~~ The Draco problem revisited (again!)

[reenka]

One reason I really can't stand a lot of the modern critical approach to fiction is because the process of framing a story in a rec/review often ruins it for me. I can't stand being made to see a story in a certain way, in terms of what it should mean, and I don't like it when the author themselves does it (because that's telling vs. showing), but I really hate it when a critic/reviewer's response to a piece is basically telling the reader how to respond by outlining that fic's emotional significance and general standing in relationship to other literature and various meta aspects of the field.

    I can't decide whether this makes me a 'bad' English major, or just really uptight.

I may love a story, but I need to retain a complex relationship to it-- I need to keep my own response fluid and unfettered, to keep any emotional significance at least partly submerged and unconscious, because as soon as it starts being used and compared to other readers' emotional responses, I feel it's being used against me.
    I genuinely believe that to really read with your whole brain, it's best to allow one's responses to occur-- emotional and intellectual-- without a built up context of outside, imposed meaning. It's almost dishonest that way, going into a story with expectations and needs that the story should either satisfy or leave empty. I feel that's putting too much of a weight on the reader's power and -their- needs rather than letting the story's intrinsic worth assert itself and win the reader over in whatever fashion.

This is why, partly, I do review directly-- give feedback to the author-- but I don't really review publically, with the intent to influence other readers. I may link to fics, but I cannot imagine that others' responses should be (could be?) anything like mine, or that others could or should see what I do in a fic. I know that this outside 'framing influence' would threaten to ruin my own chance at enjoyment, just because there will be that wall of expectation and pre-made analysis lying between me and the raw essence of the fic.

    With something like Shakespeare and other classics, I feel it's different because there are so many voices out there that it's a chorus, and no one opinion has to dominate. Similarly, I don't mind talking about HP, because there are simply so many people talking about the books in every which way. But in less 'public' works, I feel I need that privacy-- that sanctuary, that almost sacred bond between me and the text. A reviewer (when read pre-reading) becomes something like a voyeur, almost, their whispered words making me see things that may or may not be there. However, the real 'violation' of the one-on-one between me and the fic comes when the review aims to make me -feel- things that may or may not be there.

I'm not saying 'reviewing is bad and evil and should be stopped'-- god, that would be stupid-- I'm just saying that personally, a certain kind of review, which aims to critically frame the story in a certain emotional context, ruins the private pleasure of reading for me almost entirely. That's just me, though.
~~

I really want to stop talking about H/D. Perhaps I should join a twelve-step program: how to stop obsessing, for the Perpetually Brainwash Resistant. Hmmm. I did have plans to talk about whether it's better to write characters one loves or hates (see, a nice abstract subject). Woe. Am hopeless t00b.

Anyway, the question of 'can Harry love canon!Draco' has been bugging me the past few days. Basically... I don't think so (and am ambivalent about how I feel about that). Typical ice-prince fanon!Draco wouldn't fare much better though; if anything, I have an intuition that Harry would hate him -more- because he's just so larger than life and over-inflated and fire-retardant and all of that. I mean... sure, there are 'cool' people Harry likes in a distant sort of 'oh, right' manner (the twins, I guess), but his friends are rather 'normal' as far as he can tell, I think.


What I'm saying is, I don't agree that Harry needs to build up anyone he likes/loves on a pedestal, not entirely-- I do think he wants to admire and respect them, but that's different. I think he likes feeling like they're great (like Sirius-- it's not that there are -reasons- for him to be great, he just is, to Harry), but not being overwhelmed by someone's sheer haughty cold grandeur or whatever. Then again, the truth is, fanon!Draco is clearly a fantasy extrapolation of what canon!Draco wishes he was (but isn't), so the trick here would be to ask what -Harry- wants, not what -Draco- wants. Since I'm pretty sure Draco wouldn't mind being his fanon self, whereas Harry likes actual sincerity and what he sees as integrity in human beings, as long as it's not over the top dramatics like with Cho.

Sometimes I think it's hilarious that I go on about wanting to read what I could believe was 'canonish' Draco in fic, especially when I realized that I don't actually -ship- canon!Draco with Harry (who doesn't really have more than one version in my head). I imagine lots of other people feel the same, though they say they ship H/D.
    It's just very, VERY hard to write Harry wanting Draco (as is) convincingly, and not because of hate at all, but simply because Harry -disapproves- of Draco on a basic level. It's not that he loves or hates-- he just doesn't like him or respect him as a human being, I think. Draco is whiny, self-centered, probably clingy, nasty to people Harry likes & respects, weak and generally annoying in a thousand little ways. (This is Harry's pov, btw, not necessarily my own.)

