~~lists. i like lists.

[reenka]

i know there was some loff for my harry & draco characterization list. and well, i hate it but it happens-- i'm starting to notice patterns. evil patterns, evil. i'm starting to get the drift-- where things are going-- i'm not a person who predicts things easily, mind you. my analytical side likes days off. a -lot- of days off. but i'm beginning to think i know the deal. so here goes, inspired by penelope_z's question on why would harry love draco. so let's hit it.

Reena's Waste of Braincells, Exhibit A
      Fanon Cliches of H/D Love [not Lust]

1) - Draco has to kill Harry because of orders [i.e., Lucius/Voldemort]
    - realizes he can't [``but I love Harry!"]
    - realizes he wants to make up his own mind
    - blah blah joins the Light Side blah

2) - Draco isn't antagonistic anymore
    - Harry wonders why/has to investigate
        + is intrigued
    - Harry becomes impromptu counselor
        + bonding
    - Harry is snapped out of obliviousness
        + becomes obsessed himself

3) - Draco has something Harry needs [or wants]
    - familiarity with darkness
        + to show Harry
        + to help Harry fight it [blah, war, blah]
    - ``you hurt so good" [i.e., pain/anger makes Harry feel more alive]

4) - Harry and Draco are thrown together by events
    - during the war
    - working on a project both are invested in
        + come to understand each other
    - Harry sees Draco has his uses

5) - Draco's physical effect on Harry [while fighting/fucking: lust] makes Harry question everything about himself
    - Harry trusts his new instincts
        + disregards common sense and proceeds to shag like bunnies
    - Harry sees Draco's gentler/emotional side
    - Harry "just falls" in love/lust
        + becomes obsessed himself

6) - Draco decides to pursue Harry thus changing a basic aspect of their former dynamic.
    - ``You want me??"
      ``I want you?!"
    - Harry loses former compass
    - Draco acts in more varied ways, confusing & mystifying & intriguing
    - Harry's view of Draco expands & so does the room for more feelings
    - Draco plays hard-to-get, inflaming Harry
        + IP..!

7) - Harry wakes up and smells the sexy [also known as #2 with a ``lemon twist"]
    - usually Draco is acting aloof [Harry/Draco role-reversal]
    - Draco remembers his former obsession
        + ``He's good/evil but I want him!"
        + yeay, bye-bye logic, etc.



am going hot and cold now, with harry/draco and stuff, as winter approaches. what i mean is-- i both disbelieve fairy-tales and cling to them like a crazed hussy. penelope_z's latest post illustrated that. i was so excited to see how she could possibly get them out of this pickle (unapologetic-bastard!malfoy and in-character!harry, etc), but she doesn't know either, and now-- now i wonder who -does- know.
my reply just basically said that here's what's been done before, and these are the routes you could take, but none of them are 100% honest and anyway, most of these fics are unfinished. yes, all my favorite fics have either a toned-down malfoy or a darkened harry. all of them. malfoy has -some- redeeming quality besides his desire for harry, in every single one. wax_jism's fic wasn't really like that, but then, it didn't exactly have a traditional love affair, and in fact had nothing but some groping, did it.

i'm thinking of the more fluffy (but in-character) fics-- like silviakundera's and augustuscaesar's-- and the difference is that draco is a prat, yes, and casually cruel, yes, but-- well-- it being fluffy rather than angsty you don't need to the deepest of harry's motivations and could just have draco wear him down, or harry just having a "thing" for malfoy all of a sudden. if you consider him just having a "thing" to be cheating and not explaining it-- then what?

this is like an elaborate chinese-box puzzle for me. my mind just goes over and over it and i can't really see a solution that is completely honest. i refuse to say, "but they just aren't canon", which is bullshit. you take these archetypes and you see what you can do with them. like, fitting jig-saw pieces together, i turn them around and around, this way and that. every single fic i read-- every single one-- i want the answer to this question-- how & why. how gets answered all the time, but why-- there's usually some cheating there. it's always-- like i said in my reply-- either plain attraction, or harry's descent into darkness, or them being brought together by war (or plot!), or harry realizing there's "more" to draco, or him being tired of fighting (uh... yeah), and deciding to be friends-- which just changes it from harry & draco to harry & some guy who used to be draco but has been house-trained a little. i'm not saying they all turn draco into an apologist, because they don't-- but he isn't so petty, so completely raw and lacking in layers of obfuscation and mystery-- penelope's draco is so straight-forward. so basic. the core of draco, violent and needy and selfish and cruel and unstable and heartless and possessive and passionate.

