~~ wank.

[reenka]

I have a very strange confession to make. I just need to get it off my chest so I never have to writhe in silent nameless discomfort ever again. Yeah, right.

Squeeing, 100%-positive and yet not really -descriptive- rave recs/reviews of fics make me cringe. No, I lie. I hate them. I REALLY HATE THEM A LOT. RAAAAGE. (Ok, no.)
    EDIT - to clarify: by "review" I don't mean feedback, I mean it in the "movie review" sense.

Not only that, they make me violently dislike both the reviewer and the fic, even if I -adore- the fic in question. I have to really bite my lip and repeat to myself "I love this fic, I -love- this fic, remember I -love- this fic!" so that I don't just write an anti-rec right back detailing all the flaws I can possibly think of (there are always some! Jeez!). I realize this is easily seen as hypocritical, considering how excited I get over fics. Still, I could -swear- I've never given what I'd consider pat compliments: Oh, this is great, genius, wonderful, beautiful, amazing. I've never called anyone "extremely talented" or even talented. I've never raved about how worthy someone/something is of their popularity or thought any fic -should- be popular as a sign of its greatness. Of course, I'm sort of elitist and snobbish like that :>

I've never guarranteed anyone would have to like a fic. That just -really- pisses me off. How could anyone assume -any- piece of writing is soooo great, -everyone- has to love it? My god, what arrogance! Not only that, it just feels like advertising to me. I hate advertising, in case that isn't clear. I hate it with all the passion of a thousand burning hells. Nothing rubs me the wrong way like a rave review that could easily apply to -any- fic out of hundreds. Saying only nondescript, gushy things about a truly good, visceral piece of writing just... deadens it.

I actually can't stand reading most positive reviews, though I'm almost always highly entertained by negative ones (they're usually funny, at least). The words one uses in response should contain some tiny spark of inspiration, something that is reminiscent of the fic, otherwise the review is pointless because it doesn't actually -say- anything and all I get is "propaganda-propaganda-propaganda-propaganda". And as should be painfully obvious, I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally despise propaganda quite, quite a lot.

So I'm in this weird place where I'm semi-known for recs and reviews and yet I have very little respect for the practice of reccing & reviewing itself as is commonly practiced. In fact, 98% of all blurbs & mini-reviews and such annoy the living daylights out of me, especially if they're of fics I adore. First of all, if you act as if a fic is -perfect-, it takes away from its actual humanity, from its real worth. It's like, you're not using your brain, so why should I believe a word you say in response, and does that mean -I'm- not using my brain in loving it, too?

If I had time, I'd post a mini-list of all my favorite fics and say only critical things of them to show how much I love them. If one doesn't -think- or express one's feelings in any sort of creative manner, one is just a parrot, someone who likes the shiny thing without really being capable of seeing its true beauty. I think to an extent, the readers help define the fic-- that is to say, if brainless zombies like a fic, you wonder how good can it possibly be. On the other hand, if eloquent, thoughtful people like the fic, one feels the worth of the fic itself is thus elevated.

Because of this, I realized I have a creed-- a set of ethics as a reviewer:

    - Never use hyperbole-- say how it affects you in the most direct yet descriptive way possible; pretend you're talking to a skeptic if it helps. Said skeptic will laugh every time you use more than one adjective per sentence.
    - Never project your own response onto others-- confine yourself to detailing your own thoughts, leave others to form their own opinions; separate your kinks from those of others and keep it in mind when describing the merits of a fic.
    - Never push a fic onto others as if it's a drug-- separate your own excitement and your actual full response to the work.
    - Objectivity isn't just for dinner anymore: try it, it works! Don't do the writer or the work the disservice of pretending they've attained perfection: there is no need to be negative, but please refrain from overindulging in the "bestseller syndrome", where mass hysteria passes for literary worth. Treat the writer as "a writer", and the work as "a work", as best you can.

*wankwankwankwank*

Comments

Re: idea!

