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reenka*random paranoia*
wah. being online is a weird business. people talk and make friends and are "in" and there's like these tiny bubbles, like mini-universes, and then there are the Watchers, the Lurkers, who observe. we (they?) don't like to pander to the Lurker's (prurient?) interests, so they lock away their Wisdom and hide their trails of cookie-crumbs.
it boggles the mind, doesn't it?
there are all these brilliant things people are saying, and we can't -see- them, we (the Watchers). will never -know-.
in real life, it's like this too. there are hoards of knowledge and wisdom never discovered, endless amounts of people whose words and art will never reach us. we don't even know who they are. and maybe that's why so many of us live happily, because we never really know each other's true brilliance, since all we tend to say to each other is "hello" and "will you pass the salt".
but on livejournal, i myself kind of -know- who the brilliant ones are. i've read their fic, seen their comments or maybe their public posts. i know if they have something to say, it's likely to be well-informed and in-depth, or at least entertaining. it's the real -life- of the fandom. but it's still hidden, locked away, even what seems to be links to just meta discussion, and this just makes me sad.
by inclination, i just watch. i got to -know- most people just by reading their public lj posts and their publically-posted fiction-- without that fodder, there would -be- no fandom, for me, anyway.
and it's like, they're -too- brilliant, and they must hide away as in monasteries, retire to a hidden black-curtained room where real, honest discussion could take place.
i mean, i understand about making diaries private-- the very -nature- of diaries is to be private, about one's private life and fears and joys and emotions. that's not what i'm talking about.
i'm just a bit frustrated that the sort of vigorous intellectual discussion that i miss -so much- (so much!) in this fandom is of course, also most alive in these hidden channels. i have this feeling like intellectual discourse should be public by nature. there's just something so very... -free- about the exercise of reason itself. something that begs to be shared fearlessly to do justice to what is being said in the first place.
so what am i saying? nothing of use, which is why this is friends-locked. i'm not condemning anyone for anything, not feeling bad that -i- can't see these journals or the meta entries in particular-- i'm feeling bad that the public can't see them. while i have grown to have affection towards a number of you, i still feel like an outsider. i know i am. i'm part of the public in regards to pretty much every clique that exists-- the only difference is that most of the them/you/us would know me by name. "oh, reenka. she talks about meta all the time and i hear she writes cute h/d smut. a tad obsessive, isn't she. seems okay, though."
i just realized that i believe in the essential public value of what i'm doing. not having a fandom journal, not the hp meta, but just this very act of thoughtful public discussion. i feel i'm taking part in something great, by sharing my thoughts with whoever would like to see them-- something new and old and exciting. i don't know. it's like, i -grow-, watching the twists and turns these same concepts take in other's handling. and the more contributors the better, if someone has something to say. these are, at heart, always very large issues (well, in meta-talk, anyway). no one can ever encompass it all at once, so i myself kind of feed off what other people that i respect are saying.
and i suppose i could befriend everyone i respect the intelligence of, but well-- what can i say? i'm asocial, a hermit, shy, a tad paranoid, totally convinced most of Them have little real interest in getting to know me, plus i'm afraid of getting too involved with online friendships again. but the point is, it doesn't have to be about keeping high-level discussion between friends-- it's much more freeing to think of it being out there. and if one is misunderstood, one can -explain-. i don't know.
this is all silly, anyway. i'm just particularly partial to the minds of several people who're -particularly- well-known for being recluses and shy of the limelight and so on. a bit frustrating though.
it's just.... a link to this post said, `WARNING: ACADEMIC-FLAVORED SUPERMETA INTELLIWHINGING AHEAD. YOU HAVE BEEN ADVISED' and. i just kind of whimpered in envy, not because i knew that it'd be brilliant (i don't even know who it is, except whole respecting the linker thing), but just because of the very -possibility- that it was and it wasn't publically accessible upsets me. *laughs* i'm an intelli-communist, what can i say ^^;
EDIT - and okay, it's seri, that makes sense. siiigh. much with the extremely biased selection method here, again. ><
although, wheeeee!! this way i found out seri has her own website now!..!..!!! *swoons*
wah. being online is a weird business. people talk and make friends and are "in" and there's like these tiny bubbles, like mini-universes, and then there are the Watchers, the Lurkers, who observe. we (they?) don't like to pander to the Lurker's (prurient?) interests, so they lock away their Wisdom and hide their trails of cookie-crumbs.
it boggles the mind, doesn't it?
there are all these brilliant things people are saying, and we can't -see- them, we (the Watchers). will never -know-.
in real life, it's like this too. there are hoards of knowledge and wisdom never discovered, endless amounts of people whose words and art will never reach us. we don't even know who they are. and maybe that's why so many of us live happily, because we never really know each other's true brilliance, since all we tend to say to each other is "hello" and "will you pass the salt".
