Brian & Justin 4EVAR!11!!1

[reenka]

Ahhhhh, omg, omg!!

Duuuude!!


I've been so lazy and I haven't seen the last 5 eps of QAF and I finally downloaded and watched the first one, and omg, I'd forgotten how much I loved it!! Dude!! The only disturbing-icky part was the Ben/Michael sex, because... no. But! OMG the... *gurgle*... yes, okay, the Brian/Justin, okay I admit it, ack. Brian kissed him! On! The! Cheek!...!.. (he is so in love it is almost painful... except NOT)!! Aaaah! And! Said all sorts of! Romantic! Things! ...like... well... Justin was the one with the romantic things to say ("it was love to me" = GUH), but then Brian just sort of melted and I think I was squealing. Loudly. In my head. (I feel... junior high-schoolish and yet....) They are so... the... cutest evar!!1

And the dialogue is. Jumping! Was it always like that? They're all so adorable. Even Michael(!?... wtf? cute bonding with Hunter!) And... aww, Ted & Emmett make me sad. But not too sad, because Brian makes me happy, oh-so-happy, wah.

It's amazing how much Brian has really changed-- become more balanced... it's almost like he -glows- or something (or maybe he always did-- I mean, this -is- Brian). It's like... he's really showing affection so much more, and he seems... on top of things, except in a good way, but not an over-the-top compensating sort of way. Seriously, how can anyone not love him? He shines.

Yes, I'm a Brian whore. Wahah, I admit it! I mean, I was always saying "...but Justin!!" and now... I've seen the smirk light. *cough/swoon* I mean, I was just perving over pics of ickle Dan earlier today, and feeling awful (because! I'm not like that! HONEST!!) and... yeah, okay, now it's like, Dan who? Because. The pretty! Has! Landed! And! IT IS GAY!!!1 (..... fine, no need to bring "reality" into this, is there? Is there?)

EDIT - um. clearly... I spoke too soon. *gurgles & DIES!!1*
~~

And... I was also thinking about... stuff (again).

Like... do we choose who we become?

I know, it's kind of a biggie, but. I'm obsessed with it, in my own little way.

I think that's one of the things that confuse people about some stuff I say, because I think most people assume we just deal with the cards we're dealt in terms of our drives and needs and attitudes, right? And I think my unspoken assumption sometimes is that in the end, it's not a question of either nature -or- nurture, but of the choices we can make to overcome both those things. It's like... everyone has a range of potential no one can guess at, lurking within them, and it's a question of whether or not one chooses-- and believes that they're capable of choosing-- to become their better self. Choosing one's own best destiny.

So... looking at it that way... one can always at least strive to become smarter, stronger, fitter in whatever way. Or one can choose to pander to one's perceived flaws and admit defeat without much of a fight-- let the proof be in the pudding, so to speak. One can say "this is who I am", end of story, refusing to admit that identity is malleable and the future, unlike the past, is in our hands.

That's JKR's overall point, isn't it?


That's supposed to be the main difference between Harry and Draco, isn't it? That Harry chose not to accept the situations handed to him, that Harry has to learn to choose what he wants and believes in even in the face of a prophecy that is supposedly going to determine the future. What do you want to bet Harry's going to somehow subvert that prophecy, btw?

It really seems like Harry's discovery of free will is at the center of his journey.

I do believe it, I guess, so it's hypocritical to pose it as a question-- I do believe we may not choose who we are, but we can all choose who we become, and that's the important part. Maybe it's all an illusion and our lives and genetics shape us irrevocably, but without that illusion of "free will", what's worth fighting for? If our identities aren't our own in some way, if we are slaves to our pasts and our blood, where's our real identity, in the first place? Who are we if not that spark of "I will!" or "I won't!" that can define our varying potentials into a single point of belief?

(And by this measure, I really do think that Snape is a real hero in his own way, clearly. Not because he joined the "good side" or whatever, but because he chose to overcome-- while clearly retaining whatever he thought he was, at least at the surface. Neville & Ginny, ditto-- but Snape had a lot more to overcome. After all, he probably despised most of the people he was now 'joining'-- they tormented him and probably drove him to being a Death Eater in the first place! But evidently, he chose to say 'fuck them!' in the best way possible-- by living his life regardless, even though he's still pretty bitter and obsessed with the past. It's like, he only overcame just enough, but not enough to fully free himself by far.)

Perhaps that's it-- perhaps it doesn't matter whether we -can- shape our future and thus ourselves-- perhaps all that matters is that we -believe- and that faith in itself defines us. That in itself, is a fight against a self-fulfilling prophecy of a sort-- the prophecy that was given to each of us at birth-- we are where we are and when we are. Our intelligence molded by our parents and our schooling, our independence molded by the freedoms allowed to us, and our friendships and loves drawn from whoever gets to us first.

It's true that most people do live like that-- but I wouldn't say it's a sign of our intrinsic weak nature, of the necessity of it. Most people wouldn't even believe they could choose if someone told them. It seems so obvious, doesn't it? This is our lives, and what else can we do but live them? How can one imagine being outside of everything one knows, and remain oneself?

Is it possible, then, for Draco to one day realize that it's a good thing Harry Potter didn't take his hand that day? Is it possible for him to realize that Harry chose his future rather than surrendering to one he didn't want because it was the one first presented to him, just as he, Draco, could choose his?

In the books, of course, he won't-- because he's the contrast, isn't he-- he's the one who accepts the illusion of his past defining him. And yet, that's why I refuse to see him as weak-- as fated to be who he is and go down the predictable path-- that's how I want to redeem him. Even if in the books, he's not free, I want to make him free. And once that happens, the weakness, the whole issue of being in Harry's shadow, unnoticed, unloved-- it disappears. He won't need Harry or his father to love him or notice him. He may want that still, but he won't need it. He will have learned who he is, apart from others, apart from his past. Just him, Draco.

Still Malfoy, still everything he'd always been, but also different-- like a fractal that had mutated once, twice, and then a million times.

Alone, maybe-- but more importantly, a separate individual-- just Draco.

Outside of Harry's story, which had so long defined him: in his own story now.

And if he wants, he could then meet 'just Harry', or he could leave him to live his own life without needing to even say that he understands now. He won't be trapped in a codependent relationship where his needs are provided for by someone else and his holes plugged by a mix of illusion and fear and need and his future defined by someone else's vision. Because clearly, Harry has his own vision of how things "should" be and if Draco doesn't have an equally vivid one of his own, he'd always be in check.

Brian Kinney was right, though-- the best revenge is living a good life-- the life you want; otherwise you'd always be victimized by those who once hurt you or dominated your will. (And I suppose that's going to be poor Justin's lesson in life this season-- good thing he has Counselor Brian, heheh.) Checkmate, Harry Potter.

Now, maybe it's Harry who won't understand, though I hope he will, by the end.

We can all be heroes, isn't that the point? Even Brian Kinney-- or especially Brian Kinney, Selfish Bastard and clearly Slytherin extraordinaire, right? Even if just for a day. Any day we choose to be. Free to will.

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh god, has Brian been glowing this season or what? He has! And everybody goes to him for advice because he's become so holy in his Brianness! I am also loving Hunter more and the sex between Ben and Michael is icky. Not sexy. Icky.

