(no subject)

[reenka]

I think for the first time, I suddenly really understood how the people who have huge issues with canon feel, being in fandom, though not because I do myself, precisely. (Not that I don't have my own issues with HP canon, but just the sticking around anyway and the whole... feeling a bit alone and somewhat oppressed, haha, etc.)


Yeah, I mean... because I definitely have the same sort of burning issues, except with fandom/fanon instead of canon. It's sort of like fanon itself is a bit like an out-of-tune violin screeching in my ear at this point, it's kind of ridiculous. I mean, and I can't write meta about it either, not the way I could if it was canon, because then it'd feel like a personal attack or like I was saying people couldn't enjoy what they enjoy, etc, whereas it's just that I get this allergic reaction and I want to purge, heh.

Funny, because I love the -idea- of fanon, I love shared worlds, and creativity, and going in absurd directions, so what's happened to me? Why do I see a picture of say, over-the-top cross-dressing!Harry and feel sort of sick because I just... no. I could say I don't want to share Harry anymore, but it's not like he's mine; but somehow it's not about JKR or canon-thumping at all, it's about my ideas and my convictions having become rigid, and I hate that but I can't escape it because fandom's not inspiring me to anymore.

Even fanart, which always made me happy, which I unfailingly adore... even OOCness in fanart is driving me up the wall now, and I suppose that's a sign if nothing else is.

Well, so maybe I still don't fully empathize, because I don't think there's that underlying love people mention that drives me to criticize-- I mean, there is, but it's so... painful, so basically I just avoid rather than dwelling on it. It's just not worth it when 95% of all fanfic and even fanart for my pairing makes me seriously unhappy because I don't recognize the characters, or the dynamic is somehow exactly what I hate, or I refuse to suspend my disbelief because I want-- I need-- things to be better.

So... it's not like I'm announcing that I'm leaving in the sense of 'no more fic from me!', but yeah... I dunno. Do I still want to the Witching Hour? The main reason would be to see people I know and chat about geeky canon stuff without wank, so I guess that's still there. I can't believe I'm even questioning it, really. I was so sure I'd be there, because I loved Nimbus so much, and I loved meeting fandom people and being a total dork every time, it's just so... sad, I guess, because I've really overstayed, overworked my tolerance to the bone.

...Well, enough moping. Back to Basara & sweet manga oblivion!
~~

EDIT - Er... it appears I'm just having moodswings or... something (stress??) 'cause then fishnet!Draco made it all better o_0

BUT IT'S CANON, DON'T YOU SEE :))

...AND THEN AMALIN WROTE ME TOM/HAGRID-- I AM AT PEACE WITH THE WORLD! ♥♥♥ :O

Comments

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, if fandom was made up of people like you (and Amalin, hee), I'd never leave :D :D I suppose, yeah, it's all about being on the same wavelength... having a shared investment, where you really share a vision of canon/fanon rather than merely having an interest in the same characters. That's just not enough for me anymore. And hey, I do like skirt!Harry if it's girl!Harry... I even drew it (http://reenka.expecto-patronum.net/hpics/yourownsize.jpg) once :D

Haha, yeah... I really loved HBP, but then, I also really loved OoTP and saw many possibilities in it-- that's the one thing I disagree with you about, I guess. I guess I don't mean plot-related or world-building related but rather characterization shake-ups. That's what really happened and was so exciting for me-- Harry got all shook up, y'know, which is why I connected on a fanficcy-inspiration more with OoTP than with HBP. With HBP, it's all plot and world-building stuff and gen stuff, which is what canon's for, y'know?

Actually, you really hit upon something when you said that fanon is for when you "have a sort of eternal, arcadian, essentially comic world, where nothing fundamental ever changes". Yes!

And I totally agree with you about most fic being based on books 1-3 canon, with sprinklings of other stuff to keep it current. I did think a lot of post-GoF fics used the warning-Hermione thing & the train-threat thing as catalysts or whatever, and they often used Harry's angst over Cedric to have him be all lost & vulnerable, but they essentially grounded their characterizations in earlier canon, yeah. And as for why, you explained it perfectly, I think-- it's because earlier canon was that eternal, archetypal world that is so easy to slip into, and because romance is basically why most people write fanfic, y'know? I bet pairing-centric fic dominates fandom writing in general by something like 90+% or so. People tend to leave the gennish stuff to canon-- which is why my feeling 'well, now what I'd like is some gen' leaves me less than inspired to write/read fic.

I'm not sure if you're correct about Ron and Hermione being -quite- that boring, ahahah, but yeah, it's not the time for them (which is why I don't really feel the need for that Big Bang rip-off 7th Year R/Hr challenge). You're also right that things have changed fundamentally, which is why I'm less than inspired to read/write fic, especially H/D, 'cause, well-- I liked them the way they were (with all this stuff undefined, basically still children). I wanted to write a coming-of-age story for them, but I wanted full freedom 'cause... I just tend to let canon overwhelm me if I like it, and it's already got a certain direction.

