~~ bad writers untie! :D
Sep. 4th, 2003 07:53 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenka![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
sistermagpie said she's sad because someone said they're sick of h/d because no one writes in-character fic for it. and you know, i'm really wondering why -i'm- still here, in general (right now i'm er... not, that much, but then i'm just distracted). metaphorically speaking. is it the fic, that is so brilliant? is it the tantalizing genius of the analysis? is it even my friends in the fandom?ha. to me it doesn't matter how harry & draco's get butchered as long as -i- see them in a certain way, as long as -i- exist; i would be a fandom of one. i would have jumped ship AGES ago if i was just saying "well how in-character does the fic get", because it doesn't. yes, we all know that in-character h/d fic doesn't really exist if you're picky about it. doesn't take very long to figure that out, man. there's some -great writing- in this pairing, some of the -best- writing, some of the most passionate writing. plus i adore them and the possibility of what they could be.
i think most people aren't -in- "the ship" as far as "the h/d fandom" very much unless they're newbies or really obsessively passionate (ie, they're the writers, not the readers, usually). either that, or people stay for certain particular wip's that keep their faith alive or something. but really, the majority of h/d fans seem to be... not very discriminating. a lot of the discriminating writers had their major productive periods more than a year ago, before ootp and maybe during and right after gof. right now-- it's mostly the newbies. it's not about being in-character and brilliantly rendered and really believable. i mean, if you want canon-believable, for most people that doesn't equal enemy-slash. well, usually.
i guess that while i find getting bored of monotony a reasonable explanation for not reading a certain pairing anymore, the whole "none of it is good" doesn't really seem to work. the majority of everything is pretty much crap anyway. i mean, how can you even justify having high expectations? in fact, the writing in -every- pairing, the fact that brilliant writing -exists- in the first place, already more than justifies and fulfills my expectations. sure, it would be -great- if fic existed that satisfied the canonists and the redemptionists and the smut-fiends and the believable-build-up people all at once-- but the more specific your desires, the more the answer becomes: write it yourself.
people write what they want to write, and partly what they want to read. if no stringently in-character h/d fic exists, this means the demand is low, since even amidst all the piles of crap, the talent is nevertheless high. i guess it's just vaguely surprising that one would seriously -expect- certain things from the fics. i mean, i get upset at bad characterization all the time, but i only get upset because i see so much potential, because i still -want- and need to basically see what amounts to my own vision. and if your own vision is what you need, and you don't share or agree with the majority, then you probably have always known that (well, i have).
might as well be yet another bad writer than a continuously disenfranchised and dissatisfied good reader, i would say.~:)
~~
also. cc's `a lot to be upset about' is the best thing since sliced bread. it is also draco/ginny. muwahahaha. with a side of comedic!draco/snape, which i -really- didn't think could be done. heeee. loveloveloveloveit. want to slash it, except not. i ship non-slashed h+d, eheheh :D
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no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 06:32 pm (UTC)This could be right (and is a theory I have long subscribed to) but there is another element. I like reading H?D (or any other pairing or lack of pairing) even if it feels ooc to me because it may shape my own perceptions. Even a mediocre fic can sometimes have a central view point or belief that triggers some new idea in my head.
That and the fact that I'm an eternal optimist... the next one really will be be exactly as I want it... ;-)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 06:41 pm (UTC)see, like with parodies or poetic fics or anything by my favorite authors, often enough. i'm like, OMG, GENIUS!! SHE SAID "GREEN"!! heheeh.
well, you know what i mean. yeah.
i don't tend to like -study- fics, myself. completely hedonistic. either it does it for me or-- well-- not. but yah, if one reads only for characterization, one should probably have quit all fandom in general >:D
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 06:52 pm (UTC)completely hedonistic
sounds like a good way to look at fic, there is only so much analysis one can take ;-D
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 07:18 pm (UTC)I cannot believe you like Draco/Ginny, freak. Somehow I will soldier on in loving you anyway.