On the Harry and Draco part...the thing is, how can Harry really be said to have chosen something other than what he was given when Draco has not? I mean, it seems to me that in some ways both of them have taken what they've been given and run with it, made it who they were because they had no other choice. Like, here's Draco who's got this father who's like a god and he's totally isolated besides that. So what can he do? He could be crushed, become a robot or whatever. Instead he seems to sort of embrace it and make it something almost noble--yes, his father is right and they are being attacked by Mudbloods and he is one of the heroes even if they're the dark wizards because all those good guys are just stupid and deluded and don't know how things are supposed to be. If Harry Potter doesn't want to be his friend he'll become his enemy and embrace that instead of just accepting it.

But then Harry...who was he supposed to be? He was stuck in a closet with a family that hated him and told him he wasn't part of them. He, too, could have sort of died inside, but he embraced that as well and defined himself as being not a Dursley. Then he gets to the WW and it turns out he's supposed to be this big savior and all and he doesn't just become a robot and be that, he's still the rebel...but then isn't that sort of the option open to him? I mean, did he choose sides any more than Draco did?

I mean, first, Draco is actually the second option opened to Harry--the first is Hagrid and he not only loves him but gets into a fight over him with Draco because Draco says he's a savage and a servant. It's not that Harry embraces the role of savior of the WW because he doesn't...but even in doing that he's playing the same role he always did, which is the boy who isn't "good" in a way. In their ways, I think both Harry and Draco have embraced that role in different ways.

Though I don't know if that means they don't have a choice...I mean, it seems like both of them are defined by how they chose to deal with their situation. We could say, I suppose, that Harry made the right choice and Draco the wrong one, but maybe that's just because we don't understand Draco's as much, not knowing him well.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Agh, yeah... my idealism has gotten the best of me once again, I think. I mean... actually... heh. Well, I've grown up with sort of that weird godlike-yet-too-close relationship to my parents, and I've chosen to define myself by rebelling and being different and stuff... but okay, in a way that's taking what I'm given. I'm kind of in the process of figuring out what -I- want, regardless of what I grew up wanting and was socialized into wanting, but it's hard. I mean, it's a process... I probably shouldn't have implied that Harry was always a natural at being only himself, 'cause it's a lifelong deal sort of thing.

I meant... yeah, nothing is so simple or black and white, and Hagrid did come first, but I meant that Ron came second in his way-- but still, yeah, you could see the whole thing as Harry being manipulated. Getting lemons or whatever and making lemonade.

To embrace your lot instead of just accepting it... or being overwhelmed by it, huh.

I guess to me, it seems... a reflection of nurture. That's saying that you're like "out and proud" or something, and yeah, that can be freeing in its way, but... yeah, it's just the flipside of what Harry did (reject the Dursleys), which is again, working with what you've got. But.... I think Harry can be excused from charges of fully just accepting Hagrid/Ron/etc 'cause they're not the Dursleys on the grounds that he seems to actually judge people's character based on unknown instincts-- something more than just "not the Dursleys".

I mean, I wasn't saying I expect something or blame Draco for being a child who emulated his father-- that's perfectly natural. It's like, once we grow up that we make other choices, not while we're still completely vulnerable. Up to age 16 or so-- maybe even 21-- maybe older-- one can't be really held responsible for who you are, too much. So one can't really -judge- either Harry or Draco. Yet. As I see it.

Sort of the way I don't judge Snape for being who he was and joining the Death Eaters in the first place-- I just think that clearly, he chose to leave. And okay, we don't know the reasons yet-- but the important part is that he did, and it was probably something he thought about. It's that thoughtfulness that seems important to me. That evaluation (whether instinctual or rational) of a situation, and then the fully conscious choosing of some path.

And... I probably went too easy on Harry-- or didn't clarify enough-- that I think Harry needs to learn to choose-- to think-- just as much as Draco does. I mean, it's never over. Possession of free will is a constant struggle, but the my point was that it's possible, anyway :>

[ladyrelaynie.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Where were you two when I was writing my Senior Sem paper over just this topic?

~Relaynie

[cat-mom.livejournal.com]

It's a good thing my brain seems to know how to compartmentalize all by it's itty bitty self because if I had to organize my thoughts about Brian/Justin (and Just!Brian!), too young to be so gorgeous Dan, my undying love for my OTP H/D, and RL too, well, my head would explode!!

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I actually agree with you on Harry. I disagree he's there already, though. The whole thing about making choices... he really didn't make any choice in HPPS. Rejecting Draco and rejecting Slytherin wasn't his choice - by the time he got there, Hagrid had already brainwashed him.

But I think Rowling's going there, too. Book 5 ended with a sort of massive rebellion to the adults surrounding him. I think Harry's off to make his own kingdom, now.

It's true that Draco is his foil, so he's probably going the opposite direction... but I still feel it would be even more powerful if he had his own dark nigh of the soul, as sistermagpie put it. Because, you know, Harry is already in the right path, because the people he loves taught him. But Draco's finding truth in something that's the diametral opposite of the principles his own role models instilled in him - it takes a lot of strenght and pain to see it. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean to imply he's there already. Um. I think I kind of implied that he's somehow better off in the choice-making department than Draco is, and I think that's true because a) he rebels rather than embracing (which, while is still thinking inside the box, is showing more signs of independence) & b) he does judge people/things based on gut feeling, so even if he's being somewhat influenced, I wouldn't say it's -brainwashed-, not like Draco is, because Draco embraces authority while Harry resists it.

As far as Draco's dark night of the soul-- but of course, yes, I believe he should have that. I'm all for the trial-by-fire redemptive journey for Draco, simply because I think the simple structure of only the heroes having them is... er... not exciting enough, not transformative enough. I like the "villains" or the dark-oriented folk to get free will or the ability to think about their choices or whatever, because they're more likely to walk the Grey Path, y'know. The heroes are there to do the "right thing", but the "villains" could dare to stray (since the justice is already being taken care of) and explore the more delicate aspects of self and morality and identity. So it's simply more interesting to write.

But the HP example, of course, wasn't my main question anyway 'cause it's such a simply delineated story, so determined by its symbolism and structure. That's why ultimately I'm more interested in fanon!Draco than canon!Draco, because I can make my own Draco be in any story, really, represent anything, take any journey. If he's only canon!Draco, he's kinda... small potatoes; his story is very clear. I hate it when a character has a predetermined destiny, but that's clearly the way JKR is writing her books, and that's type of storytelling. Just not my type.

I tend to want to walk the line between likable and unlikable characterizations, where there are many shades of complexity and contradiction, but in the end some central core of goodness and life-- love, basically. So I'm never really sure what story I'm telling or going after, wanting to see-- not sure what I want the characters to be-- only sure that I always want them to change. I suppose I like to write Draco 'cause he's such a great tool for that uncharted territory of a very rigid story arc-- sort of the way you'd take a fairytale and explore the life of the middle sister. Not the youngest or the oldest, y'know. The middle sister has many more choices, actually. So in a way, Draco has more choices than Harry, which makes him more interesting to a storyteller.

Man, I dunno where that ramble came from ^^;

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I'll come back later and answer better, but I just wanted to say that I *mean* to send you those C&C... it just was a bad weekend for that. :( Forgive me?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's perfectly all right~:) I am curious as to what you think of them, but. I'm glad you still remember :D
(I tend to procrastinate horribly ><;;)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

That makes two of us. *cries*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

a) he rebels rather than embracing (which, while is still thinking inside the box, is showing more signs of independence) & b) he does judge people/things based on gut feeling, so even if he's being somewhat influenced, I wouldn't say it's -brainwashed-, not like Draco is, because Draco embraces authority while Harry resists it.

