... -.-

[reenka]

All right, so....

How is one meant to deal with people's stupidity without actually biting their head off and/or becoming a bitter bitch who hates everyone--?

I mean, I love everyone (er, in theory-- well, I mean, non-practically speaking... yes, this makes sense to me okay) and am patient (when it's just about thought), just... all from afar. Very, very far. When faced with actual folly, I blow up and have the urge to start yelling, even worse because I actually am a quiet person who never yells. *sigh*

I know most people would just accept it. "Oh look, people are just being dense again, tralala who cares, onwards to the next manga." And... I dunno why it always strikes me again and again, as if it's never occurred to me before. Of course, this is the secret to my happiness as well, because I can easily re-experience joy for the first time also.

I want to yell about how stupid people are, but really, I am aware I'm the one who's being stupid here. I just want impossible things. I want people to think more, and... I dunno, I want them to not hurt my brain by following their logic. Really, what needs to change here is me, not them, because it's not their responsibility to make my brain feel more comfortable, but. I just. This is why I avoid people, I guess... so easily frustrated.... No way of reconciling my own level of understanding with a lesser one without going bonkers. Also why I sort of lose it if I'm misunderstood too much. I should never be a teacher.
    Ironically, of course I have an internship/job at the design office at campus teaching an html workshop. *facepalm* And I hope you understand, none of this is actually intended to mean I'm certain I'm right-- just that regardless of what I theoretically know is possible or likely (ie, that I'm at least partly wrong and the other people may also have a point I'm not acknowledging though usually I -see- it, dammit, behind the huge error they'd made), my gut reactions remain.

I mean, my last boyfriend, my biggest issue with him was that he didn't automatically 'get' everything about me, and... I mean, he got 95% of everything which is more than most people get by far, and yet it wasn't enough. Really maybe I'm just high-strung -.-

Perhaps this sort of easily set-off attitude actually comes through unintentionally on lj and this is why people think I'm scary and/or don't talk to me that much. Or something. *sigh* Yeah, that's probably true, isn't it. I mean, I don't precisely -hide- that I'm hard on certain things/ideas (though I swear, it's people's ideas that piss me off, nothing personal-- I really do separate people & ideas even if other people don't)-- so I guess maybe I come off as threatening/annoying but not in a direct enough way so that people would confront me but are rather okay just avoiding me as I avoid them. Er. Or maybe I'm overthinking it. Again. ^^;;;;

I mean, I don't think I'm intolerant, really. I just see faulty reasoning, no matter -what- the actual thought is, and react as if burnt. It's not like I can't be disagreed with-- that'd be easier to filter for, if anything, 'cause I could be more careful to only talk to people I agree with (to actually be elitist). But the problem is actually that it doesn't matter if I agree with you or not, if you seem to miss -seeing- (not agreeing with-- that doesn't matter) a point I think is important. It's that 'not seeing' that drives me insane. When I see and others don't see. It's like red cloth to a bull. A very silent yet stewing bull who avoids the red cloth altogether and goes home to rant. That would be me.

Somehow, I don't think expressing my feelings out loud to the people involved is the answer, 'cause then people -would- actually hate me and it would be no use anyway. Le sigh.

Comments

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

How is one meant to deal with people's stupidity without actually biting their head off and/or becoming a bitter bitch who hates everyone--?

Probably, but I haven't found it yet. Be a bull then get over it. You'll probably live longer by getting it out of your system than stewing over it in rants. Well, that and I respect people more who do such things up front than passive-aggressiveness and pussies, so I'm terribly biased.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I do feel better after ranting, though ^^;; And there are -so many- people who frustrate me that I can't really point fingers at them ALL, and like I said, I dunno what that would accomplish without an in-depth drawn-out discussion I don't tend to want to get into.... Like, I realize -I'm- overreacting and they're not out of line, so what right have I to confront them--? Y'know?

I don't want to always value directness and honesty over common sense, even if politeness alone doesn't interest me. I would comment directly if I thought it would matter or was worthwhile, but in the end the problem is mine rather than anyone else's, y'know. I do get it out of my system-- which is why I don't hate everyone yet-- but it's also why it always hits me anew regularly -.-

I'll try to comment more, heh ^^;;;;
I figure that commenting in general is less a question of um, good will or whatever and more having something to say and therefore saying it, though.....

