(...why no) woe?

[reenka]

You know, it just struck me that I've yet to find a fic or manga that has anything I could term 'bisexual angst'. I mean, there's 'omg, no, I'm gay and I like someone I could never have' angst and there's the regular old 'omg boys/girls drive me INSANE yet I like one, woe!' angst... well, there's a bunch of variants, but. Point being, bisexuals always seem to be portrayed as being free spirits for whom gender doesn't matter-- either in a slutty way or just in a really 'enlightened' way, and that sort of... annoys me, actually. Not least because in my own experience, at least, gender does matter in terms of attraction, even if you like -both-; there's still that intrinsic difference between both and either, right? (Though yes, I realize both are different types of bisexuality; it's just that I see one represented and not the other.)

I mean, sure, everyone knows it's rude and un-PC to perpetuate the bi-slut stereotype, but the whole 'uncommon wisdom' shtick can also seem oppressive, in a way, simply because it doesn't recognize that we -all- have the same kind of identity crises and self-questioning at some point. Yes, even straight white male quarterbackers in the Midwest can question themselves sometimes, I'm sure.

In other words, in fanfic and manga-- and even in general media-- I find that whenever bisexuals aren't -invisible-, they're... kind of dismissive and/or dismissed-- like, oh, they're bi, so that whole angst you-the-pov-character are having doesn't apply.

I mean, I can easily see a character having -more- confusion because wow, they're attracted to -both- and it's easy enough to have -no- clue what you want in that case. What if Harry was bi, and therefore liked -both- Ginny and Draco in 'that' way, for instance?

...I dunno. Maybe that was my rare sudden burst of bisexual angst or... something. :/

Comments

[addictedkitten.livejournal.com]

I am both slutty AND 'enlightened'.

*really no help at all*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*wisely makes no comment* ^^;;;;
♥

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

even if you like -both-; there's still that intrinsic difference between both and either, right?

Well, yeah, but they're both bisexual.

What if Harry was bi, and therefore liked -both- Ginny and Draco in 'that' way, for instance?

Nobody would read it because a) Ginny's a h0r and b) a lot of people read for ships, and want resolution on a single relationship. Oh, and c) that would mean Harry's a twat for leading them both on, and I really don't want to read stories about characters like that. I just don't. People like that are usually total fuckwits who can't tell the difference between sex and love, or manipulative bastards. There's a difference between bisexual angst and stories about unsympathetic characters nobody will read.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I do realize they're both types of bisexual-- though maybe I should've been more thorough & stated that (uh, I'll edit)-- my point was that I see one but not the other type commonly portrayed, and as a representative of the 'other', non-enlightened type, I feel left out. :P Well, I mean, I'm 'enlightened', but. ^^;; *coughs*

Would it be different if I said Draco had feelings for both Harry and Pansy? It doesn't matter who it is, and you're really assuming Harry's stringing them along when he doesn't have to promise or say anything to either of them-- it's all about self-questioning, not acting out either way. You have to think more introvertedly, here~:)) Uh, well, to get what I'm usually getting at, anyway ^^;

As for being a fuckwit-- well, uh, I don't think it's -that- extreme as to be totally unlikeable, though in this instance with you, picking Harry as the example was obviously counterproductive. I think it's your basic love triangle where the person just doesn't know what/who they want-- and while I don't like either love triangle fics or Harry/Ginny/Draco angst in particular, it's a common trope lots of people do go for, which doesn't preclude eventual resolution by any means. I said angst, not tragedy and darkfic and hopelessness. 'Leading them on' is also based on the assumption that we're talking about two simultaneous relationships rather than simply being confused. People are confused without doing a thing about it all the time-- I know I am. Continuously. Story of my life, really.

I just wish every bisexual reference I saw wasn't all 'oh, he/she is bi so gender doesn't matter'. I'm sure that's true for some, but. You know. Not me... and even if I'm a freak, there should be some characters who're like me :P

[spinfrog.livejournal.com]

ummm... what if Harry was bi, liked Ginny and Draco both, and wanted a poly relationship with them, and was trying to be honest and upfront about it? ;)

[wisdomeagle]

Here from metafandom.