I do still think Harry & Draco need to connect, of course, though I almost feel there's more of that rage and conflict I was addicted to with their dynamic with post-HBP H/S (thought perhaps that's -too much- conflict). I mean, I feel kind of sad H/D won't be the same anymore :( Not that they like each other or anything, but the priorities and issues have just... shifted between them. It's not fun and games (not that it was in OoTP, but it wasn't so... blatant) anymore. Though you're right about the most interesting thing about Snape is seeing how he'd manage to survive, heh, and also character-study stuff to do with his motivations/thoughts, and it's not like I mean I want H/S smut or anything. And I agree about making a partial (but only partial!) exception with H/D-- of course, I can't help myself, so I dunno about defending that judgment :>

I'm fascinated with the idea of using up the material-- that's both scary and inspiring, in a way. I mean, I don't -want- to use it up-- fics that seriously mess with the Wizarding world sort of depress me as a reader-- but it's certainly tempting as a writer.

But 'tired of romance'-- I don't think I am. Only in HP :D

And babbling definitely helps, yeah :D :D I wish I had more opportunities for that :D

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Well, I hope you don't leave, because it would make the place seem more sparsely furnished, and the corridors echo more hollowly. God, you and Aja and Maya -- farewell posts, and POT, and general fanon discontent. You are scaring me, truly. And the thing is, that before HBP I was pretty much there, too -- all meta being bullshit, everything seeming tired and old, all the good smut having been done and read. Which is always an exaggeration, of course, but people get to a point individually where it just doesn't do it for them any more, isn't worth sifting through the muck for random gems.

For me, at least, HBP turned that feeling totally around, it just created all kinds of new possibilities and I, you know, dipped back into meta and I'm wildly eager to see what fics get created. But it has just startled me the way it has made so many really invested people feel totally out of gas, or at least conflicted. Is it because so many H/D fantasies were fulfilled, that the sense of urgency has faded? Or is it just that the sense of irrevocable change ruined the "arcadian" feeling of things?

I really loved HBP, but then, I also really loved OoTP and saw many possibilities in it-- that's the one thing I disagree with you about, I guess. I guess I don't mean plot-related or world-building related but rather characterization shake-ups.

I really wanted to love OOTP and I think I talked myself into believing I did, for a while. But the proof was in the reread, which I could never get through. I think OOTP was one of the most carefully thought-out of the books, despite the infamous sloppy editing and excess length, which I think was only a skin-deep issue; I think it was extremely systematic in the way it treated anger and it sort of left me with a feeling that JKR was more of a careful and thoughtful moralist than maybe was actually the case. And I think you're right that it opened up huge potential for more complicated characterization, even if it didn't offer so much obvious new material or motifs to work with. But (with some individual, wonderful exceptions) I wonder if fandom really took as much advantage of that as it could and should have. On the whole, I think fandom found the book indigestible, which was a shame.

I'm not sure if you're correct about Ron and Hermione being -quite- that boring.

Ha, true, but I let that stand because sometimes debate is advanced by rhetorical excess! But I truly don't think that romance is the interesting issue for these two -- together they are less than the sum of the parts. I think I've said before that PS/SS Ron was a wonderful character -- brave, resourceful, dedicated -- who's had a rough adolesence. He's degenerated into a complacent mediocrity ("Anyone we know?") and it would be a wonderful story to see him shocked back to his full potential, but I don't think Hermione is going to do it. And I was disappointed with HBP!Hermione, who seemed pettier and less interesting once she was cut off from her ambitions for greatness. Ron is not helping to advance her story here, I think.

With Harry and Draco, I love, love, love the fact that they are more equal now. I really had a problem for fanon H/D with the fact that Draco was so diminished in OOTP. There are brilliant fics out there (including Amalin's latest) that have to work with the old set of facts and make Draco at first the object of pity or curiosity, or of lust that's only dangerous because of sexual identity or political issues. This is just totally my own H/D kink, but resigned as I was for a while to bottom!Draco I like an early-UL!style Draco who is strong, and more open to connection and change than Harry because of his extroversion, and potentially more well-rounded than Harry, somebody who can rattle Harry to the core and wake him up emotionally. Harry has a grim strength, but it's the kind of singleminded, overdeveloped, rigid strength that makes for really powerful but fucked-up people who get in everybody's face. I want more for Harry than that, and Draco may be the only person strong enough, and different enough, to give it to him.

