~~ to rec or not to rec, that is the question.

[reenka]

I know how people get annoyed seeing the same uber-popular fics recced all the time, and oh yeah, I definitely empathize. Except I definitely also get really really irritated seeing the same fics anti-recced, too. It's always the same fanfics, whether they're being bashed or fangirled. It perpetuates the cycle. It spreads the disease, man.

Not to mention! No fic is -that- bad or -that- good. I fail to see why so many intelligent people feel the need to harp on something just because it's popular, whereas lots and lots of other fics are just as bad and most often -worse-. The only difference being that they're not pimped as loudly.

This isn't a phenomenon only seen in fanfic reccing, of course. The most hyped-up movies are also the most trashed ones by the critics. Speaking as someone who sometimes enjoys such movies shamelessly and sometimes hates them and sometimes can't be bothered-- it's kind of embarrassing to call yourself a critic and always descend to this petty bashing of the popular kids. I realize no one -cares- if you don't like some obscure art-house movie. But there's such a thing as a critic's integrity, too.

When people ask me what fics I can't stand, I usually name ones the other person hasn't heard of. Most people haven't read `Perfect Imperfection' or `All Torn Down' or `Ruses'-- but so what? I often think the whole idea of anti-reccing is fishy because it implies the person has read the fic in question beforehand-- otherwise they're not really going to -understand- what the big deal is unless you summarize the fic for them and have them sort of read it vicariously. Overall, it's more useful to generalize the flaws you see and try to promote good writing techniques rather than beat on these few popular stories, whether they're deservedly so or not. Though I admit partly it's just that I -like- IP and feel a tad embarrassed, eheheh.
~~

A few days ago, I was thinking slightly about isiscolo's post about the necessary exclusivity of recs & the issue of needing to trust the reccer.


I wondered (once again) what exactly my bias is. I never really think about how I'm biased-- I rec mostly as a personal reference to myself, so it's implicit which fics are just "good porn" or "squee" or "deep" or "emotionally impactful". I don't know if that's useful to put next to my recs, though maybe I should. I definitely rec based on emotional reaction (laughter, sadness, pain, wonder, thoughtfulness, stylistic beauty, with style often dominating). It seems to me that any story can be written well or badly, but often enough this doesn't correlate to whether people would want to read it or not. People have their issues they're looking to see explored, types of characterizations they favor, things they notice while reading.

I think a number of people just don't -notice- the things I notice. I mean, I don't really know if/how many people do trust my recs, though I assume a number of people find my opinion valid, otherwise they wouldn't read it. Even so, I think the things I perceive are seen as -interesting- rather than er... evident.

As a writer, I think I tend to write to a certain audience-- all writers do, implicitly. There are certain givens in everyone's writing, unstated but always there. "This is what human beings act like." One might think it's universal, and it might be in a way, but not every writer has the same level and type of understanding of that universal. I tend to intuitively notice the sort of philosophy implied in people's writing-- it's just what comes naturally to me. So some of the thing that really attracts me or annoys me about a story is likely to be that subtle philosophical edge. Everything implies a philosophy of living, even Wal-Mart ads.

In a way, I think it's more interesting to delineate bias than to argue over specific instances in particular fics. Because once I start thinking about particular fics and whether they're good or bad and get into an argument about it, my temper starts to rise. It's very easy to start thinking that people have no taste and that they're just deluded. Most people just don't think about -why- a certain story appeals to them, but breaking it down too much could be counter-productive too, since a good story transcends categories and is just emotionally suited to its "ideal reader".

The thing is, there really isn't any reccer I trust completely. I've never really met someone with the same taste as me, even in the very limited world of H/D fics. I think eleveninches and I have the closest tastes of anyone else whose recs I've read in the fandom, but that's mostly 'cause she's very selective and generally I can trust her to look at the whole story rather than any particular emotional kink it has. That's usually a good recipe for something I'll enjoy at least on the "oh, good stuff" level if not the squeeing madness level.

