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Thing is...

HP, fandom-wise, is starting to frustrate me more than anything else, especially 'cause I'm the type of person to always go looking outside my little comfort-zone out of some sort of... I dunno... perversity. So I go looking at the lj's of people who ship Sirius/Snape or Lucius/Snape or whatever, and on the one hand, it expands my horizons, and on the other hand it frustrates me. I still get the urge to defend Draco whenever someone seems to not understand him in the slightest, but I'm -tired- of that now, 'cause it won't -matter- to anyone other than the people already receptive to the ideas. The others don't actually -read- mostly H/D-centric journals, I figure. There's only so much time in the day, all that.

It's just... I dunno why I'm so sensitive to people's different little mini-verses within the larger Potterverse fanon, but I am. I don't -care- about the non-B/S shippers. Things that go against my OTP in some other fandom might discomfit me, but they don't actually -bother- me with any serious intensity. Whereas I've gotten -more- rather than less sensitive to things in HP with time, it seems.


I think it's just... not that I really have issues with any pairing-- it's more how there's a -stance- that liking a certain pairing seems to imply. If it's true in other fandoms, I'm not aware of it. I have no clue if Buffy/Spike shippers are different in "type" and overall outlook than say, Spike/Xander shippers. Blissful ignorance, really. They seem to all be friends with each other. I don't get a sense of segregation between factions-- though obviously I'm very -very- outside it all and have barely read any lj's at all, so I'm just going by sites linking to each other.

I feel like it's not just a question of different strokes for different folks in HP, not entirely. It's just hard to find a real point of commonality at -all-, even though supposedly we all like the same thing-- but there are a number of people that are just here for the hotness of Alan Rickman, it seems. What do I have in common with them? And why do I even care if I don't? I don't know. I guess I -don't- care. And well... I like it that way.

It's even more ironic because I don't actually feel a vast similarity of outlook with the great majority of the H/D faction, either, because it tends to be light on analysis and is kind of... one step above Draco/Ginny, as far as general masses. But it -really- frustrates me that the adult-shippers hold themselves -so- far apart, though I'm sure the segregation is mutual. And it also bothers me that liking Sirius and Remus and Snape almost always necessitates having little if any affection for Harry and Ron and Draco-- and vice versa. I mean, it's not like there are people who only like Giles and Wesley and um, I dunno... I guess the vampires are old... but not any of the Scoobies, right? That's just silly, right?

I wrote all this just to stop myself from writing yet another pro-Draco rant. I'm just -tired- of it now. To hell with it, man. No one cares, and I'd just be rehashing things I'd said a million times before and... okay I'm wasting time anyway, but.

It has nothing to do with me, really. Who cares if people are into the adult characters 'cause of some misbegotten idea that they're hot (and "mature")? No skin off my back, right? It's just... I've spent -so- much time with this and am -so- invested, it's like... I really do feel like this is -my- place, my community, and I feel frustrated and alienated by all the factions and segregation. I suppose it bothers me 'cause I feel like I don't belong.

See... the people I have the most in common with, as far as the majority of them, are usually -not- into H/D. I mean, sure, most of the friends I'd made in fandom -were- into it at some point, but as far as current make-up of the fandom, the people I identify with intellectually (though not emotionally) are usually into rare pairings and adult-slash and emphatically -not- H/D. I think this is a phase thing, and also to do with the fact that HP has such a huge diversity of age-groups in terms of its audience. Buffy probably has a much more stable 18-30 age-group, come to think of it, so maybe that accounts for there being more flow.

I guess it also bothers me, feeling so split between my emotions & my intellect. Emotionally, I'm solidly pro-Draco, pro-Harry, pro-H/D and every other character except Ron could just go to hell for all I care (well, not really, but). I'm very focused. Emotionally, I can't stand it seeing any of the three of them mocked or badly used. I'm very protective. Intellectually, I'm interested in the whole HP universe, in the details of characterization for every character, in the non-romantic interactions, in Sirius, Snape, Dumbledore-- you name it. I actually -enjoy- seeing mockery of Harry and Draco, intellectually, 'cause I'm pretty tired of the bland worship of them elsewhere.