Oh yeah, totally. I mean, this is JKR we're talking about. Have we ever seen anyone do well when they embraced authority? It's like...we know Harry's good because he rebells against everyone. Percy and Draco are both immediately suspicious because they seem like suck-ups.

Of course, this then gets kind of fudged over when Harry himself is the authority and he's all "My way or the highway." Or when we're being told loyalty to Dumbledore is a sign of a good character.Harry's gut is essentially the thing that's suppose to be the barometer for all good and bad in the universe at times.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I guess one of the major pit-falls of distrusting authority is becoming arrogant (becoming an authority, also), though honestly, I don't think Harry wants to. It's just that people will latch on to whoever seems loudest & most confident, and Harry has no patience for people's ideas sometimes (I know what that's like *coughs*). I think once a leader becomes more mature, they learn to compromise and be sensitive and all that, but right now Harry's just embracing his own authority :>

A lot of things in JKR's books only make sense to me because of the structure that it is. Like, when you watch Star Wars (another story that's rather rigidly structured), you kinda have to believe in the functions of the triad of Yoda & Luke & Vader, otherwise the story doesn't hold water anymore. So I guess it's similar with Harry, Dumbledore & Tom Riddle. Either you buy into their roles or the text falls apart as far as I can see. And of course Harry rebels against everything, including himself, so it's all good :> (Sometimes I think I'd forgive Harry anything & everything, but then I'm like.... naaaaah.)

About Dumbledore... I was talking to a friend recently, and had the idea that maybe Dumbledore is so... uh... nice (comparatively) because of the Pensieve. Like, maybe he keeps his worst moments, where he lost control or was power-hungry or whatever in there-- y'know-- so that he forgets the bits of himself he doesn't want to deal with or that would tempt him to the "dark side". I thought that was kinda scary ^^; Oh, and my friend thought Snape might keep some more kind and gentle moments inside his own Pensieve.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I guess one of the major pit-falls of distrusting authority is becoming arrogant (becoming an authority, also), though honestly, I don't think Harry wants to. It's just that people will latch on to whoever seems loudest & most confident, and Harry has no patience for people's ideas sometimes (I know what that's like *coughs*). I think once a leader becomes more mature, they learn to compromise and be sensitive and all that, but right now Harry's just embracing his own authority.

Harry so wants to be a leader. Mature, yeah, but a leader nonetheless. Harry is conquering the authority that hurt him rather than breaking it. One could say there are two paths: conquering or breaking it. For example, Spike breaks and Angel conquers. Nya nya nya, Harry is like Angel…

I agree that Harry doesn’t want to be arrogant. But nobody wants to! They just are! And Harry just is. Please, don’t refuse Harry’s arrogance, you make me tear up. It’s one my favourite things about him. His big head is so sexy.

A lot of things in JKR's books only make sense to me because of the structure that it is. Like, when you watch Star Wars (another story that's rather rigidly structured), you kinda have to believe in the functions of the triad of Yoda & Luke & Vader, otherwise the story doesn't hold water anymore. So I guess it's similar with Harry, Dumbledore & Tom Riddle. Either you buy into their roles or the text falls apart as far as I can see.

You know, I should have to suspend my disbelief. Rowling should do it. And I but archetypes and allegories if they are consistent. It’s just, like sistermagpie says above, Rowling isn’t consistent when it serves her agenda. The Slytherins do what the plot need regardless of characterization, and authority seems to be good when it’s Harry the one embracing it, or it’s Harry the authority. :/

About Dumbledore... I was talking to a friend recently, and had the idea that maybe Dumbledore is so... uh... nice (comparatively) because of the Pensieve. Like, maybe he keeps his worst moments, where he lost control or was power-hungry or whatever in there-- y'know-- so that he forgets the bits of himself he doesn't want to deal with or that would tempt him to the "dark side".

This is very clever. Also intriguing. You should write fic. *nudges*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say it's -brainwashed-, not like Draco is, because Draco embraces authority while Harry resists it.

Oh, agreed totally. Then again I quite like Draco’s submissiveness, so. Imagine if the authority Draco submitted to was Harry’s. I know you don’t quite like the word and the implications, but what a beautiful image. *cries*

Though Harry’s ability to repress any information messing with his shiny Gryffindor worldview is quite fristrating.

But the HP example, of course, wasn't my main question anyway 'cause it's such a simply delineated story, so determined by its symbolism and structure. That's why ultimately I'm more interested in fanon!Draco than canon!Draco, because I can make my own Draco be in any story, really, represent anything, take any journey. If he's only canon!Draco, he's kinda... small potatoes; his story is very clear. I hate it when a character has a predetermined destiny, but that's clearly the way JKR is writing her books, and that's type of storytelling. Just not my type.

Meep. Poor small potatoes, what have they done to you. *defends Small Potatoes’s honour staunchly* See, this is the thing – it’s true that exploring humanity through a more ambiguous or redeemable character, you can go in more directions, but directions aren’t just morals, they are psychological as well. And being a small potato is a facet of humanity. Small potatoes should be rediscovered. I think I’ll go write a HP fic about Small Potatoes only. In fact, I’ll even call it Small Potatoes. *g*

And you know, I don’t think all Draco-that-are-more-flashed-out-than-canon are fanon. If they don’t contradict canon, they aren’t. It’s obvious that if you focus on Draco you’ll know more about him than Harryìs pov does; it’s almost inevitable that you’ll have to add layers. But the layers you add don’t cancel out the first one provided by Rowling. I feel that a lot of confusion is born from the fact that for many people “well-written Draco = fanon”. It’s not fanon, it’s just… more.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Er... yeah, I suppose I should (I hate that word, but anyway) meditate on Small Potatoes. I don't do that enough. Buuuut... my problem is that when I write Draco, I write from his pov & I empathize with him pretty deeply. In his mind, (my) Draco isn't Small Potatoes at all-- he's a bloody Malfoy! He's got a lineage that he could stick up your arse and it'd come out your mouth! He's brilliant and shiny! He's... All That.

And while -personally-, his skillz leave something to be desired, in a social sense, he's not really Small Potatoes at all, which is what confuses the issue and why people actually slash him with Harry. There's true tension there, and not just a tension born of misunderstanding that could be resolved with Harry's realizing Draco isn't All Bad or whatever. Draco -does- represent things Harry will never really reconcile himself to, and what's more, Draco -likes- representing those things. If he thought about himself & his heritage enough to change his attitudes, I don't see him submitting his will to Harry (having broken free of his father by that point).

Draco's a Pureblood, right. He's the scion of the "old order" if anyone is, if he's not dead by the time the war's over. He's the last real Black and Malfoy-- you think he'll spit on that completely? Dude. He has shoes to grow into, and they're not Small Potato shoes.

So if you go and look at Draco's pov, the small-potato thing evaporates (for me). The boy's as arrogant as Harry; possibly -more- (in my head, and I do believe it's supported by canon). It's that tension of power, that constant uneasy friction between them that fascinates me. They could challenge each other, I do believe that-- and in that case, the submission would have to be temporary, a constant process of renegotiation.