That's kind of funny, isn't it? The same people who cry indignantly at IP also rec some of the most bland and boring dreck ever written in the pairing. I mean, just because it doesn't have purple prose or overt symbolism doesn't mean it's subtle and cutting and perfectly balanced by any means. But now I'm just kind of complaining, so I'll stop.
~~

You know how I said I hatehatehate pimping? Well, that's other people's pimping, not my own, ehehehe.

I was feeling all irritated and cranky, and then I stumbled upon one of my favorite HP fanartists-- Syrena Doné of jareth.com & Severus Snape's Slytherin Society. I love her Draco and her Snape. They're so... evil. *cries with joy* There's also this odds n' ends gallery with 'puter-hating!Snape, omg. Hee! I have this... thing against evil!Draco in fanfic but I -love- and adore seeing that awful sneer and the maniacally vicious glint in his eye. It just makes me warm and fuzzy. Her inking style is just so old-fashioned and intricate and the characterization so vivid and canon. Also, bathtub!Snape has my heart.

Comments

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

I thought 'All Torn Down' was v. popular!
Outrage! Now I am not subversive!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee, well, it's the most popular of all the fics I've mentioned, but! It's not popular enough to get constantly bashed, as well, like UL & the Draco Trilogy & IP are. Though strangely, Ivy's fics are very popular & yet they don't get bashed, only Ivy does.

*SMITES*

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

My fic gets bashed?
*lip tremble*
*soulful Sarah McLachlan lyrics* I would be the last to know, I would be the last to let it show...
okay so the last part's not true...
I didn't know that! Mind you, I can see why in some ways.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

People have "issues" with your Draco, man. I mean, I adore him, of course, canon or not-canon, but for some reason, out of aaaaaall the goddamn OOC Draco's out there, people are like BUT UL!DRACO IS OOC! HORROR! SHAME!!
I think it makes some of them feel better about themselves, you know, because they're so subversive and -they- know all about in-character Draco 'cause of course they write him themselves. Of course.

And well, also the tasks premise, but that doesn't get mentioned so much. Mostly the Draco. But like. Finding some things problematic in a fic is one thing-- all stories have problematic aspects. Except some of Silvia's, which I tend to worship completely. *laughs* But um-- that doesn't make it reasonable to bash them unless they -suck-. Unless the very fact that it's popular offends them. And well-- badfic offends me. Popularity.... not so much :>

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

I have so many more problems with your Harry than your Draco, though both are out-of-character!

But I love UL anyway. It's funny and it's fun and it's interesting. And OOC or not, Draco wildly amuses me.

[prillalar]

This isn't a phenomenon only seen in fanfic reccing, of course. The most hyped-up movies are also the most trashed ones by the critics.

When this happens with HP fandom, it all seems so self-referential because it happens all the time with the *books*.

When I see a rec, it means: "this is a fic that someone enjoyed". That's all. Certainly, popularity breeds more popularity, but there's really nothing to be done about that.

And I think I had another point, but I've forgotten it and I'm late for coffee.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I do sometimes kind of lose it and think I have "taste" when it comes to literature and that there -are- "objective" means of judging a story that I can use to approach it. I mean, most of the time it's all pretty masturbatory, but still. *laughs* I cling to the idea that there's some sort of middle ground if you really try hard to analyze your own response as a reader and break it down into "emotional kink", "decent writing", "suspenseful plot" and so on, but! That gets more into a "review" rather than a -rec-, I suppose :>

Also, I wouldn't really -rec- the actual HP books, though if I wrote a review it'd be semi-positive, semi-critical and mostly "Oh well, I'm really biased by now" ahahah.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

Well, the reason it's the same fics over and over again is that there is this sort of unwritten law in HP fandom that to be a Real Member Of Fandom you have to like fics X, Y and Z, and if you don't, obviously there is something very wrong with you and you just did not read it right. And this irritates people, all the squeeing, so they go off the deep end the oher way and get all "NO I DID NOT LIKE IT OKAY GO AWAY NOW." And then someone else says "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT IT IS BRILLIANT GRRR," and they all feel threatened and start chewing on each other.