See, more babbling! Babbling is good.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I was about to go to sleep after reading this, hahah, but I can't help myself, you mentioned strong!Draco in Maya's sense, who is so something like my ideal Draco-- not that I want fanon, but that I want that sense of 'differently strong' from Harry, YES! *gushes* Oh, I've tried to resign myself to utterly-bottom!Draco too (oh, I've tried! I've written him!), and given, I like him much more than smooth-as-ice-top!Draco (who makes me want to stab out his eyeballs after I kick him in the pants)-- but yes, for him to "rattle Harry to the core and wake him up emotionally". ♥♥

And I know just what you mean about the brittleness of Harry's "grim strength"-- he keeps going because he -has- to, because he -needs- to, and omg "powerful but fucked-up"-- well, yeah, he needs to be held back, balanced, softened by someone he trusts implicitly. I -love- the idea of a Draco who's more open to change and flexible because of extroversion-- I think that's really true of Draco (and, hee! of course! he's a Gemini!). I like to think of Draco as very stubborn and single-minded as well as fluid/adaptable at the same time. He adapts his means to his ends, and is fierce in a totally different way than Harry. Although... I don't think I agree entirely about OoTP necessitating a Draco who's the object of pity (BLEH... I hate Harry pitying Draco... hate) or a mere catalyst for a sexual/identity crisis-- it could be so much more focused on Draco's own impetus to become strong (which is what happened! and it's what I always wanted from OoTP fic), and on Harry's dealing with his dark side, his neediness/possessiveness/rage/grief till he comes out the other side (which -didn't-, in fact, happen in canon or most fanon).

Of course I agree with you that most H/D fics didn't deal with this potential for more "complicated characterization" at all-- but it's what really fired me up about the pairing for 2 years now. And it's not that now it's less complex, but rather... even as Draco's getting closer to being Harry's equal in terms of approaching maturity level and higher competency, I feel like both of them are growing up too fast, also. Not that I want a complete arcadia of eternal youth & carefree playtime by a long-shot, but I guess I wanted more room to maneuver. I feel like it's both a good thing and a bad thing that canon overlapped with my internal H/D-development territory in HBP. I just realized that in the end, I was writing about them as schoolboys, their griefs and resentments and allegiances and rivalries, and not... anything like this murky area of nearly fixed characterization. You realize, this is Harry now. I don't think he'll change that much in book 7. That's reasonable, but scary to me as a fic writer. There's not that sense of dangling threads in terms of characterization, perhaps.

I admit I liked HBP!Hermione because of her newfound vulnerability-- she was always insecure, and now came the crunch point. In OoTP, she was -too- competent, it seemed like. She needed to deal with things, y'know, and I think she did, and in the end the Trio's friendship is rock-solid. I'm not sure how I feel about Ron & his lingering mediocrity-- I think, perhaps, that's just what Ron's own insecurities are still dragging him into, and it's up to -him- (with some help from Harry and Felix Felicis, hehe) to overcome it, probably when it really counts, in book 7. The whole HP arc involved Ron finding his confidence in himself, Harry dealing with his dark side, and Hermione learning she herself possesses values beyond 'books and cleverness' :>

...Perhaps I am too sappy -.-

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

A quick reply, because I'm heading out this afternoon (yes, I just got up, why do you ask?)

The whole HP arc involved Ron finding his confidence in himself, Harry dealing with his dark side, and Hermione learning she herself possesses values beyond 'books and cleverness' :>

A nice summary to carve in stone! If it works out that way, I will be very happy. Not to mention: "and Draco learns that he is as formidable as he ever dreamed, and it doesn't depend on status markers and nasty distinctions." Or something. (*rubs eyes*)

I feel like both of them are growing up too fast, also . . . I just realized that in the end, I was writing about them as schoolboys, their griefs and resentments and allegiances and rivalries, and not... anything like this murky area of nearly fixed characterization . . . There's not that sense of dangling threads in terms of characterization, perhaps.

I honestly don't see quite the sense of limitation that you might, here. I mean, yes, it's not schoolboy issues and slug-belching anymore, but they're only 17 so in a sense it's still schoolboys playing at adult issues, whether they like it or not. "Forced to grow up" -- in the sense that the consequences of their actions are totally disproportionate to their experience, but fortunately (for writers and observers) they are still idiots-in-progress in a sense; they still have plenty to learn about themselves, I think, and plenty to reconsider. Or maybe I am a sappy optimist?

it could be so much more focused on Draco's own impetus to become strong (which is what happened! and it's what I always wanted from OoTP fic), and on Harry's dealing with his dark side, his neediness/possessiveness/rage/grief till he comes out the other side (which -didn't-, in fact, happen in canon or most fanon).

Well, Draco's become strong under duress, and now maybe we can see what he does with his strength when he has more freedom of choice? (Although I guess that depends on what you project about his time on the run in Book 7.)

As for Harry, I totally agree that he hasn't confronted his dark side yet. Yes, this was a mellower Harry, but it was a Harry who was being frantically manipulated by Dumbledore into feeling gratified and mellow. Just because Dumbledore presented himself with a pose of frankness doesn't mean he was any less of the old BS'er. I mean, a personal visit at the Dursleys? Private lessons? "I feel safe -- I am with you??" So after the catastrophe of OOTP Dumbledore chose to work on Harry from another angle, give him what he seemed to desperately need, and hope that it would open him up to some lessons that might take, once he was on his own.