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

*laughs and laughs at the reference to That One Fic We Both Hate*

Hahahaha. Irony of ironies. Ever since I basically flamed the fic "Empty Chairs at Empty Tables" to a crisp the other day after somebody on my friends list praised it to the skies, I have been wanting to do one of those "so, don't you really wish you could say what you *really* think about so many of the fics that get all the love?" posts. I would have, in fact, polled everybody about it today had I not gotten distracted with writing other things. It *is* incredibly cathartic to just be able to vent about the authors and fics we all can't stand--and yes, it is SO INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING to see everybody reccing fics that I can't stand.

Maybe I will make a post about this on lieblich or something tomorrow, and fully vent my spleen. :)) *rubs hands and plots*

Re: idea!

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Yes, Aja, VENTING BEHIND LOCKED POSTS WORKED SO WELL LAST TIME!

;)

Go ahead and vent, but given how [deleted] snarked at me when I tried to talk about Transfigurations in lieblich, I'll have to pass. :/

Re: idea!

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

*snorts up the very pink beverage she has been drinking, with interesting results*

Hahahahahahaha.

I can guarantee you, with 100% certainty, that [deleted] has better things to do than snark at you at the moment. If she even notices the post she'll be too busy/distracted/preoccupied to snark. :D Pleeeeease join me in snarking? Since [deleted #2] will not be participating I will have to snark alone and that will not be any fun. You and Reena and I can all vent together. Pleeeeeease? *bats eyes*

Re: idea!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*cries, unvented & alone*

unvented's not even a word, is it :>

also, i'm getting this feeling like i shouldn't read `transfigurations', though i probably will just to make up my own mind. though. *snorts* i think resonant actually is really good about con-crit, though i could be wrong :-?

Re: idea!

[lieblich.livejournal.com]

cry, no more, lady, cry no more.

</ shakespeare rip-off >

Re: idea!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*swoons away dramatically*

*spams own lj*

Re: idea!

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Well, see, the problem is that with the exception of the fics you recced -- whose names I no longer remember -- I haven't been really feelin' the rageahol about fics lately. Or maybe it's just that I don't really keep up with the H/D bit of the fandom any more (with the exception of you and Sara and Reena and a couple of others), so I am missing all these horrible-yet-widely-recced fics.

Or maybe my standards are just low.

*sighs*
*tries to work up snarkiness*
*fails miserably*
*wonders who the hell [deleted #2] is*

Re: ~~ wank.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

fair enough. :D

and if you don't know who [deleted #2] is, that's a good sign, since it means i'm clearly not as obsessive about it as i've been painted.

Re: idea!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

isn't there something almost -more- awful about hating the reccing of a fic you -love- because of how it's being presented? ><
maybe that's just me. *laughs*

although it happens to me all the time. brilliant authors deserve brilliant reviews. on the other hand, if someone's stupid enough to like a stupid fic, that just means people are stupid squared, which is nothing new~:)
that's why it's always puzzled me why people -hate- popular badfic moreso because it's popular than because it's badfic. i mean, i hate `perfect imperfection' completely on its own merits. my hate is pure and unsillied :D

it must be different when this natural love-or-hate relationship gets all mixed up with paranoia (like, if i say -this- They Will Come After Me). I mean, it's not a -crime- to have some things just... not work for you, is it. of course, when the masses of fans ally themselves one way or the other, it ceases to be about fic at -all- and starts being about hype. which just sucks sweaty donkey balls, to quote my happy d&d-playing friend.

also, i'm all jealous of your other lj now~:)

Re: idea!

[lieblich.livejournal.com]

that's why it's always puzzled me why people -hate- popular badfic moreso because it's popular

well, i can honestly say that i HATE Just This because, were it merely a bad fic, I could mock it and enjoy the mockery; but because it is a popular fic, because it's a beloved fic, even, it has basically to me becomes a mockery of all the really magnificent fics out there that *deserve* to be well-loved. (I could say the same thing about R. but I am too chicken even to spell the name out here lest I be lynched.)

of course, when the masses of fans ally themselves one way or the other, it ceases to be about fic at -all- and starts being about hype.

my beef with empty chairs at empty tables is that it's decently well-written, but it's such an utter horrible TRAVESTY of a fic, that belies everything canon is about, that when you have fans flocking to it eager for more, it makes you feel like, good god, how can these people possibly be real fans? it makes you want to not write anything else ever again because if these are the kind of people reading your writing then they can't possibly have any understanding of things like "in-character" and "canonical", can they? sigh. and that, to me, has nothing to do with the hype and everything to do with the kinds of expectations we as writers have of the kinds of audiences we want to read our fics.