So what to do? I'm starting to really feel like Harry wouldn't -like- Draco or accept him 'as is' (Ani DiFranco style) even if he -loved- and wanted to shag him senseless.
    Basically, 'the problem with Draco' isn't that he's a 'snarky bastard' or an 'asshole' or a 'bad boy'-- that, Harry could definitely get over and accept. He's not the 'Big Bad'-- he's the annoying prat who's as spoiled as Dudley, as loud as Colin Creevey, and as stupidly prejudiced as his bastard father. What, exactly, is Harry going to like? In canon, he's even -wittier- than Draco, as far as I can tell.

Most people agree that H/D is what one might call a 'fanon' rather than 'canon' pairing-- meaning that its basic premise is drawn from the characters' -potential- rather than their actual dynamic. So in a way, writing H/D fully 'true to canon', starting from 'the beginning' (as I like to see done) can be seen as a form of shooting oneself in the foot before one started to actually move.

So... canon!H/D is kind of a sad joke (from Harry's pov-- canon Draco, I'm semi-convinced wanks over Potter more than he cares to remember, but that's probably my kink talking). It's a really frustrating realization for an H/D writer: (what if) I don't ship H/D in canon at all??... And yes, I'm that much of a Harry ho, what can I say. As far as canon!Draco goes-- well, I'm sorry for him & sometimes find him cute & sometimes funny, and sometimes even admirable in a twisted way. Mostly, I think he's a pathetic wanker who needs to grow up. And yes, that's partly my inner!Harry speaking, but so it goes regardless. Malfoy needs to get a grip on something other than himself-- or perhaps I mean the opposite-- what Malfoy needs to finally get a grip on himself, but for real.

For 'convincing' H/D (funny how I say that since I'm a shipper, and we're supposed to be 'already convinced', but I'm just funny I guess), on some level one has little choice but to 'mess with' canon. It's just a question of doing it 'right', as far as this pairing goes. Essentially, it all revolves around moving Draco forward in his development to make Harry see him as more of an equal, because it seems to me that that's what Harry would want.

So I guess I understand the conundrum that drives all the rampant fics out there about cool-assed-Master-of-Slytherin!Draco. I mean, if he's -cool-, I guess one could say he 'deserves' Harry (which I personally have problems with as a concept). The issue, to me, isn't who 'deserves' whom, but rather what the people involved want and need from a partner and whether a particular relationship can fulfill their needs. The idea of canon!Draco fulfilling Harry's needs makes me laugh (meanly). I'm sorry, Malfoy. You know I love you, but. Yeah.

Basically, it's just that I think snarky-sexy-cool!Draco fics go way overboard but still vaguely in the 'right' direction for a successful relationship to develop (whatever -that- means-- I suppose to me, it means a fulfilling one) between Harry and Draco. And it's this need to somehow develop Draco that appears to make people think they've got a free ticket to change his whole personality, which is ridiculous. Also arguably JKR herself has done it, ahahah. Sorry, random snark.

All Draco really needs is a good measure of self-confidence and self-awareness (no small goals, of course), because his utter lack of those two things combine to ensure Harry will never change his mind about him, and Draco, for his part, will never be secure enough in his own status as an individual to see Potter as just another boy, albeit one he loves/wants. Anyway, not seeing Potter as the bane of his existence and the reason for all his failures would also help.

I freely admit all this is mostly nothing but a rehash of things I've said before, but I just think some of these concepts are finally -solidifying- (after all this time, too!) in my head into a coherent whole. I'm finally seeing Harry's all-important motivations here rather clearly-- and it's not a pretty picture. All this would probably only seem significant if you know just how elusive and fuzzy his characterization and 'stand' in their dynamic had generally been to me in my own writing.
    All those eons ago, I'd started out with a -way- vocal Draco muse which has almost completely dominated nearly all my H/D efforts, whether or not they were in Draco's pov. I -knew-, to the marrow of my bones, where my Draco was coming from, and Harry was sort of left to adjust and react (in one way or another) to his presence. It was always 'will Harry give in??' before, whereas now it's a more mutual problem, which might actually help my writing. Maybe.

