~~ subversion aversion reversion....

[reenka]

All right, this is going to sound weird, but... this is part of my long-running issue with the idea of subversive literary criticism. I realize it's my issue and may have limited application, as such.

So. Is it actually possible to subvert a text (or a system, also) by trying to subvert it, or in other words, make it turn in on itself (contradict itself)? For instance, given that you're a fan who is really in the community because you want to change the accepted-- or implicit-- definition/meaning of the text, at least within your own writing. Given that you're not there to 'work with' but rather 'work against' the text while using its boundaries (which would translate to 'remaining in character' as best you could). Would it actually be possible to apply the idea of 'success' to this endeavor?
    Is there such a thing as 'success' at purposefully working against canon without attempting to create fanon? Can fanfiction hold some sort of direct dialogue with canon and act as an actual critique of it, and if so, is that even desirable to people who'd consider themselves fans or only people who in fact aren't fans, and would thus not want to read said fanfic?

My knee-jerk response seems to be 'no'. That is, I think that in order to hold such a dialogue with the original text, a fanfic writer would have to be both subversive and simultaneously(!) project their imagination to be part of the flow of canon. I believe you couldn't truly subvert without fully feeling out the shape of the source text-- understanding its biases, listening to its tones, accepting its idiosyncracies to some extent. I suppose I mean, you can't fully remake a 'parent' text on a certain level, because the readership will always be aware of the differences. You can't really subvert, can you, if it doesn't feel 'real'-- if the readers are just suspending their disbelief. If the fic doesn't read like a lost part of canon, basically.


In my Tolkien & Lewis class, we are allowed to write fanfic for our final project, and one of the stipulations of our professor's guidelines is that the story 'work with' the text. That is, she wants us to imitate the tone & language, and to have our fics really feel like they're part of that world. And since the general atmosphere is part of the world, one feels like to really write fic set in it, you'd have to adopt at least some aspect of the style of original portrayal. I'm not saying that's all that's worthwhile to do, since worth is naturally subjective, only that if the implicit goal is to set a fic in a borrowed world, you'd want to borrow as much as possible.

I think... this wouldn't concern me nearly as much if I didn't feel, with a sort of sinking sensation in my stomach, that nearly all the fic I've read in the HP fandom, -ever-, has been subversive in some way-- had set out to twist and play with canon (which is definitely fun) without a concurrent sense of also flowing along its lines. This goes beyond facts, precisely, and into atmosphere-- the feel of the original. So that when you read it, regardless of the quirks of the characters' behavior, you'd think, 'this is them! I am back there, in the world I love! I am back!' Admittedly, this is perhaps the most difficult thing a fan-writer could try to achieve, but it also seems that as a fan, it would be the most delightful.

And yeah, I realize that I'm talking about what sounds like 'genfic' through and through-- but boy, do I wish one could write slashfic & hetfic like that, too. It's the (good) comics-writer's model, really-- take an existing canon, write new issues with the past events/characterizations/styles in mind (hopefully), but expand to include new pairings, new adventures, new angles... like a hidden secret passage. Suddenly you think, oh my god, what if JK Rowling meant for this to happen? I totally thought this with slash sometimes-- like with Miss Breed's `Red', and Aspen's writing (hahaha!!). So like, you could have tricksy subversion that works by popping up when you've already decided 'oh good, danger's past'. That'd be so cool.

Comments

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

It's probably not surprising that this is something I've thought about a great deal, particlarly since my personal writing style is about 50,000 miles away from JKR's. I'm not sure what I think about it.

Because on one hand, I'm very picky about characterization and on the other I'm not really picky about, say, writing style or atmosphere? And to some degree this may be a result of the subject matter I choose: there's more room for deviation in the 70's or with the adult generation than the trio's because we know less about them, and we can always say, well the 70's WERE dark, so maybe that darker tone is appropriate, or well, Harry's 15, so the atmosphere of the world seen through his eyes will always differ from the atmosphere seen through, say, Snape's.

And I think that's a big issue there, because if you're writing with a similar style or atmosphere to JKR's, and you're writing from Snape's POV, you're going to be writing OOC, really.

Which, I guess, is why I end up writing/reading stuff that, while characterized well and accurately, could never in a million years be mistaken for canon.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, so would it be the most delightful as a fan? I think it depends on what you're a fan OF, you know?

