reenka | ....

...I just had the most disturbing vision out of the corner of my eye, of my plushie!Harry with long wild black hair o_0 Y'know, but still with his messed-up striped t-shirt & jeans & glasses & stuff.

As flash occurred, I realized I would possibly adore girl!Harry even more than boy!Harry, in a way. In an OMG CRUSH sort of way o_0 He's just. My darling as a boy, but as a girl he's. Just. Dude. Breasts o_0 Awkwardness. Still wearing boy clothes. And blushing a lot. And still being very angry. And punching Ron for staring. And. Suddenly getting weird reactions about... boys. Which may or may not have always been there. And. Liking Ginny more. And. Omg, breasts.

Feel like the biggest perv that ever lived o_0 I know Silvia wrote it, but see. This is less about the funny (though still funny) and more about the. Y'know. Sex. And gender-bending. And Harry not being gorgeous! Just lanky & skinny & with wild hair & small breasts & still the urge to kick things. Like, he's totally the same except. Y'know. Yeah.

Girl!Harry & Hermione, ack. He'd like-- go to her for advice and-- stuff-- and-- fumbling would occur, and. It would be so awkward! And. Hot! And Ron! Poor Ron, with the staring and the being rather awkward and messed with and. Ack! And. Draco would. Be so confused. And angry. And confused. And how could he act the same way? Potter is a GIRL! It's just. Too weird. So. He just. Avoids. And wanks. And stalks, like in the shower or something. o_0

Seriously have to fight urge to write girl!Harry. Ack. Someone talk me out of this...! Please.

Wah. Okay I think I've purged it. 'Cause clearly it's not going anywhere, it's just-- ack short skirts & knobby knees...! And Draco like, fainting (and we can't forget Ron-- what with the wanting to grope Harry's breasts 'cause they're mates & that's the sort of favor one would expect), and Hermione being protective (or possessive! Harry, you must take care of yourself now that you're one of us!) and Ginny deciding she's gay (well, she is in my head) and. Omg. Everyone Wants Harry = Reena Is Ever So Lame. It's just. I can't decide who to pair her with-- I just think everyone would be confused, it's not that they all want her. It's just that... hormones are everywhere. And she wanks a lot. And possibly I could see it being H/D but mostly. Girl!Harry. Still angry. Ack. And violent! And. Getting into physical fights!! Omg. See, this is why I should be asleep now. Bad Reena, no Mary-Sue!Harry for you. *slaps own wrist*
~~

PS.

potter_mouth can most definitely have my babies anytime, anywhere. Forget about that girl!Harry thing, I'm totally sold on the testosterone overload, I really am. CALL ME, BABY. :-*
~~I mean, it's likely enough you like boys, but you being fictional & me being creative, we can work something out, non?~~

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Hee! Charred remains, eh? :> No, I know what you mean, though I don't see Snape in a bad enough light to see him as a punishment for Lily-- if anything, he's prolly a 'better' match for someone than Draco, 'cause at least he's pretty intelligent & at least somewhat ethically aware...? But yeah... I mostly like Snape/Lily 'cause of my redemption-fic obsession and I think she could've been good for him, y'know. But I never seriously thought about it, honestly, and clearly I haven't read any fic. I don't really think it could work without being an AU, but in that Alternate Universe it could be interesting, though I like Lily/James (and the existence of Harry!) too much to mess with it, though if one was really perverse one could kill off James after Harry's born.... making Snape his stepfather... but uh, I'm not that cruel :>

Anyway, having any part of a pairing be a burden or a 'cause' for he other part is just ridiculous. I want Harry & Draco to find some sort of balance. I think I took your advice and went a long way towards explaining... things, with the Death Eater!Draco fic, by the way. I think it'll end up being like, 70 pages, but it'll be worth it, and it's all thanks to you <3<3 You're like, its fairy godmother now :D Plus, it kinda has a plot now o_0 And Nott! Seamus! Percy! Hermione~! And Pansy. And much much much more Harry. Hee. I did my homework :> So yes. We are on the same wavelength, never fear.

Afterwards I might right the H/R. I've been having small overtures of affection for H/R lately, and after my 70 page H/D monster, I'll need some comic relief, so maybe :D :D

From:

cellia.livejournal.com

I mostly like Snape/Lily 'cause of my redemption-fic obsession and I think she could've been good for him, y'know.

