reenka

Thing is...

HP, fandom-wise, is starting to frustrate me more than anything else, especially 'cause I'm the type of person to always go looking outside my little comfort-zone out of some sort of... I dunno... perversity. So I go looking at the lj's of people who ship Sirius/Snape or Lucius/Snape or whatever, and on the one hand, it expands my horizons, and on the other hand it frustrates me. I still get the urge to defend Draco whenever someone seems to not understand him in the slightest, but I'm -tired- of that now, 'cause it won't -matter- to anyone other than the people already receptive to the ideas. The others don't actually -read- mostly H/D-centric journals, I figure. There's only so much time in the day, all that.

It's just... I dunno why I'm so sensitive to people's different little mini-verses within the larger Potterverse fanon, but I am. I don't -care- about the non-B/S shippers. Things that go against my OTP in some other fandom might discomfit me, but they don't actually -bother- me with any serious intensity. Whereas I've gotten -more- rather than less sensitive to things in HP with time, it seems.

I think it's just... not that I really have issues with any pairing-- it's more how there's a -stance- that liking a certain pairing seems to imply. If it's true in other fandoms, I'm not aware of it. I have no clue if Buffy/Spike shippers are different in "type" and overall outlook than say, Spike/Xander shippers. Blissful ignorance, really. They seem to all be friends with each other. I don't get a sense of segregation between factions-- though obviously I'm very -very- outside it all and have barely read any lj's at all, so I'm just going by sites linking to each other.

I feel like it's not just a question of different strokes for different folks in HP, not entirely. It's just hard to find a real point of commonality at -all-, even though supposedly we all like the same thing-- but there are a number of people that are just here for the hotness of Alan Rickman, it seems. What do I have in common with them? And why do I even care if I don't? I don't know. I guess I -don't- care. And well... I like it that way.

It's even more ironic because I don't actually feel a vast similarity of outlook with the great majority of the H/D faction, either, because it tends to be light on analysis and is kind of... one step above Draco/Ginny, as far as general masses. But it -really- frustrates me that the adult-shippers hold themselves -so- far apart, though I'm sure the segregation is mutual. And it also bothers me that liking Sirius and Remus and Snape almost always necessitates having little if any affection for Harry and Ron and Draco-- and vice versa. I mean, it's not like there are people who only like Giles and Wesley and um, I dunno... I guess the vampires are old... but not any of the Scoobies, right? That's just silly, right?

I wrote all this just to stop myself from writing yet another pro-Draco rant. I'm just -tired- of it now. To hell with it, man. No one cares, and I'd just be rehashing things I'd said a million times before and... okay I'm wasting time anyway, but.

It has nothing to do with me, really. Who cares if people are into the adult characters 'cause of some misbegotten idea that they're hot (and "mature")? No skin off my back, right? It's just... I've spent -so- much time with this and am -so- invested, it's like... I really do feel like this is -my- place, my community, and I feel frustrated and alienated by all the factions and segregation. I suppose it bothers me 'cause I feel like I don't belong.

See... the people I have the most in common with, as far as the majority of them, are usually -not- into H/D. I mean, sure, most of the friends I'd made in fandom -were- into it at some point, but as far as current make-up of the fandom, the people I identify with intellectually (though not emotionally) are usually into rare pairings and adult-slash and emphatically -not- H/D. I think this is a phase thing, and also to do with the fact that HP has such a huge diversity of age-groups in terms of its audience. Buffy probably has a much more stable 18-30 age-group, come to think of it, so maybe that accounts for there being more flow.

I guess it also bothers me, feeling so split between my emotions & my intellect. Emotionally, I'm solidly pro-Draco, pro-Harry, pro-H/D and every other character except Ron could just go to hell for all I care (well, not really, but). I'm very focused. Emotionally, I can't stand it seeing any of the three of them mocked or badly used. I'm very protective. Intellectually, I'm interested in the whole HP universe, in the details of characterization for every character, in the non-romantic interactions, in Sirius, Snape, Dumbledore-- you name it. I actually -enjoy- seeing mockery of Harry and Draco, intellectually, 'cause I'm pretty tired of the bland worship of them elsewhere.

