~~ The Draco problem revisited (again!)
Sep. 10th, 2004 03:29 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaOne reason I really can't stand a lot of the modern critical approach to fiction is because the process of framing a story in a rec/review often ruins it for me. I can't stand being made to see a story in a certain way, in terms of what it should mean, and I don't like it when the author themselves does it (because that's telling vs. showing), but I really hate it when a critic/reviewer's response to a piece is basically telling the reader how to respond by outlining that fic's emotional significance and general standing in relationship to other literature and various meta aspects of the field.
I can't decide whether this makes me a 'bad' English major, or just really uptight.
I may love a story, but I need to retain a complex relationship to it-- I need to keep my own response fluid and unfettered, to keep any emotional significance at least partly submerged and unconscious, because as soon as it starts being used and compared to other readers' emotional responses, I feel it's being used against me.
I genuinely believe that to really read with your whole brain, it's best to allow one's responses to occur-- emotional and intellectual-- without a built up context of outside, imposed meaning. It's almost dishonest that way, going into a story with expectations and needs that the story should either satisfy or leave empty. I feel that's putting too much of a weight on the reader's power and -their- needs rather than letting the story's intrinsic worth assert itself and win the reader over in whatever fashion.
This is why, partly, I do review directly-- give feedback to the author-- but I don't really review publically, with the intent to influence other readers. I may link to fics, but I cannot imagine that others' responses should be (could be?) anything like mine, or that others could or should see what I do in a fic. I know that this outside 'framing influence' would threaten to ruin my own chance at enjoyment, just because there will be that wall of expectation and pre-made analysis lying between me and the raw essence of the fic.
With something like Shakespeare and other classics, I feel it's different because there are so many voices out there that it's a chorus, and no one opinion has to dominate. Similarly, I don't mind talking about HP, because there are simply so many people talking about the books in every which way. But in less 'public' works, I feel I need that privacy-- that sanctuary, that almost sacred bond between me and the text. A reviewer (when read pre-reading) becomes something like a voyeur, almost, their whispered words making me see things that may or may not be there. However, the real 'violation' of the one-on-one between me and the fic comes when the review aims to make me -feel- things that may or may not be there.
I'm not saying 'reviewing is bad and evil and should be stopped'-- god, that would be stupid-- I'm just saying that personally, a certain kind of review, which aims to critically frame the story in a certain emotional context, ruins the private pleasure of reading for me almost entirely. That's just me, though.
~~
I really want to stop talking about H/D. Perhaps I should join a twelve-step program: how to stop obsessing, for the Perpetually Brainwash Resistant. Hmmm. I did have plans to talk about whether it's better to write characters one loves or hates (see, a nice abstract subject). Woe. Am hopeless t00b.
Anyway, the question of 'can Harry love canon!Draco' has been bugging me the past few days. Basically... I don't think so (and am ambivalent about how I feel about that). Typical ice-prince fanon!Draco wouldn't fare much better though; if anything, I have an intuition that Harry would hate him -more- because he's just so larger than life and over-inflated and fire-retardant and all of that. I mean... sure, there are 'cool' people Harry likes in a distant sort of 'oh, right' manner (the twins, I guess), but his friends are rather 'normal' as far as he can tell, I think.
What I'm saying is, I don't agree that Harry needs to build up anyone he likes/loves on a pedestal, not entirely-- I do think he wants to admire and respect them, but that's different. I think he likes feeling like they're great (like Sirius-- it's not that there are -reasons- for him to be great, he just is, to Harry), but not being overwhelmed by someone's sheer haughty cold grandeur or whatever. Then again, the truth is, fanon!Draco is clearly a fantasy extrapolation of what canon!Draco wishes he was (but isn't), so the trick here would be to ask what -Harry- wants, not what -Draco- wants. Since I'm pretty sure Draco wouldn't mind being his fanon self, whereas Harry likes actual sincerity and what he sees as integrity in human beings, as long as it's not over the top dramatics like with Cho.
Sometimes I think it's hilarious that I go on about wanting to read what I could believe was 'canonish' Draco in fic, especially when I realized that I don't actually -ship- canon!Draco with Harry (who doesn't really have more than one version in my head). I imagine lots of other people feel the same, though they say they ship H/D.
