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reenkaI know how people get annoyed seeing the same uber-popular fics recced all the time, and oh yeah, I definitely empathize. Except I definitely also get really really irritated seeing the same fics anti-recced, too. It's always the same fanfics, whether they're being bashed or fangirled. It perpetuates the cycle. It spreads the disease, man.
Not to mention! No fic is -that- bad or -that- good. I fail to see why so many intelligent people feel the need to harp on something just because it's popular, whereas lots and lots of other fics are just as bad and most often -worse-. The only difference being that they're not pimped as loudly.
This isn't a phenomenon only seen in fanfic reccing, of course. The most hyped-up movies are also the most trashed ones by the critics. Speaking as someone who sometimes enjoys such movies shamelessly and sometimes hates them and sometimes can't be bothered-- it's kind of embarrassing to call yourself a critic and always descend to this petty bashing of the popular kids. I realize no one -cares- if you don't like some obscure art-house movie. But there's such a thing as a critic's integrity, too.
When people ask me what fics I can't stand, I usually name ones the other person hasn't heard of. Most people haven't read `Perfect Imperfection' or `All Torn Down' or `Ruses'-- but so what? I often think the whole idea of anti-reccing is fishy because it implies the person has read the fic in question beforehand-- otherwise they're not really going to -understand- what the big deal is unless you summarize the fic for them and have them sort of read it vicariously. Overall, it's more useful to generalize the flaws you see and try to promote good writing techniques rather than beat on these few popular stories, whether they're deservedly so or not. Though I admit partly it's just that I -like- IP and feel a tad embarrassed, eheheh.
~~
A few days ago, I was thinking slightly about![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
isiscolo's post about the necessary exclusivity of recs & the issue of needing to trust the reccer.
I wondered (once again) what exactly my bias is. I never really think about how I'm biased-- I rec mostly as a personal reference to myself, so it's implicit which fics are just "good porn" or "squee" or "deep" or "emotionally impactful". I don't know if that's useful to put next to my recs, though maybe I should. I definitely rec based on emotional reaction (laughter, sadness, pain, wonder, thoughtfulness, stylistic beauty, with style often dominating). It seems to me that any story can be written well or badly, but often enough this doesn't correlate to whether people would want to read it or not. People have their issues they're looking to see explored, types of characterizations they favor, things they notice while reading.
I think a number of people just don't -notice- the things I notice. I mean, I don't really know if/how many people do trust my recs, though I assume a number of people find my opinion valid, otherwise they wouldn't read it. Even so, I think the things I perceive are seen as -interesting- rather than er... evident.
As a writer, I think I tend to write to a certain audience-- all writers do, implicitly. There are certain givens in everyone's writing, unstated but always there. "This is what human beings act like." One might think it's universal, and it might be in a way, but not every writer has the same level and type of understanding of that universal. I tend to intuitively notice the sort of philosophy implied in people's writing-- it's just what comes naturally to me. So some of the thing that really attracts me or annoys me about a story is likely to be that subtle philosophical edge. Everything implies a philosophy of living, even Wal-Mart ads.
In a way, I think it's more interesting to delineate bias than to argue over specific instances in particular fics. Because once I start thinking about particular fics and whether they're good or bad and get into an argument about it, my temper starts to rise. It's very easy to start thinking that people have no taste and that they're just deluded. Most people just don't think about -why- a certain story appeals to them, but breaking it down too much could be counter-productive too, since a good story transcends categories and is just emotionally suited to its "ideal reader".
The thing is, there really isn't any reccer I trust completely. I've never really met someone with the same taste as me, even in the very limited world of H/D fics. I thinkeleveninches and I have the closest tastes of anyone else whose recs I've read in the fandom, but that's mostly 'cause she's very selective and generally I can trust her to look at the whole story rather than any particular emotional kink it has. That's usually a good recipe for something I'll enjoy at least on the "oh, good stuff" level if not the squeeing madness level.
That's kind of funny, isn't it? The same people who cry indignantly at IP also rec some of the most bland and boring dreck ever written in the pairing. I mean, just because it doesn't have purple prose or overt symbolism doesn't mean it's subtle and cutting and perfectly balanced by any means. But now I'm just kind of complaining, so I'll stop.