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Like, I realize -I'm- overreacting and they're not out of line, so what right have I to confront them--?

The same right as everyone else on the planet. Maybe you should excercise it sometime.

but in the end the problem is mine rather than anyone else's

Other people's stupidity is your problem?

I figure that commenting in general is less a question of um, good will or whatever and more having something to say and therefore saying it, though...

If that's the case, explain to me why you friend people whose journals you pretty much never comment on?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, since -I'm- overreacting, it's really my problem.... But to confront people needlessly solves nothing, especially if it's a -lot- of people and -more- stress for me to do so (I get even more stressed out/unhappy with more prolonged exposure to uh-- people who frustrate me). Merely getting it out of my system would be impossible 'cause I listen to people's points against my will, almost, and cannot stop thinking about what pretty much anyone says in response, so it's more calming to be alone and rant more privately, see. Interpersonal contact of any nature tends to be difficult for me if I don't know/like the person, but conflict... that I just couldn't handle on any frequent basis without snapping. I'm... er... sensitive?

So it's not that other people's stupidity is my problem, but rather that it's not and therefore involving myself in discussions with them seems counterproductive....

I friend people I find interesting or like some of the posts of, or people I want to see my (semi-rare) locked entries. The skimming thing also has the purpose of me -sort of- keeping up with people and having some clue what's going on with them, I guess--? Almost no one on my flist writes fic I wanna read anymore (mostly 'cause most of them don't write much HP fic anymore, period) or draws much anymore (ie, Glock, Duckpuppy-- well, there used to be others). I used to comment a lot on meta but don't partly 'cause there's not much meta on my flist (besides Sister M) and partly 'cause I'm just burnt out on fandom and meta in specific and daily_snitch drives me mad. So yeah, when someone draws something I just -adore- or one of my old time favorites writes H/D, I (usually) either read it or put it in my 'to-read' folder. I still haven't gotten to Maya's new fic, and I mean, I -love- Maya's writing-- so it's really fandom burn-out, in the end, and lots of journals I'd friended back in the day when I was still semi-active.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Well, since -I'm- overreacting, it's really my problem.

How do you know you're overreacting?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heh, it's that super-sekrit internal bullshit-detector that tells me I really care -waaaay- too much about people's half-assed opinions about HP fanfic and such, I guess... heh. In other words, it's not as if I think any of this stuff is, um, important, and also... like, the -amount- which it bothers me is definitely a sign of over-investment.

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

Also...

Perhaps this sort of easily set-off attitude actually comes through unintentionally on lj and this is why people think I'm scary and/or don't talk to me that much.

Well, just an idea, but if you comment on other people's LJs as much as you do on mine, they may not feel that it's worth their time and energy. A bit of reciprocation goes a long way.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, well... er. -.-;;;
I've been commenting a lot less for months now 'cause I only skim my flist at best... I actually don't know -whose- I comment on regularly anymore. Hmm o_0 Well, back when I left lots of comments I didn't really get much more than I do now... I think? And specifically the people I do comment on don't tend to necessarily be the ones who comment here most ^^;;;

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...it is again hard to say without knowing the specific things. What I have done in the past is sometimes just respond to something I think is crazy or stupid as if it's totally reasonable, and then just take it apart piece by piece. But that might be my strange habit. Other times I just argue it to myself.:-)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It's that stuff on Aja's journal where people semi-randomly list authors they like or think are cool as a way of saying 'this is outside fanon', while showing no sign they actually know much about the breadth of HP fic out there to compare it to.... So just the usual frustration with people's half-assed ideas of what's original, IC, non-fanon, etc in this fandom. When someone lists a fic that's well-written but very fanon as unique and unprecedented and/or characterized in a surprising way somehow just because they're 'adults'(??) or just an author they like as if that implies overall semi-objective value.... argh.

But none of this is something I -could- take apart because it's based on extensive secondary knowledge it'd really be a bother to share with all the people involved and really just depends on them reading the damn fics themselves. And also actually thinking about what the question is.