but on livejournal, i myself kind of -know- who the brilliant ones are. i've read their fic, seen their comments or maybe their public posts. i know if they have something to say, it's likely to be well-informed and in-depth, or at least entertaining. it's the real -life- of the fandom. but it's still hidden, locked away, even what seems to be links to just meta discussion, and this just makes me sad.
by inclination, i just watch. i got to -know- most people just by reading their public lj posts and their publically-posted fiction-- without that fodder, there would -be- no fandom, for me, anyway.
and it's like, they're -too- brilliant, and they must hide away as in monasteries, retire to a hidden black-curtained room where real, honest discussion could take place.
i mean, i understand about making diaries private-- the very -nature- of diaries is to be private, about one's private life and fears and joys and emotions. that's not what i'm talking about.
i'm just a bit frustrated that the sort of vigorous intellectual discussion that i miss -so much- (so much!) in this fandom is of course, also most alive in these hidden channels. i have this feeling like intellectual discourse should be public by nature. there's just something so very... -free- about the exercise of reason itself. something that begs to be shared fearlessly to do justice to what is being said in the first place.
so what am i saying? nothing of use, which is why this is friends-locked. i'm not condemning anyone for anything, not feeling bad that -i- can't see these journals or the meta entries in particular-- i'm feeling bad that the public can't see them. while i have grown to have affection towards a number of you, i still feel like an outsider. i know i am. i'm part of the public in regards to pretty much every clique that exists-- the only difference is that most of the them/you/us would know me by name. "oh, reenka. she talks about meta all the time and i hear she writes cute h/d smut. a tad obsessive, isn't she. seems okay, though."
i just realized that i believe in the essential public value of what i'm doing. not having a fandom journal, not the hp meta, but just this very act of thoughtful public discussion. i feel i'm taking part in something great, by sharing my thoughts with whoever would like to see them-- something new and old and exciting. i don't know. it's like, i -grow-, watching the twists and turns these same concepts take in other's handling. and the more contributors the better, if someone has something to say. these are, at heart, always very large issues (well, in meta-talk, anyway). no one can ever encompass it all at once, so i myself kind of feed off what other people that i respect are saying.
and i suppose i could befriend everyone i respect the intelligence of, but well-- what can i say? i'm asocial, a hermit, shy, a tad paranoid, totally convinced most of Them have little real interest in getting to know me, plus i'm afraid of getting too involved with online friendships again. but the point is, it doesn't have to be about keeping high-level discussion between friends-- it's much more freeing to think of it being out there. and if one is misunderstood, one can -explain-. i don't know.
this is all silly, anyway. i'm just particularly partial to the minds of several people who're -particularly- well-known for being recluses and shy of the limelight and so on. a bit frustrating though.
it's just.... a link to this post said, `WARNING: ACADEMIC-FLAVORED SUPERMETA INTELLIWHINGING AHEAD. YOU HAVE BEEN ADVISED' and. i just kind of whimpered in envy, not because i knew that it'd be brilliant (i don't even know who it is, except whole respecting the linker thing), but just because of the very -possibility- that it was and it wasn't publically accessible upsets me. *laughs* i'm an intelli-communist, what can i say ^^;
EDIT - and okay, it's seri, that makes sense. siiigh. much with the extremely biased selection method here, again. ><
although, wheeeee!! this way i found out seri has her own website now!..!..!!! *swoons*
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no subject
Date: 2003-08-22 01:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-22 01:21 pm (UTC)wah. do you think it'd be awfully forward and crass of me to friend her? meep. :/
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Date: 2003-08-22 01:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-08-22 01:33 pm (UTC)*eyebrow twitch*
okay then. hopefully she'd tell me if it bothers her or something, like aspen had initially -.-
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Date: 2003-08-22 02:00 pm (UTC)It got deleted.
I am too discouraged to write it again.
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Date: 2003-08-22 02:09 pm (UTC)er. i always reallyreally hate it when that happens -.-
usually, i rebel against fate and write it again, but then, i remember what i say usually pretty well and can say it more concisely the second time, so i don't really have to re-generate it.
but!
as long as i didn't upset you somehow, it's okay -.-
this was a really lame post anyway. *laughs*
i will try to sum up
Date: 2003-08-22 02:10 pm (UTC)1. Privacy. A lot of people enter fandom, have a public LJ and make public posts, start making friends, some friends become closer, and they eventually realize that most of what they want to say they would like to limit to a smaller group of people. Things become more personal ... and intimacy usually means privacy.
This is why I get angry when people think having a locked journal is inherently elitist. Why is it that by joining fandom I am automatically obligated to share every detail of my life with other people? I view LJ the same way I view email, IM, or phone calls: a way to have a conversation, whether it be with one person, a group of people, or anyone who feels like dropping by. So I will filter the privacy of my entries depending on the privacy of the posts.
(On a related note: what is the point of friending every single person who friends you if you don't actually read what they say? Talk about empty gestures.)
