~~ too bad, so sad...

[reenka]

Thing is...

HP, fandom-wise, is starting to frustrate me more than anything else, especially 'cause I'm the type of person to always go looking outside my little comfort-zone out of some sort of... I dunno... perversity. So I go looking at the lj's of people who ship Sirius/Snape or Lucius/Snape or whatever, and on the one hand, it expands my horizons, and on the other hand it frustrates me. I still get the urge to defend Draco whenever someone seems to not understand him in the slightest, but I'm -tired- of that now, 'cause it won't -matter- to anyone other than the people already receptive to the ideas. The others don't actually -read- mostly H/D-centric journals, I figure. There's only so much time in the day, all that.

It's just... I dunno why I'm so sensitive to people's different little mini-verses within the larger Potterverse fanon, but I am. I don't -care- about the non-B/S shippers. Things that go against my OTP in some other fandom might discomfit me, but they don't actually -bother- me with any serious intensity. Whereas I've gotten -more- rather than less sensitive to things in HP with time, it seems.


I think it's just... not that I really have issues with any pairing-- it's more how there's a -stance- that liking a certain pairing seems to imply. If it's true in other fandoms, I'm not aware of it. I have no clue if Buffy/Spike shippers are different in "type" and overall outlook than say, Spike/Xander shippers. Blissful ignorance, really. They seem to all be friends with each other. I don't get a sense of segregation between factions-- though obviously I'm very -very- outside it all and have barely read any lj's at all, so I'm just going by sites linking to each other.

I feel like it's not just a question of different strokes for different folks in HP, not entirely. It's just hard to find a real point of commonality at -all-, even though supposedly we all like the same thing-- but there are a number of people that are just here for the hotness of Alan Rickman, it seems. What do I have in common with them? And why do I even care if I don't? I don't know. I guess I -don't- care. And well... I like it that way.

It's even more ironic because I don't actually feel a vast similarity of outlook with the great majority of the H/D faction, either, because it tends to be light on analysis and is kind of... one step above Draco/Ginny, as far as general masses. But it -really- frustrates me that the adult-shippers hold themselves -so- far apart, though I'm sure the segregation is mutual. And it also bothers me that liking Sirius and Remus and Snape almost always necessitates having little if any affection for Harry and Ron and Draco-- and vice versa. I mean, it's not like there are people who only like Giles and Wesley and um, I dunno... I guess the vampires are old... but not any of the Scoobies, right? That's just silly, right?

I wrote all this just to stop myself from writing yet another pro-Draco rant. I'm just -tired- of it now. To hell with it, man. No one cares, and I'd just be rehashing things I'd said a million times before and... okay I'm wasting time anyway, but.

It has nothing to do with me, really. Who cares if people are into the adult characters 'cause of some misbegotten idea that they're hot (and "mature")? No skin off my back, right? It's just... I've spent -so- much time with this and am -so- invested, it's like... I really do feel like this is -my- place, my community, and I feel frustrated and alienated by all the factions and segregation. I suppose it bothers me 'cause I feel like I don't belong.

See... the people I have the most in common with, as far as the majority of them, are usually -not- into H/D. I mean, sure, most of the friends I'd made in fandom -were- into it at some point, but as far as current make-up of the fandom, the people I identify with intellectually (though not emotionally) are usually into rare pairings and adult-slash and emphatically -not- H/D. I think this is a phase thing, and also to do with the fact that HP has such a huge diversity of age-groups in terms of its audience. Buffy probably has a much more stable 18-30 age-group, come to think of it, so maybe that accounts for there being more flow.

I guess it also bothers me, feeling so split between my emotions & my intellect. Emotionally, I'm solidly pro-Draco, pro-Harry, pro-H/D and every other character except Ron could just go to hell for all I care (well, not really, but). I'm very focused. Emotionally, I can't stand it seeing any of the three of them mocked or badly used. I'm very protective. Intellectually, I'm interested in the whole HP universe, in the details of characterization for every character, in the non-romantic interactions, in Sirius, Snape, Dumbledore-- you name it. I actually -enjoy- seeing mockery of Harry and Draco, intellectually, 'cause I'm pretty tired of the bland worship of them elsewhere.

It bothers me having this conflict within me generated by fandom politics, I suppose. I'm actually intellectually interested in anti-Draco people's thoughts on Draco-- I find them refreshing and much more lucid sometimes, 'cause the majority of Draco-lovers are just -waaaaay- off base and into fanon happyland. Which just bores me, even if it was fun at first.

I think at heart, the problem is-- even though I'm a lit-geek, I don't have that much in common with a lot of lit-geeks my age, simply 'cause what I look for in stories is so... different. Which depresses me. Most college-age English major types aren't looking for angsty, angry fairy-tales. Most people who -are-, don't actually think about it and go after it as more than a candy rush. It doesn't help that a part of me honestly sees H/D as a canon-viable pairing moreso than any other pairing with either character-- not that it -will- happen, but rather that it's the most interesting thing that -could- happen, even though it won't. That same part of me thinks that H/D is about as natural in the narrative sense as... I dunno... Batman and Catwoman. It just -works-. It's -there-. Why -wouldn't- people see it, even -if- they don't dig it personally?

Anyway, this is all rooted in people having such -wildly-, insanely different views of the Potterverse and its characters. I dunno if every fandom has this wide of a range or what, but the one in HP kind of makes my head hurt. I mean, I guess it still really does confuse me why people insist with such vehemence that canon Draco couldn't and -shouldn't- have depth or a "heart". Why do people insist on bad characterization, even if it's how canon is? Why? How does it make sense that -any- character (person) is that shallow?

HP fandom has always made me want to enact change, be some sort of revolutionary. Write the One True H/D Fic or the One True Draco Fic that will once and for all prove the worthiness of their subject. Heh. In a way, it's almost funny, 'cause hopefully, that's what -canon- should be for, actually. *sigh*

It'd almost be nice to be in a fandom where the character really -is- sexy ('cause it's an actor), rather than one where I cringe every time someone implies they're there for so-and-so (Snape, Draco, Harry's) sex appeal. I've gotten to the point where even the -implication- of someone digging on them that way is starting to make me sick, kind of. Like, even using duckpuppy's cute little eyeliner!Harry in an icon. Dude, I really loved that pic, but I'm actually feeling a little protective of Harry, seeing that icon. This just has to stop. I dunno how. Prolly this break was for the best, even if unintentional.

Comments

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Um. Yeah. I'm tired of defending Snape to the H/Ders and defending Draco to the H/Sers and I'm tired of everyone characterizing everyone else as idiots.

I am tired of the fact that I like Draco being viewed as some sort of moral failing because I do not have the strength of character to prefer brunettes to blond-haired men, or something like that.

It's just stupid, because people are cutting themselves off from so much pleasure (in the form of good fic), and that's cool, I guess, but that doesn't mean everyone else is a dumbfuck plebe.

Did you see the conversation a week ago or so on Isolde9's LJ about Draco/Snape? I know you and I talked about this before (and you argued that the reason the pairing isn't popular is bec. it doesn't fit the opposites-attract archetype, which makes perfect sense to me). But I also think it's because the ship is everyone's worst nightmare: H/Sers hate Draco and H/Ders hate Snape.