Also, sad to say, I'm nowhere near the master of logical, concise-- hah-- argument that you are, so I just muddle along, ahahaha. :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Ah! Yeah, I couldn't think of anything to contribute because it just seemed like it had no answer--and yet of course I knew it would just get a list of everyone's favorite. (Not that it was a dumb question at all, I just didn't think it could be answered.) Everyone's characterizations are, to begin with, based on canon, so how can you talk about the originality anyway? It's hard for me to imagine a version of a character that isn't some version of the fanon model, and it doesn't have to do with fanon contamination for me so much as just..yeah, that's one way you're going to look at the character. It's sort of like if you were talking about meta and said that so-and-so had a really *unique* take on the character I would assume it was a wrong take, you know? Even if many people in fandom agreed with it. If it's right it should just make you say yes, I see that too instead of "Wow! You're creative!" Sort of the same thing with fanfic. I've read lots of fanfic that I liked and where I really liked what an author did with a character, but I don't usually look for originality, exactly. Even characterizations I've really liked of a character I've had problems with--actually, I can think of one that I really liked that in the end I almost was wary of because it seemed like it was trying too hard to be not be a different kind of fanon, if that makes sense. Like it started to feel artificial becuase it was avoiding stuff usually considered artificial.

I've definitely stopped being amazed at what people will call "In Character." Sometimes it's something that's blatantly fanon--myself I sometimes get more annoyed by the sort of thing I described above, where somebody thinks that doing the opposite of the hated fanon version of something is being IC. It's just so hard to do since canon is right there and not like any of it, you know? I suspect the fics I like are more the ones that are obviously commenting on the text than trying to fill in.

You know, I think that's actually kind of a thing I do straight down the line is liking things that are sort of blatantly saying this is fandom-generated rather than this is canon, if that makes sense.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

I suspect the fics I like are more the ones that are obviously commenting on the text than trying to fill in.


Thank you, I have to go mull this over now. Very nice insight and not one I've ever thought about before regarding fanfic of choice. I think I'm very much inclined to agree with you.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Everyone's characterizations are, to begin with, based on canon
....Ahahah, I would take issue with this (if anything, 'cause for the longest while -mine- weren't except in the most indirect of senses), but I see what you're getting at ;) It's just... well, a lot of times they really aren't, not even indirectly, except for a similar environment & the names being the same. For serious, a lot of people's Draco makes me wonder what evil Harlequin character took over the poor boy's soul... and then ate it and spat it out. :>

I agree there's no real answer (which I sort of implied in my own comment because I kept getting side-tracked by stylistic originality because I really couldn't find any characterization that was both outside fanon & somehow 'original' or unique or consistent or what have you). However, I think it's possible to be uniquely right to some extent, just rare-- like, I think Silvia and Breed (and say, Ste) are both right and write IC!Draco and yet are all pretty different, y'know? Ste is actually a great example of someone who's read a lot of fanon and yet writes like no one else... but then, that's at least partly a style thing, again.

I know what you mean about agreeing with a characterization vs. thinking it's 'creative'-- though sometimes stories can surprise you and sort of, um, sell themselves to you, I guess? I find that a good fic will do that particularly well. I'm a grand believer that you can go with nearly any characterization -if- you build up to it and sell it believably, and of course next to no one does that. However, 'originality' per se is sort of a funny term to use about fanfic in general, of course--- though I think it's possible to be outside fanon in its most glaring incarnation even if you're not original in respect to canon-- I mean, you usually go with one or the other, though the absolute -best- fanfic (to me) is the one that synthesizes canon & its own fanon with flickers of other influences to produce something-- surprising yet satisfying. This is generally a question of the quality of the writing itself rather than the characterization per se however, I believe....

