(...why no) woe?

[reenka]

You know, it just struck me that I've yet to find a fic or manga that has anything I could term 'bisexual angst'. I mean, there's 'omg, no, I'm gay and I like someone I could never have' angst and there's the regular old 'omg boys/girls drive me INSANE yet I like one, woe!' angst... well, there's a bunch of variants, but. Point being, bisexuals always seem to be portrayed as being free spirits for whom gender doesn't matter-- either in a slutty way or just in a really 'enlightened' way, and that sort of... annoys me, actually. Not least because in my own experience, at least, gender does matter in terms of attraction, even if you like -both-; there's still that intrinsic difference between both and either, right? (Though yes, I realize both are different types of bisexuality; it's just that I see one represented and not the other.)

I mean, sure, everyone knows it's rude and un-PC to perpetuate the bi-slut stereotype, but the whole 'uncommon wisdom' shtick can also seem oppressive, in a way, simply because it doesn't recognize that we -all- have the same kind of identity crises and self-questioning at some point. Yes, even straight white male quarterbackers in the Midwest can question themselves sometimes, I'm sure.

In other words, in fanfic and manga-- and even in general media-- I find that whenever bisexuals aren't -invisible-, they're... kind of dismissive and/or dismissed-- like, oh, they're bi, so that whole angst you-the-pov-character are having doesn't apply.

I mean, I can easily see a character having -more- confusion because wow, they're attracted to -both- and it's easy enough to have -no- clue what you want in that case. What if Harry was bi, and therefore liked -both- Ginny and Draco in 'that' way, for instance?

...I dunno. Maybe that was my rare sudden burst of bisexual angst or... something. :/

Comments

[addictedkitten.livejournal.com]

I am both slutty AND 'enlightened'.

*really no help at all*

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

even if you like -both-; there's still that intrinsic difference between both and either, right?

Well, yeah, but they're both bisexual.

What if Harry was bi, and therefore liked -both- Ginny and Draco in 'that' way, for instance?

Nobody would read it because a) Ginny's a h0r and b) a lot of people read for ships, and want resolution on a single relationship. Oh, and c) that would mean Harry's a twat for leading them both on, and I really don't want to read stories about characters like that. I just don't. People like that are usually total fuckwits who can't tell the difference between sex and love, or manipulative bastards. There's a difference between bisexual angst and stories about unsympathetic characters nobody will read.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*wisely makes no comment* ^^;;;;
♥

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I do realize they're both types of bisexual-- though maybe I should've been more thorough & stated that (uh, I'll edit)-- my point was that I see one but not the other type commonly portrayed, and as a representative of the 'other', non-enlightened type, I feel left out. :P Well, I mean, I'm 'enlightened', but. ^^;; *coughs*

Would it be different if I said Draco had feelings for both Harry and Pansy? It doesn't matter who it is, and you're really assuming Harry's stringing them along when he doesn't have to promise or say anything to either of them-- it's all about self-questioning, not acting out either way. You have to think more introvertedly, here~:)) Uh, well, to get what I'm usually getting at, anyway ^^;

As for being a fuckwit-- well, uh, I don't think it's -that- extreme as to be totally unlikeable, though in this instance with you, picking Harry as the example was obviously counterproductive. I think it's your basic love triangle where the person just doesn't know what/who they want-- and while I don't like either love triangle fics or Harry/Ginny/Draco angst in particular, it's a common trope lots of people do go for, which doesn't preclude eventual resolution by any means. I said angst, not tragedy and darkfic and hopelessness. 'Leading them on' is also based on the assumption that we're talking about two simultaneous relationships rather than simply being confused. People are confused without doing a thing about it all the time-- I know I am. Continuously. Story of my life, really.

I just wish every bisexual reference I saw wasn't all 'oh, he/she is bi so gender doesn't matter'. I'm sure that's true for some, but. You know. Not me... and even if I'm a freak, there should be some characters who're like me :P

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Would it be different if I said Draco had feelings for both Harry and Pansy?

No, because Draco's gayer than a tree full of pink monkeys on Nitrous oxide. HE JUST IS! But seriously, no, not really, because Pansy's a pretty sucktastic character as well. Haha, yes, I am being irrational and biased, but that's the way it works in ficland.