It bothers me having this conflict within me generated by fandom politics, I suppose. I'm actually intellectually interested in anti-Draco people's thoughts on Draco-- I find them refreshing and much more lucid sometimes, 'cause the majority of Draco-lovers are just -waaaaay- off base and into fanon happyland. Which just bores me, even if it was fun at first.

I think at heart, the problem is-- even though I'm a lit-geek, I don't have that much in common with a lot of lit-geeks my age, simply 'cause what I look for in stories is so... different. Which depresses me. Most college-age English major types aren't looking for angsty, angry fairy-tales. Most people who -are-, don't actually think about it and go after it as more than a candy rush. It doesn't help that a part of me honestly sees H/D as a canon-viable pairing moreso than any other pairing with either character-- not that it -will- happen, but rather that it's the most interesting thing that -could- happen, even though it won't. That same part of me thinks that H/D is about as natural in the narrative sense as... I dunno... Batman and Catwoman. It just -works-. It's -there-. Why -wouldn't- people see it, even -if- they don't dig it personally?

Anyway, this is all rooted in people having such -wildly-, insanely different views of the Potterverse and its characters. I dunno if every fandom has this wide of a range or what, but the one in HP kind of makes my head hurt. I mean, I guess it still really does confuse me why people insist with such vehemence that canon Draco couldn't and -shouldn't- have depth or a "heart". Why do people insist on bad characterization, even if it's how canon is? Why? How does it make sense that -any- character (person) is that shallow?

HP fandom has always made me want to enact change, be some sort of revolutionary. Write the One True H/D Fic or the One True Draco Fic that will once and for all prove the worthiness of their subject. Heh. In a way, it's almost funny, 'cause hopefully, that's what -canon- should be for, actually. *sigh*

It'd almost be nice to be in a fandom where the character really -is- sexy ('cause it's an actor), rather than one where I cringe every time someone implies they're there for so-and-so (Snape, Draco, Harry's) sex appeal. I've gotten to the point where even the -implication- of someone digging on them that way is starting to make me sick, kind of. Like, even using

duckpuppy's cute little eyeliner!Harry in an icon. Dude, I really loved that pic, but I'm actually feeling a little protective of Harry, seeing that icon. This just has to stop. I dunno how. Prolly this break was for the best, even if unintentional.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

sistermagpie.livejournal.com

Once again, I seem to just be a mere shadow of you--word to this. I find myself so wishing I could just pretend my corner of HP was the real thing, not because I can't stand opposing opinions but because the CANON is so damn different from one corner to the next. The discussion about Snape/Draco was so interesting to me especially because of spare's comment about H/Ders hating Snape and H/Sers hating Draco and I just don't get that. I ship H/D madly and I love Snape! If I shipped H/S I think I would love Draco. The two characters just don't seem opposed in canon at all.

It's like...I remember there was one X-files person who really hated Mulder and she shipped Scully/Krycek. Not, I think, because she liked the ship but because she got off on Mulder being betrayed. She loved the idea of him finding out, even though this made Scully very different than what she really was...only she didn't see it that way. I sort of feel that way with a lot of HP ships. Like, I don't ship H/D so that Ron can feel rejected. Or Pansy can get abused by a suddenly not-her-friend-at-all Draco. It's like, why is jealousy part of your ship in that way? Draco might love the idea of ousting Ron but that's not a good thing of his.

Also, I think I love spare's description of Draco as a moral failing--though I won't say more because I'm afraid I'm not getting what the real meaning of that is.;-) I just so don't like Fanon Draco as much in so many ways, in lots of incarntions. He's just so somehow raw and real to me in canon despite being a piece of cardboard that I don't want him polished into something with no feelings that just quips all the time--though of course there are some stories feature that type thing that I like anyway because there's something underneath that, for me.

I am definitely just as confused as you on the issue of why people would want Draco to remain souless. It kind of creeps me out, I think. Like when I first came into the fandom I used to say that what bothered me sometimes about his characterization was I felt like I was being encouraged to be implicit in dehumanizing and abusing this person and then pat myself on the back as superior because of it. I mean, why would anyone get satisfaction out of telling themselves they're better than Draco in canon when almost anybody not in prison is better than he is? It's like rather than challenging people to be good they just set the bar really low and claim that not liking him is moral in itself. Like not being the bad guy is the same as being the good guy, which it's not.