i've asked this question before, on this lj.
no one's ever answered me-- i don't think anyone truly knows. one person's guess is as good as another's.
when i post inspirational pieces, people respond and say "yes" or "thank you", but. i also want to be inspired. i also want to be reassured. i want a fic where you take unapologetic!draco, cruel, petty, needy-- and make harry somehow fit that. somehow. maybe it's impossible after all.

i'm not exactly mercurial or unsure-- i still believe. but i'm not blind. i want actual thought and discussion and i want -realism-. maybe this is just fanfic, and just a stupid pairing, at that. it is. why do i even bother. but it's difficult, you see. it's difficult, and a challenge, just like harry is a challenge to draco-- and truth is, i can definitely see this love being unrequited. maybe this is the angle i should pursue with my draco/ginny fic. because ginny would be different. beggars can't be choosers. but that's not how harry is. he needs to think there's more to draco, something he needs in draco, besides want/desire, which other people can give him. it's been proposed that only draco can see him for himself, on an equal level.

bleh. like i was saying, what reason does -anyone- have to love -anyone-? why does -anything- work? if we can figure out harry & draco, what mystery would remain? nothing "just comes" in life, nothing just "happens"-- or does it? do you choose your destiny or are you simply drawn, inexorably, towards the things you cannot escape within yourself? that's alright, i like the echoes.

~~

in other news..! hee! hee!
i posted my fluff-fic from last night on two lists and got two reviews...!
*cries*
such glory. i got the longest review yet :D hee! hee! she said it was one of her favourite things, too :D hah and she said it was in-character! i die.

aww. *melting* i feel the loff. i was being wibbly because i'd have thought this last one was a crowd-pleaser (yea, right) but least it's a two-people pleaser!!! dammit :P
~~

art links..!
    moya's boy-next-door!harry-- don't you just want to schnoogle him-- and rip his jeans off??
    from drawmeharry: a wonderfully inked, uber-realistic snape-- by drizzt-- whose skill knocks me off my feet and onto my butt. i will NEVER be that good. most people i rave about will never be that good. yes, i'm telling you, stop comparing to the rest and start comparing to the best (yes well, in the wan hopes one can, in fact, catch up *sigh*) then again, she's professional, so ^^;;
    and draco's long lost, adorable twin sister, who proves that i'd ship het if there was anyone like her to use~:)

Comments

[annabelle-lee.livejournal.com]

Well, that's quite a quandary you have, with the shippage, and I wish I knew what to tell you, but not being a Harry/Draco person myself, I have no idea.

Actually, though, I once stumbled upon a Oliver/Marcus fic (and I swear, I have no idea where it went, I searched forever for it again). It was very vague, the fic, but really good, and basically was about Oliver trying to see the human in Marcus, and telling him at the start "Oh, you're not a monster, I love you, I'll never leave you," and then, after the fairy tale, realizing he was tired of finding the good in Marcus, and there wasn't any. So he left, and tried to take back all the promises he made, but realized he couldn't live without Marcus, and came back and said, "I lied, you are a monster," and then proceeded to snog him, of course. And, it was very intense and disillusioned and very good. So, that's what I thought of, with your post. Maybe you need to find some fics where there isn't anything redeeming, and it doesn't make sense, and that's the point. And if you can't find any, write your own. Because I just read your fluff story on your last post, and I bet you could! (Sorry, I should have reviewed before, but I'll do it here and make this really really long. Good time had by all.)

Pillows! I was sold at the pillow thing, it was adorable. I don't think I've ever seen something like that with pillows before, but when you think about it, it's actually very romantic- even if they trade pillows on purpose, just to feel nearer to one another, it's a very sweet idea. And Draco seemed... petulant, almost, sort of childlike and simplistic, without that being a bad thing. (And I think he was still in character.) It was good, I liked it. Evil kittens, fireworks, it was all good, I liked it all. (They get very touchy-feely at the end, don't they? Erm, does the rest of the school notice that?) Bravo! Well done! I applaud.