Also, it appears to be September, and there are New Yorkish rumblings going on in the fandom (okay, basically just that I saw Lasair is coming soon, and wasn't that the Big Thing?) so are we planning? Let's plan, goddammit.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 07:33 pm (UTC)also, i of course didn't initially read the d/g, but it's just too hilarious and woobie, and it's not like there's graphic smut (though that might be interesting... okay, no) in it. it's just got hilarious angry!harry and self-obsessed-dork!draco and shy-slut!ginny. it's just great :D :D you should read it! you will laugh! or i'll give you your money back!! ahahaha. *coughs*
oh yeah, so.
yah.
i actually have rosh-hashanah break at the end of the month, but that's not when lasair's coming. le sigh. i wasn't even thinking of her initially, it was all ivy & aja and um, i should prolly -ask- ivy 'cause she hasn't mentioned it since, so...
oh yah, so. las said she can't do weekends except this one sunday (she's there 9-16th)... i can do a sunday or friday-saturday-sunday, but er... weekdays are difficult though i can make it on a thursday especially if i skip class ^^;
so yeah. um. that's where it stands right nooowww... um. i'm not good at like... being decisive, but yeah :D
plus i don't think the original person's beef was with badfic it was with all-fic. and you know, i do think there -might- be in-character ron/hermione out there and we'd NEVER KNOW.
think about that.
somewhere, out there... someone's writing entirely believable, in-character ron/hermione.
it...
gives ya shivers, doesn't it :D :D
<3!
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 07:52 pm (UTC)In-character is such a fine line to walk, though, because who's to say what is and isn't? I mean, yeah, I could safely say that fuzzy bunny Muggle-loving Draco is bad characterization, but the lines get fuzzier when it's like, foot fetish Draco or something. Because like, who knows? It could work. I mean, I wouldn't read it, but. Apparently the fandom hasn't gotten the memo that everything must be written for me, so I suppose I'll have to keep holding out until I am queen. *bides time* My point being that people should recognize that they'll never be perfectly in character, but that doesn't mean they should stop trying. Also, that everyone should write more H/D porn.
Re: gathering, well. I don't know, then. I think I'm going to leave it up to you to be proactive girl and when you've got shit figured out you let me know and I'll come up offering snark, gossip, and my lauded presence. *bows out*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 08:12 pm (UTC)actually i was thinking more... "well because this-and-that happened to harry/dumbledore/ron/whoever, they would not engage in this-or-that behavior unless you could show progression" sort of thing. i mean, little quirks and completely out-of-the-blue attributes are okay as long as they don't contradict what we know. but if harry came back and was like, slytherin? let's accept them in the da. and by the way, i haven't chatted with malfoy enough lately. also, ron doesn't understand me, i think i won't be friends with him anymore. hermione's just annoying. harry is deeply empathetic to draco's plight now that he's sad and depressed about his father.... he trusts dumbledore just like that again... lucius is really a very beautiful and loving man...
blahblah i've seen it all~:)
i mean... really really bad mistakes get made all the time. it's frightening~:) maybe i just notice them more -.- 'course, it's all hopeless, 'cause it'll be a one-woman fandom before any of us totally agree as to what the canon's actually -saying- anyway, so~:)
i would be very happy though if people just stuck to:
draco's not: nice, blindingly intelligent/talented, considerate, liable to cry, open about his emotions, likely to forgive potter any time soon, easily made to -admit- to being a bottom to potter anyway, a sparkling conversationalist (though i'm attached to that one), abused and thus made bad, a potions -genius- (hermione -beats- him), smooth, gorgeous, insanely popular with all girls and boys everywhere, remote and icy, logical, not really vindictive or petty but rather reasonable, really, blahblah-every-fanfic-that-isn't-one-of-the-best blah ><;;
harry's not: kindly, reasonable, painfully open-minded, perfect, gorgeous, suicidal (probably), completely gay, a loner, someone who easily places responsibility and duty before all else, someone who is wholly comfortable with authority, someone who will ever like lucius malfoy is a zillion trillion gadzillion years, a heartless bastard, smooth, logical, even-tempered, painfully innocent and baby-like... gah, must stop ><;;
(that icon is porny!harry, btw. ahaha)
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Date: 2003-09-04 08:09 pm (UTC)That would be me, of course. Was pointed here by a friend.
I have some thoughts on what you've written; however, I must first ask you to clarify whether or not at this point you've actually read canon? Because not very long ago, you duly admitted you had not, and at that time did not feel reading canon was necessary for character analysis. And I'll tell you right now, I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise at a fundamental level.