See, that's the thing, *she's* good for *him.* What does she get out of it, poor chick? This is shallow, but at least James was cute. And smart. And an alpha type guy. If nothing else, good genes. Oh, and rich. And, if one cares (which I think most of the wizarding world does deep down), a pureblood and Old family. And magically powerful. And crazy about her. *crushes on cocky bastard James as I am shallow*

I was talking to a friend who teaches Psych and she said the best indicator of couple compatibility and lastingness: physical appearance. (ie 10s with 10s, 5s with 5s) I was all T_T, but then... as I think about it... Of course, this is way averaged out with many many people in studies, so it's not like no one can ever get with anyone cuter or uglier than themselves and um, I've forgotten what I was talking about ^^;;

...

Your Hanadan ref just gave me this bizarre image of MWPP as F4. Lily is obviously Tsukushi. Other comparisons break down, sadly.

About the DE!Draco fic... is the Hanged Man one? Because I thought you had good things with Draco there, but he remained such a miserable bastard... it was hard to see him as anything but a nasty albatross around Harry's neck. Or that Harry had some masochistic tendencies that he should get resolved so he can dump Draco and get a real companion/life partner... Like, if Draco goes evil-flavored, but is never redeemed or something along those lines...

I don't think I can think cleverly enough to be objective about it, but it just makes me depressed and irritable. And feeling bad for Harry.

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Man. I'm totally obsessed with balance too, and want relationships to be equally satisfying for both parties, but like... in The Hanged Man in particular... see, that's not the whole story of Harry/Draco, that is only the the story of how Draco became a Death Eater and it wasn't really okay, but he learned his lesson. That's why I had all the Tarot references-- because the 'Hanged Man' card is all about The Fool learning a lesson about being trapped and redeemed/set free by letting go of control and their ideas about their life/destiny/etc. This ended up being a fic more about Draco's beginning to understand rather than him becoming 'good enough' for Harry, which comes later-- like, that's where I was going at the end, with the crying and him saying 'he's ready' and Harry understanding-- I wanted to say they could start over. Or at least now Draco could.

Also, I keep adding to it and giving it more plot so that Draco gets more of a reason to be out of prison and okay he's never really 'redeemed', as it's more a forgiveness arc, but... sometimes what we give people isn't like... necessarily happy & positive, but it's still what they want at the time, and then people grow and their relationship becomes happier if they work at it. Sometimes people/situations are so messed up it's almost impossible to have a 'good' (healthy) relationship. I think a 'good' relationship wouldn't be realistic for H&D in Hogwarts, but it's possible to eventually get there if they stick with it and go through some stuff-- and Draco just has different stuff than Harry, who needed to change too, I think, to become more compassionate/understanding also.

It's like, sometimes people just aren't ready for each other... but if you think it'd help, I could end with them parting ways temporarily/for now... it's just that might look a bit arbitrary... and I dunno if it would improve the story per se. The 'happier' part would come after this arc, actually, where Draco probably makes/finds a new wand, asserts his independence more, and decides what to do with his life. So yeah, it's 'charity' or kindness or something not-so-good-for-him(?) from Harry's side, but he (I think) was due to show some sort of advance for Malfoy, since he didn't exactly give him a lot of chances in school (he assumed Malfoy would be a Death Eater and didn't even try to stop him!)

So it's a question of people having different personal journeys/quests and not being at the same place in their lives... and then eventually they can meet in the middle, because they're drawn together and maybe it's just sex or maybe it's more, but whatever it is, they want to find out, or something. Like, it's a process rather than a given, y'know? And Snape could 'blossom' or become worthy over time, also-- and who knows what kind of person he'd become if given the right chance and motivation? We don't know.

You're right about people 'matching' with people in their own 'range', but this is all ideal-matching stuff that doesn't take the real-life imbalances in relationships into account. Mind you, I like balances in relationships, but you can claim that a lot of Great Romances were imbalanced, if anything because women were sociologically/societally/developmentally stilted in the long-ago, so really they wouldn't necessarily be great for conversation to a well-educated knight/prince/whatever. And you could make the case that in a relationship like Tsukasa/Tsukushi, Tsukasa wasn't 'worthy' at first, and only became worthy, but Tsukushi crushed at him from the beginning, back when he was a total prick.

I think if you have feelings for someone, in other words, you see/judge them differently~:)

From:

cellia.livejournal.com

that is only the the story of how Draco became a Death Eater and it wasn't really okay, but he learned his lesson.

I think I missed where it was shown that he learned. I got a feeling more like resignation and sulking at the end, not a desire to fix mistakes.