Oh, and I thought I should tell you- I really like your posts. When you read a fic that you love (and you have such wonderful taste, from the ones I've been able to read, they're always gush-worthy) and you get all excited about it, you describing a fic is almost always as good as the fic itself. Just thought you should know. ^_-

C.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hee~! i did take care that most of the school were keeping well away from harry & draco, i thought ^^;;
but hee~! i was being all kinky wasn't i :D muwahahah. i was staying away from writing slashy lemons (mostly because face it, most of them are so. lame. *laughs*)-- and it's funny to have snuck that in there, but then, ashkitty asked, so :D ha.

oh, and-- re: the ``you're a monster *snog* *snog*" thing-- yes..!
shades of beauty and the beast, no?
what if Beast really -was- a monster? what if that's why Beauty left??! *squees in fairy-tale-rewriting glee*
what if she comes back -- because she realizes she can't bear it without him-- and he can't bear it without her (obviously)-- and they SNOG (ooo, sexy)-- and he turns into a beautiful shaggable prince-- and she's like-- "you're still a monster"-- *more snogs*? *squees more*
yes.
just, i always thought harry was too moralistic for that. harry's -very- moralistic, isn't he? *le sigh*

but yes, i love that idea ~:D
love can transcend the superego, see if it can't :D

~reena

[skysorceress.livejournal.com]

*dies laughing at list of cliches, then looks guilty* Haha, some of those almost describe AF word for word. ^_- Mostly, hmm, 3 and 4. Is it wrong that I'm somewhat tempted to write a fic including *all* of those cliches? Mwaha, j/k. I think. Very interesting post..Gives me much to ponder.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

erm. *shuffles*
*looks down at feet*
hee~!

i should've called this: fanon conventions of how harry might get to like draco, to help penelope_z with her fic. because. you read `the untold want', right? (if you don't, you should!! she's. oh god. anyway...)-- anyway, she's at that point where i was, when i stopped writing my own harry/draco epic, in disgust. so why would in-character!harry like in-character!draco, again? etc.

so i did what i do best: summarize and generalize ~:) mostly generalize.
it's not that i think they're all bad ideas. almost all of these come from -both- goodfic and badfic.
the thing is, i want -pure- harry and -pure- draco, with nothing that seems like an excuse or a softening of edges-- or a prettying-up-- or a darkening-- just-- i want them to happen anyway. harry would't be dark. malfoy wouldn't be less snarky. harry wouldn't "like it that way". draco wouldn't stand for harry's friends, but he might (might!) secretly respect hermione, but he'll never like ron, etc etc and so on and so forth.

and i was thinking of `artful facade' for the dark!harry option, simply because out of all fics, you did it best ~:D and there's nothing saying that it's intrinsically necessary to have "pure" harry & draco. y'know? yeah. all that matters is the storyteller & their story.

so. yeah. but if you have any ideas for penelope..... *sighs*~

~reena

Re:

[skysorceress.livejournal.com]

I completely understand. Don't think I was offended in the least. I suppose that there's not so much pure Harry and Draco because we, or at least I, have a tendency to want to expand on the characters, to mold what is there into something that interests us more. I know that I made Harry darker not as an excuse for him to be with Draco, but because that side of Harry has always interested me more than pure!Harry. I think. Just got home and am rambly and incoherent, so ignore this if it makes no sense.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hmm. that's a whole new can of worms.
what if all the things that i came up with-- are all to make draco or harry more interesting, because as they are, they're too cardboard...? i suppose that's a valid enough point.

mind you, (*laughs*) i haven't even -read- canon beyond three quarters of the first book, so like, what can -i- say to that?? :D
i like draco they way he is (ie, i do still hate it when you get mature!draco-- to hell with mature draco, i mean, he's a totally different character then)-- and i -think- i like harry the way he is, but i can't be sure. i know i like ambiguous characters-- neither dark nor light, and i think that's how harry's supposed to be, in canon. hard to tell. i remember back when i read it (er... more than a month ago, now ^^;; heh), i was surprised at how witty harry was, how he wasn't some goody two-shoe, the way some stories portray him as. he's not a boyscout or anything....

i like that uncertainty. he's a boy. he's finding out things. have you seen `stand by me' (the movie)? or `the outsiders'? i also am thinking of `a separate peace' and `dead poet's society' and even `lord of the flies' and of course, The Absolute Classic, `a catcher in the rye'. all schoolboy-meets-darkness movies/stories.