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

P.S. You think a lot.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

no you can't. as you said, you need to know the material first.


just as fin-de-siecle artists all learned the craft of drawing and painting first, before breaking away and creating what looks abstract and unskilled to amateurs.

[strawberry-snow.livejournal.com]

Wahaha. I haven't read anybody's journals in a while, and when I checked my friends page, this was the first to greet me. How inspiring. <3

I've actually read one or two Harry Potter fics that did work with the storyline. They were mere snapshots of a specific point in time without trying to change the plot too much, but they existed within the canon plot, and worked well. I can't recall the stories at the moment, however. The writing styles obviously differed from JKR's as well, and you could say that that's the individual fanfic author's personal voice, but... I don't know. That's something I've alwaysalwaysalways wanted to find in the HP fandom as well-- slashfic that works fluidly with the plot and retains JKR's style. I WANT a fic that can, five years later, make me think "Oh, yeah, this happened in the series! Wait... no, that was a fanfic, wasn't it? Or was it canon?"

I've seen slashfic attempts to remain canon done successfully more often in anime, where the narrative voice isn't so crucial to match up. There are some utterly beautiful Gundam Wing fanfics out there that maintain excellent characterization and develop extentions on GW's set stories. <3

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahh yes, naturally they'd have to know (I was taking that as a given), I meant they'd have to retain some of the feel even as they'd work to-- well-- subvert it, simultaneously. Perhaps I should insert that word. I like the sound of it: simultaneously.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

sorry, my bad, i meant it as in "feel" as well, not just headology.


(ps: expressions stolen from whedonverse and pratchett)

[thegraybook.livejournal.com]

I have never read any fic, ever, that read like a lost part of canon. There are certainly fics that take place within, say, already-written canon events and explore them from a new perspective - Lucius' perspective in the Borgin and Burkes scene or what have you - and those can't be said to contain events that didn't happen in canon; there are also fic writers who try conscientiously to imitate JKRs style, with varying degrees of success, but those don't feel like lost canon to me, they just feel like one of those high school "Write in the style of a writer you admire!" projects, which is not to say that they are bad.

I suppose it depends on whether you are taking "Might be mistaken for lost piece of canon by someone who hadn't read much of canon" as a measure of merit. By this token, Wide Sargasso Sea is a failure because it doesn't sound like Bronte wrote it. (It doesn't.) If you want to look at fanfic as textual commentary (and you seem to) then how is the quality of the commentary related to its similarity to canonical prose style?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think with the 'lost part' thing I was thinking more of shared universe stories which all seemed to fit together-- like the Borderlands stories, and the way John Ney Reiber's Books of Magic 'fits' with Neil Gaiman's BoM in such a way that you could say they're the same story, even though the styles do differ.

So I wasn't just talking about prose style precisely (that is, the exact rhythms of the original) but the feel itself-- like, it's hard to quantify, but... I wasn't really thinking of anything in HP. It's mostly in comics, really~:) I miss the feeling like it's all one continuing story, even if every bit is talking about different characters doing different things. But in a way that's a different genre altogether, not really fanfiction as much as collaborative fiction. Maybe that's it.

I do get fleeting bits of feeling, even reading HP fanfic, where it's like I -recognize- Harry (or Remus, or Hermione)-- something about either what they say or how they say it or how their mind seem to work. It rarely holds for the entire fic, but I've gotten that impression, at least, and the impression is all I was referring to-- rather than an objective measure, that is.

But yeah, it'd be near-impossible to precisely duplicate and probably not even desirable, 'cause-- well, what's the point when the author is there for that :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahhh, I totally forgot to differentiate between fans of this or fans of that.... Projecting again. When I really-really like a book (show, etc), I tend to like it for its entirety, I guess...? Not just its characterizations (or even just -some- of its characterizations) or its writing style or subject-matter, but rather the -feel- and sensation of what that world and the people in it are like. Usually there's some overriding... er... smell-sense(??!) I get by which I identify a particular book's/series' world. And I miss it when it's gone, moreso than I'd miss a single character, who'd be easier to 're-create' purely in my imagination/memory alone.

Perhaps I'm er... an odd duck. No, almost certainly.

And I wasn't meaning to stress writing style so much-- I mean, I don't even -want- to see JKR-style writing 'cause she doesn't really have a great style to start with (...er). I'd be more going for 'feel' and 'direction' which is even harder to quantify. 'Spirit'??? I think one can approach the same spirit with many different words & paths and things. I mean, that's the founding rule of fanfic, isn't it? Or something.