Which sux for me, because I love Draco/Snape, man.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Dude. You make me want to finish my Draco/Snape, 'cause I'm all inspired to buck stereotypes and all that~:)) I like the idea of the worst nightmare, 'cause, ahahahah I personally see where they're coming from ;)
No, okay, it's just that I'm OTP-obsessed and also it seems rather... unhealthy, and that tends to turn me off of things. But! No, I haven't been reading my flist or anything else for that matter for weeks now, heheh. But maybe I'll go check that out~:)

It's only after I wrote this that I've realized you've been saying stuff just like that for months now ^^;

The only thing that's better in the nightmare department is Harry/Draco/Snape, and Tzigane actually wrote that, and yes, it hurt me. Heh. Or at least gave me a headache. And yet, it still had mucho problems with characterization, 'cause I don't think you can even begin to write that and keep it in-character for all involved, considering how hard it'd be getting any pairing of them together. I've never actually seen Snape-bashing (what could you bash? isn't he obviously an interesting character?) though I'm sure it's out there. I just don't know why people -pick- on Draco. No one goes around saying Filch doesn't have a heart, y'know? *laughs*

I mean, not that -I'm- about to actually read -fic- in the S/S or S/D or whatever department, but I think dialogue, at least, can be enlightening-- at least, that's what fandom's for, right. 'Cause you could just lurk and do nothing, if you just wanted to read fic to your heart's content. *sigh* I guess I'm even more of a weirdo 'cause I both am interested in cross-pairing dialogue and don't actually -read- anything other than H/D and small smatterings of S/R & H/S. I just like talking to people I might disagree with without having to deal with them thinking I'm intrinsically unenlightened. Then again, I suppose I think -they're- unenlightened, so it all evens out, doesn't i :>

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

I think that might be either a function of the age of the fandom or your somewhat outside status at the moment. Back in the day (LOL) when I was in Buffy, the wars were vicious and fought excessively (before B/S became canonical but was already subtext, the B/A'ers were fighting for their lives OTP...and the B/A - W/A fights (I think that was before Willow came out :-)...and wasn't there a banner purchasing campaign last year by some shipper section or another?...oh yes, it was the Tara/Willow contingent upset about Kennedy).

In fact, when I entered HP I was strangely reminded of Buffy, b/c all my fandoms in between had OTP's that were pretty much given (like with whom else are you gonna pair Obi-Wan or Jim Ellison or Ray Kowalski or...).

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheheh, I knew it was too good to be true, man. It's a good thing I'm not planning to actually -join- the Buffy fandom. One fandom experience is quite enough for me, thank you. There just seemed more connections between the het & the slash people, but what do I know, indeed :> Or maybe it just doesn't matter now that the show's over, ahahah. No suspense left.

Oh, and the first time I saw W/A was yesterday, and it -still- puzzles me. I'm kind of scratching my head in mystification even now. I mean... did they even have any big interaction? Any moments together? Eh?

Spike & Willow at least seemed to have -some- sort of... dynamic. He even has a pet name for her. Oh well. Here's where my woeful ignorance of all things Seasons 1-3 comes in :>

And you know, I've seen people trying Obi-Wan/Anakin, but er... we'll just pretend that doesn't exist ><;;

Re:

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

Personally, I like any pairings with xanatos or darthmaul or other funny side characters...but i'm odd that way :-)

Oh yes, S1 ands S2 had Willow/Angel aplenty! Pretty much, she was the ultimate MS except that she was already in canon...how convenient :-) you could have your broody vamp and feel all non-MS self-righteous too. LOL.

As for the het/slash thing...I only saw the B/S, B/A A/S side of the fandom, and quite a few het folks crossed over at the time. There was a lot of threesomes as well or B/A friendly folks writing B/S with some serious A/S undercurrents...anyway, I never felt a serious hatred there, but then that was quite a few years back and I was pretty much a mostly silent observer...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Now I'm starting to wonder if Willow was some sort of Buffy replacement or substitute in the beginning....? 'Cause they're such different characters, really, it's really weird to me to pair them with the same people, y'know? I dunno why. 'Cause like, they're best friends, and... if there's already a canon relationship there... like there was with Buffy & Angel... it's just freaky, isn't it? Maybe I'm easily freaked out. Okay, I know that's true :>

It's weird 'cause I just never run across an obscure pairing first-- usually I read whatever pairing grabs my attention and I come across first-- otherwise I wouldn't have read any more fic in that fandom. So I like a fic while surfing fandoms and boom, that's my new OTP. Ahahaha, I'm so fickle. But I guess I just don't run across anything with Xanatos... except one fic where I think he was referenced in a rape scenario, maybe...? heh.

Yeah, B/S lives with B/A okay since S/A are ancient history in canon, pretty much, as are B/A, so it's easy to be kind to them, maybe. No competition, really :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Once again, I seem to just be a mere shadow of you--word to this. I find myself so wishing I could just pretend my corner of HP was the real thing, not because I can't stand opposing opinions but because the CANON is so damn different from one corner to the next. The discussion about Snape/Draco was so interesting to me especially because of spare's comment about H/Ders hating Snape and H/Sers hating Draco and I just don't get that. I ship H/D madly and I love Snape! If I shipped H/S I think I would love Draco. The two characters just don't seem opposed in canon at all.

It's like...I remember there was one X-files person who really hated Mulder and she shipped Scully/Krycek. Not, I think, because she liked the ship but because she got off on Mulder being betrayed. She loved the idea of him finding out, even though this made Scully very different than what she really was...only she didn't see it that way. I sort of feel that way with a lot of HP ships. Like, I don't ship H/D so that Ron can feel rejected. Or Pansy can get abused by a suddenly not-her-friend-at-all Draco. It's like, why is jealousy part of your ship in that way? Draco might love the idea of ousting Ron but that's not a good thing of his.

Also, I think I love spare's description of Draco as a moral failing--though I won't say more because I'm afraid I'm not getting what the real meaning of that is.;-) I just so don't like Fanon Draco as much in so many ways, in lots of incarntions. He's just so somehow raw and real to me in canon despite being a piece of cardboard that I don't want him polished into something with no feelings that just quips all the time--though of course there are some stories feature that type thing that I like anyway because there's something underneath that, for me.

I am definitely just as confused as you on the issue of why people would want Draco to remain souless. It kind of creeps me out, I think. Like when I first came into the fandom I used to say that what bothered me sometimes about his characterization was I felt like I was being encouraged to be implicit in dehumanizing and abusing this person and then pat myself on the back as superior because of it. I mean, why would anyone get satisfaction out of telling themselves they're better than Draco in canon when almost anybody not in prison is better than he is? It's like rather than challenging people to be good they just set the bar really low and claim that not liking him is moral in itself. Like not being the bad guy is the same as being the good guy, which it's not.

But I totally understand what you mean about having that split between emotion and intellect because I am usually in fandom because I loooove some character or another, so I'm probably not going to be able to just shift my attention to another area so easily. And I'm definitely not going to be attracted to a character out of hotness. I might think a character's hot but to really care he's going to have to have something else.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the whole wanting Draco to remain soulless thing is related to people wanting Spike-the-unsouled-vampire to remain soulless -literally-, ahahah. I mean, lots of people like the bad, evil, simpler(?) version of Spike. Like, he's simple and that's -good-. I mean, some people want Spike soulless 'cause his redemption would mean more that way, but I think that's the minority. I really get the feeling like there's a number of people who like... I guess they like making these distinctions, y'know? Like, This Is Who This Person Is. They like the labels, maybe?

Yeah, that's another thing that pisses me off, the way people cling to the whole House-affiliation label, too, even going so far as to slap it on themselves. I think it's related to people liking "the old thing", maybe? No change, just what works. It's like, it doesn't matter so much who the person is as long as they're consistent-- so if they decide they like or don't like that person accordingly, that judgement is going to stay stable, y'know? I can see how people wouldn't like the idea of a universe in flux, I guess. Doesn't mean that doesn't bother me.

So... my guess is, it's not -about- Draco-- they couldn't care less about -Draco-. What matters is his role in the scheme of things, which has to remain constant. Maybe it's like the butterfly effect. If he changes, what else has to change... y'know? Like, I haven't actually thought about this in any depth before, 'cause I don't think in social terms, but if Draco -does- change significantly, other people/social structures -would- be impacted, and not necessarily in the obvious ways like him being suddenly outcast in Slytherin or something, and Ron blah-blah-blah, y'know?

Plus, people like picking on people. Have you noticed that almost every fic has a scapegoat? I don't get that either, the need for a scapegoat, but it's almost -always- there. Even deserves its own post. Like... whoever's the rival or previous love interest is a good bet, generally. They're suddenly stupid and worthless and that was -never- going to work out. So the protagonists are thus uplifted by contrast, hokey as that is. Scapegoating is a common human practice in all sorts of situations, but that doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me like mad.