But the proof will still be in Book 7. He'll have to recall Dumbledore's own behavior in persuading himself to put his mission ahead of his emotional reactions, and in deciding how to judge Snape and Draco, for instance. There's still a great story in seeing whether he can do it.

And now, must run, so let us hold hands and dance in a circle about our total agreement on where H/D still needs to go!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh man o_0 I feel myself bending under the weight of your reasonableness and conviction :)) The call of Harry's growing pains is hard to resist, and oh, oh, I hope he has more formative angst in book 7, though perhaps he won't have -time-, and. And. Ohhhh I WANT BOOK 7 NOW :(( Um. I love your vision of Dumbledore manipulating him (perhaps-- though I did really enjoy and admire Dumbly in this book)-- though he did the deciding to be a good boy for Sirius by himself. A "pose of frankness", huh. *clings to hope* Man. All I can say is, I REALLY HOPE SO. And I suppose that's enough to work it into fanfic, though I've still no clue how o_0 o_0 I had such an instinctive understanding of Harry's mental state at the end of OoTP, and nothing like that at the end of HBP. Mer.

With Draco... it's much more complicated for me, because of his much lesser focus on Harry, and their mutual shifting dynamic and relationship with each other. That's what really upset me, as H/D-ish as this book was. In retrospect, I feel like... they're further away from each other than ever, 'cause while Harry was obsessed with Draco's evil-doing, it was a similar mystery-obsession as his fixation on Sirius in PoA or on the Ministry corridor in OoTP. It being Draco gave it a personal stake, a reason to suspect strongly and a sense of outrage, etc, but it... oh, I dunno. I feel like he was approaching it differently, less immaturely??! And Draco definitely was too distracted for Harry in HBP, and that also makes me lose touch with the obsessiveness that's fed my own-- like, in my head, he'd have done all this to get at Harry, but I don't think he did. Like, I dunno to what extent he was even aware of Harry in HBP. :/

I do think both of them are on an important personal journey, I just dunno what I think of them -together- right now, if that makes sense, and what, precisely, they need each other for in the romantic sense. Before, that wasn't really a question I could -ask-, since even though Harry seemed 'beyond' Malfoy in OoTP, that didn't matter, because the strength of Draco's passion was focused on him and that's what drove the whole wagon. Draco practically threw himself at Harry in every book, and HBP, they didn't even have a two-sentence conversation. They were still focussed with each other, but in an impersonal way, if that makes sense-- even when Harry realized Malfoy was human too, it was... it was like partly overcoming his personal bias rather than reforming it into something else, precisely. I dunno.

And I don't like the idea they'll keep changing outside each other's direct influence, that they're... not in orbit anymore. Like, they have v. different development goals, too-- Harry has to become a better hero, in simplistic terms, whereas might be on the way to being an antihero of sorts, someone on the sidelines but with his own agenda, not really like Snape, with his iffy allegiances... more like a private agent. I dunno, it's not like this is a logical reading of canon, it's just my own vision & it's a bit dismal to me :/

I do get what you're saying about them still being 17 and faced with "consequences disproportionate to their experience"-- I mean, separately. But what brings them together? *sigh* But then, in this case, I'm pretty sure I'm being a mopey pessimist :>

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Ha, it seems I have us dancing together prematurely, or at least that I am dancing in a circle by myself, which at least is an amusing spectacle for others! OK then --

[Re: Dumbledore] All I can say is, I REALLY HOPE SO.

OK, we'll let the Dumbledore theory insinuate itself slowly, like water carving a channel in limestone . . .

they're further away from each other than ever, 'cause while Harry was obsessed with Draco's evil-doing, it was a similar mystery-obsession as his fixation on Sirius in PoA or on the Ministry corridor in OoTP. It being Draco gave it a personal stake, a reason to suspect strongly and a sense of outrage, etc, but it... oh, I dunno. I feel like he was approaching it differently, less immaturely??!

I don't know if I totally agree with this take on Harry's side of things. I think it is primarily personal. I made this argument to latxcvi on my own LJ, but look at the opening scenes between the two of them -- the first words he hears Draco speak in HBP are "I'm not a child anymore." And the first thing he notices about Draco is how handsome his new robes are. If this were the introduction of, say, a female character the hero had previously only seen as a child, what would you make of that, exactly? ;)

And the hunt down to Knockturn Alley follows immediately on that epiphany, and it seems eccentric enough to Ron and Hermione -- it's purely Harry's obsession. This happens before Harry has any reason to think that there is a mystery, which I think is significant. He just wants to see what this new Draco is up to. So I think it is personal, it is visceral, for Harry -- somehow the balance of obsession has simply changed over the summer.

And I know I'm veering into slasher psychosis here, but I really do read a genuinely erotic charge to it, throughout the book, filtered of course through suitable mediating plot points. Draco got stunning over the summer, and our hero noticed, in his own charmingly repressed and sociopathic way.