I think fanon itself annoys me whether or not it thinks it's not being fanon, if that makes sense~:) Purposeful fanon is okay if it's tongue-in-cheek and/or ironic or comedic in some sense, but serious twisting of a character especially with the purpose to glorify.... Well, we all know how I feel about fanon!Draco, no need to go into my desire to disembowel him and burn all fics containing him yet again~:)) I think that's less a hatred of fanon and a love of canon and more a hatred of fanon!Draco and that particular archetype/stereotype being admired/liked by Harry. It's like... personal to me. But then I also really hate it when you have weepy soldiers or flowery declarations of love from cops or, HELLO, HARRY BLOODY POTTER WAKING UP ONE DAY TO DECIDE MALFOY IS OMG SO COOL WITH HIS MYSTERIOUS SLYTHERIN WAYS. *sigh*

I think I like fics that comment on the text in specific ways (like, I don't like fics the entire purpose of which is to disprove the 'hegemony' of the text-- like, though I like Ste's writing, my god, does she ALWAYS have to take everything Harry cares about apart from Draco away from him??!?) I've never sought out 'fill-in' fics (I mean, god, I write H/D, how many of those -are- there-- 3??!), but at the same time I'm pissed by the obvious anti-canon fics because they're OOC and unbelievable as the Harlequin rip-offs.

I just want something that's fanon-generated but -incorporating- canon as a starting point in some way. Is that so hard?? Argh, fandom. Argh.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

....Ahahah, I would take issue with this (if anything, 'cause for the longest while -mine- weren't except in the most indirect of senses),

Aha! But I'm including the indirect sense. His name, his world, his background. Even the Harlequinized Dracos, as far from canon as they get, are jumping off of some of his vital statistics. There's a reason they're picking him rather than Ron to put in their story, even if it's just the hair. Something in the character inspired them to write...whatever they wrote.

I mean, you usually go with one or the other, though the absolute -best- fanfic (to me) is the one that synthesizes canon & its own fanon with flickers of other influences to produce something-- surprising yet satisfying. This is generally a question of the quality of the writing itself rather than the characterization per se however, I believe....

Yeah, I think so too. I mean, let's face it, the people who write good X-character probably are good writers, period. Or they just have interesting ways of looking at characters that they put in their writings. *All* the characters are going to be filtered through that fic writer's sensibilities, so you know everybody's personalities are going to sort of work around whichever one bothers you.

I think that anti-canon is probably just one of the main uses of fanfic, really. Like I remember this one very bitter woman in XF fandom that wrote Scully/Krycek and really, she just hated Mulder. Hated him. So the whole point of the pairing was that Mulder found out and felt betrayed--which was right of Scully to do because TAKE THAT, MULDER! And sure if I actually read these I'd probably think, WTF? but it did make sense to me as something somebody would write as fanfic because that's probably what she thinks when she watches the show. For her, that was what M/S was about.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

<3

why don'y you expand on this, just because i love hearing talk about myself.

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Man, I think there's no magic way except patience. Some people have it (and thus make good teachers to slower people) and some people don't. My Mother--who lacks patience with people who don't "get" things, especially daughters who whine that she is being unclear--claims that this is part of the horrible burden one must bear for being very intelligent.

On the other hand, at some point, that idiot will be/is/was you. So (espec in fandom) I tend towards head-shaking and fuzzy feelings of nostalgia for my own stupidities (all long past of *course*).

And I was about to be all "click away," but if you even have the personality to be "in fandom" online, you care about this stuff more than most people, and you know that whole "don't care so much about it"--you've written it up already. So, just to deal practically: 1. visit another fandom (or read a book/watch movie/dinner with friends)--a nice context-giving thing to do, or if you can't do that 2. harness this annoyance/anger for good. Use the drive to write/draw/create something fic-ish. Picking over the bones of old arguments and regurgitating meta will only get you so far... as you've found.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

hahahaha, or i could have just read this comment first and spared myself a rant, though i think the rant was more a venting for my own sake than Reena's. Oh, Alice! I heart thee.

*chink*

[cellia.livejournal.com]

^_^

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee, see, this is why I ♥ your advice in general, ficcish or not-- you totally say things that are reasonable and right and of course I knew that, but somehow it's reassuring to hear it from you. If that makes sense. Yes.:>

And I knoooow, and I -have- no patience. *facepalm* Strategy #2 (avoidance/distraction) does work, and I mean, I -have- been avoiding HP fandom and distracting myself with shiny things, but it doesn't make me any more ready to deal with Teh Stupid when it happens, and of course I can't avoid it forever. On the other hand, it's not like the whole 'well, we are superior, we must suffer' attitude works for me either (much as my own Mother also espouses it, ahah, though without the addition of me being slow... actually I can't think of a single time I haven't 'gotten' something she said... well, me not getting thing sis a rare occurance in general, though my father used to go on about how dumb I was when I was like, 6).