A lot of people get off on jealousy or putting down the competition or making characters suffer in some cheap way. All I can think of is that it's some kind of power thing, like they're working through their own issues by using these characters. This is tied with people seeing characters as "real", I think, and reacting to them as if it was -them- in a real life situation (the Mary Suing probably comes from a more general source reader response). If you take that as a given, then I suppose people have some insecurity that Draco (or Snape or whoever) is striking at. So either they identify with him or they need to reject him utterly as a human being 'cause he threatens them somehow.

In my experience, people lash out when they're insecure about something, right? So there's that. Moral failing, indeed. And now you have this element of moral high ground that some people take, too. Kind of a dead giveaway that there are Issues there :>

I think in your case (and mine, actually), we're so distant/different from Draco that we don't really feel threatened by him in any way, shape or form, so empathy is easy. We don't identify with him so there's no clingy delusions and we don't -need- him to be anything in particular. I'm not as clear-headed with Harry or Luna, say, 'cause I identify with them more~:)

Never said I was actually -better-, eheheh.

you know how dogs look like their owners? fandoms look like their canons

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Since I don't attach myself to any one fandom, I have a lot of fandom surfing under my belt... I have to say that it's a function of the size of the fandom. HP is just so hopelessly massive that there's this need to carve out places... to have self/other issues come up.

The other thing is the sheer variety of the characters and plots Rowling provides. There are not a lot of binding thematic elements between characters. For instance in, say, Digimon fandom I could compare two younger siblings and there were subtextual parallels there. The diversity makes it hard for people to get into HP as a whole, loving the entire corpus from top to bottom. So they break it up into what they really like, and if there's a ship at the dock, all the better.

I have to say, this is one of the reasons why I believe there is such a difference between yaoi and slash. Yaoi writers simply don't invest themselves in a lot of ship wars. (They war about everything else.) OTP in slash form is an imported, alien concept to us. By and large it's a footnote, something to stick on your website with a cute bunny next to it. However it functions in the same way -- so you can hang out with people who are like you. The larger the fandom gets, the more ship wars become an issue. You want to impress the people who ship the same as you... so trends become accentuated.

It's not just the variety but the numbers of characters. X-Files was such a tough fandom because there were so few characters outside the protagonists. A lot of emotion to be putting on two or three people. HP has a crowd. Especially after the last book. And it's not a tight ensemble cast, it's a menagerie of oddments. It's very hard to love it as a whole.

The other thing is, anime canon is not as subtextually fluid as it is with books, or long movies / complex shows with off-screen scenes. If it's not shown on screen, there are usually references to fill in everything from blood type to favorite food. Anime and most visual media have exactly one point of reference: what the director chooses to show you. Books have the canon written in stone, but the subtext could come from any direction, from the narrator to the minor characters to the thematic weather elements. HP canon is built on such a limited POV that there are gaps *everywhere*. And fandom in any form exists to fill in the gaps.

I'm afraid HP fandom is going to stay fragmented as long as JKR tries to tackle multiple character types and themes and subplots. And honestly, the HP universe is about bullies and power struggles and separating eleven-year-olds into trait-specific Houses. What kind of average fan can you expect from that? But you know, if this were an anime or yaoi fandom, you'd eventually get down to the attitude of "we're all freaks. so what's your ship? can't stand that guy? yeah, I like him. are you broke from buying dvd's yet?" Don't ever let anyone tell you that fandom can ever be a uniform, cohesive entity.

My advice? Don't sweat it. Love the canon the way you want to. If someone wants to go nuts on the character you love, let 'em; they don't call us fanatics for nothing. HP is so massive that the social pressures are tenfold compared to a lot of other fandoms. Ignore it. You'll be happier. But if you really can't stand the way fandom is, go read another book or watch another movie and join their fandom. Chances are you'll find it's better and worse in the same amounts.

Re: you know how dogs look like their owners? fandoms look like their canons

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm... that really does go a long way towards explaining it to me, that bit about the characters' themes not interacting, it all being a mish-mash rather than an ensemble. That totally makes sense! Dude! *lightbulb goes on*~:)

Though personally, I -am- interested in the whole shebang, I guess I do only identify with the H/D-ers, mainly. For a long time I couldn't care less about the adults... it was really OoTP that made me interested. So I guess I'm no different, with my narrow specialization and all that. It's just that I never -disdained- the rest... I was always at least somewhat curious. But then, I'm -always- somewhat curious.

Also, I was way OTP-ish while I was into GW & anime too, but I wasn't in the -fandom-, I just read fic & watched the eps (usually not for the same show), so I guess I don't know. There -are- plenty of ship-centric sites out there, and I guess I surfed the 1x2 sites more than anything else so maybe I don't have a very good picture. Then again, the authors who produced a lot of quality 1x2 didn't seem to write non-1x2, so there's that. And then in the other fandoms, the shipping wasn't even a question, 'cause... like in Fruits Basket... who're you gonna pair Kyou with if not either Hohru or Yuki, right? Er. yeah. Not a lot of experience~:)

I totally dig your point about the "average fan" of something like HP (vs something like Buffy or X-Files or whatever). Yeah, makes sense. A book that espouses certain attitudes is gonna get certain types of people as fans, even though there -is- a huge variety in such a huge fandom. Prolly explains why I tend to bond best with people who aren't too crazy about those aspects of it that you mentioned~:) Or probably the books in general, not in a sort of "this is the best thing EVAR" sort of way.

Don't wanna be in fandom in general, I think, it's not a question of which one. Just got sucked in, y'know~:)

hoping this makes sense

[shusu.livejournal.com]

Humm, rereading my comment, my anime snob came out. She's probably still out. Ignore her. ^_^;;

Gundam Wing is a prime example of how size matters. I wasn't even in that fandom to begin with, but because we were fan-lovin' anime at the same time as GW peaked, we got backwash and/or refugees from that fandom. I think that might have been a lot of people's first experiences with ship wars. It's a saner lot now, but in those days, geez. The canon wasn't just being subsumed, I heard (grain of salt) about instances where fans attacked sites for detailing canon because there was no evidence for their ship.

The same sort of feeling/action is easier to ignore in smaller packs, isn't it? Then it'd just be some trolls, not a clique. Or the difference between hanging out and ganging up.

1x2 is like Troy, a city built on top of seven cities and defended by manic Greeks... and it was that way because Bandai planned it that way. Traditional Gundam fans were biting their thumbs at this bishonen-packed line-up, because Bandai and Sunrise were selling out to the yaoi-loving, cash-waving fan-girls. And thousands of fans fell for their formula, myself included. 1x2 fans *are* really exclusive as a group... and that's because it's hard to shift gears from a simple formula that's been road-tested in the shoujo depths of Japan; not to mention the experience with five-man-team formulas that goes back so far they have a word for it.

This is not to say that JKR is setting us all up. Quite the opposite, fans need to work harder to find the canon back-up because our primary POV is so seldom at all sexual. The thing is, 1x2 is based on a fairly universal formula, a comfort level if you will. When fans do their own picking, they're going to like different formulas and find different comfort levels.

But I'm veering off again... the disdain, the put-downs, all that bad stuff is, IMO, partly from those formulas not meshing, making it anywhere from problematic to squicky, partly from the differing canon interpretations, and partly from people being mean. And sometimes it's just a practical thing... let's say H/D prevents my ship from happening. Suddenly H or D can't be the good guy or even a real character, they have to be the foil or the shadow or the chump. Otherwise the story as a whole doesn't work. That means, quite often, a trip to the land of Rowling to fashion it into an image that will allow the story to survive. Make a space that's comfortable.

I guess in the circles I run in, it's easier to take a many-worlds hypothesis, that this guy could sleep with that guy, or whomever, depending on circumstances, or just consign it to PWP or deliberate OOC. But even then, something like a het pairing of someone I've written as gay forces me to step out of my comfort zone. And if there's canon evidence in a cogent essay, that's even further out. And since Rowling is fabulously detailed about everything yet definite about nothing, HP is going to grow canon-think like mushrooms on a wet log.

Whether or not one gets defensive about having to step out of one's comfort zone is up to the individual fan. Often depending on how far out of that comfort zone it is.

