~~ martyr!Remus, grr, argh.

[reenka]

I've only been reading S/R fic intensely for less than a week, and I already have a #1 pet peeve, ahahah. It's not at the must-strangle-someone stage yet by far, but it's... present.

What weirds me out is that there's this trend where fics keep making it that Remus is with Sirius as some sort of favor, because really, Remus knows better and Sirius is such a bastard (...and someone has to mention that at least once-- often Sirius himself). It's like, I wonder why Remus is friends with Sirius, if he really judges him so harshly-- or it really such a huge jump to respect someone enough to be their lover rather than their friend...?

It's like, even when I love a fic, I realize that the Remus cannot realistically be that above it all. Sometimes it's even felt like the whole fic, Sirius basically spent his time apologizing to Remus for who he is (with Remus forgiving him out of his innate-- well, I don't know! hard to tell), and that seems even more dysfunctional than the assholish behavior does. There seems to be a game of 'spot the bastard' going on, and The Bastard is pretty much Sirius. And it's not like with Snapefics, where the assholish behavior is part of the appeal for his partner-- no, Remus doesn't actually enjoy it. At all.

No, Remus is actually kind of... Oppressed, you see. By Sirius' assholish not-really-charming-thank-you behavior. But he tolerates it because... because.....
    See, here's where I get stuck. A lot of fics focus on Sirius boycrushing on Remus and finally realizing that, and it's all intense and everything-- and Remus wants him back, right. But it's not a question of Remus -falling- for Sirius-- or realizing he fancies him back. No, Remus holds back. Remus... basically, Remus doesn't trust Sirius with his heart.

Man. I know I've said the trust issues with this pairing interest me, but. It seems like the holding-back thing is some kind of moral judgment on Sirius, which really bugs me, for it reminds me of Harry's attitude towards Draco in fics, and dude, that's what I was trying to get away from. I mean, the main reason it bugs me so much is that there's no canon reason for it that I can see-- I mean, I can't really see evidence for Remus being the grudge-bearing type-- that's more Sirius' thing, dude.

Moreover, it seems like a nasty case of projection on the writers' part-- like, it's clear favoritism with Remus-- who apparently has little to no real offensive qualities, and is actually a long-suffering martyr. And I don't hate martyr!Harry as much 'cause well, at least that's canon. But. Remus doesn't have to be. So... wah. I thought the point of S/R was that Sirius could get Remus to loosen up-- let go of his reservations and feel. And if Remus spends the whole time basically making Sirius feel sorry about being himself (as far as Sirius is capable of)-- well-- that makes me feel like they're bad for each other. Which kind of... seems to be missing the point, no?

Comments

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oh man, I remember those nraged days. I was a lurker and yet sometimes wanted to debute with a flamewar about Remus's passive-aggressive slimeball tactics.

"Omg Sirius cheated!" (or didn't, but still, it's the principle of things)

"Omg Remus went on another ego-trip!" (and tried to manipulate everyone into hating Sirius and especially Harry into shifting Godfathers and rewarded him for shitting on Sirius and despite the fact that Sirius iss being the bigger man in all this and classly avoiding comments, Remus has still the moral highground)

JADEDSIRIUS/PURESTBLOOD FOREVER OMG.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...to save Sirius from a badly played Remus you'd throw him to a Malfoy? o_0 heh No one deserves that :D

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

But he was well-played!

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

But he was still a (married!) Malfoy, and thusly Not Good For Sirius :>

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

When you talk morals at me you remind me of Remus.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah. I didn't mean morals :> I meant a happy relationship, which seems to be the obvious thing to want for Sirius...?
Like, it would be about as self-destructive for Sirius to be with Malfoy as to be with Snape, except worse, 'cause really, Malfoy isn't as good a person as Snape (which... is kinda sad, actually). Like, after all that, growing up, trying to get away from his Pureblood legacy... from all the things Sirius hates-- Lucius kind of represents that now that the only remaining real Black married him.

Besides, the whole moralizing thing? Is actually a bad characterization of Remus, not how Remus is.

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

We see things from a different angle. I think they'd have had a great time googling it. Remus would never google it.

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

you'd throw him to a Malfoy? o_0 heh No one deserves that :D

Sst called, he wants his self-esteem back.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I wondered if you'd bring that up :> I probably should've said 'Lucius Malfoy', but I was going 'Sirius pov' since I was thinking 'what's good for Sirius' ^^;
I do actually think everyone is good for someone-- that is, even Lucius is probably good for someone-- maybe-- well, no. Some people are just so messed up they need mucho therapy before they should be allowed into relationships. Hahah hey I'm not being judgmental if I include me in this, right.
Anyway, I still think Draco's good for Harry, so it's all good :>

Tell SST that SG is holding it ransom ;)

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

I really don't care about "what's good for X", I think anybody would under the right conditions. I just want to read interesting stories. I really dislike calling people "good" or "bad".