It's just very, VERY hard to write Harry wanting Draco (as is) convincingly, and not because of hate at all, but simply because Harry -disapproves- of Draco on a basic level. It's not that he loves or hates-- he just doesn't like him or respect him as a human being, I think. Draco is whiny, self-centered, probably clingy, nasty to people Harry likes & respects, weak and generally annoying in a thousand little ways. (This is Harry's pov, btw, not necessarily my own.)
So what to do? I'm starting to really feel like Harry wouldn't -like- Draco or accept him 'as is' (Ani DiFranco style) even if he -loved- and wanted to shag him senseless.
Basically, 'the problem with Draco' isn't that he's a 'snarky bastard' or an 'asshole' or a 'bad boy'-- that, Harry could definitely get over and accept. He's not the 'Big Bad'-- he's the annoying prat who's as spoiled as Dudley, as loud as Colin Creevey, and as stupidly prejudiced as his bastard father. What, exactly, is Harry going to like? In canon, he's even -wittier- than Draco, as far as I can tell.
Most people agree that H/D is what one might call a 'fanon' rather than 'canon' pairing-- meaning that its basic premise is drawn from the characters' -potential- rather than their actual dynamic. So in a way, writing H/D fully 'true to canon', starting from 'the beginning' (as I like to see done) can be seen as a form of shooting oneself in the foot before one started to actually move.
So... canon!H/D is kind of a sad joke (from Harry's pov-- canon Draco, I'm semi-convinced wanks over Potter more than he cares to remember, but that's probably my kink talking). It's a really frustrating realization for an H/D writer: (what if) I don't ship H/D in canon at all??... And yes, I'm that much of a Harry ho, what can I say. As far as canon!Draco goes-- well, I'm sorry for him & sometimes find him cute & sometimes funny, and sometimes even admirable in a twisted way. Mostly, I think he's a pathetic wanker who needs to grow up. And yes, that's partly my inner!Harry speaking, but so it goes regardless. Malfoy needs to get a grip on something other than himself-- or perhaps I mean the opposite-- what Malfoy needs to finally get a grip on himself, but for real.
For 'convincing' H/D (funny how I say that since I'm a shipper, and we're supposed to be 'already convinced', but I'm just funny I guess), on some level one has little choice but to 'mess with' canon. It's just a question of doing it 'right', as far as this pairing goes. Essentially, it all revolves around moving Draco forward in his development to make Harry see him as more of an equal, because it seems to me that that's what Harry would want.
So I guess I understand the conundrum that drives all the rampant fics out there about cool-assed-Master-of-Slytherin!Draco. I mean, if he's -cool-, I guess one could say he 'deserves' Harry (which I personally have problems with as a concept). The issue, to me, isn't who 'deserves' whom, but rather what the people involved want and need from a partner and whether a particular relationship can fulfill their needs. The idea of canon!Draco fulfilling Harry's needs makes me laugh (meanly). I'm sorry, Malfoy. You know I love you, but. Yeah.
Basically, it's just that I think snarky-sexy-cool!Draco fics go way overboard but still vaguely in the 'right' direction for a successful relationship to develop (whatever -that- means-- I suppose to me, it means a fulfilling one) between Harry and Draco. And it's this need to somehow develop Draco that appears to make people think they've got a free ticket to change his whole personality, which is ridiculous. Also arguably JKR herself has done it, ahahah. Sorry, random snark.
All Draco really needs is a good measure of self-confidence and self-awareness (no small goals, of course), because his utter lack of those two things combine to ensure Harry will never change his mind about him, and Draco, for his part, will never be secure enough in his own status as an individual to see Potter as just another boy, albeit one he loves/wants. Anyway, not seeing Potter as the bane of his existence and the reason for all his failures would also help.
I freely admit all this is mostly nothing but a rehash of things I've said before, but I just think some of these concepts are finally -solidifying- (after all this time, too!) in my head into a coherent whole. I'm finally seeing Harry's all-important motivations here rather clearly-- and it's not a pretty picture. All this would probably only seem significant if you know just how elusive and fuzzy his characterization and 'stand' in their dynamic had generally been to me in my own writing.
All those eons ago, I'd started out with a -way- vocal Draco muse which has almost completely dominated nearly all my H/D efforts, whether or not they were in Draco's pov. I -knew-, to the marrow of my bones, where my Draco was coming from, and Harry was sort of left to adjust and react (in one way or another) to his presence. It was always 'will Harry give in??' before, whereas now it's a more mutual problem, which might actually help my writing. Maybe.
