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reenkaI have a very strange confession to make. I just need to get it off my chest so I never have to writhe in silent nameless discomfort ever again. Yeah, right.
Squeeing, 100%-positive and yet not really -descriptive- rave recs/reviews of fics make me cringe. No, I lie. I hate them. I REALLY HATE THEM A LOT. RAAAAGE. (Ok, no.)
EDIT - to clarify: by "review" I don't mean feedback, I mean it in the "movie review" sense.
Not only that, they make me violently dislike both the reviewer and the fic, even if I -adore- the fic in question. I have to really bite my lip and repeat to myself "I love this fic, I -love- this fic, remember I -love- this fic!" so that I don't just write an anti-rec right back detailing all the flaws I can possibly think of (there are always some! Jeez!). I realize this is easily seen as hypocritical, considering how excited I get over fics. Still, I could -swear- I've never given what I'd consider pat compliments: Oh, this is great, genius, wonderful, beautiful, amazing. I've never called anyone "extremely talented" or even talented. I've never raved about how worthy someone/something is of their popularity or thought any fic -should- be popular as a sign of its greatness. Of course, I'm sort of elitist and snobbish like that :>
I've never guarranteed anyone would have to like a fic. That just -really- pisses me off. How could anyone assume -any- piece of writing is soooo great, -everyone- has to love it? My god, what arrogance! Not only that, it just feels like advertising to me. I hate advertising, in case that isn't clear. I hate it with all the passion of a thousand burning hells. Nothing rubs me the wrong way like a rave review that could easily apply to -any- fic out of hundreds. Saying only nondescript, gushy things about a truly good, visceral piece of writing just... deadens it.
I actually can't stand reading most positive reviews, though I'm almost always highly entertained by negative ones (they're usually funny, at least). The words one uses in response should contain some tiny spark of inspiration, something that is reminiscent of the fic, otherwise the review is pointless because it doesn't actually -say- anything and all I get is "propaganda-propaganda-propaganda-propaganda". And as should be painfully obvious, I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally despise propaganda quite, quite a lot.
So I'm in this weird place where I'm semi-known for recs and reviews and yet I have very little respect for the practice of reccing & reviewing itself as is commonly practiced. In fact, 98% of all blurbs & mini-reviews and such annoy the living daylights out of me, especially if they're of fics I adore. First of all, if you act as if a fic is -perfect-, it takes away from its actual humanity, from its real worth. It's like, you're not using your brain, so why should I believe a word you say in response, and does that mean -I'm- not using my brain in loving it, too?
If I had time, I'd post a mini-list of all my favorite fics and say only critical things of them to show how much I love them. If one doesn't -think- or express one's feelings in any sort of creative manner, one is just a parrot, someone who likes the shiny thing without really being capable of seeing its true beauty. I think to an extent, the readers help define the fic-- that is to say, if brainless zombies like a fic, you wonder how good can it possibly be. On the other hand, if eloquent, thoughtful people like the fic, one feels the worth of the fic itself is thus elevated.
Because of this, I realized I have a creed-- a set of ethics as a reviewer:
- Never use hyperbole-- say how it affects you in the most direct yet descriptive way possible; pretend you're talking to a skeptic if it helps. Said skeptic will laugh every time you use more than one adjective per sentence.
- Never project your own response onto others-- confine yourself to detailing your own thoughts, leave others to form their own opinions; separate your kinks from those of others and keep it in mind when describing the merits of a fic.
- Never push a fic onto others as if it's a drug-- separate your own excitement and your actual full response to the work.
- Objectivity isn't just for dinner anymore: try it, it works! Don't do the writer or the work the disservice of pretending they've attained perfection: there is no need to be negative, but please refrain from overindulging in the "bestseller syndrome", where mass hysteria passes for literary worth. Treat the writer as "a writer", and the work as "a work", as best you can.
*wankwankwankwank*
Squeeing, 100%-positive and yet not really -descriptive- rave recs/reviews of fics make me cringe. No, I lie. I hate them. I REALLY HATE THEM A LOT. RAAAAGE. (Ok, no.)
EDIT - to clarify: by "review" I don't mean feedback, I mean it in the "movie review" sense.
Not only that, they make me violently dislike both the reviewer and the fic, even if I -adore- the fic in question. I have to really bite my lip and repeat to myself "I love this fic, I -love- this fic, remember I -love- this fic!" so that I don't just write an anti-rec right back detailing all the flaws I can possibly think of (there are always some! Jeez!). I realize this is easily seen as hypocritical, considering how excited I get over fics. Still, I could -swear- I've never given what I'd consider pat compliments: Oh, this is great, genius, wonderful, beautiful, amazing. I've never called anyone "extremely talented" or even talented. I've never raved about how worthy someone/something is of their popularity or thought any fic -should- be popular as a sign of its greatness. Of course, I'm sort of elitist and snobbish like that :>
I've never guarranteed anyone would have to like a fic. That just -really- pisses me off. How could anyone assume -any- piece of writing is soooo great, -everyone- has to love it? My god, what arrogance! Not only that, it just feels like advertising to me. I hate advertising, in case that isn't clear. I hate it with all the passion of a thousand burning hells. Nothing rubs me the wrong way like a rave review that could easily apply to -any- fic out of hundreds. Saying only nondescript, gushy things about a truly good, visceral piece of writing just... deadens it.