I'm not really picky about atmosphere with HP, but I really really am when I actually care about and love the source. I mean, in that case I end up reading virtually no fanfic, but if I ever do come across something that works for me and gives me that feeling of 'hi honey! I'm home!!'... oh man, the happy :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Here I feel I should say that rumors of my brain-size have been greatly exaggerrated :> :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

LOL! Well, seriously, you do. I think a great deal too, I'm just usually too lazy to write it out. ;) But if you talk to me on IM, for example, for any long stretch of time, you start getting essays. ;)

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

When I really-really like a book (show, etc), I tend to like it for its entirety, I guess...? Not just its characterizations (or even just -some- of its characterizations) or its writing style or subject-matter, but rather the -feel- and sensation of what that world and the people in it are like.

Yeah, see, things like the feel of something? That's pretty much too abstract for me to worry about, which is why I say I'm a fan of characterization or plot or whatever. I usually don't really register the atmosphere etc: my biggest comment on the HP series' is "kinda too simplistic for me, actually."

And yet, I can understand what you mean because I have the same reaction, oddly enough, with characters. Like, someone can write Sirius very differently than I see him, for example, and yet I will still believe that This Is Sirius because he retains the Spirit of Sirius. Alternately, people can write Siriuses who seem to go through a checklist of things I like in a Sirius, and yet seem off because he doesn't feel like Sirius. Yeah. Subjective, but there you go.

I'm not a big fan of fanfic, really, but yeah if I really love something I pretty much read NO fanfic. It seems sacrilegious. Or something.

[aiglet.livejournal.com]

What's the point of subverting something you don't understand? If you can't appreciate the complexity of what you're attempting to overset, then you can't do a good job of oversetting it, now can you?

I think that most fanfic isn't written with the intent of being subversive -- it's a form of literary "play" that allows people to bring forward themes that they want to explore without having to set up their characters. I admit that I find the things that people bring out in various characters really interesting, and I have a very hard time re-reading the series and not looking for the little threads my favorite authors have teased out to turn into a fuller story.

There's also an argument to be made that it's very hard to subvert children's fiction in a way that isn't trite. JKR isn't necessarily trying to make a big philosophical point (other than, perhaps, "eugenics is bad, and anyone who believes in it is unrelentingly evil and needs to be stopped"), and thus there isn't necessarily an overlying philosophy that can be taken in and twisted and represented. One can always write smut, but it's not as shocking as it was, and most of it is desperately OOC (mostly, I think, because even in Book 5 I have problems seeing Harry as being a "real teenager" with real teenage hormones). One could write from Voldemort or Grindelwald or Lucius' POV, but I think it would be an overly hard sell at anything less than novel length, because they're such flat characters in canon that there's little interest in trying to reinterpret them without fleshing them out a little.

I agree with you that trying to write in the mood of the author is a useful exercise, but I'm not sure that it's always possible to write in their mood and not absorb some of their philosophy into your own work. Once you've tried to subvert the philosophy, it's like changing gravity -- it's just not quite the same, and it can't and shouldn't be the same. Narnia without the Christianity or Middle Earth without the looming spectre of WWI (even if he didn't mean to write allegory, the mood of ME is (at least to me) clearly a reflection of what happened during the Great War) isn't Narnia or Middle Earth anymore, it's pastiche.

(Somehow I feel like I've completely misinterpreted what you're saying, and having written all of this, I'm no longer sure if I'm disagreeing or just violently agreeing, but thanks for making me think.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, forgot something!--
No, I'm not taking 'canon-feel' for 'measure of merit' (or worth-- a 'worthile endeavor'), and was trying to actually juxtapose textual-commentary fanfic (especially the subversive sort) with imitative fic which attempts to share in the universe in some sort of... gestalt fashion. I was trying to also say that you can't have a successful commentary fic without just writing a good (regular) fanfic. I actually am tired of fics having a blatant agenda, but that's more an issue of bad writing than anything else, anyway.

I think the problem is that I was trying to talk about things which are almost impossible to fully quantify & whenever one does, one runs up against 'but you can never imitate 100%'-- whereas to me it's not a question of percentages of success but rather a sense of the fic 'clicking in place' as a possibility. Er.

[aiglet.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the followup, but I meant WWII/the war to end all wars up there, not WWI/the Great War.