I just realized that even if Harry 'gave in' and started a relationship with Draco, the deeper problem wouldn't be solved at all. Not if Draco remained a stupid whiny prat as far as Harry could see-- and love/lust doesn't necessarily have to mean seeing the person through rose-colored glasses, but especially in this case. *sigh*
So yeah. It really is up to Draco; and I'm starting to appreciate the merits of the transition if Draco's step forward occurred before Harry 'noticed' him, because doing H/D and Draco-transformation -concurrently- is-- well, it's a nightmare. Uh, very difficult, I mean. Makes my poor brain huuuurrrrt. Well, until I give up and go read/write H/D porn, anyway.
~~
Also, because, it needs to be said:![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
stellabelle wrote another hilarious H/D fic which made me snort & giggle & coo (alternatively, but sometimes at the same time). It is truly a Very Special Thing for a story to warm the cockles of my (dirty slapper!) heart just so. Awwwwwww. (I just can't take unfunny fluff, is all.)
See, the thing is-- I really don't have the emotional energy to read that much H/D anymore unless I 'trust' you as an author (and often even if I do). Even with the authors I adore... the 'H/D place' in my heart is... sore. I'm being careful, maybe, so I don't snap like I did this past winter and read -no- H/D for like, four months.stellabelle's fic is sort of... restorative in that regard. <3
I can't decide whether this makes me a 'bad' English major, or just really uptight.
I may love a story, but I need to retain a complex relationship to it-- I need to keep my own response fluid and unfettered, to keep any emotional significance at least partly submerged and unconscious, because as soon as it starts being used and compared to other readers' emotional responses, I feel it's being used against me.
I genuinely believe that to really read with your whole brain, it's best to allow one's responses to occur-- emotional and intellectual-- without a built up context of outside, imposed meaning. It's almost dishonest that way, going into a story with expectations and needs that the story should either satisfy or leave empty. I feel that's putting too much of a weight on the reader's power and -their- needs rather than letting the story's intrinsic worth assert itself and win the reader over in whatever fashion.
This is why, partly, I do review directly-- give feedback to the author-- but I don't really review publically, with the intent to influence other readers. I may link to fics, but I cannot imagine that others' responses should be (could be?) anything like mine, or that others could or should see what I do in a fic. I know that this outside 'framing influence' would threaten to ruin my own chance at enjoyment, just because there will be that wall of expectation and pre-made analysis lying between me and the raw essence of the fic.
With something like Shakespeare and other classics, I feel it's different because there are so many voices out there that it's a chorus, and no one opinion has to dominate. Similarly, I don't mind talking about HP, because there are simply so many people talking about the books in every which way. But in less 'public' works, I feel I need that privacy-- that sanctuary, that almost sacred bond between me and the text. A reviewer (when read pre-reading) becomes something like a voyeur, almost, their whispered words making me see things that may or may not be there. However, the real 'violation' of the one-on-one between me and the fic comes when the review aims to make me -feel- things that may or may not be there.
I'm not saying 'reviewing is bad and evil and should be stopped'-- god, that would be stupid-- I'm just saying that personally, a certain kind of review, which aims to critically frame the story in a certain emotional context, ruins the private pleasure of reading for me almost entirely. That's just me, though.
~~
I really want to stop talking about H/D. Perhaps I should join a twelve-step program: how to stop obsessing, for the Perpetually Brainwash Resistant. Hmmm. I did have plans to talk about whether it's better to write characters one loves or hates (see, a nice abstract subject). Woe. Am hopeless t00b.
Anyway, the question of 'can Harry love canon!Draco' has been bugging me the past few days. Basically... I don't think so (and am ambivalent about how I feel about that). Typical ice-prince fanon!Draco wouldn't fare much better though; if anything, I have an intuition that Harry would hate him -more- because he's just so larger than life and over-inflated and fire-retardant and all of that. I mean... sure, there are 'cool' people Harry likes in a distant sort of 'oh, right' manner (the twins, I guess), but his friends are rather 'normal' as far as he can tell, I think.