I actually can't stand reading most positive reviews, though I'm almost always highly entertained by negative ones (they're usually funny, at least). The words one uses in response should contain some tiny spark of inspiration, something that is reminiscent of the fic, otherwise the review is pointless because it doesn't actually -say- anything and all I get is "propaganda-propaganda-propaganda-propaganda". And as should be painfully obvious, I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally despise propaganda quite, quite a lot.
So I'm in this weird place where I'm semi-known for recs and reviews and yet I have very little respect for the practice of reccing & reviewing itself as is commonly practiced. In fact, 98% of all blurbs & mini-reviews and such annoy the living daylights out of me, especially if they're of fics I adore. First of all, if you act as if a fic is -perfect-, it takes away from its actual humanity, from its real worth. It's like, you're not using your brain, so why should I believe a word you say in response, and does that mean -I'm- not using my brain in loving it, too?
If I had time, I'd post a mini-list of all my favorite fics and say only critical things of them to show how much I love them. If one doesn't -think- or express one's feelings in any sort of creative manner, one is just a parrot, someone who likes the shiny thing without really being capable of seeing its true beauty. I think to an extent, the readers help define the fic-- that is to say, if brainless zombies like a fic, you wonder how good can it possibly be. On the other hand, if eloquent, thoughtful people like the fic, one feels the worth of the fic itself is thus elevated.
Because of this, I realized I have a creed-- a set of ethics as a reviewer:
- Never use hyperbole-- say how it affects you in the most direct yet descriptive way possible; pretend you're talking to a skeptic if it helps. Said skeptic will laugh every time you use more than one adjective per sentence.
- Never project your own response onto others-- confine yourself to detailing your own thoughts, leave others to form their own opinions; separate your kinks from those of others and keep it in mind when describing the merits of a fic.
- Never push a fic onto others as if it's a drug-- separate your own excitement and your actual full response to the work.
- Objectivity isn't just for dinner anymore: try it, it works! Don't do the writer or the work the disservice of pretending they've attained perfection: there is no need to be negative, but please refrain from overindulging in the "bestseller syndrome", where mass hysteria passes for literary worth. Treat the writer as "a writer", and the work as "a work", as best you can.
*wankwankwankwank*
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Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 04:49 am (UTC)This is an issue for me personally: I review less and less these days, not only because I have limited time, but because I grew anxious about the fact that at one point I became recognizable as a reviewer and a positive comment from me might lead someone else in to read a fic they would then hate and that would in turn make them think less of me and so on. (Case in point: my residual horror at having led you to 'Empty Chairs,' which I don't even remember reviewing [which is why I sometimes think it would be a good idea to give up reviewing altogether]. I'm embarrassed because I actually share your point of view about the fic, but I think I'd be just as embarrassed if you reacted with contempt to a fic I continued to like. I'm not sure how you reacted to spare change's statement that she hated most of the fics you recently recced, but I suspect that at some level it caused some angst because her opinions have earned your respect.
Even though you/I know that it is to be expected that we will not all always like the same stuff (and it shouldn't be a cause of embarrassment or cause a crisis of self-worth), it's still a queasy feeling to have someone you respect lay out their long list of obvious flaws in a story you liked.
Final side note: Academia and the non-academic intelligentsia are communities that cultivate fears of intellectual inadequacy among their members. -- Even/especially the most acclaimed worry that they will be exposed as poseurs and will plummet over the curve of Fortune's wheel to the muck below. Status is gained and maintained by convincing others that one is smarter/more discerning/more skilled/more bold than those who receive the stupid adulation of the uncritical masses. I smell that sort of blood all over the waters of this thread. I'm not shocked or surprised, but it's worth pointing out.
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 12:07 pm (UTC)Oh, for crying out loud. Who the hell cares about status in a FANDOM?
I have to say I really resent this line of argumentation, because it gets thrown at me a lot by the authors and fans of super-popular fics that I don't like. (DT, UL, etc.) It's much easier to just call me an elitist than to acknowledge that there are many, many, many super-popular fics I like. (Seeker to Seeker, anyone? Just not theirs.
This purported anti-elitism is a really good rhetorical strategy for delegitimizing any sort of honest criticism. As is saying "Oh, you're just jealous" or "Oh, you're just trying to look cool and you're not fooling anyone," etc. As an academic who takes concrit and intellectual honesty seriously, I really get angry when people insult the integrity of my reviews or my opinions. Insult me, insult my fics, but don't ever say that my evaluation of fics is based on anything but my own creative judgment.
