~~ confessions of an intelli-communist. [read: whinging]

[reenka]

*random paranoia*

wah. being online is a weird business. people talk and make friends and are "in" and there's like these tiny bubbles, like mini-universes, and then there are the Watchers, the Lurkers, who observe. we (they?) don't like to pander to the Lurker's (prurient?) interests, so they lock away their Wisdom and hide their trails of cookie-crumbs.

it boggles the mind, doesn't it?

there are all these brilliant things people are saying, and we can't -see- them, we (the Watchers). will never -know-.
    in real life, it's like this too. there are hoards of knowledge and wisdom never discovered, endless amounts of people whose words and art will never reach us. we don't even know who they are. and maybe that's why so many of us live happily, because we never really know each other's true brilliance, since all we tend to say to each other is "hello" and "will you pass the salt".

but on livejournal, i myself kind of -know- who the brilliant ones are. i've read their fic, seen their comments or maybe their public posts. i know if they have something to say, it's likely to be well-informed and in-depth, or at least entertaining. it's the real -life- of the fandom. but it's still hidden, locked away, even what seems to be links to just meta discussion, and this just makes me sad.
    by inclination, i just watch. i got to -know- most people just by reading their public lj posts and their publically-posted fiction-- without that fodder, there would -be- no fandom, for me, anyway.

and it's like, they're -too- brilliant, and they must hide away as in monasteries, retire to a hidden black-curtained room where real, honest discussion could take place.

i mean, i understand about making diaries private-- the very -nature- of diaries is to be private, about one's private life and fears and joys and emotions. that's not what i'm talking about.


i'm just a bit frustrated that the sort of vigorous intellectual discussion that i miss -so much- (so much!) in this fandom is of course, also most alive in these hidden channels. i have this feeling like intellectual discourse should be public by nature. there's just something so very... -free- about the exercise of reason itself. something that begs to be shared fearlessly to do justice to what is being said in the first place.

so what am i saying? nothing of use, which is why this is friends-locked. i'm not condemning anyone for anything, not feeling bad that -i- can't see these journals or the meta entries in particular-- i'm feeling bad that the public can't see them. while i have grown to have affection towards a number of you, i still feel like an outsider. i know i am. i'm part of the public in regards to pretty much every clique that exists-- the only difference is that most of the them/you/us would know me by name. "oh, reenka. she talks about meta all the time and i hear she writes cute h/d smut. a tad obsessive, isn't she. seems okay, though."

i just realized that i believe in the essential public value of what i'm doing. not having a fandom journal, not the hp meta, but just this very act of thoughtful public discussion. i feel i'm taking part in something great, by sharing my thoughts with whoever would like to see them-- something new and old and exciting. i don't know. it's like, i -grow-, watching the twists and turns these same concepts take in other's handling. and the more contributors the better, if someone has something to say. these are, at heart, always very large issues (well, in meta-talk, anyway). no one can ever encompass it all at once, so i myself kind of feed off what other people that i respect are saying.

and i suppose i could befriend everyone i respect the intelligence of, but well-- what can i say? i'm asocial, a hermit, shy, a tad paranoid, totally convinced most of Them have little real interest in getting to know me, plus i'm afraid of getting too involved with online friendships again. but the point is, it doesn't have to be about keeping high-level discussion between friends-- it's much more freeing to think of it being out there. and if one is misunderstood, one can -explain-. i don't know.

this is all silly, anyway. i'm just particularly partial to the minds of several people who're -particularly- well-known for being recluses and shy of the limelight and so on. a bit frustrating though.

it's just.... a link to this post said, `WARNING: ACADEMIC-FLAVORED SUPERMETA INTELLIWHINGING AHEAD. YOU HAVE BEEN ADVISED' and. i just kind of whimpered in envy, not because i knew that it'd be brilliant (i don't even know who it is, except whole respecting the linker thing), but just because of the very -possibility- that it was and it wasn't publically accessible upsets me. *laughs* i'm an intelli-communist, what can i say ^^;
    EDIT - and okay, it's seri, that makes sense. siiigh. much with the extremely biased selection method here, again. ><
    although, wheeeee!! this way i found out seri has her own website now!..!..!!! *swoons*

Comments

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

I just spend half an hour writing you a comment.

It got deleted.

I am too discouraged to write it again.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

meep!
er. i always reallyreally hate it when that happens -.-
usually, i rebel against fate and write it again, but then, i remember what i say usually pretty well and can say it more concisely the second time, so i don't really have to re-generate it.
but!
as long as i didn't upset you somehow, it's okay -.-
this was a really lame post anyway. *laughs*

i will try to sum up

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

A few things

1. Privacy. A lot of people enter fandom, have a public LJ and make public posts, start making friends, some friends become closer, and they eventually realize that most of what they want to say they would like to limit to a smaller group of people. Things become more personal ... and intimacy usually means privacy.