But I totally understand what you mean about having that split between emotion and intellect because I am usually in fandom because I loooove some character or another, so I'm probably not going to be able to just shift my attention to another area so easily. And I'm definitely not going to be attracted to a character out of hotness. I might think a character's hot but to really care he's going to have to have something else.

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

I wonder if the whole wanting Draco to remain soulless thing is related to people wanting Spike-the-unsouled-vampire to remain soulless -literally-, ahahah. I mean, lots of people like the bad, evil, simpler(?) version of Spike. Like, he's simple and that's -good-. I mean, some people want Spike soulless 'cause his redemption would mean more that way, but I think that's the minority. I really get the feeling like there's a number of people who like... I guess they like making these distinctions, y'know? Like, This Is Who This Person Is. They like the labels, maybe?

Yeah, that's another thing that pisses me off, the way people cling to the whole House-affiliation label, too, even going so far as to slap it on themselves. I think it's related to people liking "the old thing", maybe? No change, just what works. It's like, it doesn't matter so much who the person is as long as they're consistent-- so if they decide they like or don't like that person accordingly, that judgement is going to stay stable, y'know? I can see how people wouldn't like the idea of a universe in flux, I guess. Doesn't mean that doesn't bother me.

So... my guess is, it's not -about- Draco-- they couldn't care less about -Draco-. What matters is his role in the scheme of things, which has to remain constant. Maybe it's like the butterfly effect. If he changes, what else has to change... y'know? Like, I haven't actually thought about this in any depth before, 'cause I don't think in social terms, but if Draco -does- change significantly, other people/social structures -would- be impacted, and not necessarily in the obvious ways like him being suddenly outcast in Slytherin or something, and Ron blah-blah-blah, y'know?

Plus, people like picking on people. Have you noticed that almost every fic has a scapegoat? I don't get that either, the need for a scapegoat, but it's almost -always- there. Even deserves its own post. Like... whoever's the rival or previous love interest is a good bet, generally. They're suddenly stupid and worthless and that was -never- going to work out. So the protagonists are thus uplifted by contrast, hokey as that is. Scapegoating is a common human practice in all sorts of situations, but that doesn't mean it doesn't annoy me like mad.

A lot of people get off on jealousy or putting down the competition or making characters suffer in some cheap way. All I can think of is that it's some kind of power thing, like they're working through their own issues by using these characters. This is tied with people seeing characters as "real", I think, and reacting to them as if it was -them- in a real life situation (the Mary Suing probably comes from a more general source reader response). If you take that as a given, then I suppose people have some insecurity that Draco (or Snape or whoever) is striking at. So either they identify with him or they need to reject him utterly as a human being 'cause he threatens them somehow.

In my experience, people lash out when they're insecure about something, right? So there's that. Moral failing, indeed. And now you have this element of moral high ground that some people take, too. Kind of a dead giveaway that there are Issues there :>

I think in your case (and mine, actually), we're so distant/different from Draco that we don't really feel threatened by him in any way, shape or form, so empathy is easy. We don't identify with him so there's no clingy delusions and we don't -need- him to be anything in particular. I'm not as clear-headed with Harry or Luna, say, 'cause I identify with them more~:)

Never said I was actually -better-, eheheh.

From:

shusu.livejournal.com

Since I don't attach myself to any one fandom, I have a lot of fandom surfing under my belt... I have to say that it's a function of the size of the fandom. HP is just so hopelessly massive that there's this need to carve out places... to have self/other issues come up.

The other thing is the sheer variety of the characters and plots Rowling provides. There are not a lot of binding thematic elements between characters. For instance in, say, Digimon fandom I could compare two younger siblings and there were subtextual parallels there. The diversity makes it hard for people to get into HP as a whole, loving the entire corpus from top to bottom. So they break it up into what they really like, and if there's a ship at the dock, all the better.

I have to say, this is one of the reasons why I believe there is such a difference between yaoi and slash. Yaoi writers simply don't invest themselves in a lot of ship wars. (They war about everything else.) OTP in slash form is an imported, alien concept to us. By and large it's a footnote, something to stick on your website with a cute bunny next to it. However it functions in the same way -- so you can hang out with people who are like you. The larger the fandom gets, the more ship wars become an issue. You want to impress the people who ship the same as you... so trends become accentuated.

