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reenkaI have a very strange confession to make. I just need to get it off my chest so I never have to writhe in silent nameless discomfort ever again. Yeah, right.
Squeeing, 100%-positive and yet not really -descriptive- rave recs/reviews of fics make me cringe. No, I lie. I hate them. I REALLY HATE THEM A LOT. RAAAAGE. (Ok, no.)
EDIT - to clarify: by "review" I don't mean feedback, I mean it in the "movie review" sense.
Not only that, they make me violently dislike both the reviewer and the fic, even if I -adore- the fic in question. I have to really bite my lip and repeat to myself "I love this fic, I -love- this fic, remember I -love- this fic!" so that I don't just write an anti-rec right back detailing all the flaws I can possibly think of (there are always some! Jeez!). I realize this is easily seen as hypocritical, considering how excited I get over fics. Still, I could -swear- I've never given what I'd consider pat compliments: Oh, this is great, genius, wonderful, beautiful, amazing. I've never called anyone "extremely talented" or even talented. I've never raved about how worthy someone/something is of their popularity or thought any fic -should- be popular as a sign of its greatness. Of course, I'm sort of elitist and snobbish like that :>
I've never guarranteed anyone would have to like a fic. That just -really- pisses me off. How could anyone assume -any- piece of writing is soooo great, -everyone- has to love it? My god, what arrogance! Not only that, it just feels like advertising to me. I hate advertising, in case that isn't clear. I hate it with all the passion of a thousand burning hells. Nothing rubs me the wrong way like a rave review that could easily apply to -any- fic out of hundreds. Saying only nondescript, gushy things about a truly good, visceral piece of writing just... deadens it.
I actually can't stand reading most positive reviews, though I'm almost always highly entertained by negative ones (they're usually funny, at least). The words one uses in response should contain some tiny spark of inspiration, something that is reminiscent of the fic, otherwise the review is pointless because it doesn't actually -say- anything and all I get is "propaganda-propaganda-propaganda-propaganda". And as should be painfully obvious, I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally despise propaganda quite, quite a lot.
So I'm in this weird place where I'm semi-known for recs and reviews and yet I have very little respect for the practice of reccing & reviewing itself as is commonly practiced. In fact, 98% of all blurbs & mini-reviews and such annoy the living daylights out of me, especially if they're of fics I adore. First of all, if you act as if a fic is -perfect-, it takes away from its actual humanity, from its real worth. It's like, you're not using your brain, so why should I believe a word you say in response, and does that mean -I'm- not using my brain in loving it, too?
If I had time, I'd post a mini-list of all my favorite fics and say only critical things of them to show how much I love them. If one doesn't -think- or express one's feelings in any sort of creative manner, one is just a parrot, someone who likes the shiny thing without really being capable of seeing its true beauty. I think to an extent, the readers help define the fic-- that is to say, if brainless zombies like a fic, you wonder how good can it possibly be. On the other hand, if eloquent, thoughtful people like the fic, one feels the worth of the fic itself is thus elevated.
Because of this, I realized I have a creed-- a set of ethics as a reviewer:
- Never use hyperbole-- say how it affects you in the most direct yet descriptive way possible; pretend you're talking to a skeptic if it helps. Said skeptic will laugh every time you use more than one adjective per sentence.
- Never project your own response onto others-- confine yourself to detailing your own thoughts, leave others to form their own opinions; separate your kinks from those of others and keep it in mind when describing the merits of a fic.
- Never push a fic onto others as if it's a drug-- separate your own excitement and your actual full response to the work.
- Objectivity isn't just for dinner anymore: try it, it works! Don't do the writer or the work the disservice of pretending they've attained perfection: there is no need to be negative, but please refrain from overindulging in the "bestseller syndrome", where mass hysteria passes for literary worth. Treat the writer as "a writer", and the work as "a work", as best you can.
*wankwankwankwank*
Squeeing, 100%-positive and yet not really -descriptive- rave recs/reviews of fics make me cringe. No, I lie. I hate them. I REALLY HATE THEM A LOT. RAAAAGE. (Ok, no.)
EDIT - to clarify: by "review" I don't mean feedback, I mean it in the "movie review" sense.
