~ martyr!Remus, grr, argh.

[reenka]

I've only been reading S/R fic intensely for less than a week, and I already have a #1 pet peeve, ahahah. It's not at the must-strangle-someone stage yet by far, but it's... present.

What weirds me out is that there's this trend where fics keep making it that Remus is with Sirius as some sort of favor, because really, Remus knows better and Sirius is such a bastard (...and someone has to mention that at least once-- often Sirius himself). It's like, I wonder why Remus is friends with Sirius, if he really judges him so harshly-- or it really such a huge jump to respect someone enough to be their lover rather than their friend...?

It's like, even when I love a fic, I realize that the Remus cannot realistically be that above it all. Sometimes it's even felt like the whole fic, Sirius basically spent his time apologizing to Remus for who he is (with Remus forgiving him out of his innate-- well, I don't know! hard to tell), and that seems even more dysfunctional than the assholish behavior does. There seems to be a game of 'spot the bastard' going on, and The Bastard is pretty much Sirius. And it's not like with Snapefics, where the assholish behavior is part of the appeal for his partner-- no, Remus doesn't actually enjoy it. At all.

No, Remus is actually kind of... Oppressed, you see. By Sirius' assholish not-really-charming-thank-you behavior. But he tolerates it because... because.....
    See, here's where I get stuck. A lot of fics focus on Sirius boycrushing on Remus and finally realizing that, and it's all intense and everything-- and Remus wants him back, right. But it's not a question of Remus -falling- for Sirius-- or realizing he fancies him back. No, Remus holds back. Remus... basically, Remus doesn't trust Sirius with his heart.

Man. I know I've said the trust issues with this pairing interest me, but. It seems like the holding-back thing is some kind of moral judgment on Sirius, which really bugs me, for it reminds me of Harry's attitude towards Draco in fics, and dude, that's what I was trying to get away from. I mean, the main reason it bugs me so much is that there's no canon reason for it that I can see-- I mean, I can't really see evidence for Remus being the grudge-bearing type-- that's more Sirius' thing, dude.

Moreover, it seems like a nasty case of projection on the writers' part-- like, it's clear favoritism with Remus-- who apparently has little to no real offensive qualities, and is actually a long-suffering martyr. And I don't hate martyr!Harry as much 'cause well, at least that's canon. But. Remus doesn't have to be. So... wah. I thought the point of S/R was that Sirius could get Remus to loosen up-- let go of his reservations and feel. And if Remus spends the whole time basically making Sirius feel sorry about being himself (as far as Sirius is capable of)-- well-- that makes me feel like they're bad for each other. Which kind of... seems to be missing the point, no?

Comments

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Have I mentioned lately that I just adore you?

DUDE. THIS IS WHY I DON'T READ THE FIC ANYMORE.

*bangs head repeatedly against a wall*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heee! <333! :D!
...man, it was okay with just one author-- and then two-- and now it's like a trend o_0 and I'm like, but WHY??! WHY NO SIRIUS LOVE?? Aaaaaah. :((
I mean, it's all right if -they- don't love him, but you'd assume Remus does, wouldn't you? :/ Or is at least amused by him... or... something...??
Like, this whole... superiority thing... would Sirius even -stand- for it? o_0 Like, I'm thinking no :> :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Seriously.

The reality is, the wind is beginning to shift, and you'll probably see more Sirius!Love in some of the more recent stories. But yes, it was a trend, and continues to be a trend, though it's petering out around the edges.

As far as I can tell, from speaking to some of the people involved in said trend, it began with being sick and tired of the old school R/S, where Remus was whiny and weak-willed and worshipped Sirius the handsome sexgod. So they understandably rebelled by, uh, reversing it. Because fandom moves in trends and also tends to go to extremes: people have this unfortunate habit of counteracting a trend to the left by going ALL THE WAY TO THE RIGHT instead of finding a balance. It is unfortunate.

Anyway, so then you started seeing Sirius-the-subservient and Remus-the-alpha!Godthing, and OotP helped in this way too, because of the infamous "Sit down" and such like that.

The other thing is, I think that the R/S subfandom is largely Remus-based? Which is to say, in my personal experience it consists more of Remus fans than Sirius fans - not that they don't like Sirius, but many of them like Sirius-as-Remus's-boyfriend more than Sirius himself, or they love them both, but have a definite Remus preference. (I know this is my personal experience because I've mentioned it before and other people have come out to say actually, they've experienced the opposite. So, mileage varies.)

Anyway, it's starting to shift. Like, the new generation of Influential R/S Writers seem to be more balanced, or even Sirius-biased at times, as opposed to the last wave, which was definitely Remus-based.

So yeah, my advice is, read the newer stuff, maybe hang around Shacking Up or something? And when you find a writer who is as annoyed about it as you are? Prize their recs, LOL!