So yeah, it's 'charity' or kindness or something not-so-good-for-him(?) from Harry's side, but he (I think) was due to show some sort of advance for Malfoy, since he didn't exactly give him a lot of chances in school (he assumed Malfoy would be a Death Eater and didn't even try to stop him!)

*cries anytime Harry is blamed for Draco's choices* One of my biggest pet peeves. Not actually looming large in the story itself, but this comment reminded me of this idea I keep seeing in H/Dish things, and it bugs me man.

Like, Harry didn't do "enough" for Draco. It all seems of a piece to me with the thinking that Draco is a prat because Harry didn't shake his hand. It seems like you're implying that in this story, despite the fact that they're sleeping together, Harry should have realized that Draco was still hating enough to join an organization with a top goal of killing him. And he should have stopped Draco somehow.

I mean, it would have been nice, but... Draco's morality and decisions... not Harry's responsibility. Forget being fair to Harry, it's not fair to Draco. It makes him a charity case and a child. Although I guess that's kind of your point--Draco's too childish at that point to make a good decision. I still feel uneasy about the idea that because Draco's too immature, Harry has to step up and take care of it...

But I'm getting all entangled. My issues with the logic/reality/ethical universe might ultimately not be important in you making a good piece of fiction. After all, I think I was reading comments awhile ago where many people loved it and didn't seem to have my issues at all. People who know about writing. So. I might just be a little lone voice in the wilderness that everyone else is looking at like ???. My issues are real to me, but, I might be the only one seeing 'em. So as a writer you might need to ignore them. (writing is tough, as you can see that I really don't comprehend its mysterious ways)

But yeah, your Tsukasa/Tsukushi progression comment made me realize something. Maybe I just get more out of seeing the whole process of prick (or non-love relationship) to tolerable companion (love-relationship). And the Draco story didn't cover the whole arc, yet his partner didn't squash him down, but seemed gonzo for him at various points. Thus I get confused.

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Ahh! Resignation and sulking, you say! *mulls* Perhaps I'll have to fix that (more work!! ahahah but following your instincts/wants in terms of 'more resolving' so far has been Of The Good, so yes). I thought it was clear(er) that he was symbolically moving forward (like with the garden return/acceptance of Harry's presence/rose at his feet/crying-release-type-thing and his desire for a wand). But perhaps I should go less with the completely symbolic and more with the concrete, except having him say things about the future makes it more so that I have to -write- that future, unless they talked about the past.... hmmmm........

See, but the people who love it aren't useful to me. I need the fresh eye/different vision to bounce off of, which is why I so appreciate the stuff you've told me so far :D :D I don't want to write fics to please people (though that's a nice bonus)-- I generally just want to write the best story I can, and I trust (and often agree with or at least appreciate/want) your particular take on things just 'cause I dig how your brain works, y'know? Yesh. I'm not like a guru or anything. I like to be challenged to make things better :>

It was initially a love story, but it didn't want to go that way, so saying it's not, right now, is merely a statement of fact. It's more a Draco story-- his father and expectations of himself and relationships with people (more than just Harry, but especially Harry) and his (hopefully) sort of approach towards growth/self-knowledge. That's why I used all the Tarot metaphors....

I didn't mean it was Harry's -fault-, just that Harry used to be less than sensitive also, and had a growth through time where he was more ready for Draco..... but I dunno... I thought he was kinda smack-down-y there for a while.... 'gonzo', huh :D :D Before, you realize, he didn't want him -enough- :D :D *keeps trying, clearly*

I get the confusion/issue of it not covering the whole arc, but MY GODS WOMAN, THE WHOLE ARC = REALLY LONG, ARGH!!1 heh
I wanted to just get to a stopping point where they had hope/opportunity/possibility. That's usually where I end my longer fics. I think I just get tired and want to say 'well, they can take it from here'. My H/D get-together novella actually finishes its plot arc but leaves the relationship 'hanging', too, because I did what I meant to do and then it was like 'well, that's another story'. With THM, I initially wanted to do an H/D arc, but now it's more a Draco arc... with H/D as background. I think that's why I chose 'The Hanged Man' instead of 'The Fool', which is the card representing the whole Hero's Journey rather than just the aspect where he's trapped and has to learn the lesson of freedom-through-letting-go-of-control. In the end, this became a fic more about Draco letting go, somehow, and acceptance. Especially with the Hermione & Seamus scenes, anyway~:))

But personally, yeah, I want the whole arc in love-stories-- who wouldn't??

From:

cellia.livejournal.com

Well, I guess I just worry that just because I can point to something and complain doesn't mean I'm more right than people who loved the same thing. I mean, in my head, I'm right, but in terms of what makes a good story objectively... I feel completely unsure.