(gdmusumeci is such a good proofreader.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

People tell me this a lot-- I mean, that they don't bother writing out what they think. I'm always like... dude. If writing was effort for me, I'd never write anything. Am I really alone in my writing-is-more-natural-than-breathing land of hopelessly verbal?? Ahahahah. It really is a function of existence, for me. I think, however, this is why people don't really seem to get my actual point more than half the time-- that is, since I just spew & don't bother to censor myself, what ends up happening is that I only make sense (the way I intended) to a select few group of questionably lucky individuals :>

Like... most of the time, my replies to comments go like this: "but nooo, that's not what I meant...! It's the exact opposite with a secret twist at the end! Noooooooooo...." :> Le sigh. It's probably better to have more of a buffer between thought & writing/speech than I do :>

Which is to say-- I think I write even more than I think ;)) Ahahahahah. *coughs*
I feel I should catch you on AIM, then, though it seems like you use y!m instead (which if I'm ever on, I curse the universe 'cause EVERYONE IS INVISIBLE-- WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE??!)

Anyway, I'm about as lazy with that medium as most people are with 'formal' posts on lj. I dunno, it's that 'other people' thing, I think :> :> But now I'm all curious about those essays :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yes! That is what I'm looking for! Subversion while retaining the spirit!! That is the only way to truly subvert! Wahahah, watch me plan my revolution of none! Or something.

Anyway, yeah-- that's my favorite sensation in reading fanfic, prolly-- that feeling of yeah, that's it, whether in terms of characterization or mood or setting or anything-- as long as some strong whiff of intuitive rightness exists, all is-- well, right with the world :> I get this the most with Harry, btw (ahahah we are both kind of transparent in that regard, what with the playing favorites & obsession = attention & so on).

Like, as Cassie was saying below-- that no one has written a 100% believable 'feeling' fanfic-- I'd have to say that it doesn't need to be believable all the way if that spirit of at least One True Thing is there. I mean, Harry is my One True Thing (aka measuring stick), but, y'know, different strokes, etc.

I tend to read no fanfic for my favorite things too-- no one's good enough for my babies, etc. It's just my experience with collaborative worlds (like comics & some series of short-story collections) that made me open to possibility.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Am I really alone in my writing-is-more-natural-than-breathing land of hopelessly verbal??

LMAO! Yes you are! Hehehe.

But yeah, the issue is that I'm hopelessly structured. I can't just talk about something like this, I'd have to make a point list or something, and that's just too much trouble. ;)

And yeah, I detest AIM with an all-consuming passion and Never, Ever, EVER go on it. Same with MSN. And I dunno why everyone else is always invis but I am because I don't like talking to people. ;)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'd probably never say anything if I actually had to think & organize (oh, horror of horrors!!) before I write. I can't believe anyone ever actually takes my college essays seriously (like, y'know, my professors). Or that anyone takes me seriously period. But, er... *looks around furtively* it's okay, I don't mind or nothin' ;))


... But then, how do you like... actually talk to -anyone- on y!m? Of course, apparently lately there's been "only non-invisible to chosen users", I guess. I mean, I -might- possibly show up sometime, y'know (I'm people too, right). Eh, I'm never invisible, so it works out I suppose :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Hmm, my One True Thing is definitely Remus/Sirius. Yes, them as a pair. For me to believe a story with them together (I don't really read stories where they aren't, so I have no opinion there) I have to feel that the spirit of their dynamic is present, which means no blatant mischaracterization on either of them, and no WTFness in how they act together.

Sirius is my favorite character, but he isn't my yardstick or anything. So yeah.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

... But then, how do you like... actually talk to -anyone- on y!m?

LMAO!!!!!! Well, Yahoo doesn't turn you uninvis if you talk to people. But honestly, the only person, the ONLY person I talk to is Lara. She's basically my reason for having an IM service to begin with.