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Ehhh, I see it less as a trust issue and more as a just-Remusy kind of thing, because I always imagine him like Teh Shoebox write him and so that means that no matter how much he trusts anyone, there's always the werewolf in him so he'll never trust himself enough, so then there's way too much over-analysis and stuff. Though maybe not as whimpy and moralising/unpranking as Teh Shoebox do him.

I have to admit though, whilst I do think this is probably one of the the best interpretations of canon around, there can be others. Remus doesn't have to be totally angsty and self-doubting/reserved yet needy or whatever you want to call him.

I think someone once mentioned it in the Ship Manifesto thing- Remus is inherently good, and wants to be liked by people, but he wants to be liked by different kinds of people, which is where his conflict occurs. He wants to be one of the Marauders, but he will always be a werewolf as well, yet he wants to be a good student and be a good student under Dumbledore and everything, which causes his inner conflict.

Still, post-"accident" fics I think would have some serious issues, because, oh, that's right, Sirius almost blew everything Remus had worked so hard on for so long to hide & that could get him KILLED and everything, so I do consider the whole "moral judgement" thing you brought up valid in those kinds of situations. But the really "I'm so much nicer/better behaved/not as assholish-than-you" kind of general characterisation in Remus I don't like, because he was one of the boys, even if he was a slighty repressed and desiring of wider acceptance, moreso than James or Sirius at least. Well okay I do like it, but in a really guilty-pleasure-feeding-my-inner-angsty-Moony kind of way. I know it's not quite true IC though, like my love of leatherpants/sexgod!Draco.

I think there is a lot of favouritism towards Remus, which I think needs to be countered. We need some nasty!Remus fics, with him pulling the pranks and being one-of-the-boys as the other ones. I think it's just easier with Sirius because we get more nastiness from him than we do Remus in the books, which can be blamed on his time spent in prison, & then being forced to stay in Grimmauld Place I guess. If Remus was locked in the Shrieking Shack as a werewolf for 12 years, I think he'd be quite nasty as well.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, I've heard you talk about this before, but was totally not thinking meta (as I usually don't) when reading so much happy-shiny-new stuff, but... dude, it just jumps out! To the point where... I keep waiting for the reason Remus likes Sirius, and it never comes! o_0!! Like... don't most people at least want to write about both characters wanting/loving each other, when they're friends to start with! Okay, I come from a rival-slash fandom, right, and if you had a random cross-section of fics in H/D, you'd find that Harry actually seems to like Draco more than Remus likes Sirius o_0!!1!!!11

....And this latest batch, I er... found off Shacking UP (...or your post asking for smut, since my only other off-the-cuff well-known S/R sources were Ailei/Khirsah, Pru and also Kel ><;;; Well, that I remembered reading.)
So like... what -are- the new generation of Influential R/S Writers? :> Recs! Recs! (well, besides librae :))

Well, it's not like it really bothers me whether the writer likes Remus or Sirius more, it's like... okay, even alpha!Remus (...much as that makes me laugh... come to think of it... wait I'm laughing even now.... AHAHAHAH ALPHA!REMUS AHAHAHAH OMG THAT'S A FUNNY JOKE... where was I). Anyway, you'd think even alpha!serious-and-conscientious-to-a-fault!really-kind-of-blameless!Remus (...can I gag now??) should actually be given a -reason- for being indulgent. Like, since he's -being- indulgent in those fics. I'd like to know why, y'know? And really, I don't feel like I get a reason beyond, 'well, Sirius is a lucky bastard, all right'. o_0

Like, I see things like Remus denying he's hooking up for just the sex... except he doesn't actually exhibit the softer emotions or show that much vulnerability to Sirius... at all.

I mean...... just. Man -.-

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

To the point where... I keep waiting for the reason Remus likes Sirius, and it never comes!

Yeah, seriously. And the funny thing about those stories is, I never end up liking either of them. Because Sirius comes across as irredeemably assholic AND YET PATHETIC AT THE SAME TIME, and Remus comes across as moralizing, condescending and cold-hearted. Whee, yeah that's a pairing I want to read about. PFFT. Makes me want to write more. And I would, except... I have no ideas. Alas, poor me.

Anywho, yes. Alpha!Remus = HAHAHHAHA indeed, but I can SORTA see where it comes from, so I'd be willing to suspect my disbelief if it weren't such an unbalanced presentation of godthing!Remus and luckyforknowinggodthingRemus!Sirius. Alas.

It's annoying.

The thing with Shacking Up is, it's got a mix of the new wave and the old, but the reason I recommended hanging around there is because the new wave is actually there, LOL! And also because often the newer people post more than the older ones, because the older ones have their own followings in their own journals, know what I mean? That said, since they're new, there's also fewer of them.