It doesn't matter who it is, and you're really assuming Harry's stringing them along when he doesn't have to promise or say anything to either of them-- it's all about self-questioning, not acting out either way. You have to think more introvertedly, here

"Introvertedly" or "Anal retentive navel-gazeringly"? Still, I think it's stupid, and reflective of someone who can't tell the difference between lust and love. And "being confused" suggests some kind of right outcome whereas you're suggesting that it could go either way and still be correct sexual-orientation-wise.

I just wish every bisexual reference I saw wasn't all 'oh, he/she is bi so gender doesn't matter'. I'm sure that's true for some, but. You know. Not me... and even if I'm a freak, there should be some characters who're like me :P

There are some like you, they're jujst freaks and therefore rarer & harder to find. :P

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heh, well, I guess I was trying to avoid the specific associations that come with examples (...this is why I usually avoid examples), but people seem to -want- examples, but see.... Uh. ^^;;

Okay, honestly, I don't know -how- rare my own attitude is-- I haven't polled that many bi people. It seems natural to like different sexes -because- they're different and those differences are -exciting- and -yummy-. I like boobs in girls and cocks in guys-- it's not like 'wow, I didn't even notice'-- I definitely notice, it -matters-. Like, also re: the Kinsey scale-- people have different degrees of attraction, it's not like everyone who's bisexual is a perfect 5.

So... I think the confusion is like any other triangle-- in the end, something tips it, usually, but it's only the most stereotypical ones where it's just friendship-love vs. sexual-love. There are more subtle things at work that make you want one person but not another sometimes, too. And sometimes you can't help it and like more than one person (it happens!) and circumstances or the other people decide for you.

I don't think it -has- to be extreme navel-gazing just to question your feelings and orientation and so on just because you're bi rather than gay. For me, being bi was really confusing since I couldn't figure out -what- I was for the longest time. It's not something that took a lot of thinking and angsting to arrive at-- the source of confusion reasserted itself every time I was like, 'ooh, pretty girl' and then turned around and went 'oooh, pretty boy!!'. And nothing in the culture around me prepared me to believe that happened to people-- there was only gay or straight in my experience, anyway. So I was pretty confused without having to think too hard. Though far be it from to deny being a freak ^^;

[wisdomeagle]

Here from metafandom.

I agree with you, really. Just because there should be more fic exploring queer issues, period, and because I often see that gender-doesn't-matter-bisexuality philosophy given to characters whom it doesn't fit... ergh. I'm a lesbian, mostly but not exclusively attracted to female people, with occasional crushes on boys/male people. And I mean... the things I love about female people are very different from the things I have loved about male people? Or rather, I really like girls and like fic that acknowledges that yes, there's something awesome about *girls* (or boys, or whatever), that, well, some elements of gender performance are attractive, whether it's beards or high-heeled shoes or whatever.

:)

Here via metafandom

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

I have a co-written series (started off as a relationship in an RPG and branched out to include backstory and all sorts of stuff) where the main conflict for a great deal of the relationship was that one of the guys is gay and the other thought he was straight, but is actually bisexual. He likes women, a lot, and he wants what het priviledge can give him: a family, no obstacles to his career, normality, etc. The problem is he's in love with his best friend, who's the aforementioned gay guy. He does actually end up getting married, but when his marriage ends, years down the line, he finally realises that yes, he's in love with his best friend (which does not at all change the fact that he was in love with his wife), and now he has to face all the things that come with that, the threat to his career if he's outed, the regret at not being able to have a family the way he always thought he would, etc.

So, not exactly happy-go-lucky bisexual...

Re: Here via metafandom

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heh, I guess what this tells me is that there might actually be more of these kinds of stories out there than I think, but I actually avoid them because I'm such a traditional romantic in some ways and actively avoid triangle stories most times--? Hahaha. Like, I'm more about internal confusion that doesn't actually manifest itself much because of that whole 'rain on the parade' feeling that could come if you're reading about your OTP. Or maybe it's something to do with wanting to have my cake & eat it too-- since sexual identity is one thing and actual polyamory in some form quite another :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I guess, yeah-- the whole free-spirit thing doesn't work if it's... not a free spirit, I guess, and even then, it's not really a question of enlightenment, I think. On some level, I dunno if it's -possible- to ignore gender markers for most people who think they do, even (like, I suspect they're lying to themselves). On another level, it's so intuitive to me that we like -certain things- about the people we like, yeah-- they don't even have to be visual, but something like 'I like the way girls smell' is already differentiating.