It is true I pretty much hate the idea of submission with a fiery passion of a billion suns, but. While I believe that Draco's -submissive- (sexually & somewhat emotionally-- though I believe his emotions are not so straightforward), I think he has to make his own terms for that submission, in the end, where he retains a lot of status and power so he feels secure. While Harry could "protect" him (from what? other Purebloods?), he couldn't give Draco status. It's like making a gently-bred princess live with a valiant (and rich) merchant for love-- at first it'd work, but then it'd turn sour and recriminatory, generally.

And I just call all non-canon fanon by definition :>
I realize that in HP fandom, the term's been twisted to mean "badfic", but er... that's rather ambiguous, especially since everyone's interpretations of canon are so wildly different a lot of times~:)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

You're right about him not submitting to Harry the same way he submits to Lucius or Snape, of course. I wasn't really talking about Harry as the protector this time around (why do I feel like you're mocking me? :)), I was just thinking in terms of authorities. Though Lucius and Snape are acceptable because they indulge him and boost his ego (with Lucius this gets kinda muddled, though) while Harry is of the devil and in Draco's mind submission to him is suicide. But I don't think Draco is self-aware enough to rationalise his social processes this way. I mean, he probably never thinks of himself as submitting to Snape or Lucius (not talking about sex, now, just general connections), but he is.

Oh, of course he's have to negotiate his terms, I mean, in a sane relationship, that's what you do. It's good to pair Draco with Harry because the fact that it's Harry allows him to put up a bit of resistence, to keep his character. I really dislike fics where Draco is not angry and nasty and... fighty. Am thinking of MSAS!Draco now, who kicks me off a fic sooner than you say "nice".

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Then again I quite like Draco’s submissiveness, so. Imagine if the authority Draco submitted to was Harry’s.

Have you ever read Zed Adam's ANALogy and TOPology Potterverse fics? JuvenileDelinquent!Harry and Harry'sBitch!Draco. Fluffy as they are, before the Lucius-prison thing, this was how I sekretly thought a H/D thing would really be. (Also, major props to author for making Harry dominant etc, but not an unsympathetic asshole)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Believe me, I know that series very well. Draco as Harry's bitch is better than sub Draco, also - it makes Reenka less sad. *g*

*disagrees*

[cellia.livejournal.com]

he really didn't make any choice in HPPS. Rejecting Draco and rejecting Slytherin wasn't his choice - by the time he got there, Hagrid had already brainwashed him.


I think it's carefully presented that Harry *does* make a choice in SS about Draco without any outside influences.

The 1st time he meets Draco (Madam Malkin's), he knows nothing of him or Slytherin. He dislikes him immediately, and is reminded of Dudley *only* by Draco's behavior. Only on gut there. Later, of course, he asks Hagrid and gets Hagrid's version of the houses, but his first initial dislike of Draco is kept very carefully untainted of any foreknowledge of anything that would put Draco into any kind of wizarding world context.

Of course, we can say that their initial meeting was unlucky... Draco managed to push every "yuck" button Harry had, but in the subsequent train encounter, Draco only reinforces that he's not someone Harry would want as a friend. And Harry is pretty willing to turn his opinions around on a dime with some positive evidence... I mean, Sirius. One minute he's the murderer Harry wants to kill, the next Harry's ready to move in with him.

I think we can see every event and action like a tiny fork in the road--each one could easily be undone (ie say Malfoy is more politic in his phrasing and later Harry does take Malfoy's hand in the train). But eventually the sum of all those little choices a character makes describes an overall path informed by their personality traits. Yes, Harry could have not been offended by Malfoy initially, or he could have taken his hand, or he could have, could have etc etc. But how soon until Draco said something about muggle intermarriage that insulted Harry's mum? Or made fun of poor people (Harry has always worn cast-offs and crap glasses)? I know some people see that 1st day as a tipping point, and "if only x, they could have been friends," but I think their personalities/circumstances mean that anything other than Harry's initial/eventual dislike of Draco was very very unlikely.

Re: *disagrees*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eeehehe! Duuuude. I want to draft you as my (other) logic advisor (well, 'cause Magpic is already one, heheh-- but I need all the help I can get!), where like, you can just point at you if I want to make sense (in retrospect), eheheh. I mean, intuitively I just "know" things about Harry, but you actually broke it down into details & timelines! Wheeee! I'm just easily confused -.-
I think it one's view of canon depends on whether one wants to believe in the basic validity of Harry's pov. Like, you do & I do (to a significant extent, anyway), but if you look at it all from a viewpoint that's suspicious of Harry & Hagrid & Dumbledore & Gryffindors, these basic details in the text become... I dunno... under question.

And... even though I'm very (very!) sympathetic to the Slytherins & want to write stories about them and know more about them & redeem them somehow-- in the end, I'll buy Harry's version of history & his ideas of his motivations over any other, simply because that emotional context -is- "the story" to me as much as something more "factual" would be, like the fact that there are 4 houses in Hogwarts. Anyway, I'm just saying that as much as I totally agree with you (or you agree with me... whatever), the thing is that we're basically buying Harry's pov while malafede is questioning it~:)

It's like, either you believe that Harry's "gut feelings" are "true" or you don't. I suppose it's good to have a healthy amount of skepticism in any case, but in the end I feel like it's more fun to trust Harry (and Dumbledore) because that's what the story wants me to do. It's the sort of leap of faith one makes while reading superhero comics too, y'know. Like, they can make horrible mistakes a lot of times, right, but "intended reader" will always kind of look through the eyes of foresight, knowing that all will be cleared in the end. You can just basically -trust- heroes. Or not trust them, if you can't identify with them and their sense of certainty in the world as they see it, whatever happens.

I suppose I identify with that sense of innate certainty-- that wild intuition that is somehow 'right' even when it falters-- in spite of everything, reality included. If anything, this isn't a 'realistic' genre in the first place, so it's not productive to judge it based on whether this is how people would "really work". So, um, I guess in "reality" (i.e., in another story with a subtly different Harry), you could say Harry was brainwashed or weakened by his environment to the point where you can't just trust him anymore than you could trust any 11 year-old kid. In 'Harry Potter', of course Harry made the instinctive right choice-- Harry -knew-, in spite of any evidence to the contrary, however unlikely. Just as we (the two of us, anyway), kind of "know" what Harry knew, in a similar sort of leap. Or something :>

Re: *disagrees*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Anyway, I'm just saying that as much as I totally agree with you (or you agree with me... whatever), the thing is that we're basically buying Harry's pov while malafede is questioning it~:)

I am the voice of Harry Potter’s coscience. Dude, that’s a beautifully cliched sentence. Has it ever been used in a fanfic?)

Like, they can make horrible mistakes a lot of times, right, but "intended reader" will always kind of look through the eyes of foresight, knowing that all will be cleared in the end. You can just basically -trust- heroes. Or not trust them, if you can't identify with them and their sense of certainty in the world as they see it, whatever happens.

The thing is, I am in desperate need of a hero, but I am hard to please. Most of them I don’t buy – most of them disappoint me. I don’t think Harry is a hero. I think he’s going to become one.