What I'm saying is, I don't agree that Harry needs to build up anyone he likes/loves on a pedestal, not entirely-- I do think he wants to admire and respect them, but that's different. I think he likes feeling like they're great (like Sirius-- it's not that there are -reasons- for him to be great, he just is, to Harry), but not being overwhelmed by someone's sheer haughty cold grandeur or whatever. Then again, the truth is, fanon!Draco is clearly a fantasy extrapolation of what canon!Draco wishes he was (but isn't), so the trick here would be to ask what -Harry- wants, not what -Draco- wants. Since I'm pretty sure Draco wouldn't mind being his fanon self, whereas Harry likes actual sincerity and what he sees as integrity in human beings, as long as it's not over the top dramatics like with Cho.
Sometimes I think it's hilarious that I go on about wanting to read what I could believe was 'canonish' Draco in fic, especially when I realized that I don't actually -ship- canon!Draco with Harry (who doesn't really have more than one version in my head). I imagine lots of other people feel the same, though they say they ship H/D.
It's just very, VERY hard to write Harry wanting Draco (as is) convincingly, and not because of hate at all, but simply because Harry -disapproves- of Draco on a basic level. It's not that he loves or hates-- he just doesn't like him or respect him as a human being, I think. Draco is whiny, self-centered, probably clingy, nasty to people Harry likes & respects, weak and generally annoying in a thousand little ways. (This is Harry's pov, btw, not necessarily my own.)
So what to do? I'm starting to really feel like Harry wouldn't -like- Draco or accept him 'as is' (Ani DiFranco style) even if he -loved- and wanted to shag him senseless.
Basically, 'the problem with Draco' isn't that he's a 'snarky bastard' or an 'asshole' or a 'bad boy'-- that, Harry could definitely get over and accept. He's not the 'Big Bad'-- he's the annoying prat who's as spoiled as Dudley, as loud as Colin Creevey, and as stupidly prejudiced as his bastard father. What, exactly, is Harry going to like? In canon, he's even -wittier- than Draco, as far as I can tell.
Most people agree that H/D is what one might call a 'fanon' rather than 'canon' pairing-- meaning that its basic premise is drawn from the characters' -potential- rather than their actual dynamic. So in a way, writing H/D fully 'true to canon', starting from 'the beginning' (as I like to see done) can be seen as a form of shooting oneself in the foot before one started to actually move.
So... canon!H/D is kind of a sad joke (from Harry's pov-- canon Draco, I'm semi-convinced wanks over Potter more than he cares to remember, but that's probably my kink talking). It's a really frustrating realization for an H/D writer: (what if) I don't ship H/D in canon at all??... And yes, I'm that much of a Harry ho, what can I say. As far as canon!Draco goes-- well, I'm sorry for him & sometimes find him cute & sometimes funny, and sometimes even admirable in a twisted way. Mostly, I think he's a pathetic wanker who needs to grow up. And yes, that's partly my inner!Harry speaking, but so it goes regardless. Malfoy needs to get a grip on something other than himself-- or perhaps I mean the opposite-- what Malfoy needs to finally get a grip on himself, but for real.
For 'convincing' H/D (funny how I say that since I'm a shipper, and we're supposed to be 'already convinced', but I'm just funny I guess), on some level one has little choice but to 'mess with' canon. It's just a question of doing it 'right', as far as this pairing goes. Essentially, it all revolves around moving Draco forward in his development to make Harry see him as more of an equal, because it seems to me that that's what Harry would want.
So I guess I understand the conundrum that drives all the rampant fics out there about cool-assed-Master-of-Slytherin!Draco. I mean, if he's -cool-, I guess one could say he 'deserves' Harry (which I personally have problems with as a concept). The issue, to me, isn't who 'deserves' whom, but rather what the people involved want and need from a partner and whether a particular relationship can fulfill their needs. The idea of canon!Draco fulfilling Harry's needs makes me laugh (meanly). I'm sorry, Malfoy. You know I love you, but. Yeah.
Basically, it's just that I think snarky-sexy-cool!Draco fics go way overboard but still vaguely in the 'right' direction for a successful relationship to develop (whatever -that- means-- I suppose to me, it means a fulfilling one) between Harry and Draco. And it's this need to somehow develop Draco that appears to make people think they've got a free ticket to change his whole personality, which is ridiculous. Also arguably JKR herself has done it, ahahah. Sorry, random snark.
All Draco really needs is a good measure of self-confidence and self-awareness (no small goals, of course), because his utter lack of those two things combine to ensure Harry will never change his mind about him, and Draco, for his part, will never be secure enough in his own status as an individual to see Potter as just another boy, albeit one he loves/wants. Anyway, not seeing Potter as the bane of his existence and the reason for all his failures would also help.