which is why, when i rec fics, i rec fics to a certain kind of audience. i guess i long ago gave up hoping that the more aesthetically picky crowd would ever go for my stuff. What you people see in it is beyond me. :D

hee ^^

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*grins widely*
there's nothing that's enjoyable quite the same way as picking apart fic. i -think- i could do it to my fic, too, and be flattered, but i'm not sure, having never done it. still, it's tempting~:)

i really dislike most of blue's stuff.... but then, overplayed angst is worse than overplayed fluff in terms of being too sentimentalized and cheap and sad. i actually don't remember `chairs' as well as i could.... am definitely surprised you had such a strong response to it, since it seemed kinda "eh" to me-- readable but mediocre.

oh yeah. -that-. ahahaha. the-betrayer!draco. heh.
oh man, i was like, WHAT?!? when i first read it, but kept reading 'cause of some morbid fascination. couldn't get myself to read part 12 after having it somewhere bookmarked. just dull, really.

badfic is always dull, too.
then again, so -much- fic is a travesty to canon, i'd be ranting all day if i started. *smirks*
i should prolly start with mine, heh -.-

i myself have a certain bulletproof kink factor when it comes to h/d in general, though i've gotten tired after a year. i put up with a lot, but then... in the end, if it doesn't have basic psychological believability (which i think all badfic is missing), i just can't be bothered. though i could be convinced if it's got porn, you know how it is. i'm only human :D :D

am now wondering madly what "r" is, 'cause i'm running all popular h/d fics through my head and none of them start with r. *ponders*

and now it's past THREE and i STILL haven't read -anyone's- fic.
*falls over*

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

haha. go to bed. sleep. read fic in the morning when you're refreshed and whatnot. :D *pats*

i am exhausted,and going to bed.

Re: idea! (part one)

[conversant.livejournal.com]

I'm reading through this thread and really should stop and get work done, but I wanted to weigh in here. As I recall, you object (and frankly, I do, too) to both Empty Chairs and Just This because the portrayal of Draco makes him abjectly willing to suffer things from Harry and (in the first case) from wizardom in general that no one should suffer.

If either of these stories succeeded in being (or intended to be) studies of abjection or battered partner syndrome, then there might be a pretext for the things they do to the character, but it is disturbing to be led into such a fic (by interesting scenario or even by simply competent manipulation of the standard H/D exposition) to find that one's sympathy for the characters (and for H/D readers this is also a patterned response, a sort of Pavlovian response, which produces sympathy for both H and D) is being asked to stretch to accept behaviour from Harry that is vicious and behaviour from Draco that makes him complicitous with abusive!Harry.

I do not mean to say that 'dark' treatments of Harry can't/shouldn't exist -- certainly a dehumanized HP is a plausible and *interesting* extrapolation from canon. -- The problem comes when the approving fans and the author him/herself seem to ignore (or be turned on by) the extremely problematic behaviour of the character. In this particular case, the simple 'squee!' review is unhelpful to other readers. (I know you said I'd been among those whose reviews of an early chapter led you into 'Empty Chairs,' and I still cringe about that.)

In this case, the 'squee' review suggests that a huge number of H/D readers must have well-developed abuse kinks in order to allow them to read those fics and find them 'hot' instead of registering any distance from or distress at the plot and characterization. It is difficult to know whether this is the correct inference to draw, however, and your response (and Reena's?) suggests a suspicion that these readers are somehow too stupid to have noticed what the fic is using to make them 'hot,' because if they did, surely they'd have a problem with it. Or perhaps it's that these readers do not, in fact, register the particular plot of a given H/D fic anymore, but are so Pavlovian that they respond to any scenario that sets the two in conflict by becoming automatically aroused. (I may have just completely misrepresented what you meant.)

I'm not comfortable assuming that the H/D community is not filled with readers who get turned on by rape and abuse fic (implied by both scenarios above). I'm also uncomfortable about suggesting that it oughtn't to be if it is.