Not only that, they make me violently dislike both the reviewer and the fic, even if I -adore- the fic in question. I have to really bite my lip and repeat to myself "I love this fic, I -love- this fic, remember I -love- this fic!" so that I don't just write an anti-rec right back detailing all the flaws I can possibly think of (there are always some! Jeez!). I realize this is easily seen as hypocritical, considering how excited I get over fics. Still, I could -swear- I've never given what I'd consider pat compliments: Oh, this is great, genius, wonderful, beautiful, amazing. I've never called anyone "extremely talented" or even talented. I've never raved about how worthy someone/something is of their popularity or thought any fic -should- be popular as a sign of its greatness. Of course, I'm sort of elitist and snobbish like that :>
I've never guarranteed anyone would have to like a fic. That just -really- pisses me off. How could anyone assume -any- piece of writing is soooo great, -everyone- has to love it? My god, what arrogance! Not only that, it just feels like advertising to me. I hate advertising, in case that isn't clear. I hate it with all the passion of a thousand burning hells. Nothing rubs me the wrong way like a rave review that could easily apply to -any- fic out of hundreds. Saying only nondescript, gushy things about a truly good, visceral piece of writing just... deadens it.
I actually can't stand reading most positive reviews, though I'm almost always highly entertained by negative ones (they're usually funny, at least). The words one uses in response should contain some tiny spark of inspiration, something that is reminiscent of the fic, otherwise the review is pointless because it doesn't actually -say- anything and all I get is "propaganda-propaganda-propaganda-propaganda". And as should be painfully obvious, I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally despise propaganda quite, quite a lot.
So I'm in this weird place where I'm semi-known for recs and reviews and yet I have very little respect for the practice of reccing & reviewing itself as is commonly practiced. In fact, 98% of all blurbs & mini-reviews and such annoy the living daylights out of me, especially if they're of fics I adore. First of all, if you act as if a fic is -perfect-, it takes away from its actual humanity, from its real worth. It's like, you're not using your brain, so why should I believe a word you say in response, and does that mean -I'm- not using my brain in loving it, too?
If I had time, I'd post a mini-list of all my favorite fics and say only critical things of them to show how much I love them. If one doesn't -think- or express one's feelings in any sort of creative manner, one is just a parrot, someone who likes the shiny thing without really being capable of seeing its true beauty. I think to an extent, the readers help define the fic-- that is to say, if brainless zombies like a fic, you wonder how good can it possibly be. On the other hand, if eloquent, thoughtful people like the fic, one feels the worth of the fic itself is thus elevated.
Because of this, I realized I have a creed-- a set of ethics as a reviewer:
- Never use hyperbole-- say how it affects you in the most direct yet descriptive way possible; pretend you're talking to a skeptic if it helps. Said skeptic will laugh every time you use more than one adjective per sentence.
- Never project your own response onto others-- confine yourself to detailing your own thoughts, leave others to form their own opinions; separate your kinks from those of others and keep it in mind when describing the merits of a fic.
- Never push a fic onto others as if it's a drug-- separate your own excitement and your actual full response to the work.
- Objectivity isn't just for dinner anymore: try it, it works! Don't do the writer or the work the disservice of pretending they've attained perfection: there is no need to be negative, but please refrain from overindulging in the "bestseller syndrome", where mass hysteria passes for literary worth. Treat the writer as "a writer", and the work as "a work", as best you can.
*wankwankwankwank*
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-30 02:51 pm (UTC)Clearly this morning I shouldn't have read or posted to LJ at all; I wrote no end of dumb and poorly-constructed things that caused ill feeling in several places (not just with you on this thread).
*Wonders if I insulted you last night, too, because it wasn't my intention in either place.*
Here, I had in mind the way that the 'venting' and 'snarking' discussion was veering toward hints about fics that are beneath contempt and moving toward what I took to be a sort of celebration of shared superiority over the undiscerning masses. Reading back up the thread a minute ago to find some support for that interpretation of the discussion, I couldn't really isolate a smoking gun, so I was obviously more tetchy and blind and pavlovian than I realized this morning. In any case, as I was writing that, it was not you I thought I was describing. (In fact, you were up thread as the voice of wisdom reminding Aja about the potential consequences of 'closed-post' venting.)