Recs I totally suck at because... I don't read the fics very much, LOL! But the people I'm thinking of are people like imochan, librae yes (I loff her like apples,) krabapple was over in my LJ complaining about that recently too, and she is fab. regala_electra is another of the pro-Sirius camp. But I did notice that the new wave is also less romantic, so I dunno how much it will help. But then, I'm anti-romantic (she says while writing fluff) so that's probably just the people I tend to actually know/read. ;)

ack repost -.- again -.-

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, in all these fics specifically (which is what I was talking about)... uh... it's not really that he has issues with himself so much as basically... it all comes down to Because Sirius Is A Bastard. Sure, Remus is reticent, fine-- but Sirius' function, like-- I'd hope-- is to loosen him up-- that's (what I thought) was The Point. Instead of Sirius loosening Remus up, however, I get lots of... Remus demanding a tamer Sirius for him to even consider a relationship. And it being blatantly stated that Sirius is Not Worthy. Which... kind of actually pisses me off at Remus.

Like... I'm not arguing that Remus isn't self-doubting and reserved. But this is something you have to move beyond in some way if you really want to pair Remus & Sirius, I figure. They blunt each other's edges-- they complement each other. Isn't that the idea? They make these things less... overwhelming.

So it's not that I have a problem with Issues-- Issues are Just Fine. Like, I'm not talking about Inner Conflict and Remus' Deep And Meaningful Pain (...I'm sure... right... except if people started talking about Sirius' Deep & Meaningful Pain Also, people might just laugh). Anyway. I don't see in canon where Remus actually was shown to think the Prank was a Huge Big Deal Omg How Could You Sirius Honestly I Trusted You. I mean, I'm sure there were repercussions... but in PoA, Remus was like, 'lay off Snape, that was ages ago, stop holding grudges'. So while I can handle it being an issue, it needn't be The Issue Of Utter Doom. All the time. Or even most of the time.

It's just. I can't ship S/R if Remus is just with Sirius as a favor. That is all.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehehe, well, my definition of romantic isn't necessarily other people's :> Like, I find dynamic, interesting people who're affectionate yet argumentative together the most romantic thing, probably. Not as in, shmoopily affectionate and omg-hugs-and-flowers but more... where two people really have fun together and are fun to watch, and you want them to like, keep doing what they're doing, y'know? It's not like Ideal Couple of the Year, but it doesn't matter, 'cause they -work- together and because they -need- each other and you could tell, because who else would want them, really? They just -click- like whoah and they keep having this really intense but sometimes playful and sometimes (rarely) tender sex but also they don't need to have sex to have fun & just hearing them talk is pretty entertaining because they can just play off each other so well. That's pretty romantic. That's all I want (see, my demands are REALLY LOW ahahah).

Yeah, I totally dig where you're coming from with the pathetic-asshole!Sirius and not knowing what anyone sees in -either- of them ><;;; And when you start with the everyone-wants-Remus syndrome... you know what I mean, right.... ohhhhh boy.

I'd be more benevolent if I could tell -why- Remus was a godthing, too. Like, WHAT IS SO COOL ABOUT HIM??! If I could see that, it'd be like one of those good fanon!Draco fics where he's witty & pretty & bright-- like, sure, all right, fun to read about. But I really don't know why uptight-superior-and-cold!Remus is all that hot. And yeah, okay, the cold thing really gets to me. As in, I get how it's canon, but er... isn't that something you're supposed to work around, not like, show as the Perfect State Of Remus Lupin....?? ack :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Like, I find dynamic, interesting people who're affectionate yet argumentative together the most romantic thing, probably.

Dude, so do I. Thus the icon reflected pairing. ;)

And you know, I wonder that, too, about what the fuck is so cool about Remus. I mean, I like Remus, honest I do, I even like that he's cold, but... I only like that he's cold because it's a flaw. I mean, being so passive-aggressive, so self-contained, that's not good! And I like that he's cold because he warms up so well with Sirius, even in canon. Because that is part of what makes them work together, what makes them special together: that Sirius's fire can melt Remus's ice, at least temporarily, and Remus's restraint can give Sirius some sense of self-control.

As it is, a lot of the fic leaves out the give and take, and yeah, that's sucky.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

You know, that's really kind of odd, because the fire-and-ice thing is trademark romance material-- you'd think there'd be loads of fics that work with that since it's sort of... right there, to the point of me wondering why else would these people write/read S/R. Like, it's your classic opposites-attract thing, ahahahah. Which I'm clearly very predictably always drawn to :))

See, my first non-slash-but-kinda-smarm 'pairing' (which I never quite shipped as I didn't know what slash was) was Kirk/Spock-- and I loved Spock's coldness-- because there was all that passion and fiery emotion he was suppressing. That's what makes those people so fascinating, no? Well, you'd think. It's the chance to show the things they hide-- make them lose control. 'Cause when they blow up, they blow up harder than a normal person, right. It should be spectacular, really. And with Remus-- beyond those stupid why-god-why 'wolf inside' references (which wouldn't be so bad if I didn't get the feeling the writer has no idea of what the 'wolf inside' would actually feel like or how that even relates to werewolves since by all evidence, he's not really constantly aware of another consciousness or anything)-- Remus is clearly repressing majorly and desperately holding on to sanity & composure & such. And yet it's Sirius who's the mad one -.-

Le sigh.