I just realized that even if Harry 'gave in' and started a relationship with Draco, the deeper problem wouldn't be solved at all. Not if Draco remained a stupid whiny prat as far as Harry could see-- and love/lust doesn't necessarily have to mean seeing the person through rose-colored glasses, but especially in this case. *sigh*
    So yeah. It really is up to Draco; and I'm starting to appreciate the merits of the transition if Draco's step forward occurred before Harry 'noticed' him, because doing H/D and Draco-transformation -concurrently- is-- well, it's a nightmare. Uh, very difficult, I mean. Makes my poor brain huuuurrrrt. Well, until I give up and go read/write H/D porn, anyway.
~~

Also, because, it needs to be said: stellabelle wrote another hilarious H/D fic which made me snort & giggle & coo (alternatively, but sometimes at the same time). It is truly a Very Special Thing for a story to warm the cockles of my (dirty slapper!) heart just so. Awwwwwww. (I just can't take unfunny fluff, is all.)

See, the thing is-- I really don't have the emotional energy to read that much H/D anymore unless I 'trust' you as an author (and often even if I do). Even with the authors I adore... the 'H/D place' in my heart is... sore. I'm being careful, maybe, so I don't snap like I did this past winter and read -no- H/D for like, four months. stellabelle's fic is sort of... restorative in that regard. <3

Comments

[cellia.livejournal.com]

*whispers in your ear*

You know... one way to get over an addiction is to replace it with another. Many addicts turn to religion, but... Have you ever considered another pairing?

You know... canon!Zacharias is much like my favorite kind of fanon!Draco.


(I think that's why the poor guy doesn't get his fair share of slash, actually. Draco's already been built up for years in slashy fannish imagination to fill his slot. Hm, a search and replace would turn some entertaining, but OOC, Draco/Harry fics into nice Zacharias/Harry ones)

Have been v. busy w/ RL, but am back now *waves* trying to catch up on LJ thingys. Is it even worth it to respond to weeks'-old conversations though?

:D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, I was overreacting to RPing Harry with malafede, mostly. I really think if I stop with the H/D, I'll stop with the HP fandom-- I've always said that :> I mean, if anything, all the -writers- I feel like reading write H/D, too :>
Another fandom is a different story, and you remember my dalliance with Buffy & Star Trek & GW just this spring, right :> Heeeee. Mmmm, Heero/Duo smut. :9

Anyway, HI, you busy life-possessing person you!!1 *waves back & bounces* Ahahah search-and-replace, ahahah. Um. *coughs* But no, see, there's less angst ;))

Heheh feel free to respond to anything that pings you, as I love babbling back atchoo:D

[cellia.livejournal.com]

Blast! I was so hoping to seduce you to the dark side of a non-HD ship.

But, see, here is *my* favorite solution to the Harry not liking canon!Draco. Draco tries to take what he wants anyway. My near bullet-proof kink no matter how it's handled. Maybe he keeps him in a nice room with no sharp objects and a big bed, and Harry does his all-caps anger thing.... and I should probably not embarrass myself by going any further into this...

But no, see, there's less angst ;))

Dude. Half the H/D I've been reading lately, I feel like I could replace Draco w/ *Ron* or *Hermione*. I mean, he gets so friendly or so reasonable, and the whole Lucius problem goes away with a minor ripple or is never an issue. I *want* to be convinced, but so few stories seem to take my arguments/problems on. Or the author acknowledges the problems, but judges them unsurmountable, and I'm left with depressing dysfunctional!fic. ;_; So I am reduced to reading Harry/Ron or Snape/Harry, which maybe I am more emotionally suited for anyway... but a tiny part of me wants to believe in Harry/Draco, if for no other reason than imprinting.


:DD

dude. This having a life thing... so overrated. Have you ever been doing something that popular culture has assured you is cool and enjoyable (bar, date etc) and thought, "hm, would so much rather be reading bad ff.net fic"? I think I need to start gaming or something.