2. You can't have any critical discussion in this fandom without being (a) FW'ed or (b) having the authors who are mostly in this for the ego strokes jump in and attack you. What I view as concrit another person might view as a flame.
(I wrote a much longer version of this point, complete with links and examples of how folks get attacked for trying to have vigorous intellectual discussion of specific fics, but that's the gist of it.)
3. I think most people tend to overestimate the amount of fandom discussion/intelliwankery that goes on behind closed doors. 99.9% of my salazaar entries were about personal topics or the color of Tom Felton's hair. I (and most of my close friends) have been in the fandom for more than a year and a half now, and we don't have the same energy or interest for these discussions anymore.
4. I would suggest emailing Seri, because otherwise she probably won't see your post.
aw man.
Date: 2003-08-22 04:26 pm (UTC)The thing is, there's no way my LJ lives up to the standards you're describing. I'm happy with it, mind you, but someone who idealizes Intellislash might be disappointed. I mean, I stopped writing HP fic ages ago. Mostly I post MS Paint drawings, fanart, and silly webcam shots of my red flipflops; ramble about RL; and alternately goof off/bicker with my friends. I have almost nothing to do with fandom these days, and the friends-only lock on my LJ reflects that. The fact that there are an awful lot of good people here notwithstanding--and Reenka, you have always impressed me as one of the very kindest around--I've seen enough of this fandom to know that it's not a creative or social environment I want to be an active part of anymore. I just want to happily do my own thing, off in a quiet corner. The fandom at large is doing swell without my "brilliance," don't worry. Ehehe.
I don't mean to be an asshole about this, Reenka, truly. But I have only 2 public entries, and one of them says that I probably won't friend most people back. So, that's my fair warning.
The other public post is the "ACADEMIC-FLAVORED SUPERMETA INTELLIWHINGING" one, which I have unlocked since you were curious (and because it's HP-related, so I don't mind sharing). It's just a really short critical essay on the relevance of OotP's blood-quill detention scenes. If you're still interested, you are welcome to read it. :)
hmm...
Date: 2003-08-22 04:31 pm (UTC)so yah, i'm totally for the whole filtering-for-privacy-level thing except that hp-meta doesn't seem very private yet it's filtered anyway. and then people on my -friends- list filter me out from a meta post too and then i -really- pout (wah! i'm not worthy! wah!!). *laughs*
so yeah, i can totally see, like i said, diary-type material being a narrow-range thing, and honestly there's very few fandom people i'm -interested- in the private lives of. if i think about it, there are maybe 5 or 6, at most 10, and they all know who they are and so on. i mean... i prefer diaries to be interesting. i am a very snoopy person, and i think one's emotional life can be made very gripping by a good writer, like sara, aja, cassie claire & cassie for instance-- i mean, there was a long period where i was addicted to online journals like moderngypsy and the like. most people aren't good at it, however.
so i'm still curious about these things and i've grown used to a lot of similar material being public online, but i understand about it being private, and i wouldn't dream of friending most friends-only private-diary journals, and as you can see i've never friended salazaar or a number of other people who'd intrigued me (that is to say, seri & cassie are the only two people whose friends-only journals i've ever friended without an invitation, and cassie's was based on a rec).
secondly, i've seen that said about the fandom before-- that it gets wanked, there's no tolerance, etc.
no one ever wanks -me-, but i guess this is more the high-profile people whose opinions are usually ones i respect more.
sigh.
all i can say is, i don't know how it feels, and it probably feels awful, so i understand, but it's sad and stupid and ridiculous and i hate the idea of self-censorship so much it's not even funny, so yeah. but i can see the reasons.
i understand that most of the locked entries by "them" (this is such a diverse group i don't really know what to call them) aren't fandomy. i do happen to only care because i particularly am intrigued by "them" and what -they- might say about anything. but that's me, and not an issue of publicness, so yeah.
and okay, i'll email seri, then, though i didn't mean this to be directed at her, it was more of a general group appeal thing. and okay, i friends-locked it, being totally hypocritical, but i didn't want random people to feel they needed to give me their 2 cents, which is ridiculous since i never get that many comments, but there you go.
i've never gotten attacked for vigorous discussing fics, and i've been rather hard on a number.
meep. i feel left out now :D
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i just realized that i believe in the essential public value of what i'm doing.
...is something I believe in too, ironically. And I admire you very much for that conviction.
**runs off**
Re: hmm...
Date: 2003-08-22 04:55 pm (UTC)I mean, Bonibaru (acting I assume on the request of Ivy) FW'd me this spring for posting in Olympia's LJ that I don't think people should write about serious subjects like death or incest unless they're willing to really think about them fully. Resorting to cliches because you've chosen a subject that lies outside your emotional range not only tends to produce badfic, but also offends the folks who have actually experienced it.
(The key, of course, is not that you've experienced rape, incest, death, whatever, but that you're able to *imagine* it, in all its complexity.)