Re: *disagrees*

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Oh, I totally have that "trust" in the heroic pov. Subtext can be fun, but usually I have to find the text as fun/more fun than its subtext to be interested in a story/show. I cry at manipulative movies and often like the heroes best. Anti-heroes? Faugh. I thought Eugine Onegin and Holden Caufield were whiners. Am so simple and a tool for The Man. -_-

Now that I have destroyed all credibility for my ability to do a sophisticated reading of anything...


About the "validity of Harry's pov..." I see this argument all the time and grr.

While I think it sounds like a valid idea in the abstract, I don't think it usually applies if you actually consider specific text from the books. So, I feel like it becomes a way of denying canon!reality. Like... Oh, no, Draco's not a nasty, bigot, that's just *Harry's pov*. Harry just *doesn't understand*. >:O

For all that we have a 3rd person Harry-limited (except sometimes for the 1st chapters) pov, there *are* things we can take as objective facts, right? Now, I'm probably very influenced by the book-pov in making my judgments about things in the HP-universe (as I am simple like that), but I try to have some "hard evidence" to back my opinion up, evidence that isn't based on hearsay or adjectives.

(An example: take Lucius Malfoy, your favorite character ^^. You could believe he's a nasty creep because Ron says so and we hear various (often very nice) people say mean things about Slytherins and Malfoys. Not the strongest argument. Maybe he's really a nice guy if we only got to know him. But the confrontations we actually "witness" at the ends of CoS and GoF *are* really good evidence that he is very cruel, and thinks little of killing or inflicting harm upon others.)

Now, obviously, yeah, there is a bias in the book-pov. The book-pov gives us the flavor of Harry's thoughts with word choice and value-judgment descriptions, and (except for the 1st chapters), I don't think we ever see/know/notice anything (explicitly) that Harry doesn't.

But I think we can make some limited judgments, if we assume that the pov never "lies" to us about objective facts. It's not that kind of unreliable-narrator story. So, Draco *did* say, "Nobody asked your opinion, you filthy little Mudblood." Harry *did* stab the basilisk with the sword in the Chamber.

Yeah, maybe Draco saves kittens when Harry's not around, maybe he really has a crush on Hermione or is a double-agent and just has to act mean, but based on what he's done/ how he's acted... I'll agree and find Harry's opinion of him pretty spot-on, gut-instinct-inspired or no. There may be hidden facets and possibilities... (and there *are* things that maybekinda hint at potential)... so Harry's/book's-pov opinion *isn't* all-encompassing. That isn't all that Draco is. But even though it isn't all-encompassing, the book/Harry-pov-sponsored opinion can still be valid in the known areas of Draco it does consider.

Re: *disagrees*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oh boy, we really are diametrically different, aren't we? I have a subversion reflex while reading. I mean, two paragraphs in any text with a token hero I start wondering in how many ways he is trying to lie to me. The Man needs to bend over and take it like... a man, really. *celebrates difference* Though what you said about Holden Caufield is very mean. I crushed pretty hard on him.

Now I am curious to know what characters you hated in SD.

I think you weren't referring to me, anyway, as long as I'm concerned Draco's actions are text and can't be denied. I mean, I hate victim Draco. I hate when it people twist his characterisation around to fit the blond hottie with the moral-highround stereotype. The best thing about Draco for me is that he's such a little monster, you know? I think subversion in this case just means you refuse to listen to the authorial suggestion that he deserves to be dismissed as the card-board face of new generation evil. It doesn't mean I am blaming Harry for Draco's nastiness - it just means I enjoy making up scenario where Harry can rediscover and forgive him. :)

Re: *disagrees*

[cellia.livejournal.com]

^^;; I only have a distrust reflex when reading the news. When reading fiction, I'm very trusting... I try to throw myself into it as much as possible since that's the experience being sold. (This might be why I can't watch horror movies) And also, me=simple.

I disliked Holden as soon as I learned he'd lost the fencing team's equipment on the subway. I kept thinking about that damn equipment for the entire book... ^^;; I have some sympathy for him now, but when I read it >:O But, hey, if everyone liked the same type of guys, we'd all be in trouble.

I feel like we're going to have to get very tolerant and into celebrating difference to deal with each other's views in HP ^^;;

For SD, I saw djs of SD before I ever saw the show or read the manga. So I have no problem with silly fanon there, since that's what I fell for in the 1st place. (Although, after reading the manga, I felt there should be more AkagiXHanamichi or AotaXHanamichi, but I can see why there's not)

I don't dislike anyone... they're all kind of adorable teens. Rukawa probably annoys me the most, and I don't find him cool, but I can find him funny. I like him best when he's just being bizarre. Hm. You could probably map my protagonist/antagonist feelings about SD onto HP. (and how does this fit into SenHana-loving pastles now being into Harry/Snape? ^^)

Hm. Was Rukawa your favorite? Sakuragi? The 2 morons got equal love? Did you hate Kogure? *has bad memory*
(and is MitKo the Remus/Sirius of the SD world?)

It doesn't mean I am blaming Harry for Draco's nastiness - it just means I enjoy making up scenario where Harry can rediscover and forgive him. :)

And I want to read this scenario! You need to write some more H/D! :D

I think I just have a reflex reaction to Draco-love. I like the bitch-monster idea too. (am a h/d fan after all) It's just so often that if I read a fic that is really Draco-sympathetic or centric, I get a crappy Harry. And since I am all about the hero-love and Goodness... I get grumpy when Harry is demonized to make someone else seem cool.

Re: *disagrees*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

*loves*

I haven't finished editing the SD fics and I am having an unexpected social life this weekend, but I swear to God I'm going to send them over asap.

You should beta for me! No really! I need a tool of the Man to keep my skewed Slytherin perspective straight! :D

I was a total Hanamichi fan, man. And I couldn't stand Kogure. >:O Die, you useless grovelling passive-aggressive swine! Ahahah. Also with the self-righteousness. Mitsui/Kogure turned me off in a big way. And I am so with you on Rukawa. The best Rukawa is drooler Rukawa.

Mmh, I need a RuHana icon. I also need a "bitch, please, I am a monster" icon. And I know about [character X]-love reflexes - same thing happens with me and Neville.

icons 4 u

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Ha! I knew you'd hate Kogure! ^^ 

There's no real need to gussie up the fics for me, I loved 'em broken English and all, but I'm all for it if you want to.

For your icon needs:
 




from me (aka "tool of The Man")

Thanks!!!

[malafede.livejournal.com]

See? Tools of The Man can be useful! They can become your own tools with the right amount of bribing. *g*

I'm sending them over as they are, then. I suppose it can be seen as a study of the evolution of writing skills... or, err, not. Oh my God, those fics are real crap, I'm threatening suicide if you pass them around. Err. Okay. If asked for it.

Re: *disagrees*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I think it's carefully presented that Harry *does* make a choice in SS about Draco without any outside influences.

You know, you are kinda right about this. Then again, I feel Harry’s judgment is always impaired when it comes to Draco because… well, that first time, I think his primary impetus was jealousy. Still, Harry would be a Slytherin if Hagrid hadn’t fed him misinformation about it being the Dark Wizards House.

And Harry is pretty willing to turn his opinions around on a dime with some positive evidence... I mean, Sirius. One minute he's the murderer Harry wants to kill, the next Harry's ready to move in with him.

Hee! This actually fits the Red Herring Draco theory, so it’s all good.

I know some people see that 1st day as a tipping point, and "if only x, they could have been friends," but I think their personalities/circumstances mean that anything other than Harry's initial/eventual dislike of Draco was very very unlikely.