I freely admit all this is mostly nothing but a rehash of things I've said before, but I just think some of these concepts are finally -solidifying- (after all this time, too!) in my head into a coherent whole. I'm finally seeing Harry's all-important motivations here rather clearly-- and it's not a pretty picture. All this would probably only seem significant if you know just how elusive and fuzzy his characterization and 'stand' in their dynamic had generally been to me in my own writing.
All those eons ago, I'd started out with a -way- vocal Draco muse which has almost completely dominated nearly all my H/D efforts, whether or not they were in Draco's pov. I -knew-, to the marrow of my bones, where my Draco was coming from, and Harry was sort of left to adjust and react (in one way or another) to his presence. It was always 'will Harry give in??' before, whereas now it's a more mutual problem, which might actually help my writing. Maybe.
I just realized that even if Harry 'gave in' and started a relationship with Draco, the deeper problem wouldn't be solved at all. Not if Draco remained a stupid whiny prat as far as Harry could see-- and love/lust doesn't necessarily have to mean seeing the person through rose-colored glasses, but especially in this case. *sigh*
So yeah. It really is up to Draco; and I'm starting to appreciate the merits of the transition if Draco's step forward occurred before Harry 'noticed' him, because doing H/D and Draco-transformation -concurrently- is-- well, it's a nightmare. Uh, very difficult, I mean. Makes my poor brain huuuurrrrt. Well, until I give up and go read/write H/D porn, anyway.
~~
Also, because, it needs to be said:
stellabelle wrote another hilarious H/D fic which made me snort & giggle & coo (alternatively, but sometimes at the same time). It is truly a Very Special Thing for a story to warm the cockles of my (dirty slapper!) heart just so. Awwwwwww. (I just can't take unfunny fluff, is all.)See, the thing is-- I really don't have the emotional energy to read that much H/D anymore unless I 'trust' you as an author (and often even if I do). Even with the authors I adore... the 'H/D place' in my heart is... sore. I'm being careful, maybe, so I don't snap like I did this past winter and read -no- H/D for like, four months.
stellabelle's fic is sort of... restorative in that regard. <3
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
your debonair ways so sway me
Date: 2004-09-12 06:26 am (UTC)*swoons!!!*
(Btw, I just realised I don't think I want the authority figure in training grown into his potential. I love too much the in-fieri stage. Adolescents! Youth is the end all be all of hope. ... I really want to write H/D as Utena/Anthy, damnit. And get a reputation for it. Although I did read the canon before the fanfic, sigh...)
*catches*
Date: 2004-09-12 08:47 am (UTC)Eh, I don't know if Harry will ever grow into some sort of dominant authority role, really. I mean... he doesn't want that much power/contact with people, I don't think-- that much responsibility. He wants to be an Auror, not Dumbledore or Minister of Magic. I don't think Auror!Harry would be -that- different, personality-wise, than Hogwarts!Harry. It's not like he's in training to be King or something :>
Re: *catches*
Date: 2004-09-12 02:20 pm (UTC)And the bit you were telling me about in your last email? The King of the World and his submissive companion who only shits on him in private? Sososo H/D, if one tilts his head the right angle. I mean. Harry would be great as a King of the World (as opposed to other KoW wannabe who only piss me or are exceedingly lame) because it would be so effortless. Like, I don't even think he would want to. He would just naturally become it.
I am in love with this image now, I must fit it somewhere in the Stuff I Am Writing And It Would Really Make Me Happy To Finish One Day.
Sigh. H/D makes me so happy.
Re: *catches*
Date: 2004-09-12 02:22 pm (UTC)Re: *catches*
Date: 2004-09-12 02:27 pm (UTC)I really was talking about seekersidethorn, though. Do you see yourself that way?
Re: *catches*
Date: 2004-09-12 02:29 pm (UTC)It's just weird 'cause... this is a fairy-tale thing, and I always thought of myself as the spunky princess, like Lily y'know, or Ginny, say (AHAHAH). Like, I'd be all rebellious and tough and intelligent and independent, but then the guy would be SO... I mean, he'd just be -so-, that after a long period of butting heads and arguing and courtship, I'd... not exactly submit... I'd... accomodate, maybe...??