This is what I said, and this is what I got attacked for. I've also been FWd for asking people to cut their OOTP spoilers before the book was released. And for saying that I'm not interested in other people's fandoms, because I'm in this for the HP.
Oh, and being FW'd for being an "intellislasher." Which, as you probably know, is a term I hate more than anything.
And that's just recently. Back when I had a public LJ, I got bitchslapped for saying I didn't like Irresistible Poison or DT. Or why did I rec a certain fic and not another one? Or why did I take a certain author off my list of favorite all-time recs?
Or how dare I say ... blah blah blah.
The list goes on and on and on. I felt like I couldn't say *anything* about *any fic* anymore, except for OMG THIS R0X0R.
Other people are entitled to their opinions. But it gets tiring having to deal with people who view every critique as a personal attack. I'm not in this to give indiscriminate ego strokes to high school sophomores. I take writing -- even fanfic -- seriously, and concrit and critical analysis is important to me. I would rather do that in an environment of like-minded folks, rather than risk being called a bitch or flamed every time I try to state my opinion. That's it, really.
That's really cool that you've never been attacked for discussing fics, but unfortunately I don't think that's the norm. :/
meep!
Date: 2003-08-22 05:02 pm (UTC)i wasn't really meaning to say that i think everyone's talking meta all the time behind closed doors, that's sort of silly, and i also know enough to know that's not true (personal lj's are just that, and i really don't make a practice of friending them because of this).
so, um....
well. it's strange, the weird little line between knowing someone enough to like them and yet not knowing them -personally- and yet kind of... knowing you'd like to know more. that's kinda how i am with a lot of people. it's not really about them being "fandom" people, y'know? like, if i like what someone has to say, that means i consider them intelligent and i'd want to read a whole range of things that they'd have to say. i don't consider people to be "fandom people" vs. "non-fandom people", i just consider them people, and if i like them, i just like them.
so... back in the day (heh) i used to visit your lj (and aspen's) as one of the ones that i didn't friend but read anyway, but it wasn't that i liked the -fandomy- aspect, i just kind of... liked it. usually that's how it goes. very few people's journals qualify as the sort of "fandom-discussion journal" i'm looking for, anyway. like,
i wouldn't have friended you for a fantasy of some intelli-slasher haven, trust me. i've read the notices that you've left the fandom, and so on~:) i think i just... since there's no way to skim anymore-- wanted to maybe get to know you better 'cause i liked you before. that's all ^^;
i realize that's not how most other people work-- that there's this division of "fandomy" and "non-fandomy" and people wanting fandom-babble and having fandom-friendships and fandom-lives, but i don't. it's more to do with the person doing the babbling-- and if the babble is intelligent, that reflects on the person, and thus i like them, and so on ><
thus i was wibbly. about friending you, especially without explanation, -knowing- it's not a fandom journal. but even so. er. i meant that to mean i like what i know of you, not that i expect you to be the new intelli-guru or a fandom person~:) *meeps*
Re: hmm...
Date: 2003-08-22 05:20 pm (UTC)and i guess i can see how strong opinions between people who don't have affection between each other to buffer things and smooth the way of understanding can affect how effective the discussion actually -is-. i mean, you can say things to friends more bluntly not because they're mind-readers, necessarily, but because they'll think before they leap, they'll consider where you're coming from as well as where -they're- coming from.
which is sad, because i think this sort of consideration is a hallmark of intelligent discussion of any sort. you have to be able to see others' points if you're going to discuss instead of yell at each other. and i can see how a lot of people are too emotionally charged about fandom (attached to their ideas of what's true-- not like this is the academe or anything) for this to work well. which is why non-academic newsgroups descend into flames too, i guess.
what you said about like-minded folks... i can see that, 'cause i consider you guys (again with the coming up with a group name) to be like-minded and that's why i'm curious in the first place. but "like-minded" doesn't mean i always agree, just that i can see how "you" think-- not the `intelli-slashers' or whatever silly term, it's a more broad "older section of fandom" sort of thing.
for instance, i don't necessarily dislike the DT -or- IP, but i can see why someone would because i have large issues with them, and with most other fics anyone has ever written. trying to think of a major one where i -don't- have things i dislike about it-- um..... well, i'm -really- biased about some fics, you know, so it's hard. like, `brief interval' is nearly perfect in my mind, but it's really been awhile. `in dialogia' is also nearly perfect at what it does, but i'm just the perfect sort of reader for it, too-- same with `brief interval'. i've never actually read good critiques of these, and most other fics i adore (for instance, i've never really read a critical take on silvia's work), actually-- but i'd be curious to.
personally, i have things i like -and- dislike about most things, and can see both sides of these sort of issues, but that's just me~:)
and, incidentally, i agree with you about the need to think through issues, simply because one must -always- think as much as possible, man :D hehehehe :D
Re: meep!
WHAT? WHY THE HELL NOT?? >:O ARE YOU SAYING I AM NOT BRILLIANT ENOUGH TO BE HEAD INTELLI-GURU?