I haven't thought of it in terms of gender performance, but that's part of it too! I mean, for me it's -everything-, I couldn't pick something specific I like about girls because I like -everything- (smell, look, the way they talk, etc). I think love/attraction by nature is specific-- you like everything but at the same time you love the million little things that obsessive attention shows you. If you -don't care-, then it seems like you don't really like that thing/person. To me, at least~:)

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom.

Interesting post and a really good point.

Although I haven't always done it explicitly I think that every time that I've written a bisexual character I've considered teh angst/confusion at least in terms of backstory. But that's probably because I'm bisexual and have (mostly) moved past my angst about it. (Except for the "OMG I'm in a committed partnership with one person of one gender" i.e. "will I never sleep with a girl again?!" - but that's a different story and one that doesn't easily meld its way into shippy fic.)

I'm actually quite partial to "first time" bisexual stories where the character is just figuring this aspect of themselves out, especially because IMO, if you're queering a canonically straight character that issue has to be dealt with in SOME way.

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

This is interesting... I'm a bisexual, and I've had my share of angsting about it, but I think the angsting has mostly been imposed by others. That is to say, I was relatively convinced that "everyone is more or less bisexual" and people kept telling me that this isn't the case until I was forced to accept it. Also, the "helpful" editorials in teen mags about how sometimes people have feelings for the same sex in their teen years and this doesn't necessarily "mean" anything... not helpful.

So I think in some stories I just skip the angsting part to write the world the way I want it to be. For one thing, my chars are hardly ever same-sex "virgins" the way I write them.

I have had bisexual angst - recent discovery or for some other reason - but I think I may in part be a culprit of this behaviour. And I wonder if it's connected, so that the people who don't see what all the fuss re: gender is about write about worlds where there isn't all this fuss re: gender.

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

I have had bisexual angst

In my stories, I mean. The other implication we've already dealt with. D'oh!

Re: Here via metafandom

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

I'm writing a story at the moment where all the angst centres on the fact that one of the pairing is bi. The other guy's gay and he's (heh) straightforward enough - he knows he's gay, he knows he hasn't the faintest possibility of fitting in to straight society. But this is the 18th Century, the guy he's in love with loves him back, but *could* fall in love with a woman, society tells him that he should, he stands the chance of being socially ruined or executed for sodomy if he doesn't, and he's a religious man who takes his duty seriously. Equally the gay guy loves him enough to want to see him happy and safe. And yet..they still so want to be together.

*Sigh* it would have been a lot simpler to write if the bi guy had just been all serene and sorted about it :)

[executrix.livejournal.com]

I don't like angst, and I do like characters who seem to me to be credibly bisexual. Especially since you can have an entirely homosexual three-way but not an entirely heterosexual one...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I guess it doesn't have to be a depressive episode so much as some confusion, if you're talking teenagers especially, which I suppose I should have specified. I guess most adult bisexuals have made some sort of peace with their identity, though-- it would be nice if people (bisexual people in particular) were allowed to realize boys & girls are different (or-- feel different?) without it being wanky or controversial. Though that's more a philosophy than a type of behavior, I guess. :>

Re: Here via metafandom

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't think I meant to say that all bisexual characters are portrayed as mature & serene(?) in general about any personal issues they have, I meant that'd just be ridiculous-- I mean, here we have a lot of societal and personal issues piled on top of orientation confusion. I suppose you could say society is generally responsible for one's identity confusion in some sense, but this sort of forces the issue, you know? If you think of it this way (societal angst), then a lot of slash has this since it involves originally 'straight' characters who then have to deal with 'oh no, I've always liked women and like it that way but now my life has to change drastically'. That change-- when you like a person of the same gender suddenly relatively late in life-- or have pre-existing already formed moral strictures-- the angst is inevitable, I guess, if that makes sense.

I guess one's sense of sexual identity is always tied with one's social awareness and larger identity, and perhaps in the past moreso than these days, when people aren't pressured as much to conform (maybe, in the West). In a modern story, one sort of has a purer conception of what one's preferences are and what that might mean, though there's a popular preconception that bisexuality means not caring about gender, which was what I meant to say. What you described seems more like a journey of self-acceptance and other-acceptance rather than self-awareness and other-awareness, awareness of and attraction to the differences between sexes.