~~
You know how I said I hatehatehate pimping? Well, that's other people's pimping, not my own, ehehehe.
I was feeling all irritated and cranky, and then I stumbled upon one of my favorite HP fanartists-- Syrena Doné of jareth.com & Severus Snape's Slytherin Society. I love her Draco and her Snape. They're so... evil. *cries with joy* There's also this odds n' ends gallery with 'puter-hating!Snape, omg. Hee! I have this... thing against evil!Draco in fanfic but I -love- and adore seeing that awful sneer and the maniacally vicious glint in his eye. It just makes me warm and fuzzy. Her inking style is just so old-fashioned and intricate and the characterization so vivid and canon. Also, bathtub!Snape has my heart.
Not to mention! No fic is -that- bad or -that- good. I fail to see why so many intelligent people feel the need to harp on something just because it's popular, whereas lots and lots of other fics are just as bad and most often -worse-. The only difference being that they're not pimped as loudly.
This isn't a phenomenon only seen in fanfic reccing, of course. The most hyped-up movies are also the most trashed ones by the critics. Speaking as someone who sometimes enjoys such movies shamelessly and sometimes hates them and sometimes can't be bothered-- it's kind of embarrassing to call yourself a critic and always descend to this petty bashing of the popular kids. I realize no one -cares- if you don't like some obscure art-house movie. But there's such a thing as a critic's integrity, too.
When people ask me what fics I can't stand, I usually name ones the other person hasn't heard of. Most people haven't read `Perfect Imperfection' or `All Torn Down' or `Ruses'-- but so what? I often think the whole idea of anti-reccing is fishy because it implies the person has read the fic in question beforehand-- otherwise they're not really going to -understand- what the big deal is unless you summarize the fic for them and have them sort of read it vicariously. Overall, it's more useful to generalize the flaws you see and try to promote good writing techniques rather than beat on these few popular stories, whether they're deservedly so or not. Though I admit partly it's just that I -like- IP and feel a tad embarrassed, eheheh.
~~
A few days ago, I was thinking slightly about
isiscolo's post about the necessary exclusivity of recs & the issue of needing to trust the reccer. I wondered (once again) what exactly my bias is. I never really think about how I'm biased-- I rec mostly as a personal reference to myself, so it's implicit which fics are just "good porn" or "squee" or "deep" or "emotionally impactful". I don't know if that's useful to put next to my recs, though maybe I should. I definitely rec based on emotional reaction (laughter, sadness, pain, wonder, thoughtfulness, stylistic beauty, with style often dominating). It seems to me that any story can be written well or badly, but often enough this doesn't correlate to whether people would want to read it or not. People have their issues they're looking to see explored, types of characterizations they favor, things they notice while reading.
I think a number of people just don't -notice- the things I notice. I mean, I don't really know if/how many people do trust my recs, though I assume a number of people find my opinion valid, otherwise they wouldn't read it. Even so, I think the things I perceive are seen as -interesting- rather than er... evident.
As a writer, I think I tend to write to a certain audience-- all writers do, implicitly. There are certain givens in everyone's writing, unstated but always there. "This is what human beings act like." One might think it's universal, and it might be in a way, but not every writer has the same level and type of understanding of that universal. I tend to intuitively notice the sort of philosophy implied in people's writing-- it's just what comes naturally to me. So some of the thing that really attracts me or annoys me about a story is likely to be that subtle philosophical edge. Everything implies a philosophy of living, even Wal-Mart ads.
In a way, I think it's more interesting to delineate bias than to argue over specific instances in particular fics. Because once I start thinking about particular fics and whether they're good or bad and get into an argument about it, my temper starts to rise. It's very easy to start thinking that people have no taste and that they're just deluded. Most people just don't think about -why- a certain story appeals to them, but breaking it down too much could be counter-productive too, since a good story transcends categories and is just emotionally suited to its "ideal reader".