Draco was very snooty and Harry was very judgemental and that’s it in my book. It also sadly started a perverted cycle, because the more Harry rejects Draco, the nastier and more unpleasant Draco becomes in Harry’s eyes, the less Harry likes him, the more Draco is nasty. Harry is very good at forgetting his friends’s shortcomings and demonizing his enemies’s. Which is kinda normal, because he’s 15. But I think if he had taken Draco’s hand that day, Draco wouldn’t quite be so awful to him, and they could have developed a friendship, because Harry would have been a lot more indulgent of Draco’s brattiness.

Re: *disagrees*

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Heh, if they'd been friends, maybe they'd have gotten into all sorts of cool trouble together ala James and Sirius. Though, maybe it's just as well, James and Sirius weren't always so nice. (will one day finish my essay on why James/Sirius is 1000x more canon than Remus/Sirius)

Perhaps if not for Ron and Hagrid, Harry would have ended up in Slytherin, but how can we know what the hat would *really* have done? Maybe it would have just tested him in another way about wanting power, and he would have been put into Gryffindor anyway... I think Snape would have been just as nasty to Harry in Slytherin, so I think he's well out from under him.

But I don't think it's fair to give Harry quite so much... responsibility, I guess, for Draco. Like, it's all Harry's own fault Draco is so nasty to him. Draco is nasty to many people, often unprovoked. Doesn't Draco need a voice of conscience as well? (In his own way, I think he might want to be a hero too. It's hard to tell. Not enough info on him to say for sure. He does go in for more willful cruelty than Harry, but still... )

Harry happened to humiliate him, but Draco set himself up so that it would have taken a pretty good politician to turn down the offer without offense. And that Harry should *want* to be Draco's friend...

In terms of a story, it'd be fun to see them as friends (or, of course, more), but--looking at it as if I were a person making a decision about who to hang about with... I don't Harry's judgment is necessarily off in not wanting to associate with Draco.

Re: *disagrees*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

The problem with me, probably, is that I find discussion of possible past canon kinda... fruitless, since things happened the way they happeend for a reason (unlike 'real life', where that's debateable-- in a decent story, it's not). So... events have meaning, have weight beyond the obvious sum of coincindences and such that superficially "made" them happen. It's like, especially with such an important decision as whether Harry's in Slytherin-- which is actually central to the whole series-- it strikes me as almost funny that so many people think that one could change that without changing -everything-, including the fact of some major characters surviving. Including Harry. A better question would be, what -wouldn't- have been different. Probably, yes, Snape would still hate Harry :>

I know a lot of people have this kink for Harry-in-Slytherin stories, and while I don't have a specific 'Issue' with them, they just kinda make me sad. It's clear that Harry's Slytherin side isn't exactly a reflection of his best qualities-- basically, a lot of it's "influence" from Voldemort (like Parseltongue or whatever)-- clearly, his genetics and moral disposition place him squarely in Gryffindor. It's like the people who seriously think he's one foot in Slytherin -want- him to have embraced the Voldemort within him. Okay, maybe I'm overdoing it, but still. Harry's no run-of-the-mill Slytherin, y'know. If he wasn't going to save the wizarding world, he could very well have become the next great Dark Wizard.

I vacillate between liking Draco and agreeing with Harry that he's a stupid prick and knowing I'd never make friends with him, heheh. That's the pitfall of writing both their pov's, heheh. They just kinda cancel each other out in my head, I guess. In general, I think that Draco's seemingly different with different people, and the one thing I'm clear on is that Harry & Draco don't mix well. I mean... er... unless you add hormones ;))

I like anti-heroes or heroes, depending on the text of the story & how good it is. I'd never actually thought that made me 'simple', just lazy :D I rarely like all-out villains just because... they're so... unrealistic. In real life, people are just psychotic, not evil. :>

People cling to straws, as far as the pov-as-excuse thing, I think. A lot of people just don't like Harry (...yeah) and -need- a way to reinterpret the books to enjoy them. Why do they like them in the first place... you got me. The -only- reason I love the books, really, is because I love Harry-- everything else follows, but without that there'd be -nothing-. That's just me, of course.

I really really dislike the Draco-is-mean-because-of-Harry or "because of", period. Too many bad, scarring H/D fics, what can I say.

Also, another problem people have is that JKR's portrayal of Slytherins & Draco & 'villain' type people is pretty two-dimensional and unrealistic, however "canon", so they desperately look for loop-holes 'cause they do like the books in general. Or something. Me, I don't care. I'm zen about the books & the bad characterizations or whatever, since I used to HATE the books with a fiery passion. Now, I just coast along cooing 'cause I love Harry and everyone else can go to hell. Except Ron, 'cause dude. Ron <3

Re: *disagrees*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Please please please write that essay! I'm begging here. I really don't get the little attention J/S has received, especially if compared to R/S. Which is not to say that one is wrong and the other is right... just, James/Sirius always seemed kinda obvious to me. I'd even go as far as to bring out authorial intent. :D And yeah, if Harry had been sorted into Slytherin, I totally believe the H/D dynamic would have been very similar to the J/S one. With all the nastiness as well. Harry would have probably gotten his bitch on a lot earlier than he did in the actual canon, whereas Draco would have felt even more comfortable lording his Malfoy hieracy all over the Slytherins. I love rotten friends.

Oh, I didn't mean Draco is Harry's responsibility at all, or that Harry's to blame for Draco's shortcomings. It was just a rather clinical assessment of cause/effect, you know? I don't doubt Draco would still be the pampered brat he is even while having Harry at his side (probably that would make him feel safer, if anything) - I'm just saying that he would be nicer to Harry, if not to everybody else. He seems a good friend to Pansy and C&G.

I think Harry's judgment is off about the whole Slytherin House. I don't know if this is authorial intent or not - I'm still mulling that over - but it just reads like a very skewered perspective. If Draco is the bully, why is he the one who always gets his ass kicked? Real bullies don't work that way. And how convenient that Pansy gets to be a prefect (which shoudl imply a good academic record if Hogwarts worked like any other school) but Hermione informs us immediately that she's still an idiot, because no Slytherin is allowed to have good traits?

I'm really not trying to say Draco is a good person and Harry is not - I think Draco is nasty, prejudiced, snooty and petty. Just, he is still a person, you know? With the dramatic flair and the fear of the dark and the ego issues. This makes me human in my eyes, and I am naturally going to challenge a narrative that asks me to dismiss him as inhuman. :)

Re: *disagrees*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Y'know, this reminds me of... someone (my memory is... swiss-cheese) who said something about how the people who say Draco's mistreated and dismissed by the text overlook the fact that the text mistreats Mr Filch & Millicent & Wormtail & Fudge & etcetc, too, and most Dracophilic people don't go around writing epics & post after post about them :>

Maybe I'm just blithely unconcerned about what the text does and doesn't "do" or say about Draco because lots of texts dehumanize lots of characters (I call it.... *dramatic pause*... "bad characterization", and write off the -author-). Also, I'm disturbingly Harry-centric, but that's neither here nor there.

Um, I was just commenting 'cause you were talking about the J/S-type interaction with Harry in Slytherin, and most of those fics don't go there, actually, but I wanted to pimp Kassie (ethrosdemon) 'cause like, no one ever does. So um, read her `True Heir (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=ethrosdemon&keyword=True+Heir&filter=all)' series. Eeeee, her Draaacoooooooooooo. Heh.