This is why I get angry when people think having a locked journal is inherently elitist. Why is it that by joining fandom I am automatically obligated to share every detail of my life with other people? I view LJ the same way I view email, IM, or phone calls: a way to have a conversation, whether it be with one person, a group of people, or anyone who feels like dropping by. So I will filter the privacy of my entries depending on the privacy of the posts.

(On a related note: what is the point of friending every single person who friends you if you don't actually read what they say? Talk about empty gestures.)

2. You can't have any critical discussion in this fandom without being (a) FW'ed or (b) having the authors who are mostly in this for the ego strokes jump in and attack you. What I view as concrit another person might view as a flame.

(I wrote a much longer version of this point, complete with links and examples of how folks get attacked for trying to have vigorous intellectual discussion of specific fics, but that's the gist of it.)

3. I think most people tend to overestimate the amount of fandom discussion/intelliwankery that goes on behind closed doors. 99.9% of my salazaar entries were about personal topics or the color of Tom Felton's hair. I (and most of my close friends) have been in the fandom for more than a year and a half now, and we don't have the same energy or interest for these discussions anymore.

4. I would suggest emailing Seri, because otherwise she probably won't see your post.

hmm...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

yah, i can see how one can be much more interested in seeing in what your friends think than what everybody thinks. when i post, i too am more curious about what so-and-so thinks than what some random person i don't even know the name of things. this is natural, i think. perhaps i only have the sort of "darnit!" attitude because like i said, i'm not part of any clique, so i've always depended on public entries and stuff, and it so happens that the people whose posts i like the most are largely old-timers and intelli-slashers and so on or in a closed clique of one kind or another. i realize that's just me, and there's a number of people who don't care one way or the other (in a positive "i wanna seeeee <333!" manner, that is). hmm.

so yah, i'm totally for the whole filtering-for-privacy-level thing except that hp-meta doesn't seem very private yet it's filtered anyway. and then people on my -friends- list filter me out from a meta post too and then i -really- pout (wah! i'm not worthy! wah!!). *laughs*
so yeah, i can totally see, like i said, diary-type material being a narrow-range thing, and honestly there's very few fandom people i'm -interested- in the private lives of. if i think about it, there are maybe 5 or 6, at most 10, and they all know who they are and so on. i mean... i prefer diaries to be interesting. i am a very snoopy person, and i think one's emotional life can be made very gripping by a good writer, like sara, aja, cassie claire & cassie for instance-- i mean, there was a long period where i was addicted to online journals like moderngypsy and the like. most people aren't good at it, however.
so i'm still curious about these things and i've grown used to a lot of similar material being public online, but i understand about it being private, and i wouldn't dream of friending most friends-only private-diary journals, and as you can see i've never friended salazaar or a number of other people who'd intrigued me (that is to say, seri & cassie are the only two people whose friends-only journals i've ever friended without an invitation, and cassie's was based on a rec).

secondly, i've seen that said about the fandom before-- that it gets wanked, there's no tolerance, etc.
no one ever wanks -me-, but i guess this is more the high-profile people whose opinions are usually ones i respect more.
sigh.
all i can say is, i don't know how it feels, and it probably feels awful, so i understand, but it's sad and stupid and ridiculous and i hate the idea of self-censorship so much it's not even funny, so yeah. but i can see the reasons.

i understand that most of the locked entries by "them" (this is such a diverse group i don't really know what to call them) aren't fandomy. i do happen to only care because i particularly am intrigued by "them" and what -they- might say about anything. but that's me, and not an issue of publicness, so yeah.

and okay, i'll email seri, then, though i didn't mean this to be directed at her, it was more of a general group appeal thing. and okay, i friends-locked it, being totally hypocritical, but i didn't want random people to feel they needed to give me their 2 cents, which is ridiculous since i never get that many comments, but there you go.
i've never gotten attacked for vigorous discussing fics, and i've been rather hard on a number.
meep. i feel left out now :D

Re: hmm...

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

For me, it wasn't so much only being interested in what my friends think, but being attacked so often for stating my opinion. (My original comment went into this in more detail.) It got to the point where I felt my every post was a minefield, because people's egos are so touchy that someone would always react negatively. Actually, I still see this happening in fandom, all the time.

I mean, Bonibaru (acting I assume on the request of Ivy) FW'd me this spring for posting in Olympia's LJ that I don't think people should write about serious subjects like death or incest unless they're willing to really think about them fully. Resorting to cliches because you've chosen a subject that lies outside your emotional range not only tends to produce badfic, but also offends the folks who have actually experienced it.

(The key, of course, is not that you've experienced rape, incest, death, whatever, but that you're able to *imagine* it, in all its complexity.)

This is what I said, and this is what I got attacked for. I've also been FWd for asking people to cut their OOTP spoilers before the book was released. And for saying that I'm not interested in other people's fandoms, because I'm in this for the HP.