Just don't be surprised if you ever see me replying to long-forgotten posts at strange hours. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eh. Most H/D Sucks, I've always said that, you know that. ;))
I feel sad that I've writte that dysfunctional!fic you speak of; see, see, DE!Draco was never meant to be my convincing treatise fic... that was always the Riddle!ring novella... which I haven't touched since last year, but. Um. Anyway, I'm working on it :D I'm actually taking a Heroes & Villains class, so maybe that'll help. Honestly, it's Very Hard to get Draco to be sorry, and then there's the fact that my Draco muse just refuses to be cute when I write angstfic. I -can- write attractive Draco, I know I can, but. Sometimes he just leaves me :/ God, that sucks. You're like, exactly the sort of reader I want to please-- discriminating but romantic, practical and sympathetic to Harry, who wants to believe but needs a good fic to do so. That's the Ideal Audience any ship writer could want, seriously, as far as I'm concerned :D

Hehehe tell me more!! I might very well write it ;)) I have no shame or even squicks, all that much, when it comes to H/D, except that dom!Draco bothers me, though I don't care if he tops. I like him all desperate and cunning-yet-pathetic, though :D The only problem is that my Harry is VERY stubborn (he takes after me), and if you compared his bull-headedness to Draco's... I really don't know who'd win. Um. Though he has this thing where he's really horny, too :)) I do have to say that I can't stand `Weather of the Heart', but it wasn't the theme or characterization, even, so much as the handling and the way it turned into fluff, etcetc.

You go to bars??? Ahahahahah. I can see it, though :D I've never not enjoyed hanging out with people if they were my friends and wanted to read fic instead, hahah. If anything, I babble fandom at people anyway :D Because... I just have no shame. You do sound like you need to do more geeky things :> Non-geeky things do seem draining... but then I wouldn't know 'cause I actually never take off my geek hat ^^;;;

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I mean, he gets so friendly or so reasonable, and the whole Lucius problem goes away with a minor ripple or is never an issue.

This so makes me want to let you read the me/Reena RPG. Okay, it came out all wrong, because I tend to roll my eyes at people saying "oh, read my stuff, it will convince you character A/ship B/situation C". Ahaha, but I know for sure Draco's not reasonable or friendly at all. He hates that Potter fraud. He just can't stop going close. How can he resist, what the fuck, that brainless porn-addicted idiot deserves to get as angry as he is. And cry his face off. He put his Dad in prison! He bloody put his Dad in prison.

I am just curious if you'd find it in character or palatable.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Have you ever been doing something that popular culture has assured you is cool and enjoyable (bar, date etc) and thought, "hm, would so much rather be reading bad ff.net fic"?

Have you ever gone to a date with a decent guy and thought exactly the same? Ahaha. <3 Sorry if I was so... aggressive yesterday, all this RPing with Reena is messing with my mind. I AM NOT DRACO MALFOY! IF HARRY - I MEAN REENA - SAYS HARRY CAN'T LOVE ME - I MEAN DRACO - HE'S NOT TALKING ABOUT ME------

Sorry. I am such a skizophrenic ass sometimes.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

It really is up to Draco

The fact that he would think so and be so blindly sure that he was right is actually the problem with Harry. Not that Draco is not a prat and a disgusting little freak in his own way - but Harry's so intolerant and, you know what?, merciless and unforgiving in a very Snape-like way. Ahaha, I don't want to start a discussion, really. There was just... someone... who wanted to say.

And I am the one who keeps feeling the reason why (I, personally, the way I am and the kind of moral/cultural/social background I have, and God I hope that was disclaimer enough) I am not interested in fanon!Harry/Draco a lot (which might be why I can't see myself reading H/Z fics, like, in a millennium) is that
it feels so bland. It's like, I dunno, with the kind of love I think their canon counterpart could have after a long travel of hate and bad blood, I really feel very meh at easier solutions. It's like, it's probably my love for the monster: I don't care about loving an upstanding citizen when I can see how two people so complex and unsafe can come to love each other in a way that feels so revolutionary. Love isn't admiration, anyway.

(I am at work and cannot answer emails, but will as soon as I get home.)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Okay, can't let go really. This whole obsessive rabidness thing... I'm sure it's very recognisable.

But: he's the annoying prat who's as spoiled as Dudley, as loud as Colin Creevey, and as stupidly prejudiced as his bastard father.

What's so bad about being annoying? And a prat? And loud? And... you mentioned drama queenness at some point. It's just - this is not even about H/D anymore, but the way people single this stuff out just depresses me. Because being prejudiced is bad and disgusting, and I thought what was funny about JennyO's rant about the subject were the denials afterwards. Because the correct way to answer to that wasn't: HE ISN'T! Because he clearly is, and should atone for it. But I just keep thinking, yes he is, but he should be recovered, not terminated.