The thing is, there really isn't any reccer I trust completely. I've never really met someone with the same taste as me, even in the very limited world of H/D fics. I think
eleveninches and I have the closest tastes of anyone else whose recs I've read in the fandom, but that's mostly 'cause she's very selective and generally I can trust her to look at the whole story rather than any particular emotional kink it has. That's usually a good recipe for something I'll enjoy at least on the "oh, good stuff" level if not the squeeing madness level.That's kind of funny, isn't it? The same people who cry indignantly at IP also rec some of the most bland and boring dreck ever written in the pairing. I mean, just because it doesn't have purple prose or overt symbolism doesn't mean it's subtle and cutting and perfectly balanced by any means. But now I'm just kind of complaining, so I'll stop.
~~
You know how I said I hatehatehate pimping? Well, that's other people's pimping, not my own, ehehehe.
I was feeling all irritated and cranky, and then I stumbled upon one of my favorite HP fanartists-- Syrena Doné of jareth.com & Severus Snape's Slytherin Society. I love her Draco and her Snape. They're so... evil. *cries with joy* There's also this odds n' ends gallery with 'puter-hating!Snape, omg. Hee! I have this... thing against evil!Draco in fanfic but I -love- and adore seeing that awful sneer and the maniacally vicious glint in his eye. It just makes me warm and fuzzy. Her inking style is just so old-fashioned and intricate and the characterization so vivid and canon. Also, bathtub!Snape has my heart.
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no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 11:37 am (UTC)My own feeling is that, regardless of the fact that there are some popular stories and authors I adore and some that I think are over-rated, there are so many fabulous-yet-overlooked authors in the fandom that I would rather devote my recs to focusing on such people, who aren't already receiving a lot of feedback/attention/reviews. That's just my own priority.
In any event, I think the amount of time devoted to meta fandom wankery vs. discussion of writing actual fics (or actually writing the fics themselves) has really become disproportionate lately, and I don't see why people are getting so wibbly about something that is so clearly subjective as a personal recs site, anyway.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 11:53 am (UTC)So yeah. Like I said at the beginning, I totally empathize with getting annoyed at the pimpage. I get annoyed at -any- pimpage. Someone recs a story too 100% enthusiastically? I get a little annoyed! Over-positivism and fangirlism bugs me a -lot-. Too much, even. So I totally understand the frustration. So this whole annoyance with the anti-reccing is coming from someone who -understands-. But! I personally, completely unreasonably, also feel frustrated at all the people who continuously act as if it's subversive and shocking to bash CC one more time. Because it's not. Everyone knows there are as many people who hate these fics as love them. I wish the pro -and- con people would just stop. I don't even know what bothers me more, except that the squeeing fangirls are clearly dumb, whereas the booing anti-fangirls are usually being "the intelligentsia". I'm not really that upset, it just seems counterproductive 'cause no one really -listens- unless they're already converted and I myself am tired of seeing these fics bashed -and- recced. If I had to pick one evil, I'd pick recced, 'cause honestly, I don't remember the last time I saw someone rec `Draco Veritas' or IP on my friends list. But then, I don't friend plebes, generally.
*sighs* Now I sound really pissy, whereas I'm not. ^^;
As far as my own rec site... I'm just sort of anal and into categorizing things, is all. It's for my own benefit, really. I want to do the best job I can, if I have a project, that's just how uptight I am :>
I'm sorry if I contributed to fandom wankery with this :((
Just grumbling a little, didn't mean to stir anything up. *meeps*
no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 02:19 pm (UTC)This is before you entered fandom, but believe me, it really freaked me out. If you want, I can even try and go back and dig up the page ... it's not on the internet, but on my HD, though.
Ditto when I said that I didn't like DT. And I've seen this happen elsewhere, too. Anybody who doesn't like that fic has a horde of Cassie's friends descend upon her and yell at her. I understand that her friends feel protective of her, but I think that they've become so defensive about this issue that they're often not able to distinguish between when the critic is being an asshole and when the critic is actually giving a valid critique. Which means that the civilian casualty rate tends to be high.
This really upset me because I find it insulting to my personal integrity to hear that the reason I don't like DT is because I'm jealous or elitist or just trying to sound "cool" and counter-cultural. All of which I've been told. Repeatedly. I mean, come on. I know entire passages of Seeker to Seeker by heart. I'm a huge fan of some of the most popular fics and authors. I would never, ever speak out against a specific fic simply as a knee-jerk reaction against "popularity." I don't have a bone to pick with BNFs because ... Jesus. It's the internet. It's fucking fanfic. Can we maintain a sense of proportion, here?