Re: *catches*
Date: 2004-09-12 02:31 pm (UTC)Re: *catches*
Date: 2004-09-12 02:32 pm (UTC)Re: *catches*
Date: 2004-09-12 02:33 pm (UTC)Re: *catches*
From:*condescends*
From:Re: *condescends*
From:Re: *catches*
From:Re: *catches*
From:Re: *catches*
From:Re: *catches*
From:Re: *catches*
From:Geeky anime stuff
Date: 2004-09-12 08:29 pm (UTC)Draco lacks Anthy's sacrifice and subtlety.
Hm. Draco is kinda like Nanami or, even better, Asuka from Eva... can't think of a Harry-like anime character, actually *hurts brain*
Re: Geeky anime stuff
Date: 2004-09-13 01:02 am (UTC)I kind of ship Asuka/Shinji. Too bad Shinji and Harry... it makes me laugh and laugh just thinking about it.
I actually find many similarities between Harry and Utena... for example (http://www.livejournal.com/users/adora_spintriae/7654.html#cutid1). And Utena doubts, too, at one point. Draco as Anthy is more difficult, but I don't think because of the sacrifice part, more because of the subtlety. I can see Draco dying for his dad, so I can see him dying for Harry. But the smartness of the sacred feminine... ahaha, maybe in some very convoluted way?
I think I don't eant to write it in a literal way, but in a more abstract sense where there are parallels with them being Ouroboros and all Gnostic saving the world from God and the blade and the caliche (the driver and the car!) and the adolescence/growth/revolution theme?
Re: Geeky anime stuff
Date: 2004-09-13 04:57 am (UTC)... saving the world from Dumbledore!!! why the hell didn't I think about this before?
And so the Utena/Harry Ouroboros is complete. Mwhaha. *writes*
Gets herself down w/ the D-dore luv
Date: 2004-09-14 01:43 am (UTC)I actually have great respect for him trying to run things, *even* if he's being all manipulative. It's a horrible position he's in. All the tough things to be chosen between.
He feels responsibility. And I see it as responsibility, because I never get the feeling that he's working for some dark goal. I also never get the feeling that he loves power, or gets a rush out of manipulating people--for one thing, fanon aside, he's often only mediocre at it when he attempts it (his judgments and handling of Harry, Sirius and Snape in OoTP were all quite off).
He's trying (perhaps making some dumbass mistakes, perhaps being blind along the way) to do what's best for the wizarding world, since he can--since he's the most powerful guy they've got. He does it out of love and duty and responsibility from what I can see.
I've been thinking about the thorny morality choices of this type of role lately. What does one do when faced with horribly difficult decisions? Like (randomly since too dumb to think of HP example), if you were 80% certain that killing one innocent person would save thousands of lives--wouldn't you still be a horrible person to kill that innocent? Yet what about the many other innocents who could possibly maybe perhaps die? In a Hollywood movie they just save everyone; everyone can keep their hands clean, but that's a happy cop-out. Morality puzzles like this eat at me.
I think revolutions often sink back into the same old thing, like a cycle. The real trick is to grow up.
haha. It's like, on any given topic, we will have opposite opinions. >.
Re: Gets herself down w/ the D-dore luv
Date: 2004-09-14 02:13 am (UTC)... which he is, btw, ahahah! I win.
I just really dislike being presented with this Godlike pandering figure. I'd prefer someone who does his job without trying to completely bewitch me to. It's so oppressive in a Big Brother way. He wants me to love him - why? Who cares? I don't love politicians, I give them power because someone has to govern us or we would eat each other, and I trust them to work in the interest of all the people (which Dumbledore doesn't). I understand necessary evils for the greater ends. I just think hi greater end is badly different from what mine would be.
I like Phineas.
Re: Gets herself down w/ the D-dore luv
Date: 2004-09-14 02:51 am (UTC)He's a teacher/soldier become school headmaster. His power and past service is what makes the politicians pay any attention to him, not his (not-so) clever political maneuverings. The best he usually manages is illegal tricks outside official channels. He's actually pretty anti-government with his mini-militia and the fact that he can't get Fudge or the media on board with him until the truth walks into their offices and sits on their heads.
Big Brother was about power for power's sake with love as a political tool of diversion. Totally totally different than Dumbledore's situation. Dumbledore wants to be loved because he's *not* a politician. It's not a tool for him. He cares about the people around him as people, even as he guides them (like a mentor or parent might) or positions them (as a leader), he wants them to care about him back for purely human reasons.