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 02:10 pm (UTC)I really don't think that's what Verdant was saying--I think she was saying that when you have a situation where any kind of evaluative judgment is being given, regardless of who is giving it, you're bound to have some kind of residual inadequacy issues and situations where a feeling of inferiority is created--not because anyone in particular attempts to cultivate it, but because people are being judged in the public view according to the kinds of evaluations they give, and that's just simply what happens.
and, yeah, i feel a little put on the defensive by this entire discussion, because i don't really feel comfortable with the idea that i should have to give thorough articulated reasons for why i like fics.
i can't really articulate why i don't feel comfortable with it, either. it has to do with my own insecurity--my own hunch that most writers whom i consider to comprise the, oh, the intelligentsia of this fandom want nothing to do with my writing or my tastes in writing and wouldn't even if i wrote long articulate reviews for every fic i rec. and since i don't honestly feel qualified to review fiction with the same confidence i have for my theatre reviews, i would much rather say "this fic made me happy" and leave it at that, than give long elaborate reviews. I am insecure about my ability to write good reviews. I would much rather practice and get better at it during personal reviews to authors than during posts made for the general public that anyone may see and pass judgment on.
What I mean is, to put it bluntly: say I squee about a fic and you clicks on it and you hate it. Even if I explain beforehand exactly why this fic is an utter masterpiece, you're *still* going to hate it, no matter what. However, in the first instance, you're only going to hate the fic itself. You're *not* going to hate my opinion of it, because I haven't explained enough about *why* I recced it for you to do so. But in the second instance, if I write a long critique of the fic and you still hate it, then I have opened my articulated opinion up for debate. And I *hate* debate. That's why I would much rather sidestep the debate, sidestep any potential for having my opinion ridiculed, and just rec the fics and be positive and upbeat and squee a lot.
And I realise that such a stance has probably made me subject to ridicule anyway--but at least this way I get to t00b my merry way through the fandom, and nobody gets their feelings hurt, and I don't have to be hurt in case anyone thinks my opinions of fics aren't intelligent, because I haven't been going out of my way to court their good opinion.
(more)
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 03:27 pm (UTC)You don't have to write elaborate critiques. All you should do is write enough so that the person who reads your recs can go into the fic with the proper expectations, and give both authors a fair reading. Whether that be: "This is one of the most beautiful, original, and moving fics in the fandom" or "This is smutty and fun and while some people may have issues with the characterization, I find the premise so tasty that I'm fine with it."
That took me what, 10 seconds to write? It's not a big deal, honestly.
I mean, this is what I and what most people do, and if you want people to take your recs seriously (AND WHY SHOULDN'T THEY?), I think you should do that. One of the things I've always admired about you is that you use your LJ as a forum to pimp other people's work, and not just indulge in stroking your own ego, like nearly every other BNF I can think of. What you are doing is *important*. It is a sign of my rexspect for you and what I think you contribute to fandom that I wish you could just take a couple of extra minutes in putting together your rec lists, so that people can feel like they can rely on you to flag fics worth reading (and why you think they're worth reading) and by so doing give under-recognized authors more of the readership and feedback they deserve.
That's why I think this is important, and that's why all these issues about elitism or intelligence or being afraid of debate don't really make sense to me. Because reccing is not about the reccer. It's about the fics that the reccer recs. I don't see why you should be afraid to say, "Okay, I realize a number of you may not like this, and admittedly elements X, Y, and Z are a bit problematic, but I enjoyed it and if you like [insert kink], I think it's worth a look."
Because as long as you're specific, then other people can't get angry with you. If you say THIS FIC SUX that's as bad as saying THIS FIC ROX. Neither one of them tells the author anything. Whereas if you say, "I'm sorry, I had problems with your fic and here are my specific reasons," then the author can mull them over and decide whether or not this feedback is useful to her.
I mean, if somebody says my fics suck, that just makes me feel bad. Whereas if they say, "Look, I can't read Lucius/Draco, it upsets me, and the particular way you do it is so creepy that it really upsets me" (or: "Your writing style is too compact for me and it interfered with my enjoyment of the story"), then this is something I can think about for when I write my next fic. And I can ask myself if now, given what I know about this reviewer's likes and dislikes, if they are really my intended audience, anyway.
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 08:18 pm (UTC)No, honestly, I *don't* think I'm doing either fic a disservice when I rec them together. They're entirely different fics within *entirely* different genres of writing and NOBODY will think that I'm trying to say they possess an equal share of brilliance. It would be like me saying "I REALLY LOVE JOHNNY CASH!" and "I REALLY LOVE MOZART!" in the same breath. I think it's a perfectly legitimate expectation that I can love both of them equally without having to go into the whys and wherefores of *why* I love them, every single time I decide to talk about music. I mean, it's *just* fiction. I'm not making any pretenses to anything except saying "this is what i like, i think you'll like it too." whenever somebody gives me a horde of music recs and i go download them, i'm equally likely to come across something i detest as well as something i love, right? but yet i don't place any responsibility on the part of the music reccer to explain to me in advance *why* i was going to love one and not the other. so why is it such a big deal for fic reccing? i just am not seeing the connection.