To twist the phrase: "Popularity on the internet is like the Special Olympics. You're still retarded." :D
Anyway, I just mention all this about being attacked for voicing unpopular opinions because I think it's an important part of this issue that you may not be aware of.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 02:47 pm (UTC)Okay, you know how they had JKR's books dominate the bestseller list in NYTimes until they just made a "children's books" bestseller list for it? I really would never even begin to call anyone's motivations for valid critique of any work into question. I do think there's a sort of knee-jerk reaction some people have where they use IP and the DT and so on as default "well, there's an anti-rec for ya" sort of thing. Maybe I'm just imagining it. The fandom has come a ways since the speaking out against the big-name fanfics was unusual and even necessary, hasn't it? I dunno.
The whole thing gives me a horrible taste in my mouth :/
At this point I wish we could just forget about these fics, I guess. Neither CC or Rhysenn have been definitive in my own imagitation as far as H/D and omg I haven't even -read- 85% of the Trilogy, man (so y'know, I don't dig it as much as I could, clearly). *sigh* I just feel maybe IP has become a default target. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's not like I gave a lot of thought to it, like I said. ^^; Meep.
This whole big-name fanfic thing is just... retarded, heh. And people... I don't even know what to say about some people & their... issues. Oh man. *weak laugh* To me, it defeats the purpose of anti-reccing to always anti-rec the same few fics, just as it defeats the purpose of -reccing- to always rec the same few fics. That was all I was saying. I -know- it's a touchy subject, but ohmygod, how I wish it wasn't. GODDAMN. Fandom is just too much for me sometimes -.-
*weebles*
no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 02:51 pm (UTC)Anyway, I think it's such a silly, stupid fic that I don't really think it's worth discussing, either as a rec OR anti-rec. But I can understand why people get so annoyed about it's popularity, and Rhysenn's own ridiculous behavior (i.e. asking people for money) definitely doesn't help.
no subject
Date: 2003-11-24 03:08 pm (UTC)I think it's just that they're in -their- little bubble of newbieness and me? I'm in -my- little bubble of oldbieness (even though a lot of the people I know on lj have been around longer than I have). So it's like, I realize in the wide wide world of the "fandom at large", they're still splashing around with their IP and their DT whereas I'm just so far beyond it than I'm like "eh? what language are ya speakin' there, young'ins??"
Um. yeah -.-
IP is so "that fic I once stayed up late reading one night in June". I have the memories of "OMG ANGST & H/D & PANE, GUH" which I remember more than the fic, seriously. The fact that it's one of the first H/D fics I'd read and I didn't know about fanon cliche and I haven't read canon prolly had a lot to do with my being enthralled, too. To me that's all it is. It's sort of like I remember Dahlia's fic (OMG SHOWER-SEX!!1) and LUW (SINGING ROSES!! GROPING!!)... yeah. I don't remember my reaction to `Haven' or `Belong' or `Origins', and I stopped in the middle of `Belong' to read `Origins', too. Siiiigh. I have this great golden memory of reading my first HP fanfic (Durendal's Weasel series) and I hadn't read canon yet, just seen the movie and I was like, "OMG I DIDN'T REALIZE RON WAS EVIL!!1" ahahaha. Good times.
Anyway, those were the good old days, ahaha. It's a bit freaky that these fics are still being rediscovered, but hey, more power to 'em, I guess. Rhysenn herself seems kind of pompous but harmless, mostly? *coughs* Um. heee. Most of the fics I'd read in the beginning all run together in my mind, too, so I couldn't even differentiate which one had which gropey Quidditch scene and over-the-top language to anti-rec, eheheh. I think a largish percentage of that early H/D was over the top and wacked-out, but hey, that's what I was there for ^^;
Ahahahaha omg, the sheer glory of all the gooey excess of those days, and me worshipping `Tower with a View' and `Dragonweed' and thinking `Draco Malfoy & the Heart of Slytherin' was really quite good, ahahahah. um. We're all young once. And some of us just...mature slower than others, maybe? :>