Basically, I am just trying to avoid blame if you go down a road you end up hating. :D

Here is some corniness that I believe: there are 2 parts to a mistake. The dumb thing you do, and then your attempt to make amends. Just being sorry doesn't do much for anyone, but is a step towards part2. So, it's obvious Draco was sorry here, but it seems mostly because his choices led to bad things for him--not because they were necessarily the wrong choices. And I didn't get even the glimmer of a desire to atone (or even if he thought it was necessary).

Hm. He's kinda following in Snape's footsteps, but without making any of the tough moral steps that Snape did.

Before, you realize, he didn't want him -enough-

>.< It's more like: Harry luvs Draco. But... why? I know love is strange and mysterious, and "why" can't always be answered, but all he seems to get is sex and abuse. That that makes him progress into "like" and then coupledom... it's believable, but seems to point more to self-destructive tendencies to be pitied (with Draco as the instrument of hurt) than any kind of meaningful interaction/connection between 2 people.

I have much love for seeing then whole arc, not that it's really necessary, but I guess I had problems seeing that this was the beginning of more, that the rest of the arc was implied. You may now decide between my denseness or story opaqueness as the reason. :D

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Hehehe you always have this angst-type-thing about that and I'm always like 'no! it's fine! really!' so like, I wonder if someone -has- blamed you for steering them into Eeeeevil. Or something. You realize I wouldn't, don't you? I wouldn't blame anyone for the way my story turned out, if anything because I only follow through on things if I feel they're 'right' somehow, myself. Y'know? It's like something bling-blings in my head and I'm all 'oh!!' and suddenly there's a lightbulb, etc.

With Draco & the atonement... yes. Except... I don't see Angel!Draco so much as Spike!Draco in the atonement dept.-- as in, what he did then is then, and what he is now is now. He always just does what seems 'right' to him and doesn't reason it out and think 'oh wait' and... well... think. Does he? He hasn't been thinking in THM, anyway, just kind of going on instinct. Also... what did he do, y'know? I made him a paper-pusher and he was coerced into that Muggle-girl torture thing, so I mean.... he wasn't the Big Bad or anything, and I don't think he killed anyone. However, I'm hoping that the new arclet where I show more of the why-the-Ministry-wants-him plot & him helping Hermione with that will go further towards the desire to help/atone/do better without making it too explicit....

Do you really think Draco abuses him more than Harry abuses Draco? I mean, Harry's the 'top' and all that... but yeah, I dig. I tried a bit to make it 'better' by expanding the school scenes, but I couldn't make it too 'happy' or Draco wouldn't have done the Death Eater thing, possibly. However, I'm gonna expand the snow scene... put it in context... but even so, yeah, the school thing -had- to be not-good-enough and then Harry wanted to use him and stop him from rotting in Azkaban & then they got a renewed sense of one another... I dunno if it's about 'luv' yet-- I mean, it could get there, but, it's not like... did it really seem like they had a normal stable 'relationship' thing? Draco didn't think so... I mean, Harry's flirting & all that so he seems to want more, but he's Harry so of course he wants more....

I don't think Draco hurts him post-Azkaban once they stopped yelling at each other, y'know? I didn't want to improve it too soon... it's a long hard road, etc. So I guess you want to see 'more' but the more would have to come past the end as it stands now, though, otherwise when would it have been better for them? I was just trying to be realistic given the events I saw happening, etc.... *mulls more* Gack, well. I'd need more -plot- for more follow-up, too :> *is also intimidated*

From:

malafede.livejournal.com

Actually my hugest pet-peeve is people making H/D All About Draco and His Growth, with this implying Harry has no issue of his own and it really offends me on his behalf, I think. I also am sort of baffled by people playing Harry against Draco to show how Harry shines because it's not really big feat to shine more than Draco. I mean, Draco's a selfish little monster, and Harry...

... means well, so what information does one get about Harry comparing him to Draco? It's not that because he's morally straighter than him that he's Nice Boy TM. Anyway, I also am peeved by people ignoring the imbalances between the characters, so our POVs are probably differently focused.

From:

malafede.livejournal.com

:/ People don't have to be "good enough" for other people... aren't they already? Even if it were true, I don't really think this factors a bit in romantic/sexual dynamics anyway.

From:

cellia.livejournal.com

Oh man, see, I completely disagree. (as always! >.<) We are not born so perfect that we deserve for the whole world to heap love upon us no matter what we do. Our family may love us no matter what, but it doesn't seem fair to expect the same of everyone else we meet.