none of them have "dark" characters to start with and i think that's why they work so well.
i want someone to write hp in the tradition of those stories. something with gravity, and insight into the workings of a normal boy's mind-- finding out they're really alone in the world. finding out who they really are. realizing how different they are now, then they were at eleven. and still remaining themselves, or struggling to. maybe failing. maybe giving up. having painful, confusing emotions. trying to deal with them.
     the world of harry potter is ridiculous and over-the-top, and it makes it hard to have deep, human characterizations. you have voldemort (oh please), you have silliness everywhere-- you have people like ron (*shudder*), etc. you have malfoy as the potential love interest, and how pathetic is -that-? i mean-- when you're young, you want to idolize someone, you want to really fall hard and be enchanted and be swept off your feet-- it may seem painful and ridiculous later, but-- when you're say, 16, you shouldn't be jaded immediately.

and how could jadedness and darkness -not- play a part in a harry/draco romance? it can't. on some level, i don't know if harry would ever embrace it just because of that. harry has enough darkness without needing draco to make him feel even more pathetic about it.

i'm just saying, harry is already dark-- i agree with the accessment that he's darker than draco. draco is an innocent, really. harry's the one who's had to deal with way more than he should in his life.
*sigh*
but no, you have to get a lot more incoherent than that before i can't decipher you~:)

~reena

I was going to rant about this on my own livejournal, but...

[metro99.livejournal.com]

I've long had this problem with that Harry/Draco dynamic, even though I'm an avid H/D shipper and I write it myself. Although, short fics are so much easier to cut cliches out of. I don't like the idea of pinning everything down to lust and sexual attraction, because after awhile, the excuse doesn't fly anymore.

However:

Draco has to kill Harry because of orders

I really don't understand why exactly anyone thinks Lucius or Voldemort would order Draco to kill Harry. Okay, it makes for a good start to a plot, I guess, but it usually isn't all that plausible, unless they're older. I mean, at this point in the books Draco is kind of an immature idiot. Forgive me for saying so - he's my favorite character, after all - but he's incapable of pulling off his own plots, much less Voldemort's or Lucius's. Unless they're older, and he's grown up a little.

But let me backtrack, I think Draco's character can go into two directions plausibly in fanon. He can be uber-evil and dark or he can be the conniving, malicious boy he's always been: playing pranks but mostly harmless. Most people don't really write the latter. They instead make him fluffy, which isn't canon at all. He starts turning kind of Mary Sue-ish, which leads to bad fanfic, which leads to me wanting to write some, which is bad for all.

Anyway, since I exclude redeemed-and-fluffy!Draco from this, I'm left with dark!Draco and with relatively-canon!Draco. I have trouble seeing a reason that Harry would be in love or even like either of these versions. I'd like to think that if Harry ever actually talked to Draco and got to know him, that they might get along or even understand each other. But even if they would get along if they talked, it's hard coming up with a non-cliched situation where they're thrown together and have the opportunity to talk.

But even if they did get along, Harry's got no need for another friend. He's got some already, and they don't like Draco. If anyone made an active pursuit towards a relationship, it'd be Draco. And Draco's not too likely to put himself on the line by asking for Harry's friendship yet again, since he's already been through that before.

So, in the end, I'm not quite sure what I wanted to say. My mind moves in these circles everytime I ponder their relationship dynamic and I always end with no conclusion. I love reading H/D - it's about the only fanfic I read - but when it comes down to it, it's hard to find a logical explanation for it.

If I had to choose a plausible plotline, however, I'd pick the one about Draco understanding Harry's darkness. To me, Draco is less dark than Harry is. I mean, Draco goes around supporting it, but Harry's got it somewhat inside of him. I love that aspect of his character.

Umm...sorry for the ramble. I just like to talk about H/D. It's so damn interesting.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

And Draco's not too likely to put himself on the line by asking for Harry's friendship yet again
...

yes. yes. definitely. so it's kinda like, -harry- has to be the one making the move...? or malfoy wants to get back at him, and uses him sexually maybe? or again, malfoy gets aloof, harry's intrigued, etc.
i know what you mean about semi-redeemed!mary-sue!malfoy-- this is where a lot of the chaptered fics go, definitely. weird, that most writers actually identify more with harry than with draco. i do, too, sorta, except i'm nothing like draco ^^;; hee. i'll admit that~:) i'm not exactly a -gryffindor-... more like ravenclaw that would probably get stuck in gryffindor because i'm into being naughty and breaking rules, like hermione ^^;;

i know what you mean, also, about it probably being-- interesting-- if they talked, that there's potential there. but i dunno, i don't like having to turn harry dark to do it-- yes, harry has darkness inside him, but it's that -tension- that teetering-in-the-edge, that's interesting, not the fall into the abyss or whatever. it's just depressing.