So, y'know, keep writing about what you see in canon. Keep plugging away at it. Tell us what you see (because yer cool ;) ) You may not change everyone's minds, but it keeps the books alive and keeps discussion and dialogue alive. Lit analysis is weird enough without a fandom monkey on your back. If they're going to step on your toes for it, you might want to ask them what territory they're fighting for. Until a certain Ms Rowling sets it in stone, we might as well all be AU.

Re: hoping this makes sense

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ah, so you're saying that 1x2 is more like shoujo than it is like the yaoi pairings fans come up with, 'cause it was actually semi-intended and put their by the creators? I guess that makes sense, and prolly also explains why/how 1x2 was my gateway drug into m/m pairings in general, ahahah. Well, really I started with this one Kyou/Yuki fic, but... well, there was only that one, really, so without GW it prolly wouldn't have made a big impact.

I've always liked the more obvious ships, it seems, mostly 'cause there's usually the most evidence or interaction in canon between those characters, so the fic is better, using more common history, so there's a sense of continuity between different authors, maybe? Just conjecturing. Like, if it's a more obscure pairing, then you can't really have the same evenness of story-- like... you know how a lot of H/D or 1x2 fics are similar, right? I mean, I bet Remus/Draco fics are a lot more dissimilar. I'm guessing. Characterization-wise, dynamic-wise, etc.

Usually, my problem with getting into non-canon yaoi was that they usually did it to shows I'd never watch 'cause they're boy action series type things, and I'd always be watching the shoujo-type stuff. I mean, even my non-shoujo is slightly shoujo (like Vampire Princess Miyu, for instance). So... like, WK... it was never gonna happen. But with GW, I didn't even -need- to watch the show (though I'd seen Endless Waltz), 'cause Heero & Duo were just -such- obvious characters. So basically, I like obvious, 'cause it means I don't need canon as much, eheheheh.

To me, Harry & Draco were equally obvious, and I didn't do more than watch the first movie before I started reading fic. Which is why I sort of expect people to "get it" even if they don't like it. It's a formula that works-- just as Heero and Duo are-- y'know, complementary halves, opposites attracting. Romance for dummies :>

I guess I just have a single vision of Harry & Draco & Sirius & Ron in my head. Even if I write them differently from fic to fic, I still -think- of them in a consistent way. They live in my head, y'know, and they have sex a lot~:))

I'm open to other people's conceptions of any character, though, and with Draco and H/D as a pairing I'm just particularly sensitive 'cause I often respect the intelligence of the people who say they're stupid and/or cliche, y'know? Then again, I suppose I can admit I -like- my stupid cliches~:)

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

Maybe my problem with Draco-centric stories is that they all seem so wilfully OOC to me, but I actually wrote a rant about this and was going to post it because a. I don't really like canon or fanon Draco, and b. I don't 'get' his dominant representations in fandom. So it's interesting to read your points, because while I accept that characterisation is subjective and that fan fiction is all about interpretation, why is it that the Draco in just about every popular story is nothing like the Draco of the books? I mean this in the sense that he's practically an OC and is unrecognisable, and that there isn't even this 'opposites attract' dynamic so beloved to people because he's not Harry's opposite, he's his soulmate.

Why do so few people recognize the ambivalence with which he's portrayed and think, you know, making him all funny and supersexy is actually a massive reinterpretation of the story? That's fine if you can pull it off, like in 'Snitch!' because that story was successful in creating this believable new world. But what about all the people who set stories in the later Hogwarts years and make out that Draco has just Had a Change of Heart and is actually nice? He's a whiny, spoilt, smalltime, pathetic, daddy-obsessed loser who always comes off second best to Harry in their encounters, and why don't people want to write this? Why isn't this ambivalence and negativity at the core of people's DRaco? Apsen is one of the few people I can think of who don't have to glamorise Draco to make him 'worthy' of writing, she sees that his flaws make him compelling, and I really wonder why this is so rare? To back to the Snape/Draco rivalry, at least with Snape there's a subset of writers who insist on him being the creepy greasy, beaky Potions master who knows that he's ugly and has a fucked up personality (though, of course, there's just as many who see him as a sex god).

But Harry - how is he not-sexy? I mean, not as a 14 y.o. boy, but I can definitely imagine him being really interesting when he's older. I think it's astounding how few people in the fandom actually adore him and how he's the forgotten element in so many stories. Especially Harry/Draco - Draco is ALWAYS the preferred character who gets all the best lines and is way hotter, even though he's described as pointy and Harry's gotten the last word in their last ten fights or so.

-brodie

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hehehe so apparently at least one person wouldn't mind if I wrote yet another Draco characterization canon/fanon rantathon :> :>

'Cause I don't think I actually -made- any points about him in this post, other than to say that people who -want- him to be two-dimensional are kind of disturbing to me. I would agree with you that most people's representations of Draco in fanfic aren't up to snuff. That said, I think this references a major difference with how I tend to perceive characters, maybe? I don't usually go by whatever the common interpretations are, when I think of the theory behind things. I sort of... take practice and smother it heavily in the theory of -potentials-. Because potentially, there is a lot that -could- be done (that isn't). Just because it -isn't-, doesn't mean it shouldn't/couldn't be, though. Y'know? I'm all about the theory over practice, I guess.

Practice may show what the people within a given group are capable of but it doesn't necessarily define the -subject- itself, y'know? While the readership may be oriented in a certain way regarding Draco... and that does mean something... Draco's own characteristics, canon and potential, are much wider in scope than that. Some people have a pretty good characterization, I think, but they don't write longfics, or they don't really write get-together fics or they don't actually write expositional what-if fics that tie canon Draco to a changed version. The people who give good Draco tend to stick as closely to canon as possible... which, while it's a good start, is just that. A start. But eh.

Most people's Draco is kind of a joke, really, but I'm addicted so I overlook it a lot of times. I think I ship my own idea of H/D rather than H/D the way most people write 'em, 'cause the way most people write 'em (or most other pairings) is cliche & boring. So here one separates bad writing from subject, again. I think most people's writing is pretty... well... bad, characterization-wise anyway, but it's especially obvious in a difficult pairing like H/D. You'd really have to go through a lot of hoops to make it believable, meant-to-be as I find it. It's hard, so people make it easy for themselves and use cookie-cutter plots and foreign archetypes for Draco that are convenient for their romance.

I kind of hate the soulmate thing, btw, in -any- pairing. I do think they should be together, but... people use it as a cop-out, so it annoys me.

Anyway, I was defending canon Draco, not fanon Draco. I have no particular love for fanon Draco, and my formative fics didn't really have that Draco anyway. I do love some people's fanon, but that's generally 'cause they make him come alive, they make him -real-, which is hard to resist, even though I see where you get the whole OC thing. Then again, who really writes canon!Harry all that well, anyway? People's characterizations are like a house of cards in general.

Anyway, a number of people do write canonish and/or unsexy loser Draco in some guise or other (Aspen, Miss Breed, Silvia, Trin, Penelope, Lasair, and I think Maya in her way) but it's less common for the simple reason that it's -harder-. No one wants the unsexy difficult characterization, man. They're here to have fun. And like... what I -really- want is to see him change, 'cause as-is Draco really doesn't have a lot of places to go, narrative-wise. He -has- to grow up somehow.

I prefer Harry myself, actually, and I didn't say he wasn't sexy, it's just that.... I'm protective, as I said :> He's my woobie~:)

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

Hahahaha, I thought that you *were* saying that Harry isn't sexy and that people were making him out to be something he's not ... crossed wires.

And I'm interested in seeing Draco change, I think you bring up a really good point there. Something has to happen with him, given how quiet he was in book five and how he looked like a little boy in comparison to Harry. I'll have to check some of those writers out, I don't think I knoe Trin, or have read lasair?

-brodie

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well... Lasair/lasultrix just writes `Veela Magic', & ztrin wrote a bunch of short fics with kind of insane loser Draco, heheh. My favorite Draco is prolly some mutant crossbreed of weatherby's, silviakundera's, cursescar's & mistful's, ehehehe. With some bits by Riddle & Penelope & ethrosdemon. Heh. There's actually a lot more variety out there than most people are aware of, it's just that... the lesser-known writers are called that for a reason, I guess :>

heh

[tinderblast.livejournal.com]

I like the idea of this Frankensteined Draco stumbling around fandom - a characteristic from here, an anti-cliche from there ...