I *totally* agree with your saying that reader feedback and critique is more helpful than saying "i just don't like this"--but again i think that should be left for the review and not the rec.
*holds head* am i making *any* sense?
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 03:28 pm (UTC)As for Draco and the quotes: this isn't really a Draco I can get behind. Which is not to say that you shouldn't write him that way ... but you know I prefer things on the nasty/petty side of the spectrum.
And of course I don't like saying this, and I don't want you to feel ":( S liked some of my other fics better than this one," but at the same time, I wasn't really your audience here. You were writing it for Maya, who has very different ideas and expectations of what an H/D fic should be. There isn't ever going to be one fic that can please everyone, so why should you worry?
So all recs need to do, IMHO, is just say, "Hey, you folks who like X? This is some good X." And why should you worry about appearing intelligent? We already know you're intelligent. Making your own preferences and biases clear (i.e. I will read even bad Lucius/Harry noncon, because ... HELLO? IT'S LUCIUS/HARRY NONCON!!!!), doesn't make people lose respect for you. It just makes them say, "Okay, Aja likes the fluff, so this group of fics that she recs as 'Ones That Made Me Smile' probably aren't going to do it for me." I mean, I seriously doubt that this sort of categorization is going to spark a fandom flamewar.
Again, while I sympathize with the anxieties and insecurities you're expressing here, in a way I just kind of don't get it. Recs aren't about you ... they're about linking up readers and writers. That's all! That's why I think these comments about elitism are totally irrelevant.
And please don't fret about the Potter Slash Awards. I think the entire premise is complete bullshit and it's just a pathetic and transparent excuse for giving the same handful of people the same ego strokes. This time would be much better devoted to publicizing new writers. I actually went to the site and voted "None of the above" for each category; the whole thing makes me really angry.
It's far better to aim for pleasing the folks whom *you* most respect, and while I can't speak for everyone, I think that some of your fics are amongst the very, very best in fandom ... I would put them right next to Rhod's or Olympia's or whomever else one might want to name. So stop smiting yourself, okay?
Now i dead from, whatever. :D
Date: 2003-09-30 08:42 pm (UTC)And I'm not talking about elitism, I'm talking about satisfying expectations. The reason I mentioned the Potter Slash Awards was the same reason I mentioned the 'intelligentsia' to begin with--not because I feel excluded, I don't--what I was saying was that the bottom line is that I will never be able to satisfy certain audiences with my writing. I know that and I don't try to. I just write the way I want to, and I write what makes me happy. Why should it be any different with fic reccing?
You talk about aiming for pleasing the people whom I most respect--but many of the writers and reviewers whom I respect very very highly in this fandom barely know me from Adam, and certainly have never read my writing, and aren't liable to pay any attention to my fic recs. At the same time, though I have said I will try to be more categorical with my fic recs in future, I said it primarily out of *affection* for you and Reena, not out of a wish to gratify either of your aesthetic tastes.
Basically, it boils down to this: you would rather I rec things more conscientiously in order to please the people I respect; I would rather I rec things just as spastically as I have always done, in order to please myself.
:)
As for your comments on The Reader, I understand all of them, and am gratified by your feedback. I had specific reasons for using the pacing I chose for the story, and of course the Draco was written specifically with Maya's take on him in mind--he was meant to be noble for her, not anyone else, as you rightly pointed out. I am as always delighted that you would take the time to read anything I wrote, and *please* don't feel bad about saying what you said--I took no offense at all; in fact a part of me is *always* humbled that you don't think my fics are pure trash--let alone that you think I am in any way a decent writer next to yourself and so many others around here whom I admire.
You don't generally have to worry about upsetting me, S. I hold you in deep affection and even deeper respect, as I hope you have figured out by now. :D
Re: Now i dead from, whatever. :D
Date: 2003-10-02 01:18 am (UTC)Okay, so I managed to dig out The Reply That I Spent Half an Hour Trying to Send Yesterday:
...
Well, I don't think we need to run this subject into the ground, but I guess it depends on the point of the rec.
If the point of the rec is to say: I like all these fics, then yes, your strategy works.
If the point of the rec is to link up fics with readers who will approach them with expectations that are appropriate to the author and the fic -- expectations that will allow them to appreciate the fic for what it is and not be frustrated with what it isn't -- then no. I do think it is worth letting the readers know that TTOTSP and All Bets Are Off are entirely different fics within *entirely* different genres of writing. Because right now, your recs don't do that, and that was really all I was asking for.
Because it is a waste of the readers' time and goodwill not to let them know what they are in for. I mean, starting a multi-chaptered fic is a bit of investment, if ultimately the reccer knows it isn't going to pay off for certain kinds of readers.