It bothers me having this conflict within me generated by fandom politics, I suppose. I'm actually intellectually interested in anti-Draco people's thoughts on Draco-- I find them refreshing and much more lucid sometimes, 'cause the majority of Draco-lovers are just -waaaaay- off base and into fanon happyland. Which just bores me, even if it was fun at first.

I think at heart, the problem is-- even though I'm a lit-geek, I don't have that much in common with a lot of lit-geeks my age, simply 'cause what I look for in stories is so... different. Which depresses me. Most college-age English major types aren't looking for angsty, angry fairy-tales. Most people who -are-, don't actually think about it and go after it as more than a candy rush. It doesn't help that a part of me honestly sees H/D as a canon-viable pairing moreso than any other pairing with either character-- not that it -will- happen, but rather that it's the most interesting thing that -could- happen, even though it won't. That same part of me thinks that H/D is about as natural in the narrative sense as... I dunno... Batman and Catwoman. It just -works-. It's -there-. Why -wouldn't- people see it, even -if- they don't dig it personally?

Anyway, this is all rooted in people having such -wildly-, insanely different views of the Potterverse and its characters. I dunno if every fandom has this wide of a range or what, but the one in HP kind of makes my head hurt. I mean, I guess it still really does confuse me why people insist with such vehemence that canon Draco couldn't and -shouldn't- have depth or a "heart". Why do people insist on bad characterization, even if it's how canon is? Why? How does it make sense that -any- character (person) is that shallow?

HP fandom has always made me want to enact change, be some sort of revolutionary. Write the One True H/D Fic or the One True Draco Fic that will once and for all prove the worthiness of their subject. Heh. In a way, it's almost funny, 'cause hopefully, that's what -canon- should be for, actually. *sigh*

It'd almost be nice to be in a fandom where the character really -is- sexy ('cause it's an actor), rather than one where I cringe every time someone implies they're there for so-and-so (Snape, Draco, Harry's) sex appeal. I've gotten to the point where even the -implication- of someone digging on them that way is starting to make me sick, kind of. Like, even using [livejournal.com profile] duckpuppy's cute little eyeliner!Harry in an icon. Dude, I really loved that pic, but I'm actually feeling a little protective of Harry, seeing that icon. This just has to stop. I dunno how. Prolly this break was for the best, even if unintentional.

Date: 2004-02-05 04:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Hehehe so apparently at least one person wouldn't mind if I wrote yet another Draco characterization canon/fanon rantathon :> :>

'Cause I don't think I actually -made- any points about him in this post, other than to say that people who -want- him to be two-dimensional are kind of disturbing to me. I would agree with you that most people's representations of Draco in fanfic aren't up to snuff. That said, I think this references a major difference with how I tend to perceive characters, maybe? I don't usually go by whatever the common interpretations are, when I think of the theory behind things. I sort of... take practice and smother it heavily in the theory of -potentials-. Because potentially, there is a lot that -could- be done (that isn't). Just because it -isn't-, doesn't mean it shouldn't/couldn't be, though. Y'know? I'm all about the theory over practice, I guess.

Practice may show what the people within a given group are capable of but it doesn't necessarily define the -subject- itself, y'know? While the readership may be oriented in a certain way regarding Draco... and that does mean something... Draco's own characteristics, canon and potential, are much wider in scope than that. Some people have a pretty good characterization, I think, but they don't write longfics, or they don't really write get-together fics or they don't actually write expositional what-if fics that tie canon Draco to a changed version. The people who give good Draco tend to stick as closely to canon as possible... which, while it's a good start, is just that. A start. But eh.