And Draco definitely was too distracted for Harry in HBP, and that also makes me lose touch with the obsessiveness that's fed my own-- like, in my head, he'd have done all this to get at Harry, but I don't think he did. Like, I dunno to what extent he was even aware of Harry in HBP. :/

Yeah, I agree more with this than I do about Harry. I was struck by the way in the train compartment, he ignored Harry's name (in Blaise's report on the Slug Club) and fixed on Longbottom. Although at that point, he might have suspected Harry was hiding in the upper bunk. The one-on-one asskicking Draco gave Harry seemed curiously measured and detatched -- he wanted to do it, but afterwards he was just done with Harry.

So Draco had bigger things on his mind than Harry, I agree. But it's hard to be sure of things because we get so little of Draco's POV. (Classic argument from silence, I know, I know.) Still, Draco was aware of Harry stalking him (and Crabbe and Goyle) to the Room of Requirement. And he certainly noticed Sectumsempra. In fact, I like to think, purely in my own head, that the slashing spell helped get him over his crisis, helped clarify his sense that whatever games Voldemort was playing, Dumbledore's side considered him dead meat. This in turn might have given him the final burst of focus and intensity to get on with his scheme to breach the Hogwarts defenses. At least, I like to think so.

Also, I have trouble believing that old channels and patterns are ever totally erased -- Draco's obsession with Harry might have been pre-empted, but Harry is still a key part of the framework he uses to visualize the war and the sides he is taking and what it all means to him.

[continued . . . ]

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

[. . . continued]

But what brings them together?

Well this, I think, is the glory of where JKR has left Draco, Snape, and Harry at the end of HBP. I really think it's full of possibilities, at a sheer, plot sort of level.

Draco has almost nowhere to go. From the "Draco, run!" scene, I take it that he and Snape are separated at the moment. His only recourse is Snape, though he doesn't know it yet. So an early Book 7 plot issue probably involves getting those two reconnected.

But Snape, if we buy all the meta arguments that were made in July, is on the side of light, so the Snape/Draco connection is going to involve some very subtle implicit negotiations that help Draco understand where his true interests are. I mean, Voldemort is probably going to kill him -- there's nothing there for him. And Dumbledore's offer must have affected him strongly. So under Snape's influence, I see Draco pulled, however reluctantly into the fight against V.

Harry of course is about to launch his quest, possibly with his two bumbling sidekicks in tow. And he'd probably like to kill Snape on sight. But again, what Harry doesn't know -- yet -- is that Snape is on his side. At the same time, he could probably use Snape's intellect to help make his search for the horcruxes more than a random perambulation around England. And Snape, as Dumbledore's former #2 and chief spy, probably knows one or two additional useful things about V that would help the quest as well. So, somewhere in Book 7 (or Book-7!fic), there needs to be a reconciliation and alliance between Harry and Snape. For plot reasons, for thematic reasons, and to continue the arc of Harry's developing sense of people's complexity.

Which in turn, brings Harry and Draco into contact. And if, in any way, they end up working together, they're going to discover ways that they complement each other, brains vs. ferocity or whatever, however reluctant the alliance may be, and however excruciatingly slowly it may develop into something else. And the things Harry won't ever fully understand about Snape, he may come to understand better about a peer.

So what brings Harry and Draco together, on this theory, isn't so much emotional necessity as sheer circumstance, the requirements of plot. But that's OK -- no one can agree how to square the H/D circle in the first place, so why not make it a matter of circumstance, forcing them to work together, forcing them to deal with each other? And then the H/D emotional entanglement, which is a potential that no one is sure how to hatch on its own, emerges from the day-to-day developments of the situation.

I mean, of course, there are a million other ways for it to work out. You could go for cheap tragedy -- Harry slaughters Draco and Snape, just as Draco is about to convert and not realizing that Snape holds the key to his victory. But that only gives you a moment of terrible irony and emotional punch, where on the other model gives you a whole novel's worth of three impossible personalities adjusting to each other under duress. I know which story I'd pick!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I really do love your vision of H/D :D As I said in the original post, I'm just...um... having fannish discontent tied to my overall post-HBP fanon/fanfic crisis and just sort of wanting to read the next book ^^;;; A big part of me is like, well, the stories that can be told will probably be interesting and there are certainly many plausible directions, but I'm not sure I'm the person to write them or read them, y'know? Just like most of the fandom wasn't on board with my vision of post-OoTP H/D, even though the possibilities were there! :>

In terms of Harry:
Harry said nothing; he was thinking too hard. Narcissa Malfoy would not have let her precious son out of her sight willingly; Malfoy must have made a real effort to free himself from her clutches.

Harry, knowing and loathing Malfoy, was sure the reason could not be innocent.