Re: meep!
Date: 2003-08-22 05:22 pm (UTC)the title is yours for the taking, man.
*proffers crown*
i respect the like-minded wallflowers among us, but er... great be the greatness of those who rise to the challenge and carry the torch of brilliance to enlighten the plebey masses >:D
Re: meep!
Again, thank you.
**points to AIM username on infopage** :-*
Re: hmm...
Date: 2003-08-22 05:29 pm (UTC)A lot of people, though, just don't want to hear this. They're not in it for concrit, they're in it for the ego strokes. Which is fine.
But it makes it hard to have a critical discussion, because folks get angry when you say anything negative about their fics. I mean, there are a number of popular authors who dismiss anything I've ever said about their fics as mere elitism and jealousy. Which is pretty fucking annoying. The point is not that I don't like popular fics, 'cos I like plenty of them. The point is that I don't like *their* popular fic, for various specific reasons. Which is different.
Most folks are touchy and defensive and don't want to be publicly critiqued. And that's pretty much it, really. I mean, I remember how scared we all were when we finally dared to say that we didn't like IP back on deadjournal. And when I finally did say this on LJ, a lot of her friends wrote in to tell me how ungrateful I was for everything Rhysenn had done for the fandom! -_-
This is the problem I am talking about. Everyone is entitled to react however they choose; however, I am also entitled to restrict the discussion to people who will understand my critiques in the spirit they were intended.
Re: meep!
*points at info page*
i do -sometimes- show up. and then i wind up talking for hours and not doing anything else and it's scary. livejournal is so much more... contained, somehow. but yeah, anyway ^^;
thank -you- :D you were totally cool about my rampant fangirl behavior. *shame*
*giggles*
*hides*
Re: hmm...
Date: 2003-08-22 05:43 pm (UTC)only like-minded people seem to -care- about anything i say in the first place, which also makes it easier. no one really argues with me much-- well, you did a bit, but no one, really. *sigh* people only post to tell me how they agree mostly. what can i do? *meeps*
maybe i project this vulnerable "any negativity with kill me" sort of front? i dunno.
i should try really attacking some specific flaws of a famous fic in public just as an experiment sometime -.- *laughs* though i'm a bit hesitant to.
it does get rather annoying though, especially when there's a chorus of "oh we -love- it" when you definitely -don't- love it.
i mean, plu's fics on armchair, for instance. everything was fine when i critiqued it, no one jumped me, but no one chimed in to agree with me, either. i mean, i'm -sure- it can't be that everyone loves DiD. and i don't -hate- it, but it feels lonely to be the only one saying anything but "i love it!!1!1!!11", and i'm sure it'd be worse if i got wanked for it, too.
so yeah. no point, really -.-
am ridiculously chatty, though >:D<
abstaining from lj will do that to you >
i think it's the vulnerability!!!!!!
Date: 2003-08-22 05:46 pm (UTC)lol
*wails at fandom paranoia*
I didn't like DiD either ... it wasn't terrible, but I just thought it was fairly pedestrian (and OOC), and so was very surprised to see it pop up on recs pages everywhere. Same thing with Resonant's Transfigurations.
now i want you to do your experiment!!!!!!!
*acts all vulnerable and sensitive*
Date: 2003-08-22 06:28 pm (UTC)i'm tempted to just ...yah. because...well... yeah, it's tempting. but i feel unproductive when i do that. i'm like... too nice for my own good and stuff. *laughs*
but okay. er. yah. i'll wank more... er... i mean... fic-wank ><;;
a bit scared. don't want anyone to like, -get upset-. i hate it when people get upset. it upsets me. *laughs*
could have a disclaimer beforehand:
"I LOVE YOU ALL. NO, REALLY."
hee.
i love it. pedestrian!!! ha!! :D
i so know what you're saying :D :D
it's the ...sensitivity to style (ie, how blunt and unsubtle -is- this fic? most people don't care) that most people seem to lack or not even care about.
although i think that pedestrian -means- it'll get more love. i'm almost certain if i wrote something "simple" it'll get more love-- look at the way my wankfics get attention! that's rather pedestrian!
so yeah. although maya half-way convinced me that -maybe- draco would act all withdrawn if he had a serious injury, and not lash out-- like he just takes it when they hex him into smithereens, for instance, although i think that's a bit of bad characterization on jkr's part, but then he's supposed to be a pansy coward, and so on.
some people just generate more controversy than others, somehow, have you noticed?
some people do whatever the hell they want and they get largely ignored, and then other people fart and it's a fandom phenomenon. large groups of people are hard to make sense of -.-
will attempt to let out my inner bitch more, however >:D
she's certainly there. trust me :D :D
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Date: 2003-08-22 07:07 pm (UTC)And that's why I love the internet! There IS something exciting about exchanging ideas. I tend to be drawn to boards and people who want to get into detailed discussions of ideas and characters. Sometimes I get surprised when I stumble into a more "chatty" place where it's all about "nice-nice" for lack of a better word. I suck in those places--I always come across as mean or something. Because I'm more interested in ideas first, people second. People I "like" on the net are always people who have interesting things to say about whatever topic we're talking about and I go from there.