Most people's Draco is kind of a joke, really, but I'm addicted so I overlook it a lot of times. I think I ship my own idea of H/D rather than H/D the way most people write 'em, 'cause the way most people write 'em (or most other pairings) is cliche & boring. So here one separates bad writing from subject, again. I think most people's writing is pretty... well... bad, characterization-wise anyway, but it's especially obvious in a difficult pairing like H/D. You'd really have to go through a lot of hoops to make it believable, meant-to-be as I find it. It's hard, so people make it easy for themselves and use cookie-cutter plots and foreign archetypes for Draco that are convenient for their romance.

I kind of hate the soulmate thing, btw, in -any- pairing. I do think they should be together, but... people use it as a cop-out, so it annoys me.

Anyway, I was defending canon Draco, not fanon Draco. I have no particular love for fanon Draco, and my formative fics didn't really have that Draco anyway. I do love some people's fanon, but that's generally 'cause they make him come alive, they make him -real-, which is hard to resist, even though I see where you get the whole OC thing. Then again, who really writes canon!Harry all that well, anyway? People's characterizations are like a house of cards in general.

Anyway, a number of people do write canonish and/or unsexy loser Draco in some guise or other (Aspen, Miss Breed, Silvia, Trin, Penelope, Lasair, and I think Maya in her way) but it's less common for the simple reason that it's -harder-. No one wants the unsexy difficult characterization, man. They're here to have fun. And like... what I -really- want is to see him change, 'cause as-is Draco really doesn't have a lot of places to go, narrative-wise. He -has- to grow up somehow.

I prefer Harry myself, actually, and I didn't say he wasn't sexy, it's just that.... I'm protective, as I said :> He's my woobie~:)

Date: 2004-02-05 05:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tinderblast.livejournal.com
Hahahaha, I thought that you *were* saying that Harry isn't sexy and that people were making him out to be something he's not ... crossed wires.

And I'm interested in seeing Draco change, I think you bring up a really good point there. Something has to happen with him, given how quiet he was in book five and how he looked like a little boy in comparison to Harry. I'll have to check some of those writers out, I don't think I knoe Trin, or have read lasair?

-brodie

Date: 2004-02-05 05:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Well... Lasair/[livejournal.com profile] lasultrix just writes `Veela Magic', & [livejournal.com profile] ztrin wrote a bunch of short fics with kind of insane loser Draco, heheh. My favorite Draco is prolly some mutant crossbreed of [livejournal.com profile] weatherby's, [livejournal.com profile] silviakundera's, [livejournal.com profile] cursescar's & [livejournal.com profile] mistful's, ehehehe. With some bits by Riddle & Penelope & [livejournal.com profile] ethrosdemon. Heh. There's actually a lot more variety out there than most people are aware of, it's just that... the lesser-known writers are called that for a reason, I guess :>

heh

Date: 2004-02-05 05:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tinderblast.livejournal.com
I like the idea of this Frankensteined Draco stumbling around fandom - a characteristic from here, an anti-cliche from there ...

Thanks for the links.

-brodie

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 01:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spare-change.livejournal.com
Maya's Draco is not canonical. He is handsome, charming, witty, and everyone loves him. Aja -- who adores Maya's Draco -- describes him as the Ideal Boyfriend.

Reena and I have had more than one discussion about this because this ... does not work for me.

Read weatherby's stuff (she writes as Miss Breed). She writes the most canonical Draco in fandom ... I think most people would agree with that. she's at bloom.velveteen.net, I think. Read red. :D :D :D Read the porno-reading fic she wrote recently. :D :D :D

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 01:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
I'm prolly the only person who reads UL who loves UL!Draco 'cause he's an insecure basketcase with severe intimacy issues. Heh.

Mostly I blame the ask-a-character-a-question thing, 'cause like... he -told- me things, and nothing will ever be the same. He is like... severely messed up. It's just that Harry can see no evil, hear no evil. Poor Harry.