It's not just the variety but the numbers of characters. X-Files was such a tough fandom because there were so few characters outside the protagonists. A lot of emotion to be putting on two or three people. HP has a crowd. Especially after the last book. And it's not a tight ensemble cast, it's a menagerie of oddments. It's very hard to love it as a whole.

The other thing is, anime canon is not as subtextually fluid as it is with books, or long movies / complex shows with off-screen scenes. If it's not shown on screen, there are usually references to fill in everything from blood type to favorite food. Anime and most visual media have exactly one point of reference: what the director chooses to show you. Books have the canon written in stone, but the subtext could come from any direction, from the narrator to the minor characters to the thematic weather elements. HP canon is built on such a limited POV that there are gaps *everywhere*. And fandom in any form exists to fill in the gaps.

I'm afraid HP fandom is going to stay fragmented as long as JKR tries to tackle multiple character types and themes and subplots. And honestly, the HP universe is about bullies and power struggles and separating eleven-year-olds into trait-specific Houses. What kind of average fan can you expect from that? But you know, if this were an anime or yaoi fandom, you'd eventually get down to the attitude of "we're all freaks. so what's your ship? can't stand that guy? yeah, I like him. are you broke from buying dvd's yet?" Don't ever let anyone tell you that fandom can ever be a uniform, cohesive entity.

My advice? Don't sweat it. Love the canon the way you want to. If someone wants to go nuts on the character you love, let 'em; they don't call us fanatics for nothing. HP is so massive that the social pressures are tenfold compared to a lot of other fandoms. Ignore it. You'll be happier. But if you really can't stand the way fandom is, go read another book or watch another movie and join their fandom. Chances are you'll find it's better and worse in the same amounts.

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Hmm... that really does go a long way towards explaining it to me, that bit about the characters' themes not interacting, it all being a mish-mash rather than an ensemble. That totally makes sense! Dude! *lightbulb goes on*~:)

Though personally, I -am- interested in the whole shebang, I guess I do only identify with the H/D-ers, mainly. For a long time I couldn't care less about the adults... it was really OoTP that made me interested. So I guess I'm no different, with my narrow specialization and all that. It's just that I never -disdained- the rest... I was always at least somewhat curious. But then, I'm -always- somewhat curious.

Also, I was way OTP-ish while I was into GW & anime too, but I wasn't in the -fandom-, I just read fic & watched the eps (usually not for the same show), so I guess I don't know. There -are- plenty of ship-centric sites out there, and I guess I surfed the 1x2 sites more than anything else so maybe I don't have a very good picture. Then again, the authors who produced a lot of quality 1x2 didn't seem to write non-1x2, so there's that. And then in the other fandoms, the shipping wasn't even a question, 'cause... like in Fruits Basket... who're you gonna pair Kyou with if not either Hohru or Yuki, right? Er. yeah. Not a lot of experience~:)

I totally dig your point about the "average fan" of something like HP (vs something like Buffy or X-Files or whatever). Yeah, makes sense. A book that espouses certain attitudes is gonna get certain types of people as fans, even though there -is- a huge variety in such a huge fandom. Prolly explains why I tend to bond best with people who aren't too crazy about those aspects of it that you mentioned~:) Or probably the books in general, not in a sort of "this is the best thing EVAR" sort of way.

Don't wanna be in fandom in general, I think, it's not a question of which one. Just got sucked in, y'know~:)

From:

shusu.livejournal.com

Humm, rereading my comment, my anime snob came out. She's probably still out. Ignore her. ^_^;;

Gundam Wing is a prime example of how size matters. I wasn't even in that fandom to begin with, but because we were fan-lovin' anime at the same time as GW peaked, we got backwash and/or refugees from that fandom. I think that might have been a lot of people's first experiences with ship wars. It's a saner lot now, but in those days, geez. The canon wasn't just being subsumed, I heard (grain of salt) about instances where fans attacked sites for detailing canon because there was no evidence for their ship.

The same sort of feeling/action is easier to ignore in smaller packs, isn't it? Then it'd just be some trolls, not a clique. Or the difference between hanging out and ganging up.