But, okay, alright, disgust at Draco's racism is understandable actually, but what's so wrong about him being sulky and bratty and loud and A DRAMA QUEEN? Are drama queens subhuman, or something? Because while someone as rabid and delusional as Draco clearly has a problem, being loud and over-the-top per se is just another side of humanity, and sincerely the way some people go on about how lame this spoiled brat is and how much he needs the fanon makes me just lose any desire to read their fic. Then again I am not addicted to H/D fics as you are, and I have issues with the rejection of unshiny sides of humanity that preceed my issue with the Harry superiority trip at melodrama.

Because YOU KNOW THAT DEEP DOWN, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE POTTER WHO IS SLAVERY.

[cellia.livejournal.com]

To me, it's not that Draco is so awful that he's brush-asideable as a human... just that--as he stands now in canon--he seems like he'd make a rather unpleasant and un-complementary companion to Harry in many basic ways.

This doesn't make Draco without worth as a person; "Would he be a good boyfriend/valiant ally/life companion/meaningful tryst in regards to Harry" isn't the ultimate test of humanity. It is meaningful, though, when I start thinking about Harry/Draco.

Potter as slavery:
It seems to me that most of the things you hate about Harry are just as present in Draco, so I get confused. For example:"intolerant."

Of course, the text isn't asking us to sympathize with Draco, but... so? Hm, I guess it makes your feelings toward the kids feel to me more like backlash against JKR than a result of their actions in the reality we're given... like it's the meta that's making you annoyed with the character, not the text. And that 1. is too intellectual and deep for me and 2.seems unfair to judge the kids (I mean as people, not characters) through the lens of their author/god's opinions.

(She hasn't shown her hand so badly for me that her characters exist as cardboard cutout roles for her morality plays... yet. So Draco is not just the embodiment of the spoiled, small-minded scion and Harry is not just the embodiment of the self-righteous establishment hero. Which is why I still like the nerdy HP discussion which tries to take JKR's connotations out of the story and judge what one can from the "facts." Subvert her by taking her at her word and then banishing her from the equation, rather than going in the opposite direction from her apparent intentions, I guess. Option #2 will always bother me because it so often has all the exact same flaws, just the unreasonable unfairness and favoritism by the author is switched around.)

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Ack, the "Potter is slavery" thing (as basically half of my post anyway) was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, or rather, really a kind of self-deprecating (... Draco-deprecating) humour. Because me and Reena have been... RP-ing lately and that's such a Draco-thing to say, though obviously it's not true for any sane person. Unless you go veryveryvery meta and a bit Mulder-like. ;P I think I forgot other people couldn't get the inside jokes. Sorry if that was annoying, it was entirely unintentional.

Would he be a good boyfriend/valiant ally/life companion/meaningful tryst in regards to Harry

I completely get this. It's good to talk about chemistry and actualy compatibility. Though in that respect I'd have to say I think Draco and Harry are pretty much matched in a way that's actually cosmic to me. The way they are so ying/yang both in literal (emotional/psychological) and meta (ethical/social/political) terms is kind of obvious to me, although I am biased because I prefer strange non-dramatic themes (like the foil, the irritant, the boyhero who is also a bit of an antihero in a way), so for me their being matched is strictly dependant on the way it's so important, for me, for them to be actually so abnormal, and have a kind of love that can be healthy, but not healthy like the meanstream healthy that's pushed down our throats all the time by fiction and the media.

Err, okay, I am too invested to sound also... sane, right now. And obviously we have different (both valid) platforms that make us see Draco in a different light as a "matched/satisfying" companion to Harry. I just think there's such drive to be both dark and judgmental in Harry that sometimes I feel for him to explore both those sides of himself (that are actually interdependant in my mind) there could be nobody but Draco.

... I also thinks it just cracks me up to put the Irritant with the Hero. It makes me feel so vindicated. Not even on behalf of the Irritant or on behalf of the Hero, but on behalf of human beings all around the world that are tired of being turned into stereotypes ad judged on the basis of that.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oh! I also wanted to add... that I don't "judge" Harry when I say he is intolerant. Just like I don't judge Draco when I say he is a racist. I just think they both have flaws...? And I am very invested in those, and I love the both of them, so it would never mean, coming from me, a "this person should be terminated" kind of dismissal.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

I think the drama-queen bit was actually:

not over the top dramatics like with Cho.

But then I found Harry to be over the top dramatic one in OotP, so...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

But then I found Harry to be over the top dramatic one in OotP, so...

Hey! He's a MARKED MAN!!