Once a... YEAR or so I might talk to someone else, but I'm basically the most asocial person ever born, yes.

several brief thoughts

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

i think the examples of ff you mention are actuallykind of unusual b/c they're all book fandoms...for the rest of us, style is not really that much of an issue, right :-)

not to get offensive or anything, but why would anyone *want* to copy JK's style?

subversion is interesting, though problematic. the most recent work i've read has actually rejected the approach to fan readings (not just fanfics but any interpretations that go "against the grain") as "resistant" or "subversive". jenkins latest approach works with a model of "convergence," i.e., ways in which media and audiences interact, influence one another, etc. also, a problem inthe subversion approach is that it assumes a stable identity and meaning of the text that then can be subverted. this, of course, is problematic! one of the best writers on the subject has been alexander doty. if you're interested, i have his intro to the out in culture collection as a txt file...but his most important worjk is probably still flaming classics..the intro is great!!!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I don't really talk to anyone on a constant basis, but then, that's because I don't want to waste away just talking all the time (this happened once upon a time), since I'm easily addicted. Man, I'm always both pleased and weirded out that there are actually people more asocial than I, but I guess where else would someone like that be except the internet :>

I mean, I'm asocial all right, just... once you get me started... I talk a lot. And by a lot I mean... a lot.
*sniff* Man, those legendary essays, so tantalizingly out of reach. *faraway dreamy look*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Y'know, it's such an odd thing... but as much as there's this idea of 'fanon!Draco' & even 'fanon!Harry', I don't really think there's any singular trend of the H/D dynamic that I could tap into. Like, that definitely remains what I'm always looking for (since I don't really read-- or write-- Harry-centric stories), but in a pairing where everyone's Draco is either different or wrong to some degree, I overcompensate & fuss with Harry. It's like, there's no acceptable, steady Draco I could depend on seeing written that would give me a constant characterization of them as a couple. It's rather odd to realize, come to think of it.

I think what I meant was that I had those moments of 'yes! hey, that's Harry!' with Harry but not with Harry/Draco as a unit. Much as I'd like to :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

The addiction to talking is kind of a problem, actually. Like, I never write when I'm chatting all the time - I discovered that in my last fandom. So yeah, your way is probably the sane way. ;)

And I do talk a lot when I'm talking, but I don't do that much, except on Livejournal.

and HAHAHA dude, you don't wanna hear me pontificate, it's a freakish thing, and Lara sits there going "... yeah" a lot. :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eheheh I can't believe I just had the word 'sane' applied to me as an example :D :D AHAHAHAHAH *wheezes* No, really, if it's not one thing it's another. Talking online helps me be not -quite- a complete hermit who never pokes her nose outside. It's a close thing. Though honestly, I feel I shouldn't be doing it online at all, y'know, since I have this slight paranoia that maybe I only have so much 'talk' in me & maybe I use it all up on lj & there's just nothing left over for being a gregarious university student that I KNOW I COULD BE DAMMIT. (...or not.)

I totally enjoy listening to people (that I like) pontificate-- saves -me- from having to, doesn't it :)) Or sometimes I pontificate right back, which could possibly be hazardous to someone's health.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Well, that's probably because H/D as a romantic pairing is pretty much outside of canon bounds inherently. Which is to say, you can't say you want to see them as they're presented in canon, because in canon they hate each other. So, working from there, there are a billion different ways to get them together.

Whereas with something like R/S, which is present in canon (not necessarily in a romantic sense, but you get a feel for their dynamic, know what I mean?) someone like me will try to find a way of presenting them romantically that replicates the dynamic they already have.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...I have the oddest feeling of being jealous of your OTP.

...And then I remember there really isn't any more IC S/R fic than H/D fic ;))!!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, I was going beyond just nderstanding (that is, knowledge of the subject), which seems obviously necessary, and into a sort of... synchronization with the text while one's trying to overset it. Um. Though that might be too weird/abstract/out there, I dunno. Made sense to me at the time :>

Play might be seen as subversive :D :D I meant, the -least- subversive thing (at the opposite side of the spectrum) would be like-- complete imitation, right? Something like that. And most fanfic doesn't seem to even attempt that (judging from the rampant OOCness everywhere, at least). But yes, not 'serious' subversion :>

I'm really interested in the 'not trite' thing-- it's a new critique angle. I mean... yeah... you could say that JKR, at least, is simply too simplistic to subvert 'well' (whatever that means). Though I don't think CS Lewis is, necessarily, y'know? Plenty of meat there to bite into without seeming to tread in shallow waters or attempting to stretch canon beyond how far it was 'meant' to go. Plenty of people (I feel so so tiresome saying this, you have no idea) think that yes, Voldemort is a laughable villain, and that's why the idea that he is the (a?) real villain at all should be subverted. That is to say, the real 'danger' is within Harry and the Gryffindors that follow him & the Ministry & Dumbledore in this case, and Slytherins get an overblown bad rap to cover up the Gryffindors' misdemeanors by false contrast, etc. (Can you tell I'm sensitive on this issue?? Aaaargh, faaaaandooommmmmm, why do you hurt me sooooooo?? ...Mind you, they have a point, I am just twitchy like an over-worked horse by now.)