I agree with you, really. Just because there should be more fic exploring queer issues, period, and because I often see that gender-doesn't-matter-bisexuality philosophy given to characters whom it doesn't fit... ergh. I'm a lesbian, mostly but not exclusively attracted to female people, with occasional crushes on boys/male people. And I mean... the things I love about female people are very different from the things I have loved about male people? Or rather, I really like girls and like fic that acknowledges that yes, there's something awesome about *girls* (or boys, or whatever), that, well, some elements of gender performance are attractive, whether it's beards or high-heeled shoes or whatever.

:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I guess, yeah-- the whole free-spirit thing doesn't work if it's... not a free spirit, I guess, and even then, it's not really a question of enlightenment, I think. On some level, I dunno if it's -possible- to ignore gender markers for most people who think they do, even (like, I suspect they're lying to themselves). On another level, it's so intuitive to me that we like -certain things- about the people we like, yeah-- they don't even have to be visual, but something like 'I like the way girls smell' is already differentiating.

I haven't thought of it in terms of gender performance, but that's part of it too! I mean, for me it's -everything-, I couldn't pick something specific I like about girls because I like -everything- (smell, look, the way they talk, etc). I think love/attraction by nature is specific-- you like everything but at the same time you love the million little things that obsessive attention shows you. If you -don't care-, then it seems like you don't really like that thing/person. To me, at least~:)

Here via metafandom

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I have a co-written series (started off as a relationship in an RPG and branched out to include backstory and all sorts of stuff) where the main conflict for a great deal of the relationship was that one of the guys is gay and the other thought he was straight, but is actually bisexual. He likes women, a lot, and he wants what het priviledge can give him: a family, no obstacles to his career, normality, etc. The problem is he's in love with his best friend, who's the aforementioned gay guy. He does actually end up getting married, but when his marriage ends, years down the line, he finally realises that yes, he's in love with his best friend (which does not at all change the fact that he was in love with his wife), and now he has to face all the things that come with that, the threat to his career if he's outed, the regret at not being able to have a family the way he always thought he would, etc.

So, not exactly happy-go-lucky bisexual...

Re: Here via metafandom

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heh, I guess what this tells me is that there might actually be more of these kinds of stories out there than I think, but I actually avoid them because I'm such a traditional romantic in some ways and actively avoid triangle stories most times--? Hahaha. Like, I'm more about internal confusion that doesn't actually manifest itself much because of that whole 'rain on the parade' feeling that could come if you're reading about your OTP. Or maybe it's something to do with wanting to have my cake & eat it too-- since sexual identity is one thing and actual polyamory in some form quite another :>

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom.

Interesting post and a really good point.

Although I haven't always done it explicitly I think that every time that I've written a bisexual character I've considered teh angst/confusion at least in terms of backstory. But that's probably because I'm bisexual and have (mostly) moved past my angst about it. (Except for the "OMG I'm in a committed partnership with one person of one gender" i.e. "will I never sleep with a girl again?!" - but that's a different story and one that doesn't easily meld its way into shippy fic.)

I'm actually quite partial to "first time" bisexual stories where the character is just figuring this aspect of themselves out, especially because IMO, if you're queering a canonically straight character that issue has to be dealt with in SOME way.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

So you're saying the people who write 'come one come all, water's fine!' type bisexuals aren't bi themselves--? Heh. Quite likely, probably. Though this (probably) does mostly just apply to teenagers who're still going through that whole self-questioning phase. Now I feel chagrined I didn't make that more clear, since that age-group issue seems so obvious in retrospect-- like, it wouldn't come up in most adult stories unless it's the usual 'omg no, I'm straight and I like a boy!!1'... thing. Which sort of bores me now.