*whistles spaghetti western theme for Harry*

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Oh, Draco's much more over-dramatic than Cho. This is probably why I got confused.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

(This is partly in reply to your last email saying that Draco loves unconditionally whereas Harry doesn't, because um, gmail died, so....)
Perhaps it's the word 'love' that bothers me, because Harry and Draco have such different definitions of it, and when I write from Harry's pov, I use Harry's definition (i.e., you have to have a reason of some sort), and when I write from Draco's pov, I don't even -think- in terms of love or approval or whatever, and I just write unhealthy obsession/need/rage/hate which spirals and feeds on itself. My Draco doesn't -love- Potter 'cause that wouldn't encompass all the wildly contradictory and unnameable emotions/impulses in him. It's like, my Draco doesn't hate or love so cleanly, not with Potter-- his hate doesn't go away-- he always kind of mistrusts/dislikes/resents Potter, and Harry feels the same conflict though it means something different to him. They're never 'at ease', emotionally, in my head. I think yes, Draco does love his father/mother unconditionally, but... he feels safe with them, and I can't imagine Harry wanting to allow Draco that safety. So their relationship is always 'on the edge'-- of destruction, dissolution, hatred, explosion-- in my head.

I love Silvia's `And I Get By', because it showed, finally, that Harry can like(!) Draco because he's nasty and funny in a mean way and just-- different than his friends. But see, the thing is, that Draco didn't love or 'give in' to Harry-- he always kept him on his toes, always taunted him and refused to let Harry feel smug. He was like a gleeful little insect, but Harry smiled at him because they understood each other on some level. And that's what I want-- that understanding. I want it more than love, even, because love seems so -placid- and accepting, and I don't care about acceptance so much as I care about conflict and eventual resolution-- that arc-- which isn't meant to make Harry or Draco happy-- which is just meant to explore their dynamic and personalities in an interesting way.

I do think that Draco and Harry have the potential for love/understanding if they unlock it, but in order to unlock it, they would need a key, and if you take them 'as is', there isn't that key -there-.



I do think Draco thinks Mudbloods and Mudblood-lovers etc are 'wrong' and not just 'hurts'. He rationalizes things, doesn't he? God, I just want him to grow up, because this sort of infantilism really doesn't work with the Harry in my head, y'know?

Anyway, people one finds annoying-- um... depends -how- one finds them annoying, as far as romantic tension goes. Tsukushi found Tsukasa a Really Annoying Asshole, but he was the sort of person who grew on you and then you saw his 'other sides' and that he wasn't -just- an annoying self-centered asshole, but actually someone who needed a kick in the pants and/or love and who was willing to change/become what Tsukushi needed/wanted/etc. So I guess he remained annoying (to whoever else would've thought that about him), but he -changed- towards Tsukushi, slowly but surely, and their whole dynamic was different. It's like, a question of what side you see of someone, I think, but if the person remains 'annoying' and that's all, it's almost impossible to overcome that sort of gut-level repulsion. I wasn't making up very good insults, btw, 'cause really I suck at insults. I'm sure Harry could come up with better descriptors of him :>

I don't think Harry thinks he should be terminated-- he doesn't even think Lucius should be terminated. Draco is so over the top-- of course if Potter doesn't like him, he wants him DEAD. Heh.
I don't mind over-the-topness, but it bothers some people on a basic level, y'know-- just incompatible personality traits, not that it's a Bad Trait-- we're just talking about compatibility here, not judging objective worth. I mean. I'd never do that.

I do think he needs to be developed-- so does Harry-- but then, that's why I write fanfic in the first place, to play with their development. Heheh.
(Because YOU KNOW DEEP DOWN, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MALFOY, WHO IS WANK. *leers* AND NO I DON'T SPY ON YOU, ALL I NEED IS A WHIFF OF YOU DURING PRACTICE, AHAHAHAH.)

Also, it really kind of boggles my mind how I tend to agree with both you & Alice & SM at once o_0

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think I feel the same way about reviews--the few times I've reviewed something for "a public" I usually just try to give them an idea of what's there so they can figure out if they'll like it.

On Harry loving Canon!Draco...s'funny, but I have no problem imagining it. I don't see it as fated or anything, but to me it seems like they're both jerks in different ways and they could easily grow up into wiser men that might have things in common. Sure Harry thinks Draco's all dismissable and a big nothing, but then isn't that what's supposed to be so dreadful about Draco too, that he judges people that way?