Thanks for the links.

-brodie

Re: heh

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Maya's Draco is not canonical. He is handsome, charming, witty, and everyone loves him. Aja -- who adores Maya's Draco -- describes him as the Ideal Boyfriend.

Reena and I have had more than one discussion about this because this ... does not work for me.

Read weatherby's stuff (she writes as Miss Breed). She writes the most canonical Draco in fandom ... I think most people would agree with that. she's at bloom.velveteen.net, I think. Read red. :D :D :D Read the porno-reading fic she wrote recently. :D :D :D

Re: heh

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I'm prolly the only person who reads UL who loves UL!Draco 'cause he's an insecure basketcase with severe intimacy issues. Heh.

Mostly I blame the ask-a-character-a-question thing, 'cause like... he -told- me things, and nothing will ever be the same. He is like... severely messed up. It's just that Harry can see no evil, hear no evil. Poor Harry.

It's alright, there's room for all kinds of weirdoes in the world, right :>

Re: heh

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

*chimes in*
not to defend my ICness, because, totally prepared to admit lots and lots of other people write much more IC Draco than me, and anyway we've all talked this over ad nauseam, but, yeah. I would hate to have a boyfriend as screwed up as my Draco. Limited POV - paints the characters the other character loves rosy.
Again, greatest respect to spare_change and we are totally never going to agree on this, obviously. ;) but... hm. Thought I'd say something along the lines of feeling happy about reena's thoughts running along with mine. And possibly wanted to talk because I can, whereas I run away from the B/S at great great speed!
And obviously, wished to vote my support for H/D. (and D/Hr. And the Snape love!)

Re: heh

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...you just stick in the D/Hr whenever you can, don't you :> :> heee!

my love for b/s is pure and unsullied by canon, eheheh~:))
this happened last winter too you know, except i didn't talk about it-- what with all the d/m. read a -lot- last february. and now i'm feeling all revolutionary 'cause i'm rediscovering the joys of het. or something. go me, etc :D

Re: heh

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

No, I'm good, I understand it... I had my B/S kick myself. and just now I am on a HORNBLOWER kick. Yes indeed. I am a sly, sekrit reader!
the joys of het, you say?
how 'bout that D/Hr? Eh? Eh?
*proves your point gleefully*

Re: heh

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

ahahaha a hornblower kick??! oh man :D :D
now -that's- out of left field~:)
i'm still squicked by most hp het. i dunno what it is. there is no pairing that really clicks for me except maybe r/hr and even that doesn't inspire me to read smut, which is my basic standby for any pairing. if i like it even a little i'll read smut in it, but with r/hr and every single other het pairing in hp, it squicks the hell out of me. can't help it.

on the other hand, b/s is rather hot. then again, i have visuals :D :D

see, problem is, d/hr isn't really a hot pairing. hermione would prolly be even more prudish and stuck up with draco than with other people. like, ron & harry loosen her up 'cause they're friends, but i'd think that hermione would be rather prim with non-friends, which sort of... is unsexy to me.
also, hot-blooded hermione of any sort kind of disturbs me, y'know :> though i did write it.
i can't imagine d/hr sex. i'm -trying-, i really am. nothing.

seriously. can't. harry & hermione, at least, would have tender love-making (EWWWWW) but... draco & hermione? i'm drawing a blank. all i can say is, draco would so cheat on her, man. if not immediately then after 5 years maximum -.-

Re: heh

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

I see I will have to get on my D/Hr epic to convince you.
Because! Because, *dude.* Okay. Here we go. I mean, *there are sparks there, methinks.* Because Hermione is hot-blooded around Draco. She is! She's all 'SLAP!' and she *misses her classes* because she's so *consumed by fury* at him. Hermione goes sort of Ron!spastic around Draco, and I think that's very interesting because normally she is very controlled.
and Draco is intrigued by her. and has clearly been talking about her to his dad. and is attracted to her at the ball.
and for Hermione! A lot of things are about intellect. And I do think there's a very good case for Draco being academically intelligent (well, he is *driven*, is he not, and then he's all 'REMEDIAL POTIONS?' and '*one* Mudblood beat me, yes...') and so there's a reluctant respect thing possible! and then the huuuge ideological gap!
I love this pairing, I do. I'm going to sort out my thoughts on it and present them properly. Suffice it to say that I love it, for now. Hermione's blood will be hot! You will all see!
(and actually, this furthers my theory of this Malfoy Kid Must Have Something, because, this trio has faced ultimate doom, and been very stoic about it, and then along comes this brat and everyone is all 'must hurt Malfoy... fall to floor twitching and grinding teeth...' I mean, he must be the most annoying person in *all the world*, which is sort of impressive. Or, perhaps. I am crazy.)

Re: heh

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Okay, I guess I can see it if I think about it that way, what with the slapping. Forgot about the slapping (it's late! I'm writing Ginny/Pansy while half-asleep and also doodling on a Spike manip!) hee. Okay, yeah. Though good luck getting me to read a D/Hr epic, even by you, ahahahah. I've always felt vaguely threatened by Draco/Gryffindor pairings other than H/D 'cause... that's supposed to be the unique thing Draco's getting from Harry. The whole mirror thing, y'know?

I also have a thing against seeing Draco as a creature of intellect even though he's not dumb or anything. I think D/Hr shippers tend to try too hard with that, whereas with R/Hr you don't try to make Ron smarter than he is. I like Draco passionate and petty and vengeful and semi-crazed. And while I can see how Draco's narrow-mindedness and evilry make her crazed, I dunno if it's a -personal- thing necessarily, since it -is- so ideological. I guess....

The thing with ideologies is... I don't think it's a romantic concept for me, even though lots of love stories use societal ideologies as aspects in the romantic relationship between two people.In my experience, people's ideologies are some of the things most resistant to change about them. Ideally, I'd want my couple to accept the other's ideology as-is, and I don't think Hermione would do that for Draco. Whereas I see how Harry & Draco could/would make each other kind of question their ideologies at the same time, and meet somewhere outside the boundaries of both.

Hee. I can see how I could like D/Hr, it's just that I'm so exclusive in the roles I give to things, what they mean to me and so on, and D/Hr kinda infringes on H/D turf in my mind, besides the simple "one of the characters is used" deal. Depends what you want for the character, I guess. I read this essay on Harry/Tonks which would almost have been convincing if I -wanted- Harry to get more independent and confident through the love & encouragement of an older woman, y'know? As is, it's not what I want for Harry, so the whole ideal is moot to me.

In a way, I can see how they could be made like Spencer Tracy and Katherina Hepburn or something-- snarky & professional & verbally cutting & energetic in bed, I guess, too. The problem is, I think of Draco as having too many emotional issues, as being obsessive and needy and messed up and I feel like he could use the violent edge that Harry has in just the right quantity, combined with the neediness and potential loyalty and an understanding of each other as equals. The problem is, D/Hr is a romantic pairing, and I can't do my whole idealistic romantic gig if it conflicts with another pairing I already ship :> Actually, it conflicts with R/Hr too, come to think of it. Was forgetting that :>

There is -something- there, though. The whole Hermione-loses-control thing is a definite plus, but I think it's just more constructive with Ron 'cause they complement each other, they work as a team, too. Hermione would be -useful- for Draco as an experience (and vice versa), but I get this strong feeling that she could -definitely- do better, and anyway, what about Ron and Harry? I love them both too much to ditch them. Also, I think D/Hr would prolly 'cause more problems in the trio than H/D, 'cause you Ron & Harry need Hermione as glue, whereas Ron & Hermione could conceivably just get together and/or hang out.

That said, I kind of like it as a prelude for H/D, which like, -no one- does & it really makes no realistic sense, but~:)

Re: heh

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess the thing that doesn't make sense to me is why he has become THE Draco. I mean, it is not the best H/D and it is not her strongest fic, in my humble opinion. And why would Harry be so infatuated with him in the first place?