Oh, and being FW'd for being an "intellislasher." Which, as you probably know, is a term I hate more than anything.

And that's just recently. Back when I had a public LJ, I got bitchslapped for saying I didn't like Irresistible Poison or DT. Or why did I rec a certain fic and not another one? Or why did I take a certain author off my list of favorite all-time recs?
Or how dare I say ... blah blah blah.

The list goes on and on and on. I felt like I couldn't say *anything* about *any fic* anymore, except for OMG THIS R0X0R.

Other people are entitled to their opinions. But it gets tiring having to deal with people who view every critique as a personal attack. I'm not in this to give indiscriminate ego strokes to high school sophomores. I take writing -- even fanfic -- seriously, and concrit and critical analysis is important to me. I would rather do that in an environment of like-minded folks, rather than risk being called a bitch or flamed every time I try to state my opinion. That's it, really.

That's really cool that you've never been attacked for discussing fics, but unfortunately I don't think that's the norm. :/

Re: hmm...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

meep. yeah, i don't know if it's the norm so much as it's the norm for certain high-profile people to be wanked by either other high-profile people or by lurkers who watch without thinking. wanking is a totally ridiculous concept, too-- like, so 3rd-grade, isn't it? and everyone is so sensitive when it comes to -their- feelings, so you'd think we'd be more sensitive when it comes to -others- feelings, but i guess that is the way of humanity in general. empathy and reasonableness seems difficult to consistently generate in text-based or fully public mediums, i realize this. so the people who thrive the best tend to be the thick-skinned, snarky ones with the teeth or the -reeeeally- timid, "iloveyouall" types like me. not that i'm -like- that (plenty of people/things/fics -royally- annoy me) but i'd never -attack- anyone, which is the difference between having a temper and using it as a blunt weapon, i guess.

and i guess i can see how strong opinions between people who don't have affection between each other to buffer things and smooth the way of understanding can affect how effective the discussion actually -is-. i mean, you can say things to friends more bluntly not because they're mind-readers, necessarily, but because they'll think before they leap, they'll consider where you're coming from as well as where -they're- coming from.

which is sad, because i think this sort of consideration is a hallmark of intelligent discussion of any sort. you have to be able to see others' points if you're going to discuss instead of yell at each other. and i can see how a lot of people are too emotionally charged about fandom (attached to their ideas of what's true-- not like this is the academe or anything) for this to work well. which is why non-academic newsgroups descend into flames too, i guess.

what you said about like-minded folks... i can see that, 'cause i consider you guys (again with the coming up with a group name) to be like-minded and that's why i'm curious in the first place. but "like-minded" doesn't mean i always agree, just that i can see how "you" think-- not the `intelli-slashers' or whatever silly term, it's a more broad "older section of fandom" sort of thing.

for instance, i don't necessarily dislike the DT -or- IP, but i can see why someone would because i have large issues with them, and with most other fics anyone has ever written. trying to think of a major one where i -don't- have things i dislike about it-- um..... well, i'm -really- biased about some fics, you know, so it's hard. like, `brief interval' is nearly perfect in my mind, but it's really been awhile. `in dialogia' is also nearly perfect at what it does, but i'm just the perfect sort of reader for it, too-- same with `brief interval'. i've never actually read good critiques of these, and most other fics i adore (for instance, i've never really read a critical take on silvia's work), actually-- but i'd be curious to.

personally, i have things i like -and- dislike about most things, and can see both sides of these sort of issues, but that's just me~:)
and, incidentally, i agree with you about the need to think through issues, simply because one must -always- think as much as possible, man :D hehehehe :D

Re: hmm...

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

The problem, I think, is that I come from an academic setting, where there's an automatic expectation of collegiality. Which means that you can be very, very critical of someone's work and still remain on good terms with them. How is anybody supposed to learn and grow as a writer if people don't take the time to write thoughtful, substantive feedback? Argh.

A lot of people, though, just don't want to hear this. They're not in it for concrit, they're in it for the ego strokes. Which is fine.

But it makes it hard to have a critical discussion, because folks get angry when you say anything negative about their fics. I mean, there are a number of popular authors who dismiss anything I've ever said about their fics as mere elitism and jealousy. Which is pretty fucking annoying. The point is not that I don't like popular fics, 'cos I like plenty of them. The point is that I don't like *their* popular fic, for various specific reasons. Which is different.

Most folks are touchy and defensive and don't want to be publicly critiqued. And that's pretty much it, really. I mean, I remember how scared we all were when we finally dared to say that we didn't like IP back on deadjournal. And when I finally did say this on LJ, a lot of her friends wrote in to tell me how ungrateful I was for everything Rhysenn had done for the fandom! -_-

This is the problem I am talking about. Everyone is entitled to react however they choose; however, I am also entitled to restrict the discussion to people who will understand my critiques in the spirit they were intended.