1x2 is like Troy, a city built on top of seven cities and defended by manic Greeks... and it was that way because Bandai planned it that way. Traditional Gundam fans were biting their thumbs at this bishonen-packed line-up, because Bandai and Sunrise were selling out to the yaoi-loving, cash-waving fan-girls. And thousands of fans fell for their formula, myself included. 1x2 fans *are* really exclusive as a group... and that's because it's hard to shift gears from a simple formula that's been road-tested in the shoujo depths of Japan; not to mention the experience with five-man-team formulas that goes back so far they have a word for it.

This is not to say that JKR is setting us all up. Quite the opposite, fans need to work harder to find the canon back-up because our primary POV is so seldom at all sexual. The thing is, 1x2 is based on a fairly universal formula, a comfort level if you will. When fans do their own picking, they're going to like different formulas and find different comfort levels.

But I'm veering off again... the disdain, the put-downs, all that bad stuff is, IMO, partly from those formulas not meshing, making it anywhere from problematic to squicky, partly from the differing canon interpretations, and partly from people being mean. And sometimes it's just a practical thing... let's say H/D prevents my ship from happening. Suddenly H or D can't be the good guy or even a real character, they have to be the foil or the shadow or the chump. Otherwise the story as a whole doesn't work. That means, quite often, a trip to the land of Rowling to fashion it into an image that will allow the story to survive. Make a space that's comfortable.

I guess in the circles I run in, it's easier to take a many-worlds hypothesis, that this guy could sleep with that guy, or whomever, depending on circumstances, or just consign it to PWP or deliberate OOC. But even then, something like a het pairing of someone I've written as gay forces me to step out of my comfort zone. And if there's canon evidence in a cogent essay, that's even further out. And since Rowling is fabulously detailed about everything yet definite about nothing, HP is going to grow canon-think like mushrooms on a wet log.

Whether or not one gets defensive about having to step out of one's comfort zone is up to the individual fan. Often depending on how far out of that comfort zone it is.

So, y'know, keep writing about what you see in canon. Keep plugging away at it. Tell us what you see (because yer cool ;) ) You may not change everyone's minds, but it keeps the books alive and keeps discussion and dialogue alive. Lit analysis is weird enough without a fandom monkey on your back. If they're going to step on your toes for it, you might want to ask them what territory they're fighting for. Until a certain Ms Rowling sets it in stone, we might as well all be AU.

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Ah, so you're saying that 1x2 is more like shoujo than it is like the yaoi pairings fans come up with, 'cause it was actually semi-intended and put their by the creators? I guess that makes sense, and prolly also explains why/how 1x2 was my gateway drug into m/m pairings in general, ahahah. Well, really I started with this one Kyou/Yuki fic, but... well, there was only that one, really, so without GW it prolly wouldn't have made a big impact.

I've always liked the more obvious ships, it seems, mostly 'cause there's usually the most evidence or interaction in canon between those characters, so the fic is better, using more common history, so there's a sense of continuity between different authors, maybe? Just conjecturing. Like, if it's a more obscure pairing, then you can't really have the same evenness of story-- like... you know how a lot of H/D or 1x2 fics are similar, right? I mean, I bet Remus/Draco fics are a lot more dissimilar. I'm guessing. Characterization-wise, dynamic-wise, etc.

Usually, my problem with getting into non-canon yaoi was that they usually did it to shows I'd never watch 'cause they're boy action series type things, and I'd always be watching the shoujo-type stuff. I mean, even my non-shoujo is slightly shoujo (like Vampire Princess Miyu, for instance). So... like, WK... it was never gonna happen. But with GW, I didn't even -need- to watch the show (though I'd seen Endless Waltz), 'cause Heero & Duo were just -such- obvious characters. So basically, I like obvious, 'cause it means I don't need canon as much, eheheheh.

To me, Harry & Draco were equally obvious, and I didn't do more than watch the first movie before I started reading fic. Which is why I sort of expect people to "get it" even if they don't like it. It's a formula that works-- just as Heero and Duo are-- y'know, complementary halves, opposites attracting. Romance for dummies :>

I guess I just have a single vision of Harry & Draco & Sirius & Ron in my head. Even if I write them differently from fic to fic, I still -think- of them in a consistent way. They live in my head, y'know, and they have sex a lot~:))

I'm open to other people's conceptions of any character, though, and with Draco and H/D as a pairing I'm just particularly sensitive 'cause I often respect the intelligence of the people who say they're stupid and/or cliche, y'know? Then again, I suppose I can admit I -like- my stupid cliches~:)