~~ martyr!Remus, grr, argh.

[reenka]

I've only been reading S/R fic intensely for less than a week, and I already have a #1 pet peeve, ahahah. It's not at the must-strangle-someone stage yet by far, but it's... present.

What weirds me out is that there's this trend where fics keep making it that Remus is with Sirius as some sort of favor, because really, Remus knows better and Sirius is such a bastard (...and someone has to mention that at least once-- often Sirius himself). It's like, I wonder why Remus is friends with Sirius, if he really judges him so harshly-- or it really such a huge jump to respect someone enough to be their lover rather than their friend...?

It's like, even when I love a fic, I realize that the Remus cannot realistically be that above it all. Sometimes it's even felt like the whole fic, Sirius basically spent his time apologizing to Remus for who he is (with Remus forgiving him out of his innate-- well, I don't know! hard to tell), and that seems even more dysfunctional than the assholish behavior does. There seems to be a game of 'spot the bastard' going on, and The Bastard is pretty much Sirius. And it's not like with Snapefics, where the assholish behavior is part of the appeal for his partner-- no, Remus doesn't actually enjoy it. At all.

No, Remus is actually kind of... Oppressed, you see. By Sirius' assholish not-really-charming-thank-you behavior. But he tolerates it because... because.....
    See, here's where I get stuck. A lot of fics focus on Sirius boycrushing on Remus and finally realizing that, and it's all intense and everything-- and Remus wants him back, right. But it's not a question of Remus -falling- for Sirius-- or realizing he fancies him back. No, Remus holds back. Remus... basically, Remus doesn't trust Sirius with his heart.

Man. I know I've said the trust issues with this pairing interest me, but. It seems like the holding-back thing is some kind of moral judgment on Sirius, which really bugs me, for it reminds me of Harry's attitude towards Draco in fics, and dude, that's what I was trying to get away from. I mean, the main reason it bugs me so much is that there's no canon reason for it that I can see-- I mean, I can't really see evidence for Remus being the grudge-bearing type-- that's more Sirius' thing, dude.

Moreover, it seems like a nasty case of projection on the writers' part-- like, it's clear favoritism with Remus-- who apparently has little to no real offensive qualities, and is actually a long-suffering martyr. And I don't hate martyr!Harry as much 'cause well, at least that's canon. But. Remus doesn't have to be. So... wah. I thought the point of S/R was that Sirius could get Remus to loosen up-- let go of his reservations and feel. And if Remus spends the whole time basically making Sirius feel sorry about being himself (as far as Sirius is capable of)-- well-- that makes me feel like they're bad for each other. Which kind of... seems to be missing the point, no?

Comments

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Aahahahaha, somehow that doesn't surprise me. O Saint Remus, save me from the evil popular people I hanged with because I liked the attention because they, too, were unique and beautiful snowflakes, just not as unique at me, for I too was an unique and beautiful martyr of the popular pretty people. Deliver me from evil and let us join together with Snape and Harry in martyrdom, forever and ever amen.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, it doesn't really go down like that (...I mean, it's a pet peeve, but it's not a screaming catastrophe, heh).
It's all... much more subtle, obviously, but also... it's not like Sirius ever became a martyr... or even consciously realized that Remus was saying he should repent for who he -was- (I don't think anyone could get away with writing Sirius that unrealistically). I mean, there's the Prank, which Remus only has to avoid Sirius for to make Sirius feel bad.... And it's not like Sirius generally changes his behavior ('cause that'd be majorly OOC, seeing as you're not writing AU), so much as he proclaims-- or someone proclaims-- that he's a bastard. A lot.

He kind of -expects- Remus to forgive him, generally-- he doesn't prostrate himself, exactly. It's just that there's a lot of forgiving to do, and Remus holds back. Like, he'd have a relationship all right-- it's not like he wouldn't touch Sirius unless he met some conditions or whatever-- it's more a matter of Remus giving in. Er. It's hard to explain if you haven't read them, maybe :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

It's hard to explain if you haven't read them, maybe

No, thank you. Between the puppy love and the woobies of destiny, I'm wondering why hasn't the HP fandom brought about world peace yet?