The politics of such fics bother me a lot, but I know that there is a complex relationship between a person's reading kinks and their real world behaviour, so I'm not willing to climb on a moral soapbox to denounce the reading habits and desires of this group. We all depend on the other side of that argument to justify writing slash at all in countries where doing so would be summarily judged by the 'moral majority.'

I'm also uncomfortable about rants where 'we' condemn other fandom subsets for their obvious stupidity and plebishness. (And yes, I must be sensitive about the fact that I apparently squeed at some point about that story. Why do you ask? Obviously I hate being lumped in with the plebes; that's why I spend so much time cultivating my persona as a pretentious bitch.)

Re: idea! (part one)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I suppose I should once again point out that my beef was with recs/reviews, not feedback, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish, as I see it. I -am- surprised to have inspired this flood of guilt on the part of several people, as if there was this dormant inadequacy there about the way they respond to fics in general, which isn't what I was talking about. Anyone who -means- to communicate about fics to the public should do so at least remotely well-- but the common reader has no compunctions. In this way, I feel reccing/reviewing & feedback only suffer from being confused with each other.

In my description of what a worthwhile review is, I was careful to say nothing about taste or emotional response being in question-- only being careful to say that these things should be separated and labeled, that's -all-. Everyone should feel free to say, "OMG THIS IS GENIUS!!1 >:O" but they should just mention that this is their kink speaking or their need for fluff that day or whatever. Or, conversely, if it's their serious opinion of a fic, they should express it seriously.

The question of discernment doesn't really apply, as I see it. Tastes differ, expectations differ, and that's fine. If you delineate how you came to your opinion, no one can be confused and embarrassment would be avoided. They'd know exactly what they're in for. Saying "it's brilliant" is unhelpful, whereas saying, "it's a witty, sparkling parody that reads as if it was written by weasels on crack-- in a good way" is... you know... more helpful~:)

I think -anyone- who mindlessly chants "goddess-goddess-goddess" is stupid in terms of rating their literary response. Also, anyone who shows -no- emotion is rather dense as well. Calling people stupid is a case-by-point thing with me, anyway-- I'll call anyone stupid that exhibits it, not any particular group, heh. Hell, -I'm- often plebey and I know it. At least I know it, on the other hand.

I find the Pavlovian-response thing to be enlightening. It does seem as if that's what's happening a lot of the time, and while it's okay, everyone has their kinks, what bothers me is when people don't -realize- it, really. I think it's dishonest, really, to ignore the work on some level and just pay attention to the sparkly bits. It shows disrespect to the work. But in feedback, as I said, it's not my problem.

"Empty Chairs" and "Just This" were just bad fics, though readable I suppose. I'm surprised anyone would consider them worth getting upset about, they're so mediocre and not -that- popular, are they? The fandom is full of stupid interpretations of Harry and Draco, man. I do reserve a special place in hell for some fics, and abusive!Harry fics are definitely up there, simply because I love Harry and they don't seem to and that pisses me off, heh.
In general, I would say -most- of the mass-popular H/D fics really really really suck. REALLY. I mean, in every way, almost. I don't mean UL/LUW/MPI/SotF/TLS/VM etcetc-- I mean the run-of-the-mill unknown-author FA and ff.net ones which somehow magically achieve popularity. They all suck simply because the writers aren't very... um... good, all characterization aside.

As far as me having this opinion... I think it's fairly balanced, given that I read those fics and see their merits anyway. Well, such as they are. I don't especially look down on the people who like them (ie, slash fandom as a whole), I just sit there and nod and say "okay, that was rather bad, wasn't it". I mean, compare it. Compare the writing on any one of those things with the merest -drabble- from Ivy or Maya or Cassie-- well? Yeah. They suck~:)

What was my point? er. Yeah, mostly that the -writing's- at fault more than any larger characterization choice, though those can press my buttons pretty well. And it's predictable that lower-level writing will get more public acclaim, too. Like attracts like, man. *is awful; knows it*

Re: idea! (part one)

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

...as if there was this dormant inadequacy there about the way they respond to fics in general, which isn't what I was talking about.

But when you say that the way people respond to fics is off-putting and frustrates you, you're implying that there is an inadequacy there--that the way we talk about fics and pass on recs to each other in the fandom is somehow not what you're looking for.