*sighs* But, you know, obviously this hit a chord with a lot of people, so ... it's all good.

Re: heh

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

You know, I think that says as much if not more about the people reading as it does about UL, 'cause apparently people -want- that Draco, he satisfies something for them. People who want losers as romantic leads number in the very very low numbers, I think.

*sigh* Also, there's a sort of tendency for people to favor the charming ones, the sexy ones-- like, in movies, certainly. Like, people much prefere Ben Affleck in action movies where he has his shirt open and quips and saves the day, even though they liked `Chasing Amy' okay, y'know? UST and the fairy-tale of prince Charming and someone's playing hard to get... for most people, it's the equivalent of a Hugh Grant movie, man :>

(and okay, I love Hugh Grant, but I kind of... am sick of all the movies he does being the same, y'know.)

Re: heh

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think you are right, and it's bizarre for me because nothing turns me off more quickly than a man who is trying to be charming and impress me. Well, not *nothing*, but ... you get what I'm saying.

It just comes off as really slick and phony. I can't stand it.

I do exploit it for nice meals and vacations, though.

And I like the movies where Hugh Grant is an asshole. Like in Bridget Jones. Because here he is charming, but in a REAL WORLD way. I.e., he is a CHARMING ASSHOLE WHO HURTS PEOPLE. Which is what people who are emotionally manipulative tend to do! So you are seduced by him, but you also see the danger in that, because he's just a self-centered twat.

I am all about Colin Firth as Mark Darcy. The guy with the good heart who treats you wonderfully, but with a few social problems that need to be ironed out. I love the fact that he is shy and stiff and uncomfortable and doesn't know what to say and even when he does say the right thing it comes out wrong. I love the idea of falling in love with somebody and being able to see wonderful things in them that other people are too stupid to recognize.

Well, not the "idea." This is the sort of person I tend to fall for. Because he is the Real Deal.

Oh Colin. You are also my Sekrit Internet Boyfriend, yes you are.

Getting back to Draco ... I guess I just don't see him as "boyfriend" material. I mean, he's hurt/comfort all the way, and he's the girl. ;)

Re: heh

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh now that I think about it, that totally turns me off too, majorly. I mean, I'd just sort of snort incredulously if anyone ever tried it on me, though. Sometimes, reading a fic, I can sort of enjoy how fucked up they are, even if the protagonist doesn't know it. Like, not necessarily an asshole (though that's the most common scenario, I'd agree), but I dig it when they're really so transparent and insecure and needy, and the reader could -tell-. Depends how you perceive the character, I guess. I always tend to home in on the vulnerabilities, no matter how hidden, like a blood-hound :>

I love assholes though. In fiction I mean. Usually this is related to the "bad boy" archetype, and my preferred scenario would have the girl or boy protagonist be totally immune to their charms, right. So the guy would totally beat his head against the wall and get more and more frustrated, while becoming more and more his "true" self until he snaps or something. Ahhhh, the glory of when they -snap- :D

UL doesn't really fit this model 'cause Harry hasn't resisted and it's Draco who's resisting, which goes a tad against the grain, actually, come to think of it. Then again, this just goes to show that UL!Draco isn't really made in the mold of "The Charmer", not when it comes to Harry. And no, I dunno why Harry's gone bonkers like that. A sudden madness of infatuated hormones works for me, kind of.

Hehehe, I love thinking of Draco as the girl in a hurt/comfort scenario, 'cause I can -so- see it. In fact, that's prolly his greatest similarity to Spike, in my mind, 'cause Spike also has this need to be hurt by love, to be overwhelmed and dominated & then hopefully licked better. Thinking of it that way, though, isn't very positive for H/D, 'cause Harry needs comfort just as much if not more. I do see a codependency forming, in that they both hurt & comfort each other, y'know.

Fanon!Draco is supposed to be a charming asshole who hurts people often enough, isn't he? Though... you can't go too far with that 'cause he's like, 16-18 and stuff, eheheh. I really shouldn't like that sort of thing, should I?

My personal preference is for misunderstood misfit-type rebels, hopefully brilliant and probably shy. No one can see their brilliance 'cause not only are they difficult to read, they've prolly got a whole lot of Issues and are antisocial and/or way too smart for everybody. Hee. The misunderstood poet taken to the next level~:) Yeah, it really bothers me when I realize that Snape is my type ^^;

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

I can't speak for anyone else, but personally I'm frustrated and hate H/D, not because I dislike the characters (on the contrary, I love Harry, and I enjoy Draco) but because so little of it is anything like my interpretation of the books. Or my kinks. I'd like to see more BDSM, for example, but what's out there is almost all sub!Harry, which I just can't buy. Not with Draco.

But it's the same for all fics, not just those specific characters. Like I'm insanely tired of seeing fanfics in which Ron is gay. Wait, before you jump all over me, let me qualify that. I have no problems with Gay!Ron, ala John's A River in Egypt (which, uh, may or may not be the full title -- I'm simply too lazy to look it up). I'm just insanely tired of seeing stories in which Ron is gay. But so is Harry. Or so is Draco. Why can't there be more stories in which just Ron is gay, not Ron AND someone else? As if they need to justify his sexuality by making someone else queer. That bothers me.

I also hate hate hate HATE all the disparaging comments on original characters.

I don't think it's a character-specific thing. It's a cult of... Hatred. Or maybe a cult of Obliviousness. Or a cult of Stupidity. Pick your word, whatever it may be. ^_- I think it just boils down to the fact that a) people are dumb. b) the books aren't finished.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It's a cult of Hatred!!1..!!11!11!!!1
*combusts*
That amuses me deeply. Thank you, thank you. Heheheheeheh!! So true!! It's a cult of Hateful Oblivious Stupidity!! That's the answer to -everything- (that's wrong with people), ahahah. Yeah. Dude. And not to say I don't spread the vicious cycle by hating the haters, but oh well :D :D :D!!
It's true, what you say about (well, the dumb thing is naturally a given) the books not being finished. Then again, I shudder to think the self-righteous bullshit that'll start flying once they are. Ergh. Then again, I prolly won't be in fandom by then (let's hope). I wonder if people'll have "So Draco Really -Is- a Nasty Bastard" parties, ehehehe >:D

Yeah, one of my longtime pet peeves is that no one writes H/D right. I dunno... is that uncommon among rabid H/D shippers? It prolly is, but then I was always... different :>

See, but that doesn't stop me from loving the pairing and a lot of fic (even though I don't think much of it approaches my ideal). It's funny 'cause in most other fandoms I wouldn't even -think- of having a perfect-pairing-vehicle-fic ideal. Like... I laugh, thinking of The Perfect Heero/Duo Fic Of All Time, ahahah. That's just ridiculous. But in the HP fandom, there's just been so much crap and misrepresentation and horrid, -horrid- characterization... that it's like... the second coming. And Then One Day, There Will Be A Fic To Redeem The H/D-ers Once And For All, ahahahah. *coughs* Good thing I took a break from fandom before my brain combusted, huh :>

Also... it's been a while since I read badfic that had the "everyone's gay" syndrome. Most experienced writers don't do that, I think. It's prolly been awhile since you've really read much H/D, hasn't it :>
Then again, there's not a lot of people -writing- it these days. Well, writing it well, anyway ^^;
And there -is- a lot of sub!Draco out there, trust me. It's a kink. I actually see it more than sub!Harry (which doesn't make sense to me at all, but then... not enough people write NC17 H/D of -any- kind for my tastes, eheheh). It's just that the lack of good fic out there just makes me more determined to write my own, that's all~:)

Re:

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

It's not so much that 'everyone is gay,' it's more that Ron can apparently only be gay in the context of a pairing like H/R or R/D or R/Sn, etc. To clarify. I'd <3 stories in which Ron is just. Gay. Or has a relationship with an OMC. (But no, all OC are self-inserts and Gary/Mary Sues. Bad! Bad! Evil! Get them away! *snorts*)

See, I can't read fic anymore because too much of it makes my head hurt. I noticed you and spare_change talking about Draco/Snape up above, right? Well, I like Draco. I like Snape. You'd think I like them together. I don't. The pairing makes my head hurt because of just the way the characters mesh in canon (spoiled brat vs. rage-o-holic, which, hey, dude, is Lucius/Narcissa in my head and that brings out a whole different set of issues) and, even worse, the way the characters are portrayed and mesh in fanon.