I do think this qualifies as "reason to think there is a mystery", in a detective-style hunch sort of way, which is how Harry thinks, anyway-- by leaps and suspicions and gut feelings rather than deductions or rational causalities. He was already -wanting- to suspect Malfoy, of course he was, but he wasn't acting irrationally, y'know what I mean? Perhaps I'm being too much on Harry's side, here, but I do think he's usually overreacting (as with Snape) rather than coming out of left field entirely. You don't -need- the "stunningly repressed and sociopathic" for an -explanation-, even if it exists as subtext. I dunno why I'm so resistant to subtext, though-- I mean, I do see Harry as fixated on Draco pre-HBP-- ever since he first saw him, really. I think I'm just defending Harry's honor in this case, in that he wasn't just obsessed with Malfoy because he's so gay or whatever ^^;;;

I think it's the same sort of thing I find in a lot of stories where there are strong male relationships, either positive or negative-- I just react, and it seems so important, so... uh... queer, I guess. But I try to separate that reaction from my understanding of the character, or something like that, or everything gets... wonky in terms of making sense.

As for Draco being new as of the Madam Malkin's scene-- I didn't see that, even with his whining about not being a child (actually, that was same old Draco). What could be more classic Draco than,
"Watch where you're sticking that pin, will you!"
&
"If you're wondering what the smell is, Mother, a Mudblood just walked in,"
&
"Don't you dare talk to my mother like that, Potter!" Malfoy snarled.
&
"Yeah, like you'd dare do magic out of school," sneered Malfoy. "Who blacked your eye, Granger? I want to send them flowers."
:D

He's such a silly goof ♥♥ I was like, awwww, Drakey-kins <333333333 But, uh... not seeing the newfound interesting maturity :)) Which he might have shown by refraining to go further than he did on the train, but in that case I like the argument that he doesn't actually feel the impulse to take his violent outbursts on some grander scale-- he made his point, and that was enough, it's not like he's actually... um... a Gryffindor, I guess? He doesn't have that same need to punish/go till he drops/fully humiliate like Harry does ^^;;;

I don't think the old channels & patterns are erased, precisely, just -shifted- in a way that's uncomfortable for me, I guess, since I'm so driven by Draco's obsession :> I think it's an interesting idea that the Sectumsempra drove him to work harder-- it definitely could have! Oh, I loved HBP's frantic, desperate, hard-working (Hufflepuff??!) Draco-- if only it was also focused on Harry, I'd be in high heaven :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

And I think the orientation on resolution through plot rather than that good old "emotional necessity" is why I'm less inspired, 'cause I'm simply not a plot-driven writer~:) I'm fascinated by the plotty extrapolative possibilities, but that's all genfic and stuff for JKR to write best herself to me, y'know? It -does- make me think, Harry needing Snape... that plays quite a few tricks on the post-HBP version of my long-running Death Eater!Draco novella (which I'm trying to work into the Big Bang), 'cause there Draco clearly does not benefit from any sage advice from Snape, and neither does Harry. Then again, my initial point wasn't really to write a canon-extrapolative fic, and as much as it's -possible- to work in HBP canon, I'm really faced with the truth that as a post-HBP fic, it seems to ignore a lot of vital issues. Like Snape and Narcissa and most of Harry's actual development, etc. Oops. -.-

I do think it's likely he needs Snape to help (I love that idea, actually! ...though it sort of works more as H/S in my head, but that's neither here nor there), it's just... yeah, I -still- dunno if I want to -read- this, forget write this :D I love the slow development bit, I just want it to focus on -them- and not on plot, 'cause plot's what canon's for, or something. Or maybe years of thinly-plotted shippy fics have made me less than hopeful for fandom's ability to plot its way out of a paper bag :> Though neither do I wanna see something like Harry slaughtering anyone, forget Draco and Snape :D In my novella, Snape dies in the course of being a Death Eater (I didn't focus too much on it), and it drives Draco further into the Death Eating thing out of desperation and some despair at Harry abandoning him, and... man. You can really tell I charted my course prior to HBP ^^:;

Though Snape probably can't afford to help Harry too obviously, what with Voldy watching him~:)

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I'm really faced with the truth that as a post-HBP fic, it seems to ignore a lot of vital issues. Like Snape and Narcissa and most of Harry's actual development, etc. Oops. -.-

Well, this is a genuine philosophical discontent, no? And I would not presume to glibly talk you out of it, but only to caper in front of you ridiculously, and distract you from it. ;) Or not.

But what I take you to be saying is that you don't trust fandom, and you don't even feel motivated yourself, to address what you see as the most interesting new issues in canon. You don't deny their interest, if I understand you correctly -- you just want to see what JKR has to say about them and don't have anything to add yourself and don't really care what fandom has to say. About Snape and Narcissa, and all the other fascinating developments that don't fall into mainline fanon, etc. etc.

Which strikes me as a coherent position to take, though I honestly haven't reached that point of suspension myself. I'm sure fandom will have many chances to prove that it can't handle post-HBP gen, that it can't escape its ruts. But I will go on being optimistic, I guess, until I can't fool myself anymore, and then I'll go find another way to waste time online. :)

But I really hope you do run with your DE!Draco, maybe for Big Bang. I mean, a fic should do what you want it to do, and if you don't want it to do everything, or if you want it to mourn new canon rather than run with new canon, then go for it. The interest is in the writer's sensibility, not in whether a reader ends up agreeing or not.