It's rather odd how much slash that I read just makes 'em suddenly gay or doesn't deal with it at all, like "I'm not gay, I just love you". Like, maybe the thing is-- the thing that gave -me- angst is that I always liked both at the same time-- but if a character in a romance fic is in love and in a relationship, he can't be like, 'oh, I like him! but I still like girls, why??!' because that wouldn't be romantic, I guess--? So because of that, most characters just focus totally on that one guy so the bisexual issue is sort of in the past if anything, like if their love interest is bi, and usually it's presented as angst long -long- past, and stated like 'oh, I don't care what gender it is' if explained at all (*grits teeth*). But then, how do you say 'oh yah, I like girls a lot too'--? I guess that just sounds fishy or something.

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

This is interesting... I'm a bisexual, and I've had my share of angsting about it, but I think the angsting has mostly been imposed by others. That is to say, I was relatively convinced that "everyone is more or less bisexual" and people kept telling me that this isn't the case until I was forced to accept it. Also, the "helpful" editorials in teen mags about how sometimes people have feelings for the same sex in their teen years and this doesn't necessarily "mean" anything... not helpful.

So I think in some stories I just skip the angsting part to write the world the way I want it to be. For one thing, my chars are hardly ever same-sex "virgins" the way I write them.

I have had bisexual angst - recent discovery or for some other reason - but I think I may in part be a culprit of this behaviour. And I wonder if it's connected, so that the people who don't see what all the fuss re: gender is about write about worlds where there isn't all this fuss re: gender.

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

I have had bisexual angst

In my stories, I mean. The other implication we've already dealt with. D'oh!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think what I was getting at is that gender-awareness doesn't have to be a -fuss- or an obsession anymore than liking the tartness of green apples and yet also the sweetness of yellow apples is-- like, you may like apples, sure, but don't you like different things about different kinds of apples? At least, that's been my experience. I'd never make a fuss or a big deal about the differences between apples, but my instinctive response is just to take pleasure in different things about them -because- they just-- well, they taste different depending on the kind of apple it is. It's not like it doesn't -matter-. Sometimes I like the sweetness of a yellow apple and sometimes I want something tart. Heh. The angst would just showcase this basic property of desire, I guess.

I've always been intuitively convinced that everyone's more-or-less bi (though then came the Kinsey scale and full sixes and all that)-- but I suppose the lack of -awareness- that one -could- be bi rather than gay or straight could be seen as imposed by others (which is my source of discomfort). Like-- I can never -settle- and that feels unnatural, though maybe that's my own nature, which likes to know things for certain. I can never quite -pick-, you know, and that's kind of distracting. But yeah, hahah the whole popular thing about phases and it being normal to think girls are pretty and such-- just adds to the whole thing. Though I think the whole thing probably does apply the most to virgins and/or teenagers, someone who's inexperienced and only just figuring out who they are.

Though angst aside, the whole attitude of 'both' vs 'either' is still valid (and rarely seen by me).

Re: Here via metafandom

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

I'm writing a story at the moment where all the angst centres on the fact that one of the pairing is bi. The other guy's gay and he's (heh) straightforward enough - he knows he's gay, he knows he hasn't the faintest possibility of fitting in to straight society. But this is the 18th Century, the guy he's in love with loves him back, but *could* fall in love with a woman, society tells him that he should, he stands the chance of being socially ruined or executed for sodomy if he doesn't, and he's a religious man who takes his duty seriously. Equally the gay guy loves him enough to want to see him happy and safe. And yet..they still so want to be together.

*Sigh* it would have been a lot simpler to write if the bi guy had just been all serene and sorted about it :)

Re: Here via metafandom

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't think I meant to say that all bisexual characters are portrayed as mature & serene(?) in general about any personal issues they have, I meant that'd just be ridiculous-- I mean, here we have a lot of societal and personal issues piled on top of orientation confusion. I suppose you could say society is generally responsible for one's identity confusion in some sense, but this sort of forces the issue, you know? If you think of it this way (societal angst), then a lot of slash has this since it involves originally 'straight' characters who then have to deal with 'oh no, I've always liked women and like it that way but now my life has to change drastically'. That change-- when you like a person of the same gender suddenly relatively late in life-- or have pre-existing already formed moral strictures-- the angst is inevitable, I guess, if that makes sense.