Re: hmm...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

eep. i can totally see where you're coming from. it would be very disheartening if this happened to me (which it didn't), but then i -do- mostly generalize my issues. like, if i think, "OMG THIS FIC TOTALLY BUTCHERED DRACO", instead of talking about -that fic- i talk about the wrongness of -that kind of portrayal- and characterization of draco (for instance) and why it doesn't work for me. as long as you don't name names, everything seems to be fine, but the same issues get discussed, you know? at least, that's -my- trick >:D<

only like-minded people seem to -care- about anything i say in the first place, which also makes it easier. no one really argues with me much-- well, you did a bit, but no one, really. *sigh* people only post to tell me how they agree mostly. what can i do? *meeps*

maybe i project this vulnerable "any negativity with kill me" sort of front? i dunno.

i should try really attacking some specific flaws of a famous fic in public just as an experiment sometime -.- *laughs* though i'm a bit hesitant to.

it does get rather annoying though, especially when there's a chorus of "oh we -love- it" when you definitely -don't- love it.
i mean, plu's fics on armchair, for instance. everything was fine when i critiqued it, no one jumped me, but no one chimed in to agree with me, either. i mean, i'm -sure- it can't be that everyone loves DiD. and i don't -hate- it, but it feels lonely to be the only one saying anything but "i love it!!1!1!!11", and i'm sure it'd be worse if i got wanked for it, too.

so yeah. no point, really -.-
am ridiculously chatty, though >:D<
abstaining from lj will do that to you >

i think it's the vulnerability!!!!!!

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

If you don't mention names, then *everyone* assumes your critique is about THEM.

lol

*wails at fandom paranoia*

I didn't like DiD either ... it wasn't terrible, but I just thought it was fairly pedestrian (and OOC), and so was very surprised to see it pop up on recs pages everywhere. Same thing with Resonant's Transfigurations.

now i want you to do your experiment!!!!!!!

*acts all vulnerable and sensitive*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heee. but dude, ivy & aja have vulnerable personalities too, and they get wanked a lot.... maybe it's that this gets overriden by being a bnf? :-?

i'm tempted to just ...yah. because...well... yeah, it's tempting. but i feel unproductive when i do that. i'm like... too nice for my own good and stuff. *laughs*

but okay. er. yah. i'll wank more... er... i mean... fic-wank ><;;
a bit scared. don't want anyone to like, -get upset-. i hate it when people get upset. it upsets me. *laughs*

could have a disclaimer beforehand:
"I LOVE YOU ALL. NO, REALLY."

hee.
i love it. pedestrian!!! ha!! :D
i so know what you're saying :D :D
it's the ...sensitivity to style (ie, how blunt and unsubtle -is- this fic? most people don't care) that most people seem to lack or not even care about.

although i think that pedestrian -means- it'll get more love. i'm almost certain if i wrote something "simple" it'll get more love-- look at the way my wankfics get attention! that's rather pedestrian!
so yeah. although maya half-way convinced me that -maybe- draco would act all withdrawn if he had a serious injury, and not lash out-- like he just takes it when they hex him into smithereens, for instance, although i think that's a bit of bad characterization on jkr's part, but then he's supposed to be a pansy coward, and so on.

some people just generate more controversy than others, somehow, have you noticed?
some people do whatever the hell they want and they get largely ignored, and then other people fart and it's a fandom phenomenon. large groups of people are hard to make sense of -.-

will attempt to let out my inner bitch more, however >:D
she's certainly there. trust me :D :D

Re: hmm...

[eleveninches.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree with Slytherlynx here. Some people don't understand that disliking someone's fanfic doesn't mean you dislike the person, or that you may hate whatever pairing for whatever reason, and yada yada yada. Sad, but true.

I hardly ever seriously meta in any fandom, but when I do, it's friends locked. Not necessarily because I don't want to discuss it with anyone outside my group, but because my friends will understand my meta in a way that a random stranger wouldn't.

Re: hmm...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*meeps*
yah, i understand the wanting to be understood thing. i definitely get very frustrated because 80% of people (er... even my friends... *WEEPS*) don't get the things i say. *laughs* not the way i mean them. which tends to tell me i'm not good enough at expressing myself. i think a great writer can communicate difficult concepts to dumbos. that is my dream, anyway. you know, they say that about isaac asimov and like, shakespeare, although i dunno how much joe shmoe -understands- shakespeare, i still think he communicated very complex ideas on multiple levels and that one of those levels are understandable by 95% of the populace in some way. or something.

of course it's great to be understood -right-, and i want that for myself, i really really do. so yeah. all i can say is, i hope i can see it when you do meta, because i'm rather curious as to what -you- think in particular and also hope i'm not too dumb. *laughs*