I've realised over time this is a fandom full of People Trying to Make Themselves Look Cool. Not everyone, admittedly, but there are plenty, and this evokes all sorts of strange behaviour, a lot of which they would never get away with in real life because it is stupid, but the distance inherent in the internet prevents anyone from actually walking over and kicking them in the shins.

[illiterate.livejournal.com]

I AGREE WITH YOU SO WHOLEHEARTEDLY YOU HAVE NO IDEA. OMG. -FRIENDS-

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

*nods sagely* It's the shin-kicking thing, isn't it? ;)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heee, oh yeah, the chewing part is certainly true, all right :D :D
that's a funny thing, 'cause i've never particularly noticed anyone shoving fics down my throat. most people don't really -talk- about fics in the first place. i mean, they talk about bnf's, but not -fics-. all the "talking" i see is usually when someone puts out a new chapter (happens every few months) and then you'll have people squeeing on that person's lj and sometimes saying "OMG NEW CHAPTER" on their own. which isn't exactly a fandom-wide love-fest for that fic or anything.

maybe it's also that i've found all the fics i dig on my own, consciously looking for recs and following links and such. i've never ONCE had a real person rec me a fic. that kind of seems weird to me now, but yeah. people -have- squeed about `transfigurations' when it first came out, but i -still- haven't read it. the squeeing only lasted for a few weeks, and then died away. now people sometimes mention it, but not really enough to get -annoying-, just when they're talking about fics. which isn't often.

i do know what you're saying, mind you. it's just that the people act all "too sophisticated" and "too discriminating" to like the fics in question, and they're being as loud and boisterous as the squeeing masses. and also, it doesn't help that i admire CC & ivy & aja & maya & even rhysenn, as writers. not that i worship their fic, but as a person who thinks of herself as quite discriminating, i can still say that it's not worth getting -that- upset over since none of these fics are really CRAP.

at the heart of it, maybe it's just that -i- like them and don't like to be lumped in with the squeeing plebes? i dunno :>

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I like some and not others, but honestly I've never quite grasped the BNF concept anyway. People are people, they're usually nice to you if you're nice to them, and no matter how famous they are in whatever circle there's no point spending time with them if you don't find each other interesting.

[illiterate.livejournal.com]

You pimp art and it makes my day so hardcore. Like, I adore Snape and there is such good Snape going on here. I'm pretty sure bathtub!Snape is going to make an appearance in my dreams someday soon. <3

Also, like, I totally agree with you on the reccing thing. I only rec' when I am utterly stunned by something, and I don't rec' all that often. I'm also pretty sure that no one pays attention to my recs, but eh. -.-

I actually have a huge soft spot when it comes to reccing authors I've never heard of because no one has very really recced me, which sounds like a total plea but it really isn't. Lol. Anyway, reccing can be both a good thing and a bad thing and um laalalalala I should be doing work.

So, how are you Reena? I feel like it's been a while since we spoke last.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heee. That Snape & Draco -is- hardcore, isn't it :>
*smug*
I love 'em when they're evil. I also found this really bad site with the Mary Sues kissing this scared-looking Snape and I was like, "EEEK GAH AWAY AWAY". So yeah. Evil = Good. Except, you know, when it doesn't ^^;

I rec all the time (have you noticed?? ahahaha...um) just because I like to keep track of things and I'm apparently a compulsive list-maker. See this (http://www.core.binghamton.edu/~lorien/story/_fic.html)? Heh. That's not even half of it, man. *sigh* It's not the reccing that bothers me, it's when people use it as a popularity contest and don't -think- about what they're saying and it all just becomes pointless 'cause no one knows what motivated them to like the story. I don't even care what most people rec or don't, but seeing IP bashed for the zillionth time, I was like, okay, enough is enough. Sort of the way I'm tired of people -reccing- the same things, too. Sheep, I tell you. SHEEP :>

Hi! heee :D :D
Oh man, I'm so frazzled and kind of scattered and have a zillion projects I never get to. Something always distracts me. I could go on and on and never say anything, man. And like, we've never -chatted- right, though I forget when/how I've commented with someone 'cause there's just this huge -mass- of them. Words and words and I never get anything actually -done- with them, it seems. Sort of like devil's snare, eheheheh. Words are, I mean. And almost Thankgiving so I'll prolly drop by NYC soon ~:))

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think the many anti-recs stem from the frustration of feeling like you're the kid in The Emperor's New Clothes or something. Especially when, like, you think everybody is celebrating a fic for the very thing you don't think it has, you want to say NO NO NO!! Sure there may be a lot of worse fics out there, but they're not bothering anybody if people aren't FALLING for them, you know? I think that's what's more troublesome for people, when it seems like a fic is fooling people.