As far as your right to review and dislike fic that others like (and your experience of being attacked for having the audacity to dislike something adored by millions), I'll die for your right to do that so long as you have put forward your reasons for the negative view -- which is precisely what you do. I attempted to do this in my discussion of my issues with two of the fics that had been mentioned in the thread ('Just This' and 'Empty Chairs'). I don't have a problem with any of us discussing the reasons we find a particular fic to be flawed or offensive or incoherent or bland. (Obviously, I also sympathize with the impulse to just not put oneself forward for another round of kicking by those who enjoy kicking critics.)
That paragraph of mine about academic and non-academic elitism is an example of why those who put forward unsupported generalizations ought to be hunted down and tortured for the harm they do. (*raises hand and lines up for punishment*) I apologize that it pissed you off, not only because it wasn't my intention, but because it happened as a result of my being too unfocused to properly explain what I meant.
There's one other thing I think I must need to clarify (because I can't quite see how you reached the conclusion that I had you in mind in that paragraph if you did not also take my reference to you earlier in the post counter to my intention). When I was discussing my dislike of review boards because they let others read my immediate, off-the-cuff, just-clicked-the-link-after-reading-it response to a chapter or ficlet, I confessed to Aja that I'm sort of haunted by her having said that it was that sort of 'review' of mine that lured her into a fic she hated.
I said, in that regard, that I imagined she felt a similar pang when you told her you disliked the stories she'd recced. I posited that this pang was likely intensified by the fact that she respects your opinion. Do you realize that I respect your opinion as well? I also respect your writing, though you've made that more accessible just as I've moved temporarily to a place where fic reading is absolutely off-limits. We haven't interacted at all in a long time, which on my part was because I respected your decision to step away from the wearisome stuff (like this?) in fandom. However, the vehemence of your reaction here made me wonder whether you imagine mine to have been a hostile silence.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 02:14 am (UTC)Actually you came up in conversation on IM the other day, and we were all talking about how extraordinarily nice you are. I moved to a locked LJ last year simply because I was burnt out and overwhelmed and my LJ had become popular enough that I didn't feel I could give my honest opinion of fics any more, out of fear of hurting folks' feelings. And (as you will see me explain below), I didn't want to lie, either. Also, of course, there were some folks whom I wanted to avoid -- and still do! -- but you were never one of them. *pets more*
My problem with your post on this thread was with this: Status is gained and maintained by convincing others that one is smarter/more discerning/more skilled/more bold than those who receive the stupid adulation of the uncritical masses. And there were a couple of lines elsewhere, but I don't want to run this topic into the ground.
You have to realize that ever since I dared to say I didn't like DT and IP, among other "big" fics, these authors and/or their
minionsfriends have been calling me jealous, elitist, a crappy overly-stylized writer who is only into the self-indulgent angst, someone who is trying to be cool by self-consciously going against the crowd ... etc. etc. etc. ad infinitum.So this is a touchy subject for me, because these are attacks on my critical integrity. And while liking or disliking fics is a question of taste, whether or not a person's review is honest is a pretty black-and-white issue. I'm in academia like you, so I'm sure you can understand that I take the principle of being critical but fair very seriously. When I evaluate a fic, I am not acting out of personal vendetta or snobbery or anything else. If I didn't like popular fics or authors, then why would I like Aja, Amanuensis, Cybele, etc. etc. etc.?
Anyway. What I am saying is: allusions to reviews being motivated by elitism or status drive me bonkers. Hence the vehemence of my post. It was not personal, believe me.
Moving on:
hints about fics that are beneath contempt and moving toward what I took to be a sort of celebration of shared superiority over the undiscerning masses.