But I think that may be the reason why we both kind of aren't "getting" the other person's point ... we just see the purpose of recs differently. Does this make sense to you? My own personal stakes are different from yours: I try to represent the fics accurately, and in so doing, I try to straddle the balance between tact and honesty to the best of my ability. But when people say -- as they do, from time to time -- What a crappy fic, you're such an idiot (this is usually my close friends), I just say: Look, I already told you what this fic would be like and you went ahead and read it anyway. So if it doesn't satisfy your crapass artsy ficlet standards, then tough shit. Seriously.
I dunno ... maybe I don't care about appearing intelligent precisely 'cos I have this stupid intellislasher label, which makes NO SENSE given that I write smut and folks like [person who is not on IS archive #1] and [person who is not on IS archive #2] write the most ridiculously pretentious fics that are all section breaks and dictionary definitions and COMPLETELY INCOMPREHENSIBLE and yet everyone applauds them. Whereas they harsh on my sad little Death-Eater orgy fics as eitist, incessantly. Whatever.
So I don't have any investment in appearing "smart" to fandom as either a reccer or a writer. My concerns are just with being fair and honest when I state my opinions of fics, and writing stories that the few folks that I admire will like.
Why the fuck should I care what a bunch of high school students think? My god. And why should you? Anyone who doubts your intellect is a fucktard, Aja. I really mean it. Worry about proving yourself in RL, where it counts.
<333333333
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 03:57 pm (UTC)*hughughug*
i'm sorry to have brought this up now. i didn't mean -you-, like at -all- with this post. i trust you even if and when you rec things i don't like, simply because often enough -i- rec things people i respect don't like, (as in, `lustre' and penguin's work and i mean, there are people who don't like everything and anything). i myself empathize, because i've loved and linked to plenty of fics at one point that make me shake my head now, looking back. i link to a number of happy-fuzzy harry-wuvs-drako-and-they-fuck fics... though not as much these days. but i dig it, y'know. i'm part of the audience for your recs, even though a number of them whizz by me.
but then....
dude. you must realize this-- the h/d section of the fandom doesn't -have- an intelligentsia, not really an h/d intelligentsia. we have people -associated- with the h/d-ers who have -at one point- read/written h/d, but most of them are -really- not into it now. most people who'd consider themselves discerning and are elitist are into h/s and weasleycest and deatheater orgies or whatever. there is simply no -way- to pander to them and link more than 3 h/d fics a year, dude. *hugs*
it's not your fault, in other words.
most people who write h/d -now- are plebes. the selection isn't that -wide-. and since some of us still -want- to read new fics, there's really nothing one can do -but- read with one's "elite alarms" lowered. if you're unable to lower your standards, you simply wouldn't survive as an active h/d fan in practice, i think. now, anyway.
i never meant to imply that only "long, articulate reviews" are valid or needed. and again, i think you're fine, personally, even though your recs don't always hit the spot, you rec -so much-, naturally a number of them do merely by statistical likelihoood. heh. i was mostly ranting at people who rec one thing at a time, obviously -mean- to pimp this particular fic, and they manage to make it sound completely bland and devoid of personality and fire and -meaning-. this is really almost an unrelated issue. almost.
when you -have- given commentary or critique, i've always found it very intelligent and competent and balanced. and i do trust my own opinion, so i hope you believe me, heh.
your enthusiasm and romanticism is naturally going to turn off some of them more jaded, skeptical part of the population, and there's no way to avoid that. there's that "can't really have your cake and eat it too" thing here. there isn't really any inherent -superiority- in being jaded & postmodern, you know. this is -fun-, this is -fanfic-. your fic & recs make a lot of people happy, and the people it doesn't cut it for aren't really in the market anyway.
i think your writing -does- speak for itself, and is often objectively brilliant, as far as fiction can be called objectively anything. you're a wonderful writer and you have an instinctual grasp of the dynamics of the characters. even so, you can't necessarily attract the people who want something else entirely from what you're offering. *sigh*
their loss, y'know~:)
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 08:09 pm (UTC)does that make any sense at all?
gah. am so brain dead. livejournal has KILLED me tonight with its slow load times. KILLED ME LIKE A BUG.
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 08:34 pm (UTC)nah, i wasn't saying you -should- do anything, was i? i wasn't ranting about you, and tried to reassure you of that from the start, but er... i'll just say it again-- don't worry, be happy, just keep on truckin'. or something like that. without the trucks. i don't like trucks.
*pats*
here, i'll try to (finally!) post my review :D :D
eheheheh.
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 08:48 pm (UTC)--and still more angsting.
Date: 2003-09-30 02:11 pm (UTC)I mean, it is a concern for me that my reviews be examples of good taste. This is why I just spent an hour going back and deleting all mention of "Artful Facade" from my old recs. I don't want anybody to judge my tastes by how a fic I recced and loved ages ago turned out. But by the same token, I want my fic recs to represent *me*, and --I just don't want to have to think before I rec a fic, "will Lasair be happy with the amount of thoughtful critique I put into this rec?" I just don't.