It's even worse with H/D. It's not that I'm expecting perfection (though I'd be so pleased if I got it), but at least a little sense of logic and logical characterization/progression. I suppose that's my biggest pet peeve, even more than the way Draco is suddenly a redeemed, broody nice guy (i.e. Angel instead of Spike) or something more ridiculous. It's just that so many stories lack a sense of logic or even the logic of consequences. Actions have no reaction. They just are.

Damnit, I have to go to work. I have more to say, it just might be a little later. ^_-

Re:

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Okay, at work and able to write now. ^_-

I do think that the lack of logic, even in reading the books, has really turned me off into the fandom. It's not that I've become more picky in my reading. If anything, it's the opposite, because there are times that I'd rather just read a dumb, insanely OOC plebefic on ff.net than 'intellislash' (not the authors who identify as intellislashers, but rather the entire genre of 'intelligent slash') simply because I can pick my dumb. You can write the most beautiful, poetic, stylistically gorgeous fanfic in the world and I'm still going to hate it if you still manage to leave out consistent characterization or consequences for each and every action. And this sort of genre applied to smut just makes me laugh and laugh and laugh because it ends up being the ridiculous (though lyrical) 'the flower of her sex opened before him and he felt awed by the fragrant beauty of her petals as he parted them'. That's not sexy. That's funny.

But I'm digressing completely from the point. I think people are just going to read how their view of the world is. I don't see Harry as hero, for example, either classic or modern or even the image of hero, so every story that shows him that way is going to twitch on my OOC-scale. Even worse are the stories with Harry as the innocent, open child that everyone (most specifically Draco and Harry) can read. So they rely on what they read into the story, first, and then the clichés already available in fandom. It always amazes me when people gripe about Draco's characterization in UL, for example, when Harry's so much worse. But that's the way the characters are in fanon despite all logic and reason. They've become defined by a few qualities or a role and people are just too lazy to move past that.

I'm not certain I have a point in there, but I hope you enjoyed the ramble at least. ^_-

Re:

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Also, point me to this rare beast of Dom!Harry/Sub!Draco you mention. I feel the urge to go a hunting.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

You know I do tend to agree with you, though I twitch, thinking of the many ways I must've failed all this time. But eh. Writing fanfic is hard. It seems like what I know in my -head- about the characters and what I actually -write- in any particular story don't always correlate. They do, the more I write and practice a particular pairing or scenario, but in general, there seems to be a gap there. It's like, every particular story has its own little universe of demands on me, places I can't go 'cause there isn't room or it'd make it into a novel or they're too messed up or it's a comedy or -something-, y'know. Like... I've had to learn the craft (not really a fine art) of placing things squarely in context & enjoying characterizations on their own merits. It's like... does it work within the story? Halfway okay? Eh, good enough :>

That said, I do agree about Harry, definitely-- I mean, you could argue it both ways, but I think he's not heroic -yet- even though he's on the arc but that's me being author-intent-conscious and more archetypal than presently canonical. I don't think he's -anything- yet. He's kind of developing in bursts. I do think he's got the -potential- both for heroism and... not, but the thing that drives him doesn't let him be apathetic, 'cause he's all... impulsive and protective and loyal and judgemental-- all of these things make heroes but they don't -guarrantee- them or anything. Even so, I don't know if anyone's written a believable heroic Harry... just 'cause it's as hard to write good guys as believable bad guys, I guess. All about believable character development and there aren't many heroes to base things on for most writers.

But yeah. I always agree when anyone says fanfic (any fanfic) sucks (for whatever reason). 'Cause it does. For a lot of reasons. That said, given that 95% of everything is crap, there's still that 5% if you look for it~:)

There isn't a lot of post-OoTP Harry out there prolly partly because people don't know what to do with a more complex, more emotionally volatile Harry. He was simple before, and people simplified it even more, 'cause the sad truth is, even though JKR isn't a stellar writer, most fanfic writers are much, much worse. How sad is that? ahahah. Although some of them are prolly better~:)

As far as sub!Draco... Most of the old H/D NC17/R-rated fanfic has always had switch!H/D, which is my favorite. Like... Dahlia, Marysia, Aja, Penguin, Aspen (though she writes bottom!Draco, actually), even Olympia, I think.

More recently...
There's Sara (addictedkitten), thessamunga, weatherby (heheh!!), still Aja, still Aspen/cursescar, even julad.

The people who write top!Draco tend to write him in a way I can't stomach in general, so I don't read them. That is to say, he's usually also suave & witty & gorgeous, not to mention they like to place it post-Hogwarts, which turns me off. Still haven't read Resonant's or Fearless Diva's or FayJay's stuff, prolly 'cause of the Draco. I sniff 'em out, man~:))

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[spare-change.livejournal.com]

I don't see Harry as hero, for example, either classic or modern or even the image of hero, so every story that shows him that way is going to twitch on my OOC-scale.

*blinks*

Okay, but, um, JKR does see Harry as hero, so I don't quite see how that is OOC.

I think people are always going to disagree about characterization. I don't think *any* of the characterizations in UL make much sense, for example, but that certainly hasn't stopped a lot of folks from enjoying it, nor should it. And I'm sure plenty of folks don't like the way I see Lucius ... I think he's hysterically funny. Maybe that doesn't come out in my prose, but I do.

We all love the characters, so we are all going to get annoyed when we think someone is not doing them "justice," but you know, diversity is a good thing, ultimately. Right? Because the sad fact of the matter is that none of us own the books and none of us own the characters more than anyone else.

And there is SO MUCH dom!Harry/sub!Draco out there. I don't really know where to start. I mean, a lot of it is just junkfood fic (and I don't say that disparagingly, because I live on junkfood, in both the literal and metaphorical sense of the term) and so I don't have a list of recs, but there is tons out there.

Even things like so many stories lack a sense of logic or even the logic of consequences ... that's so subjective. I mean, what works for you does not work for me, and vice-versa. You may write something that you think makes perfect sense and is supported by canon 100%, but that doesn't mean I am going to read it that way.

And that's cool. Let a thousand flowers bloom. People aren't lazy and stupid just 'cos they don't see things the way you do ...

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[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Okay, but, um, JKR does see Harry as hero, so I don't quite see how that is OOC.

Depends on how you're defining "hero," really. I've got a post-OOTP short here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/idiotparade/35042.html) that shows my feelings on the matter. If someone else wants to see Harry as, oh, Batman or perhaps even a character in the Oresteia, go right ahead. What I meant was that it's going to strike me as OOC in that Harry is the protagonist, but not a "hero." Maybe a classic one and certainly on a hero's journey, but I can't slant the books enough to call him a hero myself.

Also, out of curiosity, what interview does she say that in? I don't remember it.

We all love the characters, so we are all going to get annoyed when we think someone is not doing them "justice," but you know, diversity is a good thing, ultimately. Right? Because the sad fact of the matter is that none of us own the books and none of us own the characters more than anyone else.

But logic and homage should have its place. If you don't like the way Character X acts in the books, it still doesn't mean that it makes any sense to have Character X suddenly dye hir hair black, wear black Muggle clothing to Hogwarts, carry around a CD player with with CDs from Linkin Park and practicing Wicca. Especially when the story is set in 1975. There's a certain point where 'whatever floats your boat' turns into 'did you even READ the books?'

The same applies not only to characterization but to plots. If Draco and Harry sneak out to the Astronomy Tower for a nice snogging session and get caught, Professor XYZ is going to give them a detention. Not say 'oh, how cute! But it's past curfew, be on your way!'

You can't discount perfectly, reasonable common sense. And too many authors (and by extension their fics) do. That will get me as a reader every time. Logical fallacies, actions without logical reactions/consequences and just things that don't make sense or mesh well (if at all) with the world JKR sets up. All of it shows a lack of understanding that, even in a fantasy world, writing needs to have verisimilitude.