There have been a couple of fics I remember reading that drove me crazy--one LOTR fic I recall--that was bad in a very unique way so I just had to tell people about it, but usually if a fic is bad you almost just want to not mention it so that it dies a quick death.

This probably gets even more tricky when it comes to characters being OOC. Like, to refer to the Draco discussion above, I think Draco is a nasty, vicious creep much of the time, but would also agree that if he's popular he absolutely must have a more charismatic personality with others. Producing a character who can do both is very difficult, and not everyone will buy it. Then also, I would disagree that Harry just wants him to leave him alone. That's one of the things I think is so great about Draco, the way he intrudes on Harry's consciousness without Harry wanting to admit it. It makes you wonder if Draco would fool himself the same way in his pov. Anyway, that's a different discussion, but the very fact that that discussion exists is why, I think, widely accepted versions of characters get recced and anti-recced.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I can understand why people do it, I just think it's as childish as going on and on and fangirling the BNF and begging for chapters, y'know? It's like, here you are, pretending to be above all that, and yet you're just stirring the same pot they are. I don't see why no one's annoyed at the whole double-standard. Lots of fics fool people, but they're also fooling themselves if they think they're proclaiming some surprising truth rather than being bitter. heh. And I'm bitter about their bitterness :>

Lots of people are charming assholes. Not a lot of people can write them, but lo, Spike :> Not that Spike = Draco by any means, but it's not a stretch, really, to be nasty & charming & nastily charming.
Mmmm, I love secretly-Draco-obsessed!Harry. There's just some sort of poetic justice in it :D
And anti-reccing is one thing, and I support it. Anti-reccing the same-old same-old and always sounding like you think you're oh-so-controversial is just bloody lame, man.

[tocomfortyou.livejournal.com]

Hmm, there are some good stories that get recced a lot. DMTAB...R? was fabulous and I wouldn't have found out about it if it weren't for other rec pages. I got a whole bunch of stories off eleveninches's recs, and her tastes suit me for the most part. I mean, look at all the people who recced Transfigurations, and I thought that was an excellent story.

I think anti-fics are rather ridiculous and a waste of time. And not to sound all hippie-ish and all, but does the fandom need more bad karma? Do you really want to direct people to a story and say "DON'T READ THIS" instead of saying "Hey man, this story made my ears wriggle in positive glee!"? This fandom gets so very meta it's rather tiring. Just say, "Hey, these stories really kick ass." and get on with it. Don't rec it because its popular or elitist, rec it because it made you laugh or smile or it moved you or whatever. Most of the recs I've listed aren't perfect, but I'm not asking them to be. I don't look for perfection in fanfiction, it's just a nice bonus.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I'm always looking for perfection. Everywhere, man, even in the lint on my teddybear's nose. Or something like that.
Perfection and porn (and pickles?). That's what life's... all... about? Um. *coughs*
It's fun to bitch about stories just 'cause badfic gets annoying. Also, I need to let off steam -somewhere- and I don't want to torture kittens, so badfic it is.
Not that I do it all that much.


It's just, seeing people ONLY badmouth CC's trilogy & IP gets on my nerves 'cause like, WE GET IT ALREADY. Or something.
Also, I like the those fics, but ahahahah DON'T TELL ;))

[tocomfortyou.livejournal.com]

Ew, pickles. *defriends!*
Perhaps the problem lies in the fact I have no low standards. If it makes me laugh, if it brings me out of a coma, if it sits on my screen without causing small demons of mayhem to fly out of my cd drive, I'll rec it. My first fandom was LOTR, and the horrors I encountered in those chilling depths of terror instilled in me a sense of, "Well, they've spelled the names correctly and even used the same planet as the author. Good on you, mate!"