I guess one's sense of sexual identity is always tied with one's social awareness and larger identity, and perhaps in the past moreso than these days, when people aren't pressured as much to conform (maybe, in the West). In a modern story, one sort of has a purer conception of what one's preferences are and what that might mean, though there's a popular preconception that bisexuality means not caring about gender, which was what I meant to say. What you described seems more like a journey of self-acceptance and other-acceptance rather than self-awareness and other-awareness, awareness of and attraction to the differences between sexes.

The 'could fall in love' sounds like he feels like he should. A true bisexual just... would, if that makes sense. Though I'm starting to think that this dual attraction is antithetical to shippy fic and there's just no way to fit it into a romantic story-- that is, unless the person's a player or a jerk.

I just wanted to a see a bisexual character that genuinely liked boys and girls not in a 'come one come all' way but a more selective fashion, which would solve the problem of thinking 'but maybe I should pick the other gender' eventually because one's approach to attraction is still individual just like with a straight or gay person. Like, you don't like 'all boys' if you're a gay man, but -that- boy, and it's the same with a bi person. Uh. Maybe I've just lost track of my point, if I had one, though :>

[executrix.livejournal.com]

I don't like angst, and I do like characters who seem to me to be credibly bisexual. Especially since you can have an entirely homosexual three-way but not an entirely heterosexual one...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I guess it doesn't have to be a depressive episode so much as some confusion, if you're talking teenagers especially, which I suppose I should have specified. I guess most adult bisexuals have made some sort of peace with their identity, though-- it would be nice if people (bisexual people in particular) were allowed to realize boys & girls are different (or-- feel different?) without it being wanky or controversial. Though that's more a philosophy than a type of behavior, I guess. :>

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom, and I'm interested in the discussion because I think there does need to be more bisexual visibility in fic, but I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Perhaps it's because I mostly write characters who are secure in their sexuality, but most of the angst (not that I write much really) I write is far more to do with the suitability of a character's object(s) of desire and/or whether the attraction is mutual than anything else.

So I did an AU Fred/Willow in which the angst was about whether it was too soon after the deaths of their respective significant others, and whether they should even be thinking about sex when so many bad things were happening around them rather than the fact that they were attracted to each other in the first place.

Or in my original fiction I have a character trying to deal with the fact that both his male and female objects of attraction are unsuitable for very different reasons, even though both are attracted to him.

Gina

Gina

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I guess I really was unclear-- that was being unusually concise for me, so I guess I should have explained more? Because mostly, I just see lots of bi characters (generally boys) who tend to say things like 'gender doesn't matter, I take 'em all'-- no matter what the rest of the context is. The angsting probably only served to confuse the issue-- I mentioned it because it seemed like the obvious way to counteract the whole slutty enlightenment angle (ie, someone who's repressed & confused). I don't actually -want- to see repressed & confused bi characters, nor do I even write them-- I just want... someone with a reasonable level of confusion, maybe, if they're teenagers just falling in love. I wasn't meaning to say that should be the focus of a fic by any means-- I was only referring to stories where these things were casually mentioned ('oh yeah, he's not gay, he's bi so he takes all comers'), so a shift would be easy to make.

In the end, I suppose if the issue isn't brushed off entirely, like bisexual=enlightened slut (by 'slut' I mean someone who doesn't care -who- they sleep with, someone who sounds totally alien and omnivorous to the extreme), then I'm fine :>

[scruffywesley.livejournal.com]

I think you're right. In fact, bisexuality in fics usually annoys the hell out of me, because it seems so unrealistic.

Bisexuality can be just as difficult to figure out as homosexuality. maybe even more, since you're attracted to both sexes. I was 25 before I finally admitted to myself that I was bi. Because I thought, well, if I can still like boys, then just forget about the girl part. Forget about the odd attraction. And when I was younger, I thought if I liked girls that I must be gay. It was all very confusing, and that confusion is so rarely portrayed in fic.