But then there's the kind of attitude that
I hadn't thought about the FW aspect that sc brought up at first. I wrote something on my lj once, I remember, about being surprised at people called wanky for talking too much about the new PoA pictures and I thought, "But isn't this what fandom is ABOUT?" I realize many people think it's silly that I do like to critique fanfic or children's books in such detail but that's what makes me part of a fandom by definition. Sadly, a lot of good stuff probably gets friends-locked because they worry nobody wants to read it rather than too many people do!
It's the same way about crit for me, btw. One person I really like in LOTR fandom I met because I was literally ranting about one of her fics and then it turned out somebody invited her into this thread where I was doing it. Had I been talking to her I'd have been more diplomatic, but I'd still praised the things I liked etc. To my surprise, she was fine with it, thought (correctly) that my crit showed that I took the thing seriously and it was effective and she appreciated the pov (I was mostly ranting about OOCness). I was surprised because wow--a real writer! She actually cares about her work and wants to make it better. It was very refreshing!
Now, I don't mind arguing with someone who disagrees with my crit but some fics do probably have an army of defenders who aren't helpful, they just tell you you're wrong. After too much of that I can definitely see not wanting to open a discussion to just anybody. There are some big fics I like, some I tried and didn't like. Sometimes it's helpful to talk about what you don't like in a fic--as were your thoughts about DiD. It clarifies your own thoughts.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-22 07:26 pm (UTC)i'm rather sensitive by nature (in terms of taking most things personally), but the difference is, i don't feel -aggressively- sensitive-- as in, i must -lash out- at the things that bother me, instead of analyze them like i did with DiD. sometimes i -do- feel like panning a fic and making fun of it-- if i totally have zero respect for the writer. that happens. but i feel stupid, like i'm wasting time ranting about something so obviously of lesser quality, you know?
there are in fact fics i HATE and any discussion about them is going to be emotional because i just CAN'T STAND them-- just as there are fics i utterly -adore-, though with the ones i adore, i can usually be inspired to even greater heights of passionate analysis. hee. this isn't common, but that's what i do. i don't -rationally- analyze, generally, but i passionately analyze all the time, with say, maya's or aja's fics, because i -feel- them as much as understand them. and i -feel- negatively if what i understand is... antithetical to me somehow. sometimes that happens. like that fic that inspired my "love isn't a weakness" rant. i also had that reaction to the writer's other fic, "ruses". it has a harry that needs "time away" from draco in order to "sort out his feelings" and become his own person. the blunt, unsubtle way it was just -thrown- at me -totally- ruffled my feathers because i just don't believe that at all. i mean, i can dig philosophies i don't agree with, but when they get pushed at me, i feel sick. i do like her writing a lot, but i feel like yelling about it even now. though i restrain myself, usually ^^;
and even if i yelled, it wouldn't be a flame, 'cause i can't help going into detail and explaining myself ad nauseam and so on~:)
there -are- fics i just -hate- and they're not -badfic- exactly, it's just-- i don't know why i even READ them and i don't respect the intelligence of anyone who really loves them. like, `perfect imperfection'. *SHUDDER*
hee. sometimes i get rather personal too, is what i'm saying. we're all human, and i'm just meeker and with a larger tendency to explain myself and be thorough and overly open-minded than most ^^
and, and btw.
this is totally out of thin air, but um.... i'm rather desperate and. um. i thought of you and it seemed to really -make sense-, so. um. i'm writing these sorta-serious post-ootp fics (one h/d, one not really), and i'd wondered if you would... erm... look them over and/or beta them or something... whatever degree you'd be comfortable with, after i'm done.
hee. you could be as mean as you want~:)
Re: hmm...
Date: 2003-08-23 05:27 am (UTC)I hardly ever seriously meta in any fandom, but when I do, it's friends locked. Not necessarily because I don't want to discuss it with anyone outside my group, but because my friends will understand my meta in a way that a random stranger wouldn't.
no subject
Date: 2003-08-23 05:14 pm (UTC)look them over and/or beta them or something... whatever degree you'd be comfortable with, after i'm done. hee. you could be as mean as you want~:)
That's totally flattering! I've never done that before. My only worries are that 1. I'm a terrible proofreader (I am mocked about this at work) and 2. I don't know what feedback is the most helpful to you. But if you give me an idea I'd be glad to give it a go!:-)
Re: hmm...