That's exactly where I was going-- that by writing in the mood, you'd absorb philosophy along the way. That was my central point. To fully subvert, you'd have to kind of... align yourself with the canon to such an extent that you'd be attacking from within, almost. Er. Does that even make sense? I just mean you can't overturn canon from the outside since you'll never actually cross that gap of readers being aware 'this is just fanfic'. And that's exactly it! Yes! Like trying to subvert gravity! Yes! Yes! (Picture me getting over the top with the yesses ala Herbal Sensations commercial.)

... I think we were mostly violently agreeing, actually~:)) Maybe :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

*dies*!

Yeah, funny isn't it?

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

I just don't want to be social, to be honest. So yeah, none of that. ;)

That thing about running out of stuff to say, though... might be something to that, because I think I'm kind of out of words right now hahah!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I haven't thought of the differences between text-based & media-based fandoms, but now it seems pretty obvious~:) It should be a lot easier to write fanfic for shows, though I've actually never been inspired (...then again, my inspiration for fanfic tends to be other fanfic). I wasn't really talking about writing style so much as 'spirit of the world', which is a much harder thing to quantify & exists mostly as gut-reaction type thing. And all this was only in relationship to being needed if you wanted to subvert the source, not as a measure of worth of fanfic in general. Man, that's so convoluted :>

Generally I think it'd be cool to have completely imitative fics especially if I really really love the source (which... isn't the case with HP but is the case with Harry himself, so I'm really picky about the Harrys I read and want them to be SO IC JUST LIKE JKR WANTED OMG)-- but on the other hand, those fics (in GW) that I've seen tend to be Heero/Relena. Which makes me shudder to contemplate, personally :>

Re: several brief thoughts

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Actually... well, it's not an issue for anime or more 'normal' shows, but there's a distinct 'style' & 'feel' for Buffy, for instance, that I really prefer fanfic replicated. But really, I wasn't meaning 'style' as in 'actual literary style', though I guess that'd be the obvious thing. I mean, my professor wants 'tone & language', but I guess that's separate from my point about absorbing some of the 'tone' & mood in order to successfully subvert... so basically I was conflating things again. Man, I always do that. ^^;; And of course the whole thing about my professor was just a tangent but it's what most people latched on to and.... wargh.

Heheh well, I figure if you're writing in JKR's world, and you want to write 'good' fanfic, but especially if you want to mess with the very foundations of her world in said fanfic-- it would just not -work- if you didn't appropriate some of the feel of her base universe in order to better... er... unglue some parts of it from others. As I keep saying, I'm not sure that whole idea makes sense, but... that was my point. Such as it was. The question of -wanting- to didn't even enter into it, for me-- except as in asking whether subversion is that act of a fan or whether it would -appeal- to a fan in this context....

I keep wanting to put my finger on -why- subversion is problematic, but since my forte is rambling & not actual rigorous analysis, I get bogged down. This Jenkins article sounds interesting (wasn't there a community for talking about slash in the academia? But they don't actually -post- the articles there, do they...). I'm really curious about -how- it's problematic, too, 'cause I have this gut feeling but no real -theory-. I do feel I need theory at this point to back me up :>

Oooh, the Problem of No Stable Identity... yes me likes. Though conversely, if there -was- a stable identity (as I think I was implying), wouldn't it be difficult, also, because fanon would never -be- canon & it's therefore a sort of a Sisyphus' dilemma (which is why I was saying maybe it should 'try harder', so to speak).

I am interested in whatever further reading you'd have to offer, basically :D

Re: several brief thoughts

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

the jenkins essay is here (http://ics.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/7/1/33) and i'll email you the doty i have (though if you get a chance to look at flaming classics...his reading of wizard of oz is killer :-)

and yes, you're right on the buffy and there *are* certain 'tonal' differences (for lack of a better word) between fandoms...you're right...

[thegraybook.livejournal.com]

But in a way that's a different genre altogether, not really fanfiction as much as collaborative fiction.