Thing is, I agree Harry doesn't need to put someone up on a pedestal...that's not what he does. His friends are almost self-consciously chosen for not being on a pedestal. He likes Ron because they bond over being losers in life that first day, Hermione's got no friends and is pretty hard to take sometimes, Hagrid's a big oaf who needs Harry's help to teach. He doesn't much like anybody in the DA either. (In fact, speaking of minor irritants, that's Zacharias to me as well: "Hi, I'm here to provide minor but ultimately harmless conflict so that Harry can be shown to be learning to get along with difficult people without really having to and to fool careless readers into thinking I'm the traitor!") What he does do, I think, is once he's friends with them he feels badly about being irritated with them and so becomes doubly protective of them and won't hear about their flaws. That, I guess, is what he thinks friends do. So he LOVES that Ron is sometimes kind of hapless and has to struggle and doesn't get what he wants...but when Ron starts irritating him about it he feels guilty and must like him even more because of those things. He gets angry when Hagrid makes him uncomfortable as a teacher so loudly proclaims he's great. It's kind of a different thing--and sort of endearing.

So when it comes to Draco it doesn't really seem like a problem. Draco's full of flaws and insecurities and humiliations. If something happened that made Harry actually like him those would become more acceptable--in fact, and maybe this is what's interesting about H/D--it would be more interesting because with Draco Harry really couldn't realistically go into hyper-protective "I will not hear a bad thing about him!" mode, because he's already there himself. I can easily see them being able to talk to each other and all that. If Harry can be friends with Hermione, which I find to be an even bigger stretch, he could talk to a Malfoy he didn't hate.

He's more of a challenge than some other characters because he's so irritating--and he is irritating. I've never yet bought the story that Harry really doesn't care about Draco at all. Granted he gets distracted by larger concerns, but Draco's still the only kid his age that really makes him angry and gets his attention and gives him satisfaction when he's hurt. Harry, after all, is all about indifference. When Harry's indifferent he doesn't act like he does to Draco, by making a point of ignoring him until he snaps and flies at him. When Harry's indifferent you know it because he doesn't know your name, or realize you've been in class with you for years. Harry's indifferent to most kids at Hogwarts. Draco's never been one of them. If Draco weren't in Slytherin Harry would probably feel much the same about it as he does about Ravenclaw--iow, not at all, except for perhaps the occasional eerie thought about that being Voldemort's house. He'd still be dislike it as a house, but I doubt he'd hate it the way he does.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I... I was just going to say that, serious.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

You know, if you and magpie ever team up, the fandom doesn't stand a chance.

<3

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Yeah... maybe... when I am sure... they aren't out... to get me, you know?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I was just lost in Harry's pov, man. That's why I emphasized that I was talking about canon!Draco, because in this case neither of them -has- 'grown up', so there are no short-cuts. I do always believe that if one or the other (or really, both) of them changed, then a relationship is possible-- I'm just talking about 'as is', I guess, because me & malafede have been RPing, and her Draco loves Harry 'as is', and my Harry -can't- love Draco 'as is' without either changing himself, or Draco changing. Of course, that's really the whole point of H/D, to me...

That's the crux-- if something happened. Well, in canon, nothing -has- happened. Y'know? So every story has to make something convincing happen, and that 'thing' doesn't just -exist- in my head or anything-- it's always a different... 'thing' that happens. But there needs to be a 'thing'. But without that event, do I ship/want them together? Well, I don't know! I love H/D friendship, you know that-- and I love Silvia's `And I Get By', where Harry loves/enjoys the mean unsavory things about Malfoy because they appeal to something in him, and he sees the humor/attraction to Malfoy's crooked little world. I wasn't ever saying Harry doesn't care-- I was saying Harry doesn't approve, and that's my inner Harry telling me, rather than me telling whoever, y'know? I never said Harry's indifferent. He thinks Malfoy is disgusting, vile, pathetic, stupid-looking and also he kind of SMELLS BAD. Y'know. Like I said, my Harry muse has been loud :>

As I wrote to malafede, I don't know what else to say, really, except that in 'normal' stories, we'd have... y'know, developed them concurrently, y'know... so that I wouldn't have 5th-year!Harry mixed up with 6&7th-year!year Harry in a big mess.... It's like, Harry needs some -impetus- to see Draco differently, and the 'way' is there in -my- head, but not in Harry's ('cause the particular story isn't written yet to guide him), so he has no -way- to really understand, see what I mean? They need a journey, a way to discover who they and the other really -are-. I can't just pretend (through Harry) that I've already made that journey.