The 'could fall in love' sounds like he feels like he should. A true bisexual just... would, if that makes sense. Though I'm starting to think that this dual attraction is antithetical to shippy fic and there's just no way to fit it into a romantic story-- that is, unless the person's a player or a jerk.

I just wanted to a see a bisexual character that genuinely liked boys and girls not in a 'come one come all' way but a more selective fashion, which would solve the problem of thinking 'but maybe I should pick the other gender' eventually because one's approach to attraction is still individual just like with a straight or gay person. Like, you don't like 'all boys' if you're a gay man, but -that- boy, and it's the same with a bi person. Uh. Maybe I've just lost track of my point, if I had one, though :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

So you're saying the people who write 'come one come all, water's fine!' type bisexuals aren't bi themselves--? Heh. Quite likely, probably. Though this (probably) does mostly just apply to teenagers who're still going through that whole self-questioning phase. Now I feel chagrined I didn't make that more clear, since that age-group issue seems so obvious in retrospect-- like, it wouldn't come up in most adult stories unless it's the usual 'omg no, I'm straight and I like a boy!!1'... thing. Which sort of bores me now.

It's rather odd how much slash that I read just makes 'em suddenly gay or doesn't deal with it at all, like "I'm not gay, I just love you". Like, maybe the thing is-- the thing that gave -me- angst is that I always liked both at the same time-- but if a character in a romance fic is in love and in a relationship, he can't be like, 'oh, I like him! but I still like girls, why??!' because that wouldn't be romantic, I guess--? So because of that, most characters just focus totally on that one guy so the bisexual issue is sort of in the past if anything, like if their love interest is bi, and usually it's presented as angst long -long- past, and stated like 'oh, I don't care what gender it is' if explained at all (*grits teeth*). But then, how do you say 'oh yah, I like girls a lot too'--? I guess that just sounds fishy or something.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think what I was getting at is that gender-awareness doesn't have to be a -fuss- or an obsession anymore than liking the tartness of green apples and yet also the sweetness of yellow apples is-- like, you may like apples, sure, but don't you like different things about different kinds of apples? At least, that's been my experience. I'd never make a fuss or a big deal about the differences between apples, but my instinctive response is just to take pleasure in different things about them -because- they just-- well, they taste different depending on the kind of apple it is. It's not like it doesn't -matter-. Sometimes I like the sweetness of a yellow apple and sometimes I want something tart. Heh. The angst would just showcase this basic property of desire, I guess.

I've always been intuitively convinced that everyone's more-or-less bi (though then came the Kinsey scale and full sixes and all that)-- but I suppose the lack of -awareness- that one -could- be bi rather than gay or straight could be seen as imposed by others (which is my source of discomfort). Like-- I can never -settle- and that feels unnatural, though maybe that's my own nature, which likes to know things for certain. I can never quite -pick-, you know, and that's kind of distracting. But yeah, hahah the whole popular thing about phases and it being normal to think girls are pretty and such-- just adds to the whole thing. Though I think the whole thing probably does apply the most to virgins and/or teenagers, someone who's inexperienced and only just figuring out who they are.

Though angst aside, the whole attitude of 'both' vs 'either' is still valid (and rarely seen by me).

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

I think what I was getting at is that gender-awareness doesn't have to be a -fuss- or an obsession anymore than liking the tartness of green apples and yet also the sweetness of yellow apples is-- like, you may like apples, sure, but don't you like different things about different kinds of apples?

I think... yes and no. I don't so much like different things in men and women as I like different kinds of men and women. Apart from the penis and vagina thing, almost everything can be seen in both sexes. I also have a mad kink for androgynes, and sometimes the traits of one sex can be sexier in another - like kissing a girl with a bit of a moustache. (Not joking.)

If a character goes out of "type" it can lead to some interesting questions, whether it's gender type or body type or personality type. In one of my stories, Doyle described his "type" as brunet(te)s that were taller than him - though in that particular story, he actually stuck to type! While Gunn in my Birthdayverse stories is still trying to figure out his type and with that his sexuality.