Meanwhile, you make some other points which I must not let pass! *begins capering*

I do think this qualifies as "reason to think there is a mystery", in a detective-style hunch sort of way, which is how Harry thinks, anyway

Hmmmm. Biggest shopping day of the year with millions of people in Diagon Alley, Narcissa has been mothering Draco and annoying him in the clothes shop, he's getting irritable and impatient and . . . he slips off to take a walk by himself! How positively sinister! O_o Hee, I just don't buy it. This is not a normal thing for Harry to think. It still requires explanation, and my money's on prior obsession. I mean, Ron and Hermione are the test cases here, and they're all about a good mystery/detective plot, but throughout the book, they're not seeing it; they think Harry's nuts.

I think I'm just defending Harry's honor in this case, in that he wasn't just obsessed with Malfoy because he's so gay or whatever ^^;;;. . . I try to separate that reaction from my understanding of the character, or something like that, or everything gets... wonky in terms of making sense.

Now you are letting me down gently, aren't you? :) Or calming me until the men in white coats come. But you know what? I'm as brutal as anyone at keeping my canon and fanon distinct, but I honestly, truly think that canon!Harry is gay as a summer weekend in P-Town. I mean, he finally found a girlfriend who's a boy and he still doesn't know what to do with her.

All right, you may not buy overtly gay, but there is nothing wrong with positing homoerotic overtones as significant -- not just subtextual -- motivators in a story like this. I mean, whole genres of boarding school stories would be banished if you ruled that out.

And yes, JKR has to be careful, Warner Brothers and all that. But I can't help thinking that what some people call the "obsessive heteronormativity" of HBP is a little joke of JKR's at WB's expense. (Filch/Pince, anyone?) Meanwhile, she's winking at the reader. Yes she is, we've all been all over the examples.

So, OK, overt slash is never going to happen, but there's no reason to be excessively apologetic about the potential homoeroticism of the "real" feelings of "real" characters. If you think about it, it's an almost self-hating form of self-denial, or a secret shame of slashers, to concede that while we may play these dirty games in our own sandbox, nothing of the sort ever crossed our heroes' pure virgin minds. Of course it does! And for some more than others. Like Harry. :))

[continued . . . ]

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

[continued . . . ]

And I think the orientation on resolution through plot rather than that good old "emotional necessity" is why I'm less inspired, 'cause I'm simply not a plot-driven writer~:)

Just one more point then. It's interesting, because in general I think I'm with you on the question of plot. I can't stand the way conspicuous plot devices intrude into otherwise lovely, meandering slices of life. I prefer plot to be either so minimalistic that you barely notice there's any structure at all, or conversely to be so contrived that it is really the whole point of the exercise, like in a detective story.

So when I implied that Harry and Snape and Draco might get together for plot reasons, maybe I wasn't careful enough about my implication. I just think the three of them are set up, right now, to react to each other in unbelievably interesting ways. And I think what you call the emotional compulsion for them to get together, in terms of the balance of their personalities, and the deepest needs of their characters, is so closely parallel to the circumstantial compulsion for them to get together, that it almost doesn't matter which is driving the process. And I don't care about the details of the chemical reaction, so to speak -- the "reactive potentials" are there so you can posit that the reaction will happen. If that makes sense.

I mean, look at the connections -- in this book Harry did the Slytherin thing, taking credit for the Prince's work, tricking Slughorn, basking in Dumbledore's attention as though it was only his entitlement. And Draco did the Gryffindor thing (Hufflepuff, what???), maintaining grace under pressure, and pulling off something truly audacious. They are so more potentially ready to understand each other. And Snape is the catalyst, the mediator . . . but stop me before my metaphor runs wild.

Anyway, like we said. Babbling!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's a "philosophical discontent", hehehe (I like that). Mostly... it's too early yet from new canon, and yeah, I don't trust fandom anymore (that was my overall point). Fandom is what drives me to write fic most of the time, rather than canon (since I'm a passive reader in terms of canon and an active one in fanon), and well-- yeah, I don't trust my fellow writers to somehow deal with HBP or even H/D itself satisfactorily to me because of what I went through after OoTP. I did a lot of serious hoping, and felt a lot of crushing disappointment and resentment. I'd -like- to trust 'fandom', but I'd like to love specific writers even more, and I don't have even 3 favorite new writers currently writing extrapolative H/D fic at the moment, y'know? It's either fanon-fanon-fanon or stuff like `Finer Than Spring', which gets recced mightily as canon-friendly and fascinating in plot terms with the reservation that the H/D in it happens too fast and isn't built-up to seriously. I mean. Jeez.