[couchemal.livejournal.com]

I agree with this. Also there's sometimes pressure from people who think bisexuality doesn't exist, and you should just own up to the fact that you're gay and don't want to admit it.

I've had lots of angst in this area, and in the area of sexuality in general because I can fall in love with either sex but don't want to have sex with either of them, which led me to all kinds of weird conclusions about myself, it was so confusing. I even got therapy. I think I am bisexual asexual, if that makes any sense at all.

So yeah, years and years of angst. of course, I angst about everything so you might take that with a grain of salt.

[spinfrog.livejournal.com]

hmmm... I remember reading a bi-slut fic a while back, where after the war Harry was just sleeping his way through the crouds of boys & girls until he met "the one"... but it was Ron & Hermione who where angsting about it.. :PP

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

There are lots of bi slut fics & characters-- and people, I guess. I usually don't care as long as they're not saying it -doesn't matter- if the person's a boy or a girl... then I get a bit annoyed :>

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

Here via daily_snitch.

What if Harry was bi, and therefore liked -both- Ginny and Draco in 'that' way, for instance?

Well, this is how I'm presently writing Harry!

And unless you can find one of each who are willing to live with a triad, then it's always going to be a case of choosing one or the other gender, at any given moment. So yes, way more confusion and potentially angst, and I think it can show up as either "I'll go with what's available" or "I always want the one that I can't get right now".

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

it's always going to be a case of choosing one or the other gender, at any given moment

Yes! Omg, that's what I was getting at-- why does it seem I've confused so many people?? Woe.

I think it's really that whole constant choosing and re-evaluating and -awareness- of gender (like, there are some days I like mostly boys and some mostly guys and it's just always shifting, I swear). No matter -how- the character deals with it, it doesn't matter to me as long as they seem to deal with it in some way other than 'it doesn't matter, anyone's fine'... though that -sounds- like 'I'll go with what's available', there's a subtle difference because one implies utter indifference to gender and one merely a sort of pragmaticism, I guess, which is different :>

(All of this doesn't even go into the fact that right now, canonically, if you're writing H/D, Harry -has- to like Ginny to... argh.)

[niav.livejournal.com]

Absobloodylutely. I'm bisexual and I get this in real life too, people assuming I'm some pure spirit who doesn't judge on sex.

Hell yes, I judge on sex! I can quite confidently say that I wouldn't fancy Alison Goldfrapp if she was a man. I just wouldn't. I only find those traits that make her her attractive in women. I can't explain why but it's the truth.

How's this: I adore dominant women, but dominant men? Yeah, not so much. I think submissive men are adorable. Submissive women? Well, they don't do it for me.

Please, people. :( I'm as selfish and judgmental as you are.

[gypso-child.livejournal.com]

amen!

[gypso-child.livejournal.com]

Trust me, there is most definately some angst, but I've found - and, yes, this does sound shallow, but it's also true - that (being female) liking boys too, and not just girls, is like a kind of safety net. It's like, instead of freaking out and saying: "Oh my God, I'm gay, I'm a freak," it's more like saying, "Oh my God, I'm bi; well, at least I'm only partly a freak."

I know that sounds horrible, and it's mostly outside pressure that creates views like that. My father, whom I love dearly, has even recommended me not to tell people freely, because he knows I would face bias, and he has actually mentioned "I hope you don't mind, but I have to say that I'm rather happy that you're not completely lesbian, feel free to drool over guys, please." I think that's mostly the want of grandchilren speaking, and I understand.

I know I'm not making a lot of sense, but I guess it's kind of an easier transition, to me at least. Because now instead of having only one or the other option, you in fact have more. It's. Yes, well. Also, there's that whole messy time when you can't help but be terrified you've completely left the het field, and you've gone straight to the other team, and you start scrutinizing everyone to see if they attract you, and wondering if you just think that because you want to feel less different.