He's neither canon nor fanon. He's all Kassies & he's... well... yeah~:)

(whups, my bias showing? ^^;;)

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Also, I'm disturbingly Harry-centric,

NOT DISTURBING AT ALL

*loves on Harry*

Re: *disagrees*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the rec! Gonna read that as soon as I can. :)

Harry-in-Slytherin

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Well, James is not only married and dead, but also we only see him flashbacks, so it's hard to use him in slash (not that that stopping Sirius now ^^;;). But yeah, "embraced like brothers"... could there be any more of a neon "THIS IS IN NO WAY SEXUAL" sign? I mean, I can see the fun of twisting it round, but I never saw it myself as anything but brotherly until I hit the internet. (I was all about Harry/Voldemort in CoS and James/Sirius)

But it keeps getting mixed up with this "Remus doesn't really concern himself much Harry" thingy I'm also trying to piece together. ag. words hard. I don't know how you writers do it. In your non-native language no less!

I go back and forth over "if Harry was in Slytherin, he'd be friends with Draco." I think "definitely" one day and "no way" the next. Because 1 doesn't necessarily follow the other. Mad Martha wrote this Harry-in-Slytherin story where he took Draco's hand and then ended up in Slytherin.... but he never really got along with Draco and his sycophantic circle and became mostly a loner--just as before Hogwarts. (Of course this was all au and a H/R, but certain things about it were interesting conjectures)

Maybe young Harry wasn't ready for a friend/whatever like Draco. He'd never had any friends before, and he's a bit oblivious/introverted, so he needed true-blue loyal people like Hagrid and Ron and Hermione who would stick by him and not play head games or have tangled or ulterior motives.

Draco would have been too confusing and difficult as a friend for him when he was little. I think it's only when Harry's older and has a little more solid foundation under him that he can "manage" a high-maintenance person like Draco.

Re: Harry-in-Slytherin

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oooo. *is highly intrigued*
I've never heard the theory about Draco being too high-maintenance, but y'know, that makes perfect sense to me...! *grins* I definitely think he was needing to heal after the Dursleys & thus had to have "true-blue" friends who were fiendishly loyal & straightforward. And also, y'know... who'd look up to him, who'd -need- him in a way Harry liked (as in, Ron being all pleased with Harry's buying them both sweets). I always thought that was so sweet & simple. People really do make friends over stuff like that when they're 11. Heh.

I've only ever read the H/D by Mad Martha, and though it was well-written, I didn't read anything else (I have to really love your stuff to read any H/R especially) 'cause I didn't buy her vision of Draco. At all. People really go way overboard in the HP fandom if something's written in a mature style, whereas that sort of thing is expected in "older" fandoms like Highlander or Star Wars or what have you. *sigh* It's like, there are plenty of fics that are well-wrought but don't have the right -feel- like, at all. I really also get annoyed at how everyone coos if there's a finished work. Like, OMG IT'S NOT A WIP, OMG THE WONDER & THE GLORY!!1 I mean, there are so many WIPs that's understandable, but still :/

Draco didn't seem to wanna be friends, anyway, not like Ron (who just liked Harry for -Harry-). Draco, on the other hand, was all "omg, Potter! What great alliance material!". I mean, Draco clearly has no problem using people for his own ends (Crabbe & Goyle) from the start, which I think is canon, thus I'm somewhat bemused by everyone who writes "Draco & Vince & Greg" fics. Eeurgh. Oh yeah, he's -friends- with the hulking trollish ones, sure. :>

Though I have a weakness for S/R (I blame Ailei & Khirsah & all the great fic), I do see how J/S is "more canon". That just proves that "more canon" doesn't mean "better" :> Since really, H/D is not at all canon and Harry/Cho is~:)

Re: Harry-in-Slytherin

[cellia.livejournal.com]

I see I must renounce my evil H/D ways for Harry/Cho.

:D

But yeah, i don't think "more canon" always equals better. I t just... tends to be. Because, for all that I'll pick at JKR's writing, her characterization is usually better than something that tries to go another direction. Especially as that other direction tends to be "2 random guys get it on/ fall in love" or "Draco is awesome and Harry sucks."

Also, i imprinted on canon. Like you say... even a well-written fic can feel wrong if you just disagree with some of the basic premises/characterizations (insert 95% of all well-written and well-beloved fics here as examples). I'll repeat myself to say that I guess everyone has different canonical things close to their heart that they have to have... or that they can let go of in service of a kink/style-genre pref.

And, on the flip-side, even a not-well-written fic can charm me if it hits something I really go for--kink or just something I believe in about the HP world / life in general.

OMG I am writing so much.

Re: Harry-in-Slytherin

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eheheheh I love being mutually verbose. Makes me feel less like a freak and more like an... um... person with fannish quirks. Ahem. hee >:D

I totally was thinking that about kinks while reading `High Standards (http://www.astronomytower.org/authors/mrose/HS.html)', heheh. Like, I'm such a sucker for cutely-befuddled!Harry & smirky-yet-dorky!Malfoy. Silvia has completely skewed my responses so that I see something that reminds me of her style and I'm like a Pavlov's dog. I totally start salivating. Yes, that was my sneaky way to rec it, just in case :D

Whereas I'm really wary of `A Thousand Beautiful Things' 'cause it seems So Serious, y'know. It doesn't matter if I disagree with the characterization in a fluffy-humor fic, y'know, 'cause the fluffy humor & boy-crushing(!) is my kink. But in a Serious Work, I have all this stuff to pick at, and I remember how many prejudices I've acquired in my perception of Harry & Draco. Draco especially, I feel is rarely done well when serious, y'know. Heh. Trying to think of a "serious" Draco I thought was great-- can't. Fave Dracos are Miss Breed's, Silvia's, Maya's, Trin's, Kassie's, Cassie Claire's-- all of them smirky-mocky-bastard types. Heeee! Le sigh.

I'm so so distrustful of "noble" Draco. Someone said he was noble in a review & now I'm like GAH WHY DO I READ THESE STUPID REVIEWS BEFORE I READ THE FIC, DAMMIT!! >:O This is what happened with every other "popular" new H/D longfic. I look at the reviews and someone says something about Draco (like how "mature" or "noble" or "well-developed from canon" he is), and start to go "uh-oh", heh.

No one seems to write epics with whiny-silly-snarky-spaz!Draco. WHY GOD WHY?!?!?! *stews* You can't have a "noble" spaz, can you? DAMN THEM ALL!!1 heh

...Still can't remember any serious Draco's I -liked- rather than just tolerated. (I like Ivy's & Aja's-- but I don't love them). Damn, there must be -something-. There must be a thoughtful, romantic Draco I can do more than stomach. Maybe.

...

...

I liked Rhysenn's. Yeah, okay, laugh :P

He was a total freak, with the over-the-top romanticizing and the virulent hatred/love thing. He was... y'know... emotional, volatile, extreme. So even though he wasn't a prat, exactly, I dug the characterization beyond just stomaching it (also, it was one of the first H/D's I read, and I can't seem to grow out of it). *sigh* I guess the whole 'passionate & rageful' thing is like, very vital for my can't-let-go Draco template. That "noble" thing is haunting me. Haunting, I say ^^;


...Ahaha you think -you- write a lot >:D
*wins*

Re: Harry-in-Slytherin

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Talk to me about r i d d l e's Draco, baby. Whaddya think?