Also? I liked the DT. A lot. Good lord. Oh and also, I've even had people bitch to me for having epicyclical friended. Hello, wot? Did I miss the Bitterness express? I thought I was steering the train, only until I reached this fandom and realized I was merely hanging perilously from the caboose. *shakes head* She makes me laugh, people.

On the other hand, I've never been able to sit through more than a page of IP. Christ.

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

OMG. All Torn Down. URGH.

Sorry. But that is, like, two hours of my LIFE, that I will NEVER get back. WOE!

Anyway. I agree with Ash that often it has to deal with like-mindedness. If 500 fangirls says that Cassie Claire is the best thing since the wheel, the general perception of the fandom is that Cassie Claire is the best thing since the wheel. Because people want to fit it and make themselves look more cool and more popular. So after time, people get tired of that and the oh-so-controversial opinion that Cassie Claire is not the new wheel, but on the other hand, just recycled!

And lo, flame wars begin.

I think in terms of recs what people forget (both reccers and readers) is that these are, at heart, opinion. Too often recommendations have a feeling of "This Word -- My Word! -- Is Law! DO NOT DROP THE TABLETS, MOSES!" when it's a reaction to the story. I'm not going to rec something that affects me on an emotional level if it still doesn't make any sense logically, for example. But some of your recs are that type of story. Things that don't make logical sense to me, but are emotionally affecting.

I suppose I just think that all rec pages need a huge disclaimer for the stupid saying "These are my opinions. My opinions only. This X quality, this Y quality and this Z characterization are my favorite things. I tend to rec based on those things. This is an opinion only."

Well, maybe not a disclaimer, but often I wish rec pages would explain what the reccer likes in a story, in general, so that I don't have to wade through fifty stories I, as a reader, think are crap in order to find the one golden recommendation.

Yes! YES! IT'S ALL ABOUT ME.

(Um. I just woke up. Don't mind me. Will get caffeine now and attempt to wake up.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking-- my own bias and whether I should delineate it. Currently, I just say I have a style-bias on my recs page, but see, it's not finished yet ('cause generally it's meant to be a complation of all the things I'd recced on lj, and that's a boatload of entries to look through & I'm lazy). So I was always going to pretty it up once I got all the data down (and it's been almost a year, ahahahah).

So yeah, I'm very interested in seeing the nature of the bias next to the rec (which is what my second portion of the post was about, which most people skipped I guess, heh). Should I do that, then, do you think? I mean, I do think I have different ways to like a fic. Some fics, I think are wonderfully styled, some just hit me in the gut, some are just solidly and tightly written/characterized/plotted. I rec them all without clarifying which are which 'cause there's no short-cut way to sort them that I can think of right now, you know? I mean, what should I do, "squee" recs vs. "thinking" recs vs. "aesthetic" recs?

Right now my page is organized into "drama", "humor", pairing & author categories. I don't know who the hell reads that page, anyway, and I figure mostly no one does, so I don't bother, you know? Also, in each particular story? I have like, 500 fics I could rec, it'd kill me to review them all. Also, I expect the only people who'd care would trust my tastes anyway. Not that most people -do- have tastes similar to mine, so maybe it doesn't matter.

If I think about -most- stories intellectually, I can rip 100 holes in them and then I don't feel like reccing them at -all-. It's sort of the way I can't think of -anyone- who writes IC!Draco if I start really getting tough, y'know? I can be very very demanding, so usually I just go for the "okay, feels great, less filling" sort of thing. I dunno. I also feel my position on any fic I seriously rec to be generally intellectually (if not logically) defensible. I mean, for people who're looking for factor X, Y and Z, anyway, which is all anyone could ever claim.