This is all stemming from the same basic insecurity: maybe I'm just not *good* enough as a reviewer to successfully critique things; maybe I'm just not *good* enough as a writer to ever have a fic win a Potter Slash Award or something. You can't tell me that all writers don't go through that on some basic level. And for me, that insecurity ends with the fact that no matter how many people like my fics, I know there are other writers I deeply respect and admire who will never give me the time of day, either because I set myself up as a squeeing mindless fangirl, or because I just don't have the ability to write fics they enjoy.
Either way, I've made my little nest in the fandom out of being just who I am, and for me, the question of how I rec things involves the question of who I want to please: do I want to please all the other squeeing mindless fangirls, or do I want to please those of you who want more substantive recs complete with discussable critique?-- or, do I want to just be myself and float somewhere in-between those two poles?
I am perfectly happy and content to keep on doing what I'm doing. I'm not pleased that my recs don't please everyone, of course, but then I never expected them to. Will I try to compromise in the future as we talked about above?--absolutely. But I'll be doing it because I want to make you and Reena happy, because you are my friends--not because I feel I'm obligated to give my readers intelligent responses to every fic I read.
*mops brow*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-30 02:51 pm (UTC)Clearly this morning I shouldn't have read or posted to LJ at all; I wrote no end of dumb and poorly-constructed things that caused ill feeling in several places (not just with you on this thread).
*Wonders if I insulted you last night, too, because it wasn't my intention in either place.*
Here, I had in mind the way that the 'venting' and 'snarking' discussion was veering toward hints about fics that are beneath contempt and moving toward what I took to be a sort of celebration of shared superiority over the undiscerning masses. Reading back up the thread a minute ago to find some support for that interpretation of the discussion, I couldn't really isolate a smoking gun, so I was obviously more tetchy and blind and pavlovian than I realized this morning. In any case, as I was writing that, it was not you I thought I was describing. (In fact, you were up thread as the voice of wisdom reminding Aja about the potential consequences of 'closed-post' venting.)
As far as your right to review and dislike fic that others like (and your experience of being attacked for having the audacity to dislike something adored by millions), I'll die for your right to do that so long as you have put forward your reasons for the negative view -- which is precisely what you do. I attempted to do this in my discussion of my issues with two of the fics that had been mentioned in the thread ('Just This' and 'Empty Chairs'). I don't have a problem with any of us discussing the reasons we find a particular fic to be flawed or offensive or incoherent or bland. (Obviously, I also sympathize with the impulse to just not put oneself forward for another round of kicking by those who enjoy kicking critics.)
That paragraph of mine about academic and non-academic elitism is an example of why those who put forward unsupported generalizations ought to be hunted down and tortured for the harm they do. (*raises hand and lines up for punishment*) I apologize that it pissed you off, not only because it wasn't my intention, but because it happened as a result of my being too unfocused to properly explain what I meant.
There's one other thing I think I must need to clarify (because I can't quite see how you reached the conclusion that I had you in mind in that paragraph if you did not also take my reference to you earlier in the post counter to my intention). When I was discussing my dislike of review boards because they let others read my immediate, off-the-cuff, just-clicked-the-link-after-reading-it response to a chapter or ficlet, I confessed to Aja that I'm sort of haunted by her having said that it was that sort of 'review' of mine that lured her into a fic she hated.
I said, in that regard, that I imagined she felt a similar pang when you told her you disliked the stories she'd recced. I posited that this pang was likely intensified by the fact that she respects your opinion. Do you realize that I respect your opinion as well? I also respect your writing, though you've made that more accessible just as I've moved temporarily to a place where fic reading is absolutely off-limits. We haven't interacted at all in a long time, which on my part was because I respected your decision to step away from the wearisome stuff (like this?) in fandom. However, the vehemence of your reaction here made me wonder whether you imagine mine to have been a hostile silence.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 02:14 am (UTC)Actually you came up in conversation on IM the other day, and we were all talking about how extraordinarily nice you are. I moved to a locked LJ last year simply because I was burnt out and overwhelmed and my LJ had become popular enough that I didn't feel I could give my honest opinion of fics any more, out of fear of hurting folks' feelings. And (as you will see me explain below), I didn't want to lie, either. Also, of course, there were some folks whom I wanted to avoid -- and still do! -- but you were never one of them. *pets more*
My problem with your post on this thread was with this: Status is gained and maintained by convincing others that one is smarter/more discerning/more skilled/more bold than those who receive the stupid adulation of the uncritical masses. And there were a couple of lines elsewhere, but I don't want to run this topic into the ground.
You have to realize that ever since I dared to say I didn't like DT and IP, among other "big" fics, these authors and/or their
minionsfriends have been calling me jealous, elitist, a crappy overly-stylized writer who is only into the self-indulgent angst, someone who is trying to be cool by self-consciously going against the crowd ... etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.So this is a touchy subject for me, because these are attacks on my critical integrity. And while liking or disliking fics is a question of taste, whether or not a person's review is honest is a pretty black-and-white issue. I'm in academia like you, so I'm sure you can understand that I take the principle of being critical but fair very seriously. When I evaluate a fic, I am not acting out of personal vendetta or snobbery or anything else. If I didn't like popular fics or authors, then why would I like Aja, Amanuensis, Cybele, etc. etc. etc.?