And I think where you're getting into trouble is by trying to make such a huge distinction between fic reccing and fic feedbacking. often they're hand-in-glove and not really that simple to tear apart.

Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)

[conversant.livejournal.com]

One last thing because I don't dare start a new 'short' post in response to Reena: I lament the fact that review boards are public. There are several ways in which people give feedback and several motives that prompt them to write a 'review.' The squees and the positives-only are, among other things, sent as messages of encouragement to the writer. They are rarely conceived of as 'reviews' in the sense Reena favours; they don't seek to provide a service to other potential readers. That's not wrong. It's simply one kind of review among many. I think it might be well to simply acknowledge that there are different genres within the form this fandom calls a 'review.'

This is an issue for me personally: I review less and less these days, not only because I have limited time, but because I grew anxious about the fact that at one point I became recognizable as a reviewer and a positive comment from me might lead someone else in to read a fic they would then hate and that would in turn make them think less of me and so on. (Case in point: my residual horror at having led you to 'Empty Chairs,' which I don't even remember reviewing [which is why I sometimes think it would be a good idea to give up reviewing altogether]. I'm embarrassed because I actually share your point of view about the fic, but I think I'd be just as embarrassed if you reacted with contempt to a fic I continued to like. I'm not sure how you reacted to spare change's statement that she hated most of the fics you recently recced, but I suspect that at some level it caused some angst because her opinions have earned your respect.

Even though you/I know that it is to be expected that we will not all always like the same stuff (and it shouldn't be a cause of embarrassment or cause a crisis of self-worth), it's still a queasy feeling to have someone you respect lay out their long list of obvious flaws in a story you liked.

Final side note: Academia and the non-academic intelligentsia are communities that cultivate fears of intellectual inadequacy among their members. -- Even/especially the most acclaimed worry that they will be exposed as poseurs and will plummet over the curve of Fortune's wheel to the muck below. Status is gained and maintained by convincing others that one is smarter/more discerning/more skilled/more bold than those who receive the stupid adulation of the uncritical masses. I smell that sort of blood all over the waters of this thread. I'm not shocked or surprised, but it's worth pointing out.

Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Status is gained and maintained by convincing others that one is smarter/more discerning/more skilled/more bold than those who receive the stupid adulation of the uncritical masses.

Oh, for crying out loud. Who the hell cares about status in a FANDOM?

I have to say I really resent this line of argumentation, because it gets thrown at me a lot by the authors and fans of super-popular fics that I don't like. (DT, UL, etc.) It's much easier to just call me an elitist than to acknowledge that there are many, many, many super-popular fics I like. (Seeker to Seeker, anyone? Just not theirs.

This purported anti-elitism is a really good rhetorical strategy for delegitimizing any sort of honest criticism. As is saying "Oh, you're just jealous" or "Oh, you're just trying to look cool and you're not fooling anyone," etc. As an academic who takes concrit and intellectual honesty seriously, I really get angry when people insult the integrity of my reviews or my opinions. Insult me, insult my fics, but don't ever say that my evaluation of fics is based on anything but my own creative judgment.

Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

don't ever say that my evaluation of fics is based on anything but my own creative judgment.

I really don't think that's what Verdant was saying--I think she was saying that when you have a situation where any kind of evaluative judgment is being given, regardless of who is giving it, you're bound to have some kind of residual inadequacy issues and situations where a feeling of inferiority is created--not because anyone in particular attempts to cultivate it, but because people are being judged in the public view according to the kinds of evaluations they give, and that's just simply what happens.

and, yeah, i feel a little put on the defensive by this entire discussion, because i don't really feel comfortable with the idea that i should have to give thorough articulated reasons for why i like fics.

i can't really articulate why i don't feel comfortable with it, either. it has to do with my own insecurity--my own hunch that most writers whom i consider to comprise the, oh, the intelligentsia of this fandom want nothing to do with my writing or my tastes in writing and wouldn't even if i wrote long articulate reviews for every fic i rec. and since i don't honestly feel qualified to review fiction with the same confidence i have for my theatre reviews, i would much rather say "this fic made me happy" and leave it at that, than give long elaborate reviews. I am insecure about my ability to write good reviews. I would much rather practice and get better at it during personal reviews to authors than during posts made for the general public that anyone may see and pass judgment on.