Look, I cannot think of a more fervent consumer of junk culture than myself. I love Adam Sandler movies, for Chrissakes. Meg Ryan in French Kiss made me cry! MAN OH MAN! :D
It is precisely out of the desire to rec the, let's say, Adam Sandler and Meg Ryan movies of ff.net that makes it important for me to distinguish between these kinds of fun fics and writing that sets higher ambitions for itself. (Not to say that there aren't amazing "fun fics" -- I want to tell you to go read Jitterbug, but alas you can't! -- and really poorly-done artsy ones, of course. And 90% of the time, I would much rather read the former category than the latter one, in any event.) Basically, I want to judge the fic on its own merits, and the only way I can make these merits clear, as a reccer, is by taking the time to describe the fic in a line or two. That way, if somebody doesn't like it, I don't have to read it as an attack on my own judgment, but just an attack on that kind of a fic.
x
no subject
Date: 2003-10-02 02:15 am (UTC)This is what I was trying to get across to Aja (you might want to take a look at the above thread). I thought that Aja's self-protective strategy was in fact leaving her more vulnerable to critique. Reccing ain't about the reccer, it's just about giving fics you like or love the chance at a wider audience. So it pays to present them in a way that will allow the readers to pre-screen out the kinds of fics they are only going to dislike, anyway.
Anyway, I think that what both Reenka and I were initially protesting is just the fandom mentality within which even gentle negative feedback is seen as flaming, and hyperbole is the required form of communication. I mean, we all want to be told that we're brilliant and perfect, but I think it's worth having something to strive towards, too. Which is why using the same adjectives to describe something like -- off the top of my head -- Dahlia and the author of Just This?, for example, isn't fair to either one of them.
*wipes sweat off forehead*
Whew!
And now I'm so curious I'm going to have to look at Empty Chairs.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-03 12:20 am (UTC)I dunno, maybe that Empty Chairs story gets really crappy later on, but I read the first chapter and liked it fine!
*hangs head ashamedly*
*runs back to continue*
HAHAHHAHAAHAAA
Date: 2003-10-03 01:54 am (UTC)Yeah, there are a couple of problems, but I love defeated!Draco and evil!Dumbledore and Harry being all selfish and Draco being all prostituted and .....
wheee! *head swirls dizzily*
And the writing, with the exception of the clunky flashback dialogue, is really quite lovely in places, I think.
Thanks for hooking me up. :D :D :D
Re: HAHAHHAHAAHAAA
Date: 2003-10-03 02:34 am (UTC)Sounds as though you either think it's a deliberate send-up of H/D hurt-comfort plots or find it works that way for you despite its serious intentions.
It doesn't matter why: glad you had fun with it. Have you said whether you love, hate, love-to-hate 'Just This'?
Is 'Empty Chairs/Tables' finished yet?
I've got to go. I can't even read the new things in the thread properly, but I couldn't resist answering this.
Re: HAHAHHAHAAHAAA
Date: 2003-10-03 09:41 am (UTC)I thought Just This was crap.
But you know, I love it when Draco is being Defeated and Abused (and, not incidentally, Whored).
I've just finished Chapter 9, and now he is back at Hogwarts, still being Harry's slut and dealing with everyone hating him. I have 3 more chapters to go.
I'm not so much about hurt/comfort as I am just about hurt. I really, really love torturing Draco. He bleeds so prettily. In fact, my problems with the characterization have more to do with him being all noble in the flashback scenes. I like him better when he's snivelling.
To be honest, if I hadn't started reading this fic in the context of this discussion I would probably be pimping it madly.
Anyway I'm going to paste in my reasons for liking it, which I had to torture poor Aja with.
I mean, there are definitely some problems with it (esp. the dialogue in the flashback scenes), but I'm enjoying it. And I've had more than one idea for a Dumbledore-exploits-Draco-and-Harry-finds-out-about-it fic of my own, so this premise works for me. I think that Draco is more gullible than we realize, in some ways.
And there are a couple of gorgeous moments with the language (like at the beginning, when Draco is unconscious and injured at Harry's, and keeps turning from human into falcon without realizing it). Yeah.
Anyway, I just got to the end of the trial and am plunging ahead. Maybe the problem is that I never saw Harry and Draco as equals? I always think that Harry will have the upper hand and it's only Harry's sense of fair play that gives Draco any chance at all. And still, Harry isn't perfect (i.e. fucking the second they get back to Harry's apartment. Hell yeah!)
Now I've read further and I see just how not-perfect Harry is. And this does it for me. Oh hell yes.
I can't emphasize how much I love HURTING DRACO. :D