Anyway. What I am saying is: allusions to reviews being motivated by elitism or status drive me bonkers. Hence the vehemence of my post. It was not personal, believe me.
Moving on:
hints about fics that are beneath contempt and moving toward what I took to be a sort of celebration of shared superiority over the undiscerning masses.
Look, I cannot think of a more fervent consumer of junk culture than myself. I love Adam Sandler movies, for Chrissakes. Meg Ryan in French Kiss made me cry! MAN OH MAN! :D
It is precisely out of the desire to rec the, let's say, Adam Sandler and Meg Ryan movies of ff.net that makes it important for me to distinguish between these kinds of fun fics and writing that sets higher ambitions for itself. (Not to say that there aren't amazing "fun fics" -- I want to tell you to go read Jitterbug, but alas you can't! -- and really poorly-done artsy ones, of course. And 90% of the time, I would much rather read the former category than the latter one, in any event.) Basically, I want to judge the fic on its own merits, and the only way I can make these merits clear, as a reccer, is by taking the time to describe the fic in a line or two. That way, if somebody doesn't like it, I don't have to read it as an attack on my own judgment, but just an attack on that kind of a fic.
x
no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 02:15 am (UTC)This is what I was trying to get across to Aja (you might want to take a look at the above thread). I thought that Aja's self-protective strategy was in fact leaving her more vulnerable to critique. Reccing ain't about the reccer, it's just about giving fics you like or love the chance at a wider audience. So it pays to present them in a way that will allow the readers to pre-screen out the kinds of fics they are only going to dislike, anyway.
Anyway, I think that what both Reenka and I were initially protesting is just the fandom mentality within which even gentle negative feedback is seen as flaming, and hyperbole is the required form of communication. I mean, we all want to be told that we're brilliant and perfect, but I think it's worth having something to strive towards, too. Which is why using the same adjectives to describe something like -- off the top of my head -- Dahlia and the author of Just This?, for example, isn't fair to either one of them.
*wipes sweat off forehead*
Whew!
And now I'm so curious I'm going to have to look at Empty Chairs.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-03 12:20 am (UTC)I dunno, maybe that Empty Chairs story gets really crappy later on, but I read the first chapter and liked it fine!
*hangs head ashamedly*
*runs back to continue*
HAHAHHAHAAHAAA
Date: 2003-10-03 01:54 am (UTC)Yeah, there are a couple of problems, but I love defeated!Draco and evil!Dumbledore and Harry being all selfish and Draco being all prostituted and .....
wheee! *head swirls dizzily*
And the writing, with the exception of the clunky flashback dialogue, is really quite lovely in places, I think.
Thanks for hooking me up. :D :D :D
Re: HAHAHHAHAAHAAA
Date: 2003-10-03 02:34 am (UTC)Sounds as though you either think it's a deliberate send-up of H/D hurt-comfort plots or find it works that way for you despite its serious intentions.
It doesn't matter why: glad you had fun with it. Have you said whether you love, hate, love-to-hate 'Just This'?
Is 'Empty Chairs/Tables' finished yet?
I've got to go. I can't even read the new things in the thread properly, but I couldn't resist answering this.
Re: HAHAHHAHAAHAAA
Date: 2003-10-03 09:41 am (UTC)I thought Just This was crap.
But you know, I love it when Draco is being Defeated and Abused (and, not incidentally, Whored).
I've just finished Chapter 9, and now he is back at Hogwarts, still being Harry's slut and dealing with everyone hating him. I have 3 more chapters to go.
I'm not so much about hurt/comfort as I am just about hurt. I really, really love torturing Draco. He bleeds so prettily. In fact, my problems with the characterization have more to do with him being all noble in the flashback scenes. I like him better when he's snivelling.
To be honest, if I hadn't started reading this fic in the context of this discussion I would probably be pimping it madly.
Anyway I'm going to paste in my reasons for liking it, which I had to torture poor Aja with.
I mean, there are definitely some problems with it (esp. the dialogue in the flashback scenes), but I'm enjoying it. And I've had more than one idea for a Dumbledore-exploits-Draco-and-Harry-finds-out-about-it fic of my own, so this premise works for me. I think that Draco is more gullible than we realize, in some ways.
And there are a couple of gorgeous moments with the language (like at the beginning, when Draco is unconscious and injured at Harry's, and keeps turning from human into falcon without realizing it). Yeah.
Anyway, I just got to the end of the trial and am plunging ahead. Maybe the problem is that I never saw Harry and Draco as equals? I always think that Harry will have the upper hand and it's only Harry's sense of fair play that gives Draco any chance at all. And still, Harry isn't perfect (i.e. fucking the second they get back to Harry's apartment. Hell yeah!)