Date: 2003-08-24 05:26 pm (UTC)yah, i understand the wanting to be understood thing. i definitely get very frustrated because 80% of people (er... even my friends... *WEEPS*) don't get the things i say. *laughs* not the way i mean them. which tends to tell me i'm not good enough at expressing myself. i think a great writer can communicate difficult concepts to dumbos. that is my dream, anyway. you know, they say that about isaac asimov and like, shakespeare, although i dunno how much joe shmoe -understands- shakespeare, i still think he communicated very complex ideas on multiple levels and that one of those levels are understandable by 95% of the populace in some way. or something.
of course it's great to be understood -right-, and i want that for myself, i really really do. so yeah. all i can say is, i hope i can see it when you do meta, because i'm rather curious as to what -you- think in particular and also hope i'm not too dumb. *laughs*
no subject
Date: 2003-08-24 07:22 pm (UTC)yah, more abstract idealistic things as well as horrible awful characterization issues rarely offend people. like... say... i suppose `perfect imperfection' isn't a -bad- fic, per se, if you accept its characterizations. i mean, it's still over-the-top and such, but okay. but NO, HARRY WOULD NEVER BE LIKE THAT, HOW EVIL IS THAT, NO!!!!
hee.
*coughs*
and conversely, i love maya's and silvia's and ivy's stories probably partly 'cause i empathize with the way their characters see the world, those quirky little idealistic things you can surmise. which is why i think i can be friends with my favorite writers, 'cause obviously we have things in common, hehehe. not that i -couldn't- be friends with people whose writing i -don't- like, but it certainly helps to "dig" it on some deeper level.
which is why i'd want you to read my fic. 'cause, like... you understand what i say on that "i dig" level but you always aren't me (which helps! less bias = good!) and you strike me as an intelligent person with a very good grasp of characterization (which i'm most wibbly about, since i can fix my style errors after i come back after a few days. though my regular beta is great with style errors, it's fine, it's not pressing, i can whip myself into shape, too. eventually. maybe.
in other words, i can proofread~:)
i'm a -bit- iffy with commas, but i wouldn't feel bad sending it out to the public and one day rewriting if all i worried about was grammar.
mostly...
does this-that-the-other aspect of the plot make sense? do the actions of the characters make sense? is it fragmented, is it too rambly, do i need to say this/this/or-this, do i need more elaboration here/here/here, should i be more concise here-or-here, do you want more info on -this-, is my draco the suckiest draco that ever lived, is it too much smut, is the smutty bit over-the-top, would they ever do that, does their relationship make sense, does the concept behind the fic make sense, does it have good flow, are my sentences clunky and hard to understand (where?), am i rambling too much, should i have more physical detail or less, should i cut some things entirely, do you find my harry believable, does the fic seem "canon" for a 6-year fic (which is what i'm writing)... and stuff, stuff, stuff~:)
whatever occurs, really~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 02:28 am (UTC)For me, the reason I post largely on a friends only journal is pretty much the same as S. I was tired of being out there in the fandom. I made a very conscious decision to stop posting to weatherby (which I have -- the only posts on here from the past few months have been either public or entirely private), but I have always, always kept a journal. For me, the whole point in keeping a journal is to write a journal, not to feel as though I'm posting publicly to a world of people who don't even know me but have heard I'm an asshole. I'd rather feel comfortable writing in my journal than post entries about coming out to my mother to a reception of people who sling vitriol around the fandom for fun.
However, I do post my entries about canon to a friends only journal as well. This isn't because I'm locking them specifically, though; it's because I simply don't want to be an active member of fandom anymore. It's the case for almost every person I know who posts to a friends only journal. I don't want to be an active member of fandom, but I do, of course, still think about canon.
Anyway. I know this entry wasn't about me, but I felt compelled to comment because I've got a great deal of slack about having a friends only journal (though, I know you're not giving anyone slack here). I originally started commenting to this when you posted it, but got distracted and never finished, and only remembered just now.
Re: meep!
Date: 2003-09-06 02:30 am (UTC)Re: meep!
Date: 2003-09-06 12:01 pm (UTC)i do compulsively check the memories if i look at anything to do with a journal... i dunno what it is... snoopiness or just some sort of respectable desire to get to the good bits >:D
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 12:48 pm (UTC)Which is such a weird thing. I mean, it's inevitable-- at least for me-- to want to -look- at the things that interest me, in a sort of harmless spectating (non-intrusive) manner, but I realize most other people actually have an agenda or preconceptions of some sort. Actually, I have preconcepions too, they're just of the positive sort.
So I guess maybe it was a little about you~:)
But this wouldn't be slack so much as wishfulness. I realize that things are the way they are, I just wish they weren't, because then these people I have such admiration for would be at all accessible. I realize I could just make friends and talk like everyone else, but I'm a freak, I guess. heh.
Anyway, I understand about not wanting to be a member of the fandom. As far as -I- can tell, no one notices what -I- say on any significant scale, so I never worry about being the target of malignant misunderstanding; the one time I can say I was, it was almost enough to get me to hide away. So yes. This is like me wistfully staring at warmly-lit windows as I pass, knowing that kind and interesting people live there, and I can almost see inside, but really I can't and I know I likely never will. Not that I really take it -that- seriously, hehehe.