But regarding my DE!Draco fic-- thanks :D I needed to hear that, I think. I -do- seriously intend on writing it (I've a lot of work and issues of self-respect built into it now), I just... think I was maybe trying to encompass too much, because I -can- work HBP in and I don't know where to stop because this-and-this-and-that is interesting/worthwhile, but I can't simply let this fic balloon beyond what it was intended to do, as you said. That is really helpful :D

I mean, I admitted it wasn't built to take on all of HBP canon, and I should remember that while it could acknowledge it, it can't just totally shift gears and become -about- HBP canon or anything. I have to cut corners where I can't afford to just spend a whole new subplot (oh, I -shudder-) dealing with Snape and restructuring Harry, etc. Try to do the best I can with the fic I've got in my head, and remember this is what it is (a darkfic dealing with Draco's development, self-image, relationship to his father, his future and to Harry), and what it's not is a post-HBP this-is-how-canon-can-easily-go fic.

However, I do acknowledge & admit the possibility that writing fic in itself is what I need to get me into the spirit of post-HBP fic and what to do with new canon. Sort of your basic trial-and-error scenario.


I think it qualifies as 'obsession' in a way because Harry is -so- aware of Draco's habits, what he usually does, how he usually behaves, in a similar way that Draco is of his, I'd bet, and in a way Ron and Hermione simply -aren't-, so they would be lost and confused. His hunch is based on an intimate instinctual understanding of his opponent, someone whom he'd paid a lot of attention to over the years. It wasn't some random boy he saw take a walk without his mother, it was Narcissa, Draco's mum, who "would not have let [him] out of her clutches". I think he just... it's like uh, Batman would have a hunch about the Joker's motives and what he'd think like/act like & where he'd go, etc. Or something. So yes... it's not "normal", but neither is it completely deranged, y'know? Heh.

I do think of "homoerotic overtones as significant"-- definitely. I mean, I wouldn't write it otherwise :D But, y'know, overtones, built on a foundation heavily mixed with... something else to camouflage it with, something that'd stand up to some scrutiny. To follow canon, you'd have to allow a window of interpretation to cast shadows everywhere and a background of heteronormative standard motivations. Or something. It's only when the shadows stand up and start walking outside of fanfic that I see any problem~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I can easily admit Harry's got a queer side (man... that frustrates me, but I've gotta compare him to Ageha in `Basara'-- which I very heartily recommend if you want to see manga that proves its mettle to you, btw, plot and large-scale adventure and slashiness and a somewhat philosophical bent and humor, etcetc-- anyway, the author apparently got asked repeatedly whether Ageha's gay, what with the long hair and the cross-dressing and the dancing and the close hate/devotion relationship to his former owner's son-- and she said he wasn't gay, he's just got a little "gei"-sha in him. I was like, omg, FACEPALM, and then even moreso when there was a flashback to his pre-adolescent years and he actually -kissed- the other boy while he was sleeping, etc.) Okay, that was a total tangent, but the point is-- some characters just walk the line in terms of gender-identifying behavior and attraction patterns and so on, and circumstances seem to define how it's all expressed a little too conveniently, but then that's just life for you, I guess, and I do think sometimes people just never have a chance to get out of the closet in their own minds. That's what's fanfic's for, after all.

I really like your idea about the circumstantial and the emotional compulsions colliding-- that's great :D I do think you can "posit that the reaction will happen"-- definitely. :D Er, that remains out of my reach/scope/natural preference as a writer, though, all these threads coming together, though I admit it's natural and fine for it to happen in that way. If someone could pull it off and tell me, "Reena, here's this story where both the plot -and- the emotional build-up go hand-in-hand, feed each other and are mutual catalysts"-- omg, I'd be in high heaven. Yes please, thank you. Especially if they managed not to have Harry feel pity for Draco, not to have them be too mature (ie, like me and Amalin were saying-- boyish teasing please, kthnx), for it to be intense and conflicted, competitive and difficult rather than made overtly "easier" by some easily-achieved empathy loophole, etc. Like, I totally agree they're more "potentially ready", but I need an HBP-extrapolative fic not to take that for granted, to make them really work for it. Potentials aren't givens-- and I'll be damned if I sit through 108943084 more fics taking them as such.

I love your idea that Harry was more Slytherin than ever & Draco went Gryffindor in HBP-- I was only saying Hufflepuff 'cause I didn't want to go too far, 'cause I do think Draco didn't enjoy the recklessness or feed off it (he made himself nearly physically sick, I think), but rather did it for the sake of something else, like a Hufflepuff would, ahahah. I think he had very limited grace under pressure-- I mean, he did all his breaking down in private, but I dunno if I count that as "grace". Harry had grace-- Draco had compartmentalizing, avoiding, nearly cracking and desperately rushing to the finish while ignoring all possible distractions (like-- there's a contrast about how Harry managed to still have a life in HBP and Draco... didn't seem to). But then I'm always overly tough on Draco. It's such a nice hobby.

And yeay, babbling! :D