Eventually, it calms down, of course, and you just have to embrace it, or else always be plagued by overwhelming doubts and fears.

And also, yes, what I like in men is completely different to what I like in women, most of the time.

Hope that helped some, though now I can't even remember what or why I'm answering. *is sheepish*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, I went through the whole 'I'm only partly a freak' thing too, definitely-- I mean, when I was a teenager, anything that made me less of a freak made me happy. I suppose if you're painfully well-adjusted (as all those bi guy leading characters tend to be, or at least their sexuality issues tend to be kinkier)-- then maybe you don't care if you're a freak. Yeah -.-;;;; That sounds just right, for sure.

Hahaha, it's good to see I'm not alone with the weird messy time, also-- though mine sort of comes and goes sometimes, with relapses. Or amybe my life is just messy--?

A lot of people responded to say they just like writing characters who're confident in their sexuality, and you know, I understand that because -I- certainly don't write most fics focusing on sexual identity crises either. But maybe when you have all this background experience yourself, you (and by 'you' I mean 'me') can't help but feel like characters so often being -so- blase is just... irritating somehow :> Even at the end, I feel like one becomes less blase and more just self-aware, which isn't the same thing as 'I don't care as long as they're hot' and/or 'people are people... ommmmmm'.

Heh. I'm just happy I made sense to you... maybe. *is also sheepish*

[stepps.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying something! It is very true that in general being bi seems to mean that the bisexual are a) exempt from the sexual identity crisis, and b) more accepted and less controvecial/socially challenged than a "real" homosexual.

Both of which are not the case at all. In fact, the confussion of relising attraction to both sexes is, well, hard to figure out. ESPECIALLY if found in the situation of liking two people at once, of different sexes (and perhaps throwing in the added angst bonus of the two people being together, as was my very own 16 year old experience).

And far from being universally acceptable, bisexuals have to suffer the same stigma, prejudice and social trials at gay people. Who to tell? How? What will they think of you? And will you get ridiculed as "going through a faze", "experimenting", being "confussed" and have friends challenge you to pick on side of the proverbial fence and stay there. Fence sitting is not allowed, either you're gay or you're not!

The challenges of being bi are so underrated.

Oh, how I want to get on and write angsty!Harry pining after Draco and Ginny! :D

Late, from metafandom

[my_daroga]

Hi, I know this is an older post, and pretty much everything's been said, but I wanted to thank you for bringing it up. I myself have only recently started "working through" my bisexuality; as a married woman it's a little bit weird to suddenly realize that all that time you liked girls it wasn't the male-dominated media brainwashing me. And yes, I literally thought that my attraction to women was more about the way our society sexualizes them than my own sexuality. Hazards of growing up in a liberal household where it's "okay" to be whatever; due to over-analysis I ended up convinced my confusion was due to outside influences!

But the point is that I haven't found anything, fic or commercial or whatever, that discusses this confusion in a way I relate to. I like coming out narratives, but they only look at the one side. That's useful, but there's another side as well. And it's a niggly, weird little thing to experience. My problems admitting to it weren't about shame, or censure, or anything else; they were about figuring out what I was a product of, and how to reconcile these various urges with myself and my culture.

Is this making sense? In the end, I'm the only person who's in my precise situation, but so are you. I've always planned, one day, to write all this down in a novel that explores confusion like this. Because I can't be the only one. To look at the media, both "underground" and officially sanctioned, however, you might think I was.

Re: Late, from metafandom

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Maybe this really is a product of growing up liberal, where the line between culture and desire is really thin, and there's no great big hoop to jump through in order to take even the first step to 'queer'. Hmm. Also, maybe I should have known better than to expect the more subtle version of this situation being -implied- or implicit rather than the subject of any story, necessarily. Because, well, lots of stories just don't deal with bisexual coming out or any other kind of coming out, and it's not that I'd want them to-- it's only that things seem off in reference, in how they shape what bi characters are there.

Though this makes me wonder if there's somehow more diversity in outlook within the bisexual population than just gay or straight...