And yes, I know, CC's Trilogy -isn't- the best thing since sliced bread, but I've seen -much-, much more bitching about it than pimping. I've never -yet- found a post pimping it and yet I've seen like, 10+ bitching about it, so it's disproportionate to me. If not for all the vitriol, the only squeeing would be when new chapters come out-- which isn't often. Also, it's just sad because it's NOT THAT BAD. I dunno. It's like-- okay, people squee about Everwood. I don't even know what Everwood -is-, so I don't -care-. No one -has- to read the Trilogy-- I mean, -I- haven't, y'know? I've barely read all of `Draco Veritas' (okay, no, I haven't by a long-shot). So yeah. I -still- haven't read most of it, but I like what I -have- read. And I believe this is a defensible position that can be discussed. And mindless squeeing isn't something you can counter with griping about the same-old same-old "graarr plagiarism" and "graaaar OOC!Draco", since everyone and their -brother- (including most of the critics!!1) writes OOC Draco. *siiiigh*

[verstehen.livejournal.com]

I actually like the idea of "Squee" v. "Style" v. "Aesthetic," though you definitely want to delineate the difference between Style and Aesthetic as often they're used interchangeably. And, if you wanted to go one step further, "Overall," for things that hit your hotspots in all three.

[isiscolo.livejournal.com]

I state my biases right upfront on my recs page; I know that nobody else's tastes is going to coincide exactly with mine, but that way people can nod their heads and say, "yeah, that's the sort of stuff I like, so," or perhaps, "oh, I'm not likely to find anything here I care for." Whichever.

I do try to say a little about why I rec each story, because I have such catholic tastes, and I don't want anyone to be fooled into reading a story they might not like - because then they trust me as a reccer a little less. And basically, all it means to be on my recs page is that I liked the story, for whatever reason. Woo.

Discussions like the one on cathexys's lj just underline that "good" is in the eye of the beholder (and according to the criteria of the reader), because every popular fic is both recced and antirecced. I have seen people come out against my very favorite stories, and I really dislike some other popular stories. Once you pass the basic bar of "good writing" there are so many little things that hit different people in different ways: pairing, characterization, kink, language, cadence, originality, philosophy. The exact same thing that one person will cite as the reason she likes a fic will be cited by someone else as the reason she dislikes it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I guess my recs page isn't done yet and I don't really pimp it anywhere, so I haven't put as much thought into it as I could. But yes, I would eventually state my biases (though the H/D and the stylistic-whore ones are there already). I have noticed that about the often opposing opinions, and of course that is perfectly natural. The only thing that gets me is the attitude of righteousness and the picking at the same exact scab (the exact same -three- stories) over and over and over.

It's like, how many times can one flog a dead horse? If not for people's enthusiasm for discussing it, I'd never have mentioned IP. Ever. Except to put it up on a longish list of recs, just because I enjoyed it, but then I enjoyed a number of fics that now make me cringe & that I have severe problems with. It's just a backlash, and that just seems counterproductive. The same way I tend to feel there's (an undeserved) backlash against H/D as a pairing. I mean, just because it's popular among plebes doesn't make it any more "cool" to always make sure to bash it.

Eh, I think this rant hasn't been too productive either, though. *cringes*

[spare-change.livejournal.com]

I don't think this argument quite makes sense. If certain stories are pimped to the exclusion of others, than doesn't it make sense that those who don't think the stories are worthy of the attention are similarly going to pipe up? I mean, you yourself often tend to return to the same stories over and over and over when you discuss H/D, and you're not alone in this. I can't think of many people who are rageaholic enough to sit at their computer and suddenly spew out a rant against a fic just 'cos they can't stop thinking how bad it is. Usually the anti-recs are in response to specific recs. This can be particularly annoying when every single person on one's friends' page is reccing the same fic. That's what sparks the frustration and the "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome, I think.

My own feeling is that, regardless of the fact that there are some popular stories and authors I adore and some that I think are over-rated, there are so many fabulous-yet-overlooked authors in the fandom that I would rather devote my recs to focusing on such people, who aren't already receiving a lot of feedback/attention/reviews. That's just my own priority.

In any event, I think the amount of time devoted to meta fandom wankery vs. discussion of writing actual fics (or actually writing the fics themselves) has really become disproportionate lately, and I don't see why people are getting so wibbly about something that is so clearly subjective as a personal recs site, anyway.