But I've never been that fond of sexuality angsting, really. Even as a kid, while I would read gay stories, I much preferred the "girl-in-drag" stories that had all the sexual complications and (usually) not half the angst about it. (A favourite was Caroline in Maria Gripe's Shadow books, who dressed as a man when she felt like it and shamelessly flirted with everything that came her way. She turned out to be half sister with most of the people she flirted with, too. I'm still not sure what Gripe intended with that twist.)

[pinkdormouse.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom, and I'm interested in the discussion because I think there does need to be more bisexual visibility in fic, but I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Perhaps it's because I mostly write characters who are secure in their sexuality, but most of the angst (not that I write much really) I write is far more to do with the suitability of a character's object(s) of desire and/or whether the attraction is mutual than anything else.

So I did an AU Fred/Willow in which the angst was about whether it was too soon after the deaths of their respective significant others, and whether they should even be thinking about sex when so many bad things were happening around them rather than the fact that they were attracted to each other in the first place.

Or in my original fiction I have a character trying to deal with the fact that both his male and female objects of attraction are unsuitable for very different reasons, even though both are attracted to him.

Gina

Gina

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

So you're saying the people who write 'come one come all, water's fine!' type bisexuals aren't bi themselves--?

I can only really speak for myself and why I do things and I'm willing to admit that my own world view affects the kind of fic that I write. Although I do suspect sometimes when I read bi-fic that is grossly emotionally inaccurate in terms of any type of bisexual I've ever met that the author maybe doesn't have much RL experience with the subject (either personal or knowledge gleaned from people of their acquaintance) but crap, as you say, there are a lot of kinds of bisexuality (or rather sexuality in general).

Ah yes, the old "I'm not gay, I just love you" issue. I do think it depends a whole lot on the fictional context that the person is using, etc. and that it can get awfully awkward if someone's fic is a piece of GLBT propaganda but in modern/contemporary settings, I do think that not dealing with say homophobia or the social ramifications of any kind of queer behavior is ridiculous. And it is weird when you happen upon slash that's kind of homophobic!??!!

Sounds like your "Bi issues" are kinda like my RL bi issues and nope, they generally don't fit well in an idealistic romance plot line. And I do NOT think that having said issues means that we're super slutty (necessarily, heh). I think that lots of people have fears and nerves about commitment. IMO no matter how much you love someone, it's just a fact that monogamy means making choices.

[femmenerd.livejournal.com]

not acknowledging the existence of homophobia is more what I meant.

Re: Here via metafandom

[galadhir.livejournal.com]

I'm not a hundred percent sure that I know what you're getting at, in part (perhaps) because my own identity confusion has been more around the transgender kind of issue - I've always been certain about my sexual orientation, but am still hopelessly confused on my gender (if gender really does have a meaning beyond the body.)

But anyway...
The 'could fall in love' sounds like he feels like he should. A true bisexual just... would, if that makes sense.

Hm, in the case of this character he knows he could fall in love with a woman because he *did* fall in love with one. And in fact left his male lover in order to court her (because of societal pressures which do make him feel like this is the 'correct' thing to do). She didn't like him though, so now he's on the shelf again ;)

I suppose it is a case of late developing angst, because he's only just waking up to the thought that the fact that he's having an affair with his male best friend indicates that he's not actually as straight as he thinks. One of the problems is that he only has an 18th Century set of concepts to use while thinking this through - so there's no way at all he could think to himself 'I'm bisexual', the best he could possibly do would be 'I have sodomitical urges,' which - given that he's managed to remain in denial of the fact throughout an eight year relationship with a bloke, would be quite a step forward for him.

I'm starting to think that this dual attraction is antithetical to shippy fic and there's just no way to fit it into a romantic story

You could do it with an OT3 though.

[scruffywesley.livejournal.com]

I think you're right. In fact, bisexuality in fics usually annoys the hell out of me, because it seems so unrealistic.

Bisexuality can be just as difficult to figure out as homosexuality. maybe even more, since you're attracted to both sexes. I was 25 before I finally admitted to myself that I was bi. Because I thought, well, if I can still like boys, then just forget about the girl part. Forget about the odd attraction. And when I was younger, I thought if I liked girls that I must be gay. It was all very confusing, and that confusion is so rarely portrayed in fic.