And he's become a leader by default. He's essentially a teacher/mentor, I think. Or perhaps, a busybody :D. A kind of leader, but not one that really grasps after power. He got stuck with a bunch of stuff because he's the oldest/strongest and if he doesn't try to take care of things... who will?
What do you see his greater end as? I always thought it was to stop Grindlewald from happening again.
Phineas... I try to reserve judgment on, given how little we know. Mostly I found him amusing, but no one I would want around kids. Too interested in showing how smart and superior he is, and not interested in helping/teaching others that I could see. (Grad students only for this guy, same as Snape.) Just because he's disagreeable doesn't make him more honest and pure. It just means he's disagreeable. I'm annoyed that there seem to be no charming or agreeable Slytherins. You'd think that to be crafty and ambitious there would be some people who could be pleasant...
Also: love it when people give me candy :D
Must go bed now.
Re: Gets herself down w/ the D-dore luv
Date: 2004-09-14 03:12 am (UTC)It just really completely drives me mad how he only just cares about Harry's pain. What the hell. He was not like that with Tom. He was not like that with Barty Crouch Jr (uh, that's supposed to be my compassionate role model?). And what the hell was with stealing the Slytherin rightly earnead Cup in first year to... oh, wait, to woo Harry.
If I = Harry, Dumbledore = total demagogue. And how is he not politician? He's the leader of the Light Side, and supposedly trying to make the world a better place. Even while not being part of the government, he does politics. I mean, Christ was a politician too. A better one at that.
... Not that I am completely unreasonable with bitterness, here.
Re: Gets herself down w/ the D-dore luv
Date: 2004-09-15 02:06 am (UTC)Isn't this the worst thing to do to someone? Isn't this what you detest in others doing to Draco? >:OOOO
Dumbledore is just as human as any of 'em. I can list off tons of his lame mistakes or sinister behaviors, but I still think he is striving for the stars, for all that he is in the gutter with the rest of us. And that is what I respect/admire in him.
I will have to get into the Crouch Jr stuff later, as I am kinda blanking on what Dumbledore did that was so bad to this nasty guy. But in the end he is *Harry's* mentor, not Tom's or Crouch Jr's or even Ron's or Hermione's. That he's letting some people fall through the cracks makes him a bad headmaster, but that he loves unequally is just a part of being human.
I think it's unfair to hate him so much just for falling short of a godlike ideal, disliking him for a perceived hypocrisy.
He's the leader of the Light Side, and supposedly trying to make the world a better place
But "the Light Side", what is that anyway? A fanon creation. He's in charge of the order of the phoenix, which is basically an underground vigilante/militia group. A group that seems to have very little actual power.
The general population of the wizarding world--they generally believe whatever the (one) paper prints about Harry, or what the Ministry feeds them. The death eaters didn't come from nowhere all those years ago. And I think the seeds of many of their beliefs are still very strong in the wizarding world. I mean, when I read about Arthur Weasley's innocently patronizing interest in muggles or "the [Weasley] cousin no one talks about" or all the memory charms they were doing on the poor guy at the world quidditch cup...it gives me the creeps.
Um, basically. I don't see Dumbledore doing much general speechifying or leading or power-using. He does things within a small circle (the order, Harry), but a politician needs to cater to and control the *masses*. If nothing else, Dumbledore's bungling of his relationship with the Slytherin students (we know of) points to his lack of interest in this arena. Yet he seems fond of Phineas, and he Snape seem to care for/trust each other--implying that one-on-one, he has little problem trusting or relying or caring for Slytherins. PR-wise, not so hot.
(again, I think he was a hufflepuff, not a slyth. no matter what jkr decides)
Re: Gets herself down w/ the D-dore luv
From:forgot...
Date: 2004-09-14 03:18 am (UTC)And I don't think Phineas is smug or selfish at all. Altight, maybe smug, but he's also more honest than Dumbledore will ever be. Because Harry? Such a little drama queen, at times. If anything, he doesn't sugar-coat things and he doesn't seem afraid of his students' resentment. And just because a Gryffindor says he was the worse Headmaster Hogwarts has ever seen, it doesn't make it true. I bet the Slytherins liked him a lot.
Re: forgot...
Date: 2004-09-15 02:15 am (UTC)I'll have to take a rain check on Phineas for now as well as Crouch Jr because I'm not remembering very well, and need to look at the books again.