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[spare-change.livejournal.com]

Yes, but you're defining things really rigidly here. I mean, I don't see how you can argue that it is simple "common sense" that Harry is *not* the hero of the books. If you want to argue that, it is fine with me and I'm sure I'll find your argument an interesting and enlightening one. But I am certainly not going to let you get away with calling every person who writes Harry as a hero as OOC. Come on. That's ridiculous. That is just so ... not spreading the fandom love in any way. As you said, it depends on how you define hero ... for me, all of the parallels JKR draws to fairy tales, myths, hero's journey, etc. is hero enough for me. Certainly JKR has said nothing to support either of our positions, so for you to take the moral high ground here and say that anyone who writes Harry as a hero is "slanting the books" is just silly.

I just don't understand why you think that only your view of the books is the correct one, and why you are so invested in ripping down so many other people, and misrepresenting them so badly. I do not know anyone in fandom, other than thirteen year old girls, who writes Character X suddenly dye hir hair black, wear black Muggle clothing to Hogwarts, carry around a CD player with with CDs from Linkin Park and practicing Wicca. Especially when the story is set in 1975. Who do you know in fandom who writes like that except for some kids on ff.net? And what is the point in raining on their parade? If they're determined to read the books and write them that way, there really isn't much point in arguing with them. I mean, I don't see much moral courage in berating a junior high school student.

But what you seem to be doing is suggesting that everyone who writes characters in a way you don't agree with is doing the equivalent of this, and that's just not fair. Or accurate.

I mean, look. I like some of the stuff that you've written, but the Blackcest piece made no sense to me whatsoever. But I didn't call you an idiot with no common sense for writing it. I said, "Okay, this doesn't work for me, but this is what she wanted to say about the Blacks. Cool."

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[verstehen.livejournal.com]

Which is why I emphasized the fact that this is personal. I understand what you're saying. But those sorts of things don't work for me as a reader.

And yes, I am saying that anyone who writes the characters that don't fall into my interpretation are stories that I generally am going to dislike or quit halfway through. That's even what reenka is saying about the 'ideal' not matching up to the 'reality' of the fanfics. We all do this. It's natural because we read for tastes or things that we enjoy. I don't think you have any more moral high ground than I do in saying that I should read everything and enjoy everything because there was something fun in the writing process. Well, the problem is that no matter how much the writer might have enjoyed it, it still reads like crap to me and makes my head hurt. So I don't read it, or if I do, I don't like it. I generally hit the back button and find something better to do with my time a fourth of the way in. I'm a lazy person when it comes to feedback, I generally only give it when I think a story has potential and usually not even then. So, this has nothing to do with raining on parades, unless you're putting words into my mouth. It has everything to do with personal tastes. You like carrots; I like broccoli.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...Just had to say that equating fanon!Draco with Angel just gave me this huge idiotic smile on my face. eheheheeh!!

'Course, it's just a coincidence that I -like- 'em bad~:))
And well, Snape/Draco is one of my least favorite pairings even though I like both characters a lot, for a bunch of reasons. It just doesn't -work- as far as romance goes, really. Then again, I scratch my head at a goodly number of the pairings people come up with. I don't think workability is really the deciding factor for most people, sadly.

Also.... yeah. I've never actually seen "just gay" Ron. Mostly 'cause he's "just straight" in most people's heads. Including mine, eheheh. But "just gay" Ron would actually be rather hilarious, come to think of it.....

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I used to not really dig Ron... and then I put my Ron-goggles on~:)) Still don't really dig on the Weasleys, but Ron's like... the underdog. My Ron, eleveninches' Ron, Silvia's Ron. He's like the goofball wacko with a really embarrassing crush on the girl who's too smart for him and the friend who's too famous for him and the brothers who're too successful for him. The thing I love about him is like, the opposite of the way most people in the H/D fandom characterize him-- I find his good naturedness more endearing and/or interesting than his jealousy and capacity for possible corruption. It's like, he's just a genuinely Good Guy, even though he's kind of a dork. Okay, really a big dork. He's Xander. Heeeeeeeee! Except Xander got more girls and also hopefully Ron won't go the Way Of The Fat, even though I can definitely see fat!Ron, eheheh.

I'm more okay with Harry/non-Draco pairings than vice versa, but even so, I don't really think Harry -fits- with a lot of people. I think I get too hung up on "does this pairing -work- on some level" to see more than a couple alternate pairings with any character. But then, I'm just an obsessive romantic :>
And I can definitely see Draco/Pansy, at least :>

I definitely have hope for Draco, and especially like the whole father-in-Azkaban development for his sake, but am not betting on any canon redemption going on, y'know. Though hopefully she'll at least develop him a bit more. That's always possible, one hopes ^^;

[luciusmalfoy.livejournal.com]

you know, i've never had issues with people who shipped different things-- i think i missed a whole chunk of the hp fandom by not getting into ship wars. i think the closest i've ever been in one is this--

me: ivy, h/d sucks.
ivy: fuck off, lib.

--so i don't really get the whole... nfffgh of it, yanno? but you have me as a friend and i'm a dedicated ron/draco shipper. LOL. i wonder if i should worry about getting defriended

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think partly it's that... you were never that invested, maybe? And everyone's idea of an OTP is different-- some people get much more hung up than others, depending on how jealous & obsessive they are, eheheh.

Me... I'm pretty tolerant of people, but not always ideas. I would never -fight- with anyone over a ship, or any fandom thing for that matter. The whole concept is ridiculous. Nothing could possibly happen in fandom that's positive or negative that'd affect my relationship with a -person-, y'know?

That's just petty and stupid.

So, I mean, my wild emotional reactions to ideas have nothing to do with whoever -has- them, really. I think that confuses people, but it's true. I hate the game and not the playas, man. And also, I like a good debate, otherwise things get really rather dull, don't they? :>

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

I think it's just... not that I really have issues with any pairing-- it's more how there's a -stance- that liking a certain pairing seems to imply. If it's true in other fandoms, I'm not aware of it. I have no clue if Buffy/Spike shippers are different in "type" and overall outlook than say, Spike/Xander shippers. Blissful ignorance, really. They seem to all be friends with each other. I don't get a sense of segregation between factions-- though obviously I'm very -very- outside it all and have barely read any lj's at all, so I'm just going by sites linking to each other.

The truth is, every fandom is like HP... and Buffy... and LOTR, they're all the same in this way. A new fandom always looks shiny and happy with no conflicts. I felt that way when I originally got into HP. I'm reading the journal now of someone who is all warm and fuzzy with her new, friendly lotrips fandom, talking about how HP was never so nice, which cracks me up, since that's the OLD fandom I was running away from when I got into HP. All these fandoms are the same when it comes to ship wars and the like. Buffy was my first fandom, way back, and it was the same there too. I never got heavily into fic in that fandom, and that was really the biggest reason why. I dealt with enough flame wars at the old Bronze- I didn't need fic wars too. And when Spike/Buffy originally became canon? *shudder* The hatred some people have for that pairing is so far beyond reason, I can't even describe it.

I guess what I'm trying to say is... no fandom is sane, reasonable and open-minded. The trick is to remain that yourself, and bring that with you into the fandom. I've been able to enjoy the HP fandom by just LIKING things, and not trying to figure out why that might upset anyone or put me in any specific category. I friend who I like... I read what I like and try to ignore the rest. It works. Mostly. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, don't get me wrong-- I'm not eyeing the Buffy fandom with any sort of shiny eyes of wonder or anything. I'm sort of enjoying my ignorance and happy it'll stay that way 'cause I'm not going to corrupt it by -being- in the fandom~:)

I bring my angst upon myself since I read so far out of my comfort-zone and such. And people's opinions only concern me when it seems they're intelligent. And even then, the subject of Draco and H/D bashing is sensitive for me, just 'cause I've defended Draco like a zillion times so now it's a button, just seeing someone offhandedly say, "oh, Draco doesn't have a heart". Overall, it's just the burn-out speaking, man~:)