Now I've read further and I see just how not-perfect Harry is. And this does it for me. Oh hell yes.
I can't emphasize how much I love HURTING DRACO. :D
Re: idea! (part two -- less long, but no less pretentious)
Date: 2003-09-30 03:28 pm (UTC)heeee. *narrowly escapes from threatening burst of hero-worship* ~:)
in which I angst.
Date: 2003-09-30 02:06 pm (UTC)I seem to be using "Empty Chairs" as my case study here. The other day, on
so there i was--i'd justified my position; but i FELT HORRIBLE. I felt like an ogre, attacking this fic that shadowluck had gone out of her way to praise, saying less-than-positive things about an author who was probably on her friends list and who probably would have read it and been hurt by it, and even though i feel absolutely certain that my criticisms of the story were thorough and justified, i STILL FELT HORRIBLE about it. so i deleted it. and that has been the only time i've ever even attempted to make a public negative statement about somebody's fic in, oh, well over a year.
pointing out a fic's flaws will cause unease to the author. it's inevitable. even if you're an author who loves constructive criticism, there's always insecurity associated with letting somebody else read and possibly take pot shots at your work, even if they do it under the guise of friendly discussion.
Now I am going to reply to S below, and angst about my own intellectual inadequacy. :D
Re: in which I angst.
Date: 2003-09-30 03:24 pm (UTC)By the way, how do you read reviews at ffnet? I didn't even realize that a R&R click over there put my response on view, but I'm sure that's where I read the fic in question and where you must have seen the response. I'm getting more and more curious about what I said in that post!
Argh. On one level my response to Reenka's wish for substance in reviews is that I don't think I owe anyone anything. I'm here for my own enjoyment. It's my right to furtively read a million fics a day at ffnet and never let on I read them. It's my right to read an LJ fic and write a long response to its first part and then short votes of encouragement for subsequent parts. It's my right to decide that I want to take time to write 20 pages of critique for each chapter of some fic I get a kick out of thinking through, but it's also my right to not give that sort of response to other fics I also like but don't have the time or inclination to make that investment in. I think the solution may be to restrict myself to sending authors my responses, but that's often more difficult to do than it is to click the button at the bottom and post to a review thread.
I think I'm still unclear about what sort of post in what location Reenka really means. I seem to have been wrong in my assumption that she meant posts to review boards at FA or ffnet and to LJ comments for fics read over here. I also don't think that the Armchair will ever be a venue where long, substantive reviews raise issues that inspire long, substantive arguments from other participants.
I agree that pure squees at the Armchair are a nuisance, mostly because I get the daily digest (ok, right now I get nothing) and the one liner just adds space I have to scroll past (and don't get me started on the ones that don't erase the long post they replied to).
However, nothing is stopping thoughtful reviews but inertia, busyness (*raises hand*), and hesitance. I don't see why the two things can't stand there side by side: the list format doesn't make it easy to track duelling conversations, but it doesn't really make them impossible to track, either. I do think that all in all, LJ seems to be the better forum for such conversations because of the way it lays out the threads. However, long threads are as difficult to track over here as anywhere else (witness this conversation which has now been reduced to outline form).
Re: in which I angst.
Date: 2003-09-30 04:23 pm (UTC)To be v. specific, it was this (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Armchair_Slash/message/3092) post on Armchair that set me off-- it was to introduce Cinnamon as Author of the Month. This isn't really about one-liners-- annoying, but whatever. This was supposed to be some sort of -comment- on her work, and it amounted to "OMG, YEAY!!" which kinda bothers me even -more- because I really enjoy Cinnamon's work.
This is about the times when a link to a fic is meant to -rec- and guide people to the fic. It seems natural to me than when you're talking about a fic to people in general, you shouldn't engage in false advertizing or hyperbole, not because it's some sort of duty, but just because it's nicer to the author -and- the readers.
I would prefer, "this was really sweet and gently touching" over "it was beautiful and gorgeous and perfect", or whatever. But by now I just feel like I'm harping on about this small, pointless little pet-peeve of mine and blowing it all out of proportion. Basically, I dislike the way other people rec because they sound like car salesmen and it makes me feel dumb by association, by liking the fic as well.
This is mostly -my- problem, however, not theirs -or- the readers in general, as far as I know~:)
Re: in which I angst.
Date: 2003-09-30 04:07 pm (UTC)i was mostly saying that the positive reviews could do with a dose of er... explication. i.e., the "why" of it all-- like
on the other hand, i think there's a place for con-crit in fandom-- and i -don't- think that it's only in locked posts and on-on-one emails. there's a -lot- of people who -want- to hear the reservations and problems people have, who outright -ask- for them, and no one says anything. there should be a place for the basic workshop atmosphere to prevail. i -want- that to be true. the people who don't want to hear it don't have to, but people should -still- be able to discuss if they want to, workshop if they want to. but of course, also -refrain- if they don't want to~:)