*sigh* i know i'm definitely not the only h/d shipper with doubts and "issues" about the pairing. it's not like most of us are naive fluff-bunnies, most definitely ^^;; (that's why so many people seem so --appealing to me, in this `ship/fandom-- there's a good crop of intelligent folk who ship harry/draco-- moreso, i think, than harry/ginny for example ^^;; heh)

i just-- i still want that fic that-- you know-- does it.
i wanna see where `underwater light' & `mirrors' and even luw and `the untold want' and `plague of legends' go-- though neither of them is The Fic, the One True Fic that takes no shortcuts. *sigh*

oh, and never fell sorry 'bout rambling 'cause a) i do it all the time, and spam -your- friends page with them; b) i luurrrve people who take time to anwer my questions~:D

~reena

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Ooh! Damn, but your journal's great. It's making me feel very silly for the amount of RL posts I've been writing recently.

Hmm. Tell me, do you see the 'conventions' as being universally OOC? Perhaps OOC is too harsh a word, but you say that the boys are being changed, even if it's a gradual development, and that nobody can show you Harry-the-way-he-is-now falling in love with Draco-the-way-he-is-now.

Ah. But doesn't the very fact that they make a good pairing (something I'll take as read now, seeing as we both agree on it) mean that they will have an influence on one other through frequent contact? Something in one will call to the other, and vice versa. Tensions will spring to life and develop. There will be needs. And once you develop a need, you are changed. All sorts of priorities change.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

firstly... squeee..~!
*ponders* should i fangirl you?? hee! i'm reading `veela magic' right about now~:D
alright so i'm in the beginning of the first chapter (thus, will review in few days) ^^;; but mostly i'm your fangirl (ugh, bad, bad word-- admirer?
er...yah) 'cause of this (http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=lasultrix&itemid=2353#cutid1), which is one of the most beautiful, amazing things i've ever read, ever.
so. yes.

i haven't read it all this time 'cause i thought it was mostly fleur/cho with some harry/draco as a background pairing. and i was going to go through -all- of the readable h/d before i um... branched out. because i, for one, am not here for the "Good Writing" (because then i'd just read original fic, let's face it, heh)-- but for harry/draco. but squee~:) am so amazed you know/read about lil old me~:D

er. onwards ^^
you make an interesting point. no, i wasn't saying they were all necessarily ooc, though "cliche" implies that-- sort of. i just meant there were... short-cuts that get used a lot. yes, i fully intend them to be able to change each other-- it's not love if that doesn't happen. in fact, i find it sort of depressing if that -doesn't- happen, and they just have this horrible cycle of misunderstandings and lost opportunities and entropy. all i really want is for the writer not to tinker -too- much with the initial dynamic-- so that i feel that they're starting from some place that resembles "canon" and then they could go anywhere they want, from that.
    a lot of (good) fics take a changed harry (or draco) for granted-- "something happened"-- during the summer, or last year, or just-- growing up. and i realize maybe the writers like the character more that way and aren't just trying to make the pairing easier-- but i still think that doesn't say much about the pairing if most of the stories have to change them somehow to start with, before bringing them together.

if the characters -don't- change, you have a stagnant, boring sort of story, really. but if they're already half-way unrecognizable from pre-fic events-- and you spend the fic (it happens) getting -back- to canon (like, draco is all blah and `i'm above that sort of thing now' and harry has to inspire the fire back into him, or vice versa).

and definitely, they're not "ooc" just because a plot convention is used... it all depends on how you -use- a plot, and depends just how ooc -are- they. plot influences character possibilities, but not completely. it's all tricky and dependent on the story ^^;

hee. and i feel like i talk -too much- about hp stuff and people think i'm just a fangirl with no life ~:) "doesn't she have anything better to do??" hee~:) i'd write about my life if i could make it interesting -.-

~~reena, who realizes she could never win

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

I'm sitting here in a computer lab at Trinity almost crying because you said that about the Jill story. *watery smile* Because... it's all true. It's what happened to me, and I had to write it, and the truest way I could write it was to make every word of it metaphorical.

Whee! You're reading VM. I loved your review of PFI (which I started beta-ing for recently) and I followed links I saw to your journal. Plus, I adore the fact that you talk so much about HP. I'm all about the meta, me. Hell, I'm studying Philosophy. The idea for VM actually started as H/D with F/C as background, you know, but now the way it's going is they're both pretty equal.

So... mutual fangirling, eh?

*fangirls and runs*