What I mean is, to put it bluntly: say I squee about a fic and you clicks on it and you hate it. Even if I explain beforehand exactly why this fic is an utter masterpiece, you're *still* going to hate it, no matter what. However, in the first instance, you're only going to hate the fic itself. You're *not* going to hate my opinion of it, because I haven't explained enough about *why* I recced it for you to do so. But in the second instance, if I write a long critique of the fic and you still hate it, then I have opened my articulated opinion up for debate. And I *hate* debate. That's why I would much rather sidestep the debate, sidestep any potential for having my opinion ridiculed, and just rec the fics and be positive and upbeat and squee a lot.

And I realise that such a stance has probably made me subject to ridicule anyway--but at least this way I get to t00b my merry way through the fandom, and nobody gets their feelings hurt, and I don't have to be hurt in case anyone thinks my opinions of fics aren't intelligent, because I haven't been going out of my way to court their good opinion.

(more)

--and still more angsting.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

And maybe you're right--maybe no one cares about "status" per se in the fandom; but I do care that I have the respect of people around me, and that people think I'm intelligent. I harbor a blanket insecurity that many people whom I respect very much as writers will, I dunno, think less of me if I go to great lengths to explain why I love certain fics that they hate, or fics that later turn out to be shit.

I mean, it is a concern for me that my reviews be examples of good taste. This is why I just spent an hour going back and deleting all mention of "Artful Facade" from my old recs. I don't want anybody to judge my tastes by how a fic I recced and loved ages ago turned out. But by the same token, I want my fic recs to represent *me*, and --I just don't want to have to think before I rec a fic, "will Lasair be happy with the amount of thoughtful critique I put into this rec?" I just don't.

This is all stemming from the same basic insecurity: maybe I'm just not *good* enough as a reviewer to successfully critique things; maybe I'm just not *good* enough as a writer to ever have a fic win a Potter Slash Award or something. You can't tell me that all writers don't go through that on some basic level. And for me, that insecurity ends with the fact that no matter how many people like my fics, I know there are other writers I deeply respect and admire who will never give me the time of day, either because I set myself up as a squeeing mindless fangirl, or because I just don't have the ability to write fics they enjoy.

Either way, I've made my little nest in the fandom out of being just who I am, and for me, the question of how I rec things involves the question of who I want to please: do I want to please all the other squeeing mindless fangirls, or do I want to please those of you who want more substantive recs complete with discussable critique?-- or, do I want to just be myself and float somewhere in-between those two poles?

I am perfectly happy and content to keep on doing what I'm doing. I'm not pleased that my recs don't please everyone, of course, but then I never expected them to. Will I try to compromise in the future as we talked about above?--absolutely. But I'll be doing it because I want to make you and Reena happy, because you are my friends--not because I feel I'm obligated to give my readers intelligent responses to every fic I read.

*mops brow*

[conversant.livejournal.com]

Insult me, insult my fics, but don't ever say that my evaluation of fics is based on anything but my own creative judgment. Actually, I didn't say or intend any of the above, and I'm puzzled why you thought this paragraph was about you rather than about Aja or Reenka or others in that thread.

Clearly this morning I shouldn't have read or posted to LJ at all; I wrote no end of dumb and poorly-constructed things that caused ill feeling in several places (not just with you on this thread).

*Wonders if I insulted you last night, too, because it wasn't my intention in either place.*

Here, I had in mind the way that the 'venting' and 'snarking' discussion was veering toward hints about fics that are beneath contempt and moving toward what I took to be a sort of celebration of shared superiority over the undiscerning masses. Reading back up the thread a minute ago to find some support for that interpretation of the discussion, I couldn't really isolate a smoking gun, so I was obviously more tetchy and blind and pavlovian than I realized this morning. In any case, as I was writing that, it was not you I thought I was describing. (In fact, you were up thread as the voice of wisdom reminding Aja about the potential consequences of 'closed-post' venting.)