Re: forgot...
From:Re: Geeky anime stuff
Date: 2004-09-14 01:09 am (UTC)Utena doubts, but briefly, after a calculated hard shove, and very quickly regains her footing (with very little "proof" from Anthy--which is what I find disturbing, but also fascinating about the show, and why my weak self loves the Anthy reciprocation of the movie)
Draco, well I can see many possibilities for him, just like for Harry, but it's still in our visions of the future and not how they are now. Anthy isn't about that she *would* sacrifice, but that she *did.* (would Draco really die for his Father? I'm not sure. Malfoy pere is the god that protects and must be satisfied, but like any parent--who does not need protection. For the Father not to be perfect would be a betrayal, a repellent weakness.)
And I can see Draco as slightly fem, but the one aspect he will definitely remain solidly male in is in his lack of convoluted female subtleties. He's simple like almost all men (careful you don't make him a sue yourself ^_~), no matter what he imagines of himself.
Um, not that I think you are saying that Utena=HP, but just had to get my thoughts out.
You are referencing gnosticism. Head hurts. Utena was so... symbolic and grand and meta. Harry Potter is the pumpkin juice and Christmas presents and dirt under your fingernails. JKR's iffy use of themes/symbolism only makes me want to focus on the concrete things more. And also, in Utena, there were no adults. I think you are devaluing the HP adults a bit.
Re: Geeky anime stuff
Date: 2004-09-14 02:03 am (UTC)I was reaching, yeah, but as you said, it wasn't a literal or direct parallel. I just would like to exlore themes about adolescence as a metaphor for revolution and growth as a mean to peace and truth... err. I'd need to get into pagan and/or zen stuff here, and I am not sure you're interested in hearing. Anthy's & Utena's their strenght is not precisely in the individual, but rather in their Ouroboros, in their combination - that's what I meant when I said H/D as Utena/Anthy, not that there is any exact material correspondence between the characters.
The sacred feminine - ahah, I do know I project stuff on Draco, but in this case it's not me, I swear. The sacred feminine is a symbol, which uses the word "feminine" as opposed to "male" not to hint as the vagina, per se (hey, Utena is the male is the blade is the driver, and yet she's rather girly at times) but mostly as the other driving force in the universe besides aggressive strenght/war. Acceptance, sacrifice, balance.
... which Draco is, uhm, a bit (just a bit) distant from. If you go by appareances. But apparences are deceiving? Mostly I take Draco's willingness to attack (and his attitude in general) Harry after his Dad's been thrown in jail as the sign he's blind (or unconditional) when it comes to avenge him. There's just something about him that speaks to me more of dicility than aggression. When in love. Or, I could see him easily take that direction - I'm not really arguing this is where H/D *is going*, I just think it'd be an interesting place (... maybe only for me) to bring them.
And I am not the most loyal writer when it comes to canon. I love adding my own layers to the canon-platform, even when it means I have to subvert. JKR sort of when it comes to symbols mostly because they serve the plot and not the opposite. In the end, it's either (as you do) focus on the pumpkin juice or try to create your own order out of her chaos.
Yeah, it's true I don't value the adults in HP a lot. The only adults worth their name seem to be dead. The others all seem to have failed at growing somehow. Then there's the ones who didn't fail, are adults, but also villains / creepy authority presences (Lucius, Dumbledore, Voldemort...)
Re: Geeky anime stuff
Date: 2004-09-14 09:00 am (UTC)Man. <3333333333333333333333333
That made me happy. *sigh* Listening to you talk about Harry keeps me grounded and gives me something to reach for at the same time <3<3<3 Omg pumpkin juice reminds me of Ivy's Harry, too. Wah. <3
the evils of populism
Date: 2004-09-14 12:42 pm (UTC)VOTE POTTER FOR MINISTRER OF MAGIC 2005! A TRUE GRYFFINDOR FAMILY MAN.
I rest my case.
(seekersidethorn can't post - Conspiracy! I knew.)
Re: the evils of populism
Date: 2004-09-14 12:52 pm (UTC)I didn't think of it that way at all. It's that he's a -boy-, not a man. He's just a scruffy, messy, dirty boy <3
Re: the evils of populism
Date: 2004-09-14 12:53 pm (UTC)Re: the evils of populism
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From:...the truth wants YOU
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