Re: meep!
Date: 2003-09-06 01:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 01:58 pm (UTC)I think part of the difference is that you see your LJ as a public part of fandom, whereas I don't see any of my posts as relevant to public life whatsoever. I'm not making any great points; just picking things out of canon and getting really excited and wanting to tell someone what I noticed, but if it were real life, I'd tell a friend -- I wouldn't put up a flier in the lounge room of a dormitory. I'm not saying anything important, so I don't feel like I'm keeping any great, untapped resources from anyone. (Though Seri's post was great.)
I also think a lot of people resort to posting friends only because they think only their friends will be interested. I mean, I write drabbles or realy short random things sometimes and post them on my friends-only LJ because I literally never think about them after I've finished and so don't really think of them as a fic to be 'published' in any form. But I know there are a lot of people who would say that people posting fics to small friends list is -- hm, I don't know. Not selfish, that's too nasty a word, but something along that level. Hoarding, maybe? When really, I know that with me at least, I do it because it doesn't occur to me that anyone would be interested.
I know it's not slack, though, and I do get what you're saying and feel bad, haha.
I really like that metaphor, though, and that makes it all the more understandable. It makes me feel like going and unlocking my posts about canon, haha.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 04:08 pm (UTC)I really like the lounge analogy (ahhh, fandom is just one insane little dorm... it really is though). I actually am far from the type to post anything anywhere (although I used to draw stuff like nude girls on my erase-board at my door). Like, I totally don't feel I'm saying anything worthy or important and I don't really get much validation that it is even if I thought so (1-3 people do comment, but they don't really -discuss- ussually). I'd probably pick having 10 friends who generally always picked up on whatever I said than 100 people (as well as the silent "general public") who just watch. Heh.
I started this lj as a place to put links to fanfic since I was overloading my pitas weblog, and then it just got out of hand. Since I never got responses when I -did- write something more personal, I just quit at some point (well, I do have another lj, but it's not secret or friend's locked and just mainly for my non-fannish ficlets and random philosophy that surprisingly isn't related to HP).
On the otherhand, when it comes to -youuu- (and Seri and so on), it is my personal opinion that what you guys have to say is fascinating, so anything I say is clearly grossly biased~:) I know -I- want to see, but what do I know about the "public at large"? Like, it seems that the concept of open writing (that is, not hidden) is different than knowing your audience or speaking to your audience. I mean, "audience" is sort of really hypothetical to me, I just believe that it might exist and what I support is the possibility of someone who could become a friend, who'd understand, and yet I don't know them yet, reading something I have to say. Does that make sense? But -I- just write publically because I don't have anything private to say~:)
SO it's kind of split between a intelli-communist general philosophy but a sort of "wah! but -I- want to know what you think because -I- think you're brilliant" in practice~:) hehehe. Am selfish, unsurprisingly ^^
Also, wheee! Would be uber-gleeful if this inspired you to unlock them, almost as if my whinging-into-the-void had a -purpose- now :))
*bounces*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-06 04:40 pm (UTC)I think another, more selfish, part of the reason I lock things is because when I speculate on parts of canon it's often because I'm intending to write a fic on that topic and I am afraid someone else will get the same idea and finish it first. Which is pretty likely, given that I take months to finish fics, if I finish them at all.
I'm the type of person who didn't want to go to college solely because I didn't want to stay in a dorm. Possibly, this is telling.
One nice thing about friends-only LJs is that I think they do tend to inspire discussion more often. It sucks, probably, but I think aside from the fact that the person posting feels more comfortable, the people commenting also feel comfortable in that they know who can read it and feel more comfortable in the same atmosphere.
That does make sense, and I used to get really excited about having discussions on my LJ with people I didn't know at all, in hopes of becoming friends with them. Unfortunately I don't see that happening with me anymore. I am also pretty reclusive, in that I tend to make friends angry at me because I'm not around enough, including friends on my friends-only LJ, so I'm probably being just as bad to them as anyone who isn't on my friends-only LJ and would want to read it.
I think that you started your LJ to post fic links is a noticeable difference; I had an LJ before LJ got really big in the fandom, and when I did have it then, I was only posting to people I knew personally. When the fandom started getting LJs and adding people it felt so weird I had to delete my LJ and start another one because mine had previously been personal and completely unrelated to fandom. It was very weird for me for awhile to be friended by people I didn't know.
Anyway, these are mine. I'm just unlocking them for you, so I'm not going to, you know, make an advertisement of some sort, but there you are. I can't unlock anyone else's, of course, but feel free to join in conversation, because I could really talk about canon for weeks straight without getting bored. Some of these were actually completely private, because I make a lot of posts private after I have had them up for a bit.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ventricular/11210.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ventricular/11286.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ventricular/15947.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ventricular/12436.html
http://www.livejournal.com/users/ventricular/14576.html