I totally go with the fuzzy feelings as long as I don't have to deal with people actively being dense right in front of me. Then all distance/perspective flies out the window and I start growling to myself ^^;;;;

And I've done both things with this frustration-- am creative or avoidant-- in my time, yeah, but I can't do it every time, but of course you said there's no magic way, which of course there isn't. Perhaps it's a question of totally avoiding any discussion that might set me off... but at the same time, I'm -interested- in them. *sigh* And it's not just fandom, I'm just easily irritated by people in general. I have never really had problems understanding things. Er. -.- Even math, when finally explained well.... -.- It's actually not helpful with relating to other people or like, living in society, though. Or like, anything, really. Not that I'm omg-genius, but I just tend to not make stupid mistakes that aren't driven by emotion or tiredness or flippantness or whatever. Er. ^^;;;;;

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Perhaps it's a question of totally avoiding any discussion that might set me off... but at the same time, I'm -interested- in them.

I remember someone commenting once that in Chinese BL fandom people didn't really write essays or do meta, but if they had an argument/idea they'd write a story to push it. Yeah, I know a good story is more than a narrative around an argument, but some of my fav and easiest-done pictures were done as direct reactions to people saying something I disagreed with. Basically "oh, so you think *that*? Well, let me *show* you my pov." And for evil-mastermind purposes, a mediocre, but engaging story will change more hearts and minds than a brilliantly reasoned essay.

Yeah, it's just me pushing the creative option again, but I think you need to stop beating your head against the wall. Smash/scale it (creative) or walk away (avoidance).

Of course, there's always option 3: vent in private to people who won't take offense or get hurt :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

If I had to boil down the advice most of my friends online give me to one sentence, it's: stop whining and write more, Reena! Ahaha, and I definitely appreciate that, and wrote 'The Evolution Principle' in that spirit-- as well as many another fic, ehehe-- but, y'know, blocked and restless, etc etc :D

I totally realize your ultimate wisdom :D I think I'm a lot closer to some sort of resolution than I have been for ages, though I suspect I can't walk away entirely without finishing my damn novella-- or two, ahahah. I still want you to beta that, btw, eheheh. And yeah, I'd probably wanna scale it a lot more if I didn't feel so alone in that quest these days, what with most of my old-time homies on to greener pastures. At the same time, this is really a problem on a larger scale than just fandom too, you know. Alas. But being creative and avoidant, I'm right on those, possibly a little -too- much :D

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Good luck, man. Good luck. <33

I mean to start getting creative art-wise or whatever myself one of these days too. RL is just taking most of that energy for now. Sadly, I have nowhere near your passion it seems.

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

IS ANY OF THIS MY FAULT? JUST CHECKING SAKJFLASDFS. *HURRIES BACK TO FEVERISH CHECKING OF THE FRIENDS LIST*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Of course it's not your fault for just proving a forum for people who frustrate me~:))

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

ooh, have i? WHO IS FRUSTRATING YOU I MUST KNOW. So I can actually go read their comments, omg i have no time. :((

I was sort of :-< that my post was linked to H_T because I knew it would mean I'd have people coming over from there, and not everybody really reads in such situations. Like. The headline they tagged it with was "who writes out of the box?" which wasn't really what I was asking at all, or at least, didn't bother explaining what the box was in this instance.

You know, *jumping topics*, I have a huge huge lifelong problem with getting too invested in things and having a really hard time dealing with people not seeing things how I see. This has been surfacing in a major way for me over the last two weeks because I have been dealing with issues of prejudice in our tutoring center. This means that I have been dealing not only with my own overbearingness regarding this issue but with all the lifelong frustration I ever felt about this growing up in the south. Which has led to the fact that in some cases no matter how much I want someone to feel and see the way I do, my passionate exhortations, you know me, are only exacerbating the problem. You cannot, you cannot change the way people think by telling them how they should think. You can only let them have experiences that contradict their viewpoints, and allow them to change their thinking on their own.