(I can't laugh at anyone for liking anything.... I love so many really *blatantly* crap things... and often with little-to-no irony! *cough*cough*Maizeysugah*cough* yeah, yeah shut UP...I *know*, okay! Much like Harry with Draco, we cannot always choose where our passion takes us.)

Re: Harry-in-Slytherin

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

ahhh!! Yes!!! Okay, good, good, apparently I -do- like some serious Draco's. I think I forgot the extreme-weird-angst category, see. But that's not "serious", per se (ie, it's not 'drama')... it's like... camp drama. Y'know what I mean? Riddle's Draco is very over-the-top (like Rhysenn's)-- like, extreeeeemely moody & tortured & dark. YUM. Then again, again, this is one of the first Dracos I read, so :D But yes! Her & Penelope Z & Antenora, actually, all have a similar "type" of Draco I really dig. The really dark, semi-psychotic, semi-demonic angel sort. Also, Riddle's writing is Teh Psychedelic, eheheh :D

That's not too common, though, these days :/ The intellislash has died out. Wah.

Riddle's Draco was a major inspiration, though :D
Psychosis, man. I love that in a bloke >:D

Re: Harry-in-Slytherin

[cellia.livejournal.com]

I was looking through my "stories I like" link list for a noble Draco... and couldn't find any :(

Well... Best Enemies Draco is kinda nice to Harry when he's down. Does that count?

(I can give you several H/S a Ron/Pettigrew and various links to the same H/R)

Msut go to bed now if I want to remain conscious at work tomo-today.

Re: Harry-in-Slytherin

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I'm going to bring this to my lj, if you're both okay with it? Aaargh, I have like, 0 time right now, but I'll make a post about these issues sometime around Monday. I'm really enjoying this exchange.

Pov says as much about the narrator as it says about reality. Does reality exist at all?

Re: Harry-in-Slytherin

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*is taunted by reality reference*
That's one of my hot-button topics, along with Does Identity Exist :D

In fiction, I would say that both definitely exist, though that's much more fluid in some fiction than others (and HP isn't one of those fluid post-modern-type fics). In reality (haha), I would hesitate to say that 'reality' exists, however >:D

A skewed pov of Slytherin

[cellia.livejournal.com]

I think the whole 100% eevil Slytherins-especially-Draco is really a problem of JKR not growing out of the kid lit cliche formula as she makes her stories more "adult/real." Slytherin/Draco fits really easily into the mean bully/ evil rival slot. And in kid lit, the bully always somehow loses to the plucky underdog kid hero again and again and never learns (I mentioned it to reena earlier here.)

But, of course, when we think about it as an adult-realistic story and not just a fun cartoon fairytale... it makes no sense! Why would there be an evil house? How did a half-blood like Riddle get in if pure blood was supposed to be such a big deal to Slytherin? How likely is it that they're *all* nasty future death eaters? Pansy is an idiot and Millicent joins Umbridge's little squad and not 1 Slyth comes to one of Hermi-I mean, Harry's meetings? Not 1 Slyth Harry's age seems even kinda ok?

For me, the problem is that JKR doesn't give us any real implications that the Harry-book pov isn't 100% correct on the matter of the Slytherins. And she could do it without Harry having a change of heart... If she wanted to show the reader that there were some not-eeevil Slytherins, all she had to do was note some of them playing exploding snap or doing their homework or being a nice partner to Dean in potions. Many ways for the pov to explicitly say one thing and imply another. And, done right it can add this cool, subtle tension, and an extra layer of characterization. But... I don't think JRK is working the "what pov says about reality vs. what this implies about reality" disparity at all. (for the Slyth/Draco matter, at least)

And, there should be a disparity, right? The Slytherins can't all be nasty. It's completely illogical, not to mention dehumanizing. But JKR gives us no contradictory implications, so we're left with "... this shit makes no sense. Maybe Harry doesn't notice things. He has to be misunderstanding some other stuff. Ag, canon is fighting with logic... whatever, let's make up some fairly likely stuff to fill in the gaping blanks."

This makes me human in my eyes, and I am naturally going to challenge a narrative that asks me to dismiss him as inhuman. :)

I think many readers are missing this pov vs realty disparity, and supplying their own since JKR hasn't given us potloads. It's not author-sanctioned subtext, but who cares, right? JKR has kinda fallen down on the job with this one in a way, so now there are many different ways any fan could go. It seems to me that you fight with the simplistic premise of the text itself on the Slytherins. That requires a lot of personal invention though, with not much (canon-based) to pin it on. So not everyone will agree, and there's not much you can use to "prove" yourself one way or another. (So, I think many Slytherin-centric fics really stand or fall on the author's skill)

I'm more of an obedient weenie, and want to toe the canon line as much as possible when exploring other possibilities. I like to see some kind of reflection of the canon as I recognize it--I feel like the characters are being maligned or glamorized otherwise--but, you know... also with guys having kinky sex. ^^;;

(It might just be that everyone has their bits of canon interpretation they need to be present, and everyone has the things that they can let go of)

Re: A skewed pov of Slytherin

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. Everyone has things they can and can't let go of. thamiris made a post once about the parallel templates slash readers/writers have-- where basically, we all pick our own instinctive "canon" as the basis for how we perceive things and what we compare new fanfic to. Ergh, it made more sense when she wrote it, but I didn't put it into memories, so. *cries*

Anyway, that phrase is central: "canon as I recognize it". It's really wacky, the amount of impact a reader has on a text, really. I subscribe to the idea that a book as we actually experience it is really a collaboration between the reader & the writer. It doesn't really exist except in this in-between limbo of their input and your output of expectation, past experience, language/plot sensitivity and personal character-type & situation bias. Everyone reads a different story in the end-- sometimes subtly and sometimes wildly so. I'm just fascinated by the variations in the templates, myself~:) (Prolly why I like fanfic. Some people can't stand variation from what they see as The One True Template, so they can't stand fanfic.)

Often enough, I can convince myself I just want Harry & Draco to understand each other, to really -bond- or something, y'know. Viva le reslash! Etc. And then... yeah :> I remember I want them to have wild moneky sex, too. Or maybe, especially. ^^; And yet, I'm unhappy if it's hate-sex. I hate being known for writing that, 'cause I don't actually -like- the idea, y'know? I mean, antagonistic!sex is great (...friction!), but hate-sex sounds like mutual rape or something :/

I've lost my point again, haven't I ^^;

Re: A skewed pov of Slytherin

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Well, of course, canon as *I* recognize it is the One True Way. Everyone else is just Wrong. It all becomes clear if one realizes that the universe revolves around me.

^^;;

But I do think that there are some "interpretations" that are just... more wishful thinking and fantasy fulfillment that any logical extrapolation from the text. Naturally, those are fine when they hit one of my lame kinks, but when they hit one of my annoyance buttons, they are Evil and Wrong.

Re: A skewed pov of Slytherin

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

In the end, as open-minded as one tries to be, it's hard to let go of the idea that some things are -true- and some -aren't-, even (especially?) fictional things, ahahaha. *coughs* But yeah, I think what's closer to the truth is, some things are -stupid- and some -aren't- :D