I'm not saying that people have to be perfect for their partner. Just that one needs to match the other person somehow as a companion, as a person, not just as a stimulus/tool. (ie not just as something to redeem, something to hurt oneself, something to fuck, something to make one less lonely... )

So, I do think it factors in... if we're talking about a love relationship.

Not so much if it's plain lust, obsession, idealizing fantasy, masochism, pity, a pet-fix-em-up project, delusion etc etc

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

I do agree that not everyone should love us, of course. And that ideally, love should be 'pure & good' somehow, in a way it rarely is in real life. In reality, people call a lot of things 'love' that aren't very romantic, but it works for them, y'know, and it's what they want.... Of course, that doesn't make it 'really love', but it does make it 'good' if that's what they want.... Depending on how you look at it. 'Real love' is an ideal, while people always fall short of those....

But matching... yeah.
Matching can 'work' without love, though. There's also issues-matching, kinks-matching, needs-matching and so on. People 'fit' in the oddest, most unlikely of ways, it seems like. Also depends if that particular person is looking for 'companionate' type love-- it's only one of the many types, y'know. That sort of love tends to be based on friendship/respect/etc... but there are other kinds. It's hard to pin down, it seems to me.

If it helps, I don't think of THM (or any particular story, necessarily) as a justification for H/D, or a love-story, even. One could write about other things & still use a couple one thinks -can- or -should- be (at some point) in love without showing that, 'cause that isn't part of the arc, y'know? I think. My concept of justification-for-H/D fic is so high minded and difficult... I've just been procrastinating, really, but I'll be the first to admit that I've never really written what I see as an H/D -love- story. I tried with `Love for the Strong', but that was laughable, really, and my fanfic for DV10 was a cheat.... The only thing that comes close, really, is my H/D get-together novella, where both of them need each other and grow closer at about the same rate, but even that doesn't end with a full blown love-relationship anyway....

It's just. Really hard. Forget love-- I wanted THM to get past 'hate and need to destroy/ignore/react against all the time' ^^;;; I wanted to give them-- or really, just Draco-- a future of some sort. That was the goal, more than love, y'know?

From:

cellia.livejournal.com

Oh. I am dopey. I thought you were trying for a love story.

<---is stupid

From:

malafede.livejournal.com

people call a lot of things 'love' that aren't very romantic

But... that's the whole point. Real love isn't supposed to be "romantic". :/

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

I don't think I can -write- 'romantic' though... I like all forms of love. I'm like... er... very into romanticism in all its hokey and not-so-hokey forms. Besides, I actually find all forms of love 'romantic', unless there's no tender feeling there, and even then I'm there if there's passion involved of any kind. My definition of romance is admittedly my own. I don't like milque-toast romance, but then I don't like milque-toast anything. I do find that any actually felt passion is as 'real' as anything, even if it's not -traditional- (whatever -that- means... it could be debated, considering there are many traditions).

Come to think of it, THM!H/D is related to a certain tradition of redemptive love, maybe, even if I didn't transcribe it very well.

From:

malafede.livejournal.com

Oh, well, we probably agree. I meant love isn't an idealised more or less formulaic trope? :)

From:

malafede.livejournal.com

Well, of course I agree that you can evaluate the matching of two personalities - but it'd still not be something based on some inherent goodness some have and others don't. I mean, Harry's worth is equal to Draco's worth. People have the same dignity, as humans, and really the thought that some are considered less is incredibly depressing to me. The fact is that "loving" isn't an act based on calculations over what you could gain - what you gain is the person you fell in love with, and you don't fall in love with them for their niceness or fiber or whatever.

From:

cellia.livejournal.com

I think some people do fall in love because of niceness and moral fiber actually. (A story I've always liked: A woman saying that she realized she was in love when her boyfriend carefully saved a moth and set it free outside instead of killing it.) Different people need different things, but kindness and human sympathy is a pretty common need across the board.

I agree that love isn't based on a set of calculations you can do objectively, its all in the context of the 2 people and what they specifically need/want. Most people want to be with someone than can respect as a person though.

From:

malafede.livejournal.com

Shouldn't you respect everybody? :D

From:

cellia.livejournal.com

Haven't some people made choices and done things that make them unworthy of respect?

From:

malafede.livejournal.com

No.

(I think we are talking two different definitions of respect, though?)

From:

cellia.livejournal.com

Almost completely unrelated, but I was reading "The Storyteller" by Saki awhile ago and had the thought it might be right up your alley. If you haven't read it, it's here