Which is this whole post was ill-conceived and pretty pointless and misguided, so I locked it. I was lost in Harry and forgot about the journey... which was stupid, since that's the whole point, really, what was I think? But Harry doesn't know about the journey, that's all meta....

Point is, Draco doesn't love Harry 'yet' except in some very meta sense, y'know? and of course Harry doesn't love Draco. It's their journey to love that's the point, impossible and thorny and painful and exasperating as it is. *sigh* So even though Harry can love Draco 'if', etcetc, it doesn't help the point is that neither of them can love the other 'as is', y'know? Meh. I'm overdosing again, methinks.

[strawberry-chik.livejournal.com]

Hmm... Can Harry love Draco canonically?
I think...yes. Lemme see if I can give you my reasons in a short answer. Well *thinks hard*, actually, you know, I think it's easier for DRACO to canonically love Harry first. Because he was friendly towards him in book one, in the very beginning. Remember M. Malkins shop. He was making small talk and all, when I read that passage I figured he liked Harry, although Harry didn't like him back. Same thing in the train, and of course there's the whole jealousy-I-hate-you-Weasel-because-you're-his-friend-and-I-get-rejected thing. Very slashy he he he. I always feel heartbroken for Draco in that scene (his hand oustretched... Harry not taking it...oh teh pain!).
So, I guess if something happens to make up for all the anger that rejection has created (and the throwing-Father-in-prison thing) I guess all the ice would melt at once and Draco would love Harry again! Squeeeee !!!! * err..sorry about that*
As for Harry loving Draco, that's a lot harder, but possible because he's a love-starved person, isn't he? I don't see him rejecting deep, sincere love and adoration from a repented!redeemed!Draco. That is, if he's gay.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, but... my point wasn't about Draco at all. I always assumed quite readily that Draco is obsessed with/in love with/in hate with Harry-- who cares (well, I do, but). I -was- talking about canon!Draco as compared to redeemed!Draco, so in terms of this conundrum, redeemed!Draco is irrelevant, really. I was excluding Draco's pov from my judgment (which isn't very fair, but I was basically talking about Harry's motivations alone). Harry's love-starved, yeah, but he's also rather judgmental, isn't he. And his judgment of Draco is, he's a twat, end of story :>

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

personally, a certain kind of review, which aims to critically frame the story in a certain emotional context, ruins the private pleasure of reading for me almost entirely.

Now I am stricken with the phobia that you are talking about me whether or not this has any basis in fact or not, and will be on my merry way to cringe in a corner. However, as this is surely karmic paranoiaic justice for my part in perpetuating the anonymous meme, I will not complain. Just cringe.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, since this is friendslocked... um... I was mostly talking about someone (http://www.livejournal.com/users/switchknife) else, though... a lot of it is just how I emotionally respond to advertising, y'know what I mean? On the one hand, it works to sell things, but on the other hand and it might not even be 'false' advertising on the part of the creators in that no act of deception is involved, but it acts as one since the very purpose of a certain kind of rhetoric is to influence the process of forming opinions.... Which is always going to make me uber-wary.

I was trying not to point fingers on purpose though, 'cause I didn't want to make it a personal issue, y'know? It just really gets to me in general :>

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

a lot of it is just how I emotionally respond to advertising, y'know what I mean? On the one hand, it works to sell things, but on the other hand and it might not even be 'false' advertising on the part of the creators in that no act of deception is involved, but it acts as one since the very purpose of a certain kind of rhetoric is to influence the process of forming opinions....

since this is friends-locked, and no one is looking, I'll add that I, too, have issues with the way they rec, but I've never looked at such recs from the perspective of another reccer's opinion influencing how I read. Even though I certainly agree that it can. I think I've mentioned before that the single most difficult thing for me about reccing and coming up with any workable system that I liked for recs was knowing *how* to rec something *to* a certain audience. Because with certain audiences to me I would use a certain kind of rhetoric, because I have a sense that that's what they're expecting; but what I want more than anything is to be objective and balanced about a fic, except when I'm squeeing. The Squee Rec is a horse of a different color, I think. And I think that while Switch and I, and you to some extent, all do a lot of Squee Recs, we all know those aren't really about being objective. If I do a Squee Rec about something I've gotten to the point where I at least try to rec it again later more seriously. But it's still something I work on.

And, hot damn but you've got a lot of replies to this post. I had hopes of reading through them all at some point. I'll put it on my to-do list right after "buy a sailboat" and "pay off college loans."