It's alright, there's room for all kinds of weirdoes in the world, right :>

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 02:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarahtales.livejournal.com
*chimes in*
not to defend my ICness, because, totally prepared to admit lots and lots of other people write much more IC Draco than me, and anyway we've all talked this over ad nauseam, but, yeah. I would hate to have a boyfriend as screwed up as my Draco. Limited POV - paints the characters the other character loves rosy.
Again, greatest respect to [livejournal.com profile] spare_change and we are totally never going to agree on this, obviously. ;) but... hm. Thought I'd say something along the lines of feeling happy about reena's thoughts running along with mine. And possibly wanted to talk because I can, whereas I run away from the B/S at great great speed!
And obviously, wished to vote my support for H/D. (and D/Hr. And the Snape love!)

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 02:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
...you just stick in the D/Hr whenever you can, don't you :> :> heee!

my love for b/s is pure and unsullied by canon, eheheh~:))
this happened last winter too you know, except i didn't talk about it-- what with all the d/m. read a -lot- last february. and now i'm feeling all revolutionary 'cause i'm rediscovering the joys of het. or something. go me, etc :D

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 03:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarahtales.livejournal.com
No, I'm good, I understand it... I had my B/S kick myself. and just now I am on a HORNBLOWER kick. Yes indeed. I am a sly, sekrit reader!
the joys of het, you say?
how 'bout that D/Hr? Eh? Eh?
*proves your point gleefully*

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 03:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
ahahaha a hornblower kick??! oh man :D :D
now -that's- out of left field~:)
i'm still squicked by most hp het. i dunno what it is. there is no pairing that really clicks for me except maybe r/hr and even that doesn't inspire me to read smut, which is my basic standby for any pairing. if i like it even a little i'll read smut in it, but with r/hr and every single other het pairing in hp, it squicks the hell out of me. can't help it.

on the other hand, b/s is rather hot. then again, i have visuals :D :D

see, problem is, d/hr isn't really a hot pairing. hermione would prolly be even more prudish and stuck up with draco than with other people. like, ron & harry loosen her up 'cause they're friends, but i'd think that hermione would be rather prim with non-friends, which sort of... is unsexy to me.
also, hot-blooded hermione of any sort kind of disturbs me, y'know :> though i did write it.
i can't imagine d/hr sex. i'm -trying-, i really am. nothing.

seriously. can't. harry & hermione, at least, would have tender love-making (EWWWWW) but... draco & hermione? i'm drawing a blank. all i can say is, draco would so cheat on her, man. if not immediately then after 5 years maximum -.-

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 03:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sarahtales.livejournal.com
I see I will have to get on my D/Hr epic to convince you.
Because! Because, *dude.* Okay. Here we go. I mean, *there are sparks there, methinks.* Because Hermione is hot-blooded around Draco. She is! She's all 'SLAP!' and she *misses her classes* because she's so *consumed by fury* at him. Hermione goes sort of Ron!spastic around Draco, and I think that's very interesting because normally she is very controlled.
and Draco is intrigued by her. and has clearly been talking about her to his dad. and is attracted to her at the ball.
and for Hermione! A lot of things are about intellect. And I do think there's a very good case for Draco being academically intelligent (well, he is *driven*, is he not, and then he's all 'REMEDIAL POTIONS?' and '*one* Mudblood beat me, yes...') and so there's a reluctant respect thing possible! and then the huuuge ideological gap!
I love this pairing, I do. I'm going to sort out my thoughts on it and present them properly. Suffice it to say that I love it, for now. Hermione's blood will be hot! You will all see!
(and actually, this furthers my theory of this Malfoy Kid Must Have Something, because, this trio has faced ultimate doom, and been very stoic about it, and then along comes this brat and everyone is all 'must hurt Malfoy... fall to floor twitching and grinding teeth...' I mean, he must be the most annoying person in *all the world*, which is sort of impressive. Or, perhaps. I am crazy.)