This does apply to your situation, in a very direct way. Tolerance of people and tolerance of a viewpoint is not the same thing. But no one can reach someone else by implying that they know more than the other person, that the other person is just unenlightened or not thinking critically enough. Even if the person isn't thinking critically enough, we can't tell them how or do it for them. We can show them, and give them opportunities to, but after a while, we have to acknowledge the boundary between teaching them how and doing it for them.

In essence, as I've been realizing this week with regards to my own levels of frustration where this problem of racism is concerned, and how to be adamantly opposed to racism in my classroom without being so belligerently against it that the kids who are practicing it completely tuning out forever, my own personal level of frustration is proportionate to the level of caution I need to show when voicing that frustration to the people who are causing it. Because it's not the *people*, it is the *ideology* itself. And even though I know that in my mind, to the people who are hearing my views, it can easily, easily turn into me attacking them, which is the last thing I want.

So, all fortnight long I have been receiving lessons in the fact that speaking tolerance goes both ways--I need to speak tolerantly, and encouragingly, to everyone, even when I hold the firm belief that their views and opinions are illogical, stupid, or abhorrent.

And just because our issues are different, fanfic v/s prejudice, doesn't mean that the methodology needs to be.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heh, well, it was generally anyone who just answered with a list of their favorites and especially fics that basically had -no- relevance to the actual question or real context provided, and yes that SohW reference REALLY FUCKING PISSED ME OFF, that having more to do with me now hating that fic (moreso 'cause it's so popular and beloved by the H/D fandom at large and held up as a standard than any, uh, specific feelings, even). Sort of like people get pissed off when anyone raves about the great IC Draco that is DT!Draco. Or something, I dunno. But yeah, it was just the flood of people not reading/thinking, really, nothing that specific.

When you put it like that-- as a problem with people 'not seeing things how I see'-- that disturbs me a lot more because, well, I don't have a problem with differing opinions or beliefs, y'know? I'm pretty laid back about reconciling contradictory beliefs within myself, forget others. It is merely awareness I'm after, though that's trickier to define; at least, that's what I mean by 'seeing'. The lines do blur, of course-- like, I get enraged by prejudice and such and want to punch people and that's disagreeing with opinions, now isn't it....

I know what you mean about letting people have 'the experience', however; in fact, it's my deep appreciation of my utter inability to convince people that leads me to be so frustrated and morose. In the end, I'm not a confrontational person anyway, so I -wouldn't- confront unless I was 100% certain it would help or 100% pissed off beyond all belief (and... that like, never happens-- and thank god, I haven't yet gone insane and killed anyone, either-- yeah, it's the quiet ones, ahahah). So for me, it's frustration with powerlessness and my own uselessness as much as anything-- and I know it takes patience, and of course patience is one of those things I have for anything -but- dealing with people in large quantities. As in, I can be pretty good with just one person when there's no serious conflict, but beyond that....

In the end, I feel I'd -like- to help people a lot, but at the same time-- my main motivation is so they'd stop bothering me with their faulty thinking-- as I said, it literally hurts me, burns me, affects me. My main feeling is just 'OOOWWW, MY BRAAAIIN, make it stop!!!' rather than 'I want to help', though that's also in there, y'know?

I do try to speak tolerantly/politely/calmly to the point that I -can't- confront people, though, and that in itself is what drives me up the wall. You -can- blow up and -actively- have to learn to hold yourself back, whereas I'm so used to holding myself back that it'd be a heroic trial for me to actually speak out in any remotely confrontational way, y'know? I'm always trapped by myself into a sort of passive resistance and avoidance, so basically people drive me insane without ever realizing it, or if they realize it, they don't know -just- how passionate I am feeling. So we're coming at this from opposite (complementary) sides, I think~:)

[cellia.livejournal.com]

A bit of a tangent, but I'm curious... have you had any luck getting anyone to "see the light" in any way with their prejudices? If so, how?

My own experience with my aunt and her on again/ off again husband seemed to show that you can only get at it sideways. And some "well if you believe this, then is that the same thing as this?" Progress was more "oh you really believed x all along, you just didn't realize it" rather than any acknowledged change.