As far as your right to review and dislike fic that others like (and your experience of being attacked for having the audacity to dislike something adored by millions), I'll die for your right to do that so long as you have put forward your reasons for the negative view -- which is precisely what you do. I attempted to do this in my discussion of my issues with two of the fics that had been mentioned in the thread ('Just This' and 'Empty Chairs'). I don't have a problem with any of us discussing the reasons we find a particular fic to be flawed or offensive or incoherent or bland. (Obviously, I also sympathize with the impulse to just not put oneself forward for another round of kicking by those who enjoy kicking critics.)

That paragraph of mine about academic and non-academic elitism is an example of why those who put forward unsupported generalizations ought to be hunted down and tortured for the harm they do. (*raises hand and lines up for punishment*) I apologize that it pissed you off, not only because it wasn't my intention, but because it happened as a result of my being too unfocused to properly explain what I meant.

There's one other thing I think I must need to clarify (because I can't quite see how you reached the conclusion that I had you in mind in that paragraph if you did not also take my reference to you earlier in the post counter to my intention). When I was discussing my dislike of review boards because they let others read my immediate, off-the-cuff, just-clicked-the-link-after-reading-it response to a chapter or ficlet, I confessed to Aja that I'm sort of haunted by her having said that it was that sort of 'review' of mine that lured her into a fic she hated.

I said, in that regard, that I imagined she felt a similar pang when you told her you disliked the stories she'd recced. I posited that this pang was likely intensified by the fact that she respects your opinion. Do you realize that I respect your opinion as well? I also respect your writing, though you've made that more accessible just as I've moved temporarily to a place where fic reading is absolutely off-limits. We haven't interacted at all in a long time, which on my part was because I respected your decision to step away from the wearisome stuff (like this?) in fandom. However, the vehemence of your reaction here made me wonder whether you imagine mine to have been a hostile silence.

Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Insult me, insult my fics, but don't ever say that my evaluation of fics is based on anything but my own creative judgment.

heeee. *narrowly escapes from threatening burst of hero-worship* ~:)

in which I angst.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

Even though you/I know that it is to be expected that we will not all always like the same stuff (and it shouldn't be a cause of embarrassment or cause a crisis of self-worth), it's still a queasy feeling to have someone you respect lay out their long list of obvious flaws in a story you liked.

I seem to be using "Empty Chairs" as my case study here. The other day, on shadowluck's journal, she made a really gushing post about how much she liked that fic, how she thought it was far superior to plague of legends, etc. and everybody started commenting to her about how much they agreed with her. that really annoyed me and so I spoke up and said how much I hated it. but just saying "i hate this fic" felt like an unjustifiable approach, so i c/p'd part of the entry that i made on lieblich about it months ago, which of course you remember.

so there i was--i'd justified my position; but i FELT HORRIBLE. I felt like an ogre, attacking this fic that shadowluck had gone out of her way to praise, saying less-than-positive things about an author who was probably on her friends list and who probably would have read it and been hurt by it, and even though i feel absolutely certain that my criticisms of the story were thorough and justified, i STILL FELT HORRIBLE about it. so i deleted it. and that has been the only time i've ever even attempted to make a public negative statement about somebody's fic in, oh, well over a year.

pointing out a fic's flaws will cause unease to the author. it's inevitable. even if you're an author who loves constructive criticism, there's always insecurity associated with letting somebody else read and possibly take pot shots at your work, even if they do it under the guise of friendly discussion.

Now I am going to reply to S below, and angst about my own intellectual inadequacy. :D

Re: idea!

[kerri]

Hmm. You *could* do that - just get everyone to post anonymously, and turn off the IP logging. The thing would be to find a place to do it. :P

Re: idea!

[lieblich.livejournal.com]

haha, someone really really should.

of course everyone would then naturally say they can't stand love under will and i would be crushed. :D :D :D :D

Re: idea!

[manna]

haha, someone really really should.

Someone set up an review/discussion community called twist_of_lemon, which is for anonymous dicussion of popslash fics. It's gone rather quiet at the moment. I read some of it, but having everyone posting anonymously made it really hard to follow the discussions ("No, I'm not the anonymous who doesn't like Rhys's use of bodily fluids, or the one who loves it, I'm the one who likes it normally but thought Box was OTT.")