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 03:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Okay, I guess I can see it if I think about it that way, what with the slapping. Forgot about the slapping (it's late! I'm writing Ginny/Pansy while half-asleep and also doodling on a Spike manip!) hee. Okay, yeah. Though good luck getting me to read a D/Hr epic, even by you, ahahahah. I've always felt vaguely threatened by Draco/Gryffindor pairings other than H/D 'cause... that's supposed to be the unique thing Draco's getting from Harry. The whole mirror thing, y'know?

I also have a thing against seeing Draco as a creature of intellect even though he's not dumb or anything. I think D/Hr shippers tend to try too hard with that, whereas with R/Hr you don't try to make Ron smarter than he is. I like Draco passionate and petty and vengeful and semi-crazed. And while I can see how Draco's narrow-mindedness and evilry make her crazed, I dunno if it's a -personal- thing necessarily, since it -is- so ideological. I guess....

The thing with ideologies is... I don't think it's a romantic concept for me, even though lots of love stories use societal ideologies as aspects in the romantic relationship between two people.In my experience, people's ideologies are some of the things most resistant to change about them. Ideally, I'd want my couple to accept the other's ideology as-is, and I don't think Hermione would do that for Draco. Whereas I see how Harry & Draco could/would make each other kind of question their ideologies at the same time, and meet somewhere outside the boundaries of both.

Hee. I can see how I could like D/Hr, it's just that I'm so exclusive in the roles I give to things, what they mean to me and so on, and D/Hr kinda infringes on H/D turf in my mind, besides the simple "one of the characters is used" deal. Depends what you want for the character, I guess. I read this essay on Harry/Tonks which would almost have been convincing if I -wanted- Harry to get more independent and confident through the love & encouragement of an older woman, y'know? As is, it's not what I want for Harry, so the whole ideal is moot to me.

In a way, I can see how they could be made like Spencer Tracy and Katherina Hepburn or something-- snarky & professional & verbally cutting & energetic in bed, I guess, too. The problem is, I think of Draco as having too many emotional issues, as being obsessive and needy and messed up and I feel like he could use the violent edge that Harry has in just the right quantity, combined with the neediness and potential loyalty and an understanding of each other as equals. The problem is, D/Hr is a romantic pairing, and I can't do my whole idealistic romantic gig if it conflicts with another pairing I already ship :> Actually, it conflicts with R/Hr too, come to think of it. Was forgetting that :>

There is -something- there, though. The whole Hermione-loses-control thing is a definite plus, but I think it's just more constructive with Ron 'cause they complement each other, they work as a team, too. Hermione would be -useful- for Draco as an experience (and vice versa), but I get this strong feeling that she could -definitely- do better, and anyway, what about Ron and Harry? I love them both too much to ditch them. Also, I think D/Hr would prolly 'cause more problems in the trio than H/D, 'cause you Ron & Harry need Hermione as glue, whereas Ron & Hermione could conceivably just get together and/or hang out.

That said, I kind of like it as a prelude for H/D, which like, -no one- does & it really makes no realistic sense, but~:)

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 10:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spare-change.livejournal.com
Well, I guess the thing that doesn't make sense to me is why he has become THE Draco. I mean, it is not the best H/D and it is not her strongest fic, in my humble opinion. And why would Harry be so infatuated with him in the first place?

*sighs* But, you know, obviously this hit a chord with a lot of people, so ... it's all good.

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 12:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
You know, I think that says as much if not more about the people reading as it does about UL, 'cause apparently people -want- that Draco, he satisfies something for them. People who want losers as romantic leads number in the very very low numbers, I think.

*sigh* Also, there's a sort of tendency for people to favor the charming ones, the sexy ones-- like, in movies, certainly. Like, people much prefere Ben Affleck in action movies where he has his shirt open and quips and saves the day, even though they liked `Chasing Amy' okay, y'know? UST and the fairy-tale of prince Charming and someone's playing hard to get... for most people, it's the equivalent of a Hugh Grant movie, man :>

(and okay, I love Hugh Grant, but I kind of... am sick of all the movies he does being the same, y'know.)