I was thinking that this whole problem you are having with Remus, I have it with Harry and this whole dogma that you have to fix Draco to make him a deign to lick his feet. Harry is, after all, a canon martyr.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eh. The right conditions....
Man. Maybe I'm just harder to cohabitate with than most of humanity.... But I'm telling you right now, I can't stand most people under any conditions -.- There is no condition that's good enough with 80% of everyone I know. I just want them away. FAR. FAR. AWAY. :>

That said.
Perhaps people who're not quite as... er... allergic to humanity as I would see it differently. However, I do think that some people/characters are just more limited than others. Like, I think Remus is more limited than Sirius. And oh man... some people are just... well... abusive/insane/violent-- and when I said 'they need therapy' I meant they'd need to change their 'conditions', heh.

Anyway, I thought the argument against N_A!S/R was that it was a hugely dysfunctional relationship-- not that it was boring/not interesting enough. My mistake. Anyway, that was what SM said, I thought.

Eh, I stopped reading H/D partly for that reason-- because I grew sick of thinking about Draco from Harry's pov. It still makes me nauseous to go there. Anyway, I don't know what you mean by 'dogma'. Do you think it's IC? It feels IC to me. Which is what separates it from S/R, for which it's OOC. But with Harry... meh. I'm tired of darkfic, tired of Harry's issues, tired of how little Draco could do. That's just me though... and anyway, most people don't write H/D like that... I think...?

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's necessarily IC that Draco has to be fixed. Especially not if the fixing is in order to upgrade him to Harry's level of sainthood... what level?

Abusive/insane/violent people are my kind of people. I'm not sure I want to write about someone who doesn't have that kind of impulses. This is very personal though - if that wasn't clear. :)

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't think I meant to imply that Draco has to be fixed at all-- I think I was talking about things from Harry's pov & saying I'm sick of it and therefore of reading/thinking about H/D-- that's not an objective statement, that's a statement of personal preference. I never said anything about Harry's sainthood, and I don't know who would, really. Besides, I could say he'll never be evil/badass enough for Harry if I wanted-- that might even be more true.

Also-- while insane/violent people are interesting, we weren't talking about you writing about them-- I was referring specifically to N_A. On top of that, you were saying Sirius should have left Remus-- meaning it's not just your preference, but it would be better for Sirius-- or at least that's how I took it. And while that's a perfectly legitimate preference, it's still not an argument one could use against Remus. Who is, besides everything else, also rather violent and probably verging on insane at times, more repressed than Sirius but that just makes it more dangerous.

Eh. Basically, I was just talking about N_A.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I just read the Sirius Q&A post (http://www.livejournal.com/community/nraged/509779.html), and really, I wouldn't really ship this Sirius with anyone because he's such a caricature of himself :/ And the player internalizes and supports all Remus' moralizing, so the whole characterization is skewed anyway. You can't blame Remus' player for this, basically.

Really, Sirius was played as... I wouldn't say he seems -more- of a bastard than in canon (whatever precise measurement of 'bastard' would be), but rather he just seems to have no control of himself at -all- and to have no qualms about acting out like the most stupid 13 year-old there is.

Anyway, I think Sirius' player said somewhere that they disapproved of the Sirius/Lucius 'thing' more than Remus probably did.

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[malafede.livejournal.com]

I heard Sirius's player changed halfway - but that's gossip, so take it with a grain of salt.

but rather he just seems to have no control of himself at -all- and to have no qualms about acting out like the most stupid 13 year-old there is.

<3333333

I'm hearting this because what's "acting like a stupid 13 year old" is just being healthily capable to have fun w/o being swayed by what society tells you you should be.

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[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Nono, it's not fun when it fucks everything up and it hurts people you love and you do it as a demonstration that you're incapable of caring about any loyalty except to yourself. Actually, most 13 year-olds aren't so bad, I guess. I'm just surmising things from my very limited experience with N_A!Sirius & mostly that Q&A, where all of this was explained by his selfishness. Society tells you to fuck up your closest relationships and ruin people's trust in you for shags with people who mean nothing to you-- just because you're self-destructive and incapable of any restraint?

No, when I say a 13 year-old, that's not at all healthy-- have you had experience with 13 year-old boys in relationships? It's healthy for 13 year-old boys, yeah, but not for 37 year-old boys by any stretch of the imagination-- that's just based on the fact that our relationships with others (and needs, too) are very different after 13. But they're not likely to cheat or lie or anything, they just wouldn't -commit-. And it's one thing to just not commit, and another to

Anyway, that's not really IC for Sirius, who has plenty of focus and dedication, I think. He may be immature, but he's not completely driven by pure selfishness, my god.

What I'm trying to say is-- I'm really offended by that Sirius characterization. He has no-- heart. He's all one giant hormone-- the selfish gene. And that's such a vile caricature of a human being, and to think the player said they -meant- to show that Sirius only cares for himself and how he needed to be punished and how he may not have deserved Remus.... Just. God.