Right, shared world stuff things like Borderlands, and the BoM and Thieves' World and so forth are collaborative fiction. Fanfiction, which involves no collaboration with the author, is a different ballgame. Just because you're sneaking over to your neighbors' house when they're not there and swimming in their pool doesn't mean you all have a timeshare together. :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Perhaps that's partly why I have issues with trying to consciously subvert the text through fanfic, actually. It's that sense that since it's not collaborative, it's rather difficult to succeed at changing base precepts of the universe you're working with (or more like, throwing small tomatoes at from very far away). Though it might be possible to create the illusion of sharing, I'm none too certain. :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

but on the other hand, those fics (in GW) that I've seen tend to be Heero/Relena.

*gloats*

[strawberry-snow.livejournal.com]

I think one reason the Harry Potter canon is so hard to imitate the spirit of is because of JKR's writing style, actually. The way that she writes just has a certain feel to it that really suits the atmosphere of the story perfectly; I don't think HP would be the same if it were the exact same story, but written with a different author's voice. It depends on the individual tale, but I personally often find a story's 'spirit of the world', particularly in fantasy-based tales, to be very heavily tied to the individual author's style.

Ugh, I avoid Heero/Relena with a passion (as you may be able to tell by this comment's avatar.) I haven't read GW fanfic for a couple of years, but there were a couple that actually were yaoi (well... shounenai) and still worked well with the canon.
(Then again, I often rediscover fics I was thoroughly impressed by, and realize years later that the quality wasn't quite what I remembered it to be.)
An interesting 1x2 read, if that's your ship of choice, is Rules (http://www.roseargent.com/rules.html) by Rose Argent. It goes along with the canon, and I really adore the character portrayals. They may not be 100% GW-canon-style, but the differences are negligible, I think. I can't remember the quality of conventions in the fic, though-- just that I quite fancied the story.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eh. Actually, that wasn't me appreciating H/R as much as slamming GW canon :>
I mean... I wouldn't -want- to read a fic that's really -too- much like canon in GW 'cause I'm really bored with wars & politics & even grand sweeping epics & things. It should tell you something that my favorite genre of GW fic is AU.

So basically, I haven't even -read- H/R (...except I think that one fic where it was a threesome) but I've seen one or two people who're clearly obsessed with writing 'canon-style' in that pairing-- but I can't judge, because a) I hate the pairing & b) most of it (and most het in anime fandoms in general) is written by barely pubescent 14 year-olds who can't spell. I am so not kidding. The big reason to read 1x2 (or 3x4) slash in GW? Is 'cause that's pretty much where the only widely-recced or known goodfic is.

And I do think a lot of good, canonically-characterized fic gets written for 1x2-- when you have a pairing fandom that size, -some- of it will be good through sheer statistics-- but it tends to be AU, as I said-- or at least in some way seriously disconnected from canon. Though honestly, Sunhawk is really good in that respect, actually-- there's some stuff. It just doesn't -quite- have the feel of GW 'cause of the lack of utter sweeping political morality-taleness. The two H/R fics I'm thinking of seem much more stuffy. Rather like GW (me & most mecha shows... don't mix).

You can't really trust GW fandom anyway. I mean, that fic recced below-- `Rules'-- eh. Why does everyone make Duo a whore-boy?? WHYYYYYyyyyYYYyyyyYYYYYYYYyyyy...??
*grumble* Man, I like my happy AU wonderland.

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I don't think a different writing style is subversive by nature, but that delicious feeling of re-immersion is certainly absent from it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think I can safely say that any form of coherent logical structure was absent from this post :> :> Mainly, I didn't mean that (er... I think) writing style was the subversive thing (...I really should've gone into some sort of detail with what I meant by 'subvert'... duh) and I didn't actually mean writing style by 'tone & feel', though of course that'd be the most quantifiable aspect of it (it's also the least important in my mind).

So like, definitely, a different writing style wouldn't be subversive-- it'd be silly to think so. I was thinking of trying to show that Harry is really dark, nasty & cruel and Draco has a point & Dumbledore is really a big old fool, etcetc. The reason I didn't go on about it is that I didn't want to get into an argument about how 'but that's right there in the text! that's canon!' because I think I'll be perfectly happy to never hear anything else about Slytherin liberation in my life. [/bitter]
Anyway, er... hahah I was just trying to connect immersion with subversion 'cause it's that whole wolf-in-sheep's-clothing bit, but I'm really starting to think that was a silly idea ^^;;;

[malafede.livejournal.com]

You can't really trust GW fandom anyway.

Yeah, I was about to say that. I remember reading in the GW fandom. Oh, I so remember it. All I read was 2x1, btw. And it's something I repressed.