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 01:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spare-change.livejournal.com
Yes, I think you are right, and it's bizarre for me because nothing turns me off more quickly than a man who is trying to be charming and impress me. Well, not *nothing*, but ... you get what I'm saying.

It just comes off as really slick and phony. I can't stand it.

I do exploit it for nice meals and vacations, though.

And I like the movies where Hugh Grant is an asshole. Like in Bridget Jones. Because here he is charming, but in a REAL WORLD way. I.e., he is a CHARMING ASSHOLE WHO HURTS PEOPLE. Which is what people who are emotionally manipulative tend to do! So you are seduced by him, but you also see the danger in that, because he's just a self-centered twat.

I am all about Colin Firth as Mark Darcy. The guy with the good heart who treats you wonderfully, but with a few social problems that need to be ironed out. I love the fact that he is shy and stiff and uncomfortable and doesn't know what to say and even when he does say the right thing it comes out wrong. I love the idea of falling in love with somebody and being able to see wonderful things in them that other people are too stupid to recognize.

Well, not the "idea." This is the sort of person I tend to fall for. Because he is the Real Deal.

Oh Colin. You are also my Sekrit Internet Boyfriend, yes you are.

Getting back to Draco ... I guess I just don't see him as "boyfriend" material. I mean, he's hurt/comfort all the way, and he's the girl. ;)

Re: heh

Date: 2004-02-06 02:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yourpoison.livejournal.com
Heheh now that I think about it, that totally turns me off too, majorly. I mean, I'd just sort of snort incredulously if anyone ever tried it on me, though. Sometimes, reading a fic, I can sort of enjoy how fucked up they are, even if the protagonist doesn't know it. Like, not necessarily an asshole (though that's the most common scenario, I'd agree), but I dig it when they're really so transparent and insecure and needy, and the reader could -tell-. Depends how you perceive the character, I guess. I always tend to home in on the vulnerabilities, no matter how hidden, like a blood-hound :>

I love assholes though. In fiction I mean. Usually this is related to the "bad boy" archetype, and my preferred scenario would have the girl or boy protagonist be totally immune to their charms, right. So the guy would totally beat his head against the wall and get more and more frustrated, while becoming more and more his "true" self until he snaps or something. Ahhhh, the glory of when they -snap- :D

UL doesn't really fit this model 'cause Harry hasn't resisted and it's Draco who's resisting, which goes a tad against the grain, actually, come to think of it. Then again, this just goes to show that UL!Draco isn't really made in the mold of "The Charmer", not when it comes to Harry. And no, I dunno why Harry's gone bonkers like that. A sudden madness of infatuated hormones works for me, kind of.

Hehehe, I love thinking of Draco as the girl in a hurt/comfort scenario, 'cause I can -so- see it. In fact, that's prolly his greatest similarity to Spike, in my mind, 'cause Spike also has this need to be hurt by love, to be overwhelmed and dominated & then hopefully licked better. Thinking of it that way, though, isn't very positive for H/D, 'cause Harry needs comfort just as much if not more. I do see a codependency forming, in that they both hurt & comfort each other, y'know.

Fanon!Draco is supposed to be a charming asshole who hurts people often enough, isn't he? Though... you can't go too far with that 'cause he's like, 16-18 and stuff, eheheh. I really shouldn't like that sort of thing, should I?

My personal preference is for misunderstood misfit-type rebels, hopefully brilliant and probably shy. No one can see their brilliance 'cause not only are they difficult to read, they've prolly got a whole lot of Issues and are antisocial and/or way too smart for everybody. Hee. The misunderstood poet taken to the next level~:) Yeah, it really bothers me when I realize that Snape is my type ^^;

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