PS

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Did you see this (http://www.livejournal.com/users/yeats/90829.html)? It's rather good.
Though... yet another one down for the count for someone saying that Sirius Deserves It.

I mean. WHY IS IT IN EVERY FIC WHY WHY WHYyyyyyyyyyyy?

[manynames.livejournal.com]

I've only been in the fandom since just OotP, so not sure if this is a phenomenon that mostly happened after but this post has got me wondering if it's something to do with knowing more about the Black family. I think that people might be extrapolating from canon that Sirius sort of looks down on himself because of what his family are like, but I don't know that I can really see him thinking himself worse than everyone - I reckon it's more likely that he'd mostly think of himself as being better than the rest of his family. I'm probably not making an awful lot of sense though :D

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Aahahahaha, somehow that doesn't surprise me. O Saint Remus, save me from the evil popular people I hanged with because I liked the attention because they, too, were unique and beautiful snowflakes, just not as unique at me, for I too was an unique and beautiful martyr of the popular pretty people. Deliver me from evil and let us join together with Snape and Harry in martyrdom, forever and ever amen.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

thank you.
yes.
that's it.
i thought that i only disliked puppy love. but i found the martyr remus to be the worst. story after story, moral judgement after judgement, and sirius as well as remus stuck in a situation i cannot see as either good for them or appealing for me.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

See, now why weren't you on nraged when I was the big meanie for saying exactly this about that S/R? I couldn't see why it was just obvious: if the biggest draw of the relationship is that you're morally superior to the other person and enjoy being the martyr you're even more screwed up than the asshole.

spam

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I remember those nraged days. I was a lurker and yet sometimes wanted to debute with a flamewar about Remus's passive-aggressive slimeball tactics.

"Omg Sirius cheated!" (or didn't, but still, it's the principle of things)

"Omg Remus went on another ego-trip!" (and tried to manipulate everyone into hating Sirius and especially Harry into shifting Godfathers and rewarded him for shitting on Sirius and despite the fact that Sirius iss being the bigger man in all this and classly avoiding comments, Remus has still the moral highground)

JADEDSIRIUS/PURESTBLOOD FOREVER OMG.

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Well... could be just that the Trick is such a Big Really Bad No Good Thing and doesn't ever get addressed in canon, so people try to make up for it?
Ah, my wisdom is so wise.
Best not to try and get away from H/D, I feel.
and in other news, PATRICIA MCKILLIP OMG!

[stellabelle.livejournal.com]

You can't tell me to read R/S and then come up with ideas of why it doesn't work! YOU CAN'T! Well, er. You can, but y'know, that's like saying..."Oh look, here's this boy you should totally go out with!" and then saying, 3 days later, "Oh, but did I tell you that for fun he builds exact replicas of post-Art Deco style houses using only Cheetos? And also, sometimes he does stuff that's just weird."

Okay, fine, it's not the same thing at all. I can't analyze yet, y'know, cause my relationship with them is so new. I mean, I haven't even shown them my knickers yet. Um. ANNND I still feel like I'm cheating on my boys, you realize this, right, haha. I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS WORKING REENA! (Although I did like the ones you recommended, like, really.)

Re: spam

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...to save Sirius from a badly played Remus you'd throw him to a Malfoy? o_0 heh No one deserves that :D

Re: spam

[malafede.livejournal.com]

But he was well-played!

Re: spam

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

But he was still a (married!) Malfoy, and thusly Not Good For Sirius :>

Re: spam

[malafede.livejournal.com]

When you talk morals at me you remind me of Remus.

Re: spam

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah. I didn't mean morals :> I meant a happy relationship, which seems to be the obvious thing to want for Sirius...?
Like, it would be about as self-destructive for Sirius to be with Malfoy as to be with Snape, except worse, 'cause really, Malfoy isn't as good a person as Snape (which... is kinda sad, actually). Like, after all that, growing up, trying to get away from his Pureblood legacy... from all the things Sirius hates-- Lucius kind of represents that now that the only remaining real Black married him.

Besides, the whole moralizing thing? Is actually a bad characterization of Remus, not how Remus is.

Re: spam

[malafede.livejournal.com]

We see things from a different angle. I think they'd have had a great time googling it. Remus would never google it.

Re: PS

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

As soon as someone says Sirius doesn't deserve Remus, the author loses me.

And I hate saying that, cos I'm very fond of the author of that one. ;)