I dislike martyrs because they put the focus on moral hieracy rather than the humanity of the characters. I am really not daying that Remus Lupin is like that or that S/R can't work because of the moral judgments, just that the way certains characters are sold to me in the books (as "good" rather than sympathetic) is why I don't like them. There's such a riff of self-righteous smug propaganda in that. This is why I like unapologetic unromantic characters and pairings like J/S and D/P. But you knew that. Plus, preaching is at his most manipulative and evil when it's subtle. I am feeling the political hate, must go recite mantra.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think the word 'romantic' has been completely redefined somewhere along the way to the point where I don't even know what it means anymore. What's 'unromantic'? Why are unapologetic bastards considered unromantic? They're a romantic staple. Usually you bring them on a journey of self-realization where they become kinder or more reasonable... without taking away their edge. But that's back to 'typical stories' & not the definition of romantic.

I feel there's this disconnect here between meta & actual characters and how they work together. To me, romance has to be about the dynamic entirely confined-- that's what makes it romance-- it's the intensity of the need/love/want between two people, and the lengths they'd be willing to go together. Romance, at base, is 'unwise love'-- not friendship love. Not kinship love. Ridiculous wild love-- and that's not confined to either sweet princes or bastards-- it's just completely outside any sort of politics/group/social dynamics. You can definitely have a bastard & a different-sort-of-bastard (since, honestly, EVERYONE is some kind of bastard) have an unapologetic relationship where they push each other's boundaries and define each other's limits. Like, where they're wild and untamed not just because they always are-- but because that's what they make each other.

It seems this separation between the bastards-- Sirius and James-- and the non-bastards-- what, Remus & Lily?? Bothers me as much as the judgmental thing bothes you. They're all differently-but-equally bastards. All of them have guilt, wildness, need, dependence, independence, fearlessness, fear, rage and love. There is no such thing as good and bad-- yeah-- which is why I don't like pairing the good or the bad-- or any kind of similar character-- together. Because by uniting differences, you show they're not really what you thought they were-- and maybe they're not really there. James & Remus & Sirius-- they're all not that different from eachother, at heart-- all three, I think.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Romantic = idealised.

I think meta-reactions count, as narrative (the act to narrate) is meta in and off itself. :) Harry and Draco are both hardcore bastards, and yet we pair them.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, romantic = idealized, though romance is not the same. But if you're talking about lack of idealization, then it wouldn't be pairing-specific, 'cause anything could be idealized, depending on the writer. If you mean 'cliche', then almost everything is a cliche, just with different degrees of use. I mean, I personally strive for realism, and don't think any pairing or situation prevents it. I like fantasy realism-- and don't think that's a contradiction in terms, because any reality could be described honestly. It seems like romanticism would need actual themes to distinguish itself as a genre, and even then, I don't see how it could exclude certain pairings.

Meta-reactions count, but when they overwhelm the narrative, they create a false surface-- substituting analysis for creation. Though I don't think I was saying they don't and even what the context was anymore.

Anyway, as usual, I think it's pretty obvious there are major gaps between our visions of H/D :>
I don't know if I see either of them as a 'hardcore' bastard--Draco's not even as harsh as Remus. He's just this little boy with canned insults about people's mother. *scoffs* Pathetic. And Harry just lashes out wildly-- not looking to hurt anyone and not really getting off on it, but needing to escape his frustration and resentment at authority or whatever. I mean, Harry's not -nice-, precisely, but I think the 'bastard' thing is just 'cause he's 15, like with his father-- I mean, he's under a lot of stress, and he pretty much snapped. I don't pair him with Draco -because- of that, because to me it's clear he'll get over it just by purging some hormones & killing some Death Eaters.

I mean, I don't -mind- the two bastards together, but I think Draco's really a kitten in disguise (as long as he got what he wanted) and Harry never really had a taste for pain-- thought he tried-- with anyone but Draco, and that's a lot like James & Snape (as I think was the point)-- meaning, once he gets over seeing Draco as a nothing Slytherin scum, the rage will go back into its box, methinks. There has to be another basis for H/D.