I ask this not to be bitchy, but rather to have a full picture of where you're coming from, for there are two issues I see in your post: characterization and writing ability.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 08:23 pm (UTC)meep.
er.... did i ever actually say that reading canon was not necessary for character analysis? i feel like it's all a game of telephone by this point, but i -think- i'd just said that it -seems- like i -can- tell what canon's -about- and the major themes, elements and even a lot of the details without having read it -directly- but instead knowing it indirectly. i know a lot of things indirectly, and while it's -better- and of course much more rewarding to go to the source, it's possible to pay attention to the bits of information one finds elsewhere and build a reasonable model. that is to say, if you quizzed me in a class where i listened to conversations, to the instructor and read reviews/etc, i would have been able to pass the quizz and perhaps spot others' errors, even though i probably wouldn't have been able to write a 30 page paper-- or even a 10 page paper-- without being hugely general and reliant on archetypes and general psychology.
it is still enough to write very satisfactory fic with only a basic knowledge of character traits and psychology in general, which most people do not possess even having read the books 2-3 times, simply because their minds don't retain information as well as they could. i'm only arguing this because it seems like a valid point in general, not necessarily re: in character pairing fics. i feel reading isn't as important as -knowing-. just because you read doesn't mean you know and you can know without reading, just not as well as you would otherwise, but still better than a lot of other people. you know?
also, i never even gave characterization feedback to people, i only give general storytelling feedback usually. people notice that i had ideas on characterization they agreed with, but it's not like i went around saying, "ha! i haven't read them and i'm a genius!".
anyway, i've read them ^^;
to me, writing ability augments and sometimes supercedes someone's characterization ability in a particular story. also, if someone has little writing ability, their characterization will almost always also suck. i've never seen a story carried on in-character writing alone (i can't even conceive of such a thing). also, in-characterness is significantly subjective, and perfection can only be attained if you wrote it yourself, i would imagine, unless you lowered your standards. things were smelling fishy to me even -before- my standards rose after direct reading, but that probably says even more about general fic quality than about me ><;
heh.
~reena
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 09:35 pm (UTC)In my case, I am referring to the LJ conversations (Cassie's and Aja's journals, IIRC) that took place back . . . well, whenever they did :D regarding your participation on the Draco panel (which I did see) at Nimbus; at that time you had not read canon, and the message you purveyed at the time came across as you felt it was unnecessary to have read canon to extrapolate accurate characterizations of canon characters. That was then.
You've said you have now read all five books, so that lends more credibility to your argument IMO (because I am an unabashed canon whore to some extent).
That said . . . er. . . I've never had to say this before in an LJ comment, but I honestly am not understanding your point. I've read through it quite a few times now, and I am just not getting it. So I'll say this, regarding my own post:
-In my comments about Harry/Draco fic, I was not talking about you specifically.
-Because authors enjoy and choose to use over-used formulaic story arcs does not make them bad writers; bad writing is definitely subjective.
-If others enjoy formulaic H/D stories, that is certainly their perogative; as is it my perogative to reject such fics on a fundamental level as being OOC. Fic choices are certainly unrelated to an author's and a reader's character.
To sum: My comments were not directed at any author in particular. I do not agree that canon is extraneous to proper characterization. People are free to read, write and enjoy what they will. It's all subjective.
Ta,
~Slytherincess
(ps: If this sound abrupt, it is not intended to be so. I'm tired, crabby, and have a sour stomach! Oh, and I love to wank in general, so take me with a grain of salt :D ). I'm a wanktacular.
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 09:58 pm (UTC)hee.
um...
so yeah, no need to think i'm offended(?) because i felt you somehow targeted me or my or anyone's reading choices. i am completely general in approach so i worry about things on a level that is at a remove from any particular person, and take it "personally" even if it has nothing to do with being personal. i take ideas personally, but that has nothing to do with whoever brings them up. does that make sense?
i also know what you were referring to, as far as my comments on ivy & cassie's lj's. how can i not? everyone kind of jumped down my throat. it would be hard to forget.
to slightly re-iterate my earlier point, i was talking about my capacity to comprehend the content of a text ("hp canon" in this case) without reading the source (the actual books, in this case) directly but rather reading commentary (like cliffs notes, for example, not that i read them) and discussion and multiple references to it in visual and textual and conversational forms. this isn't a totally radical concept. i myself have passed classes based solely on conversation and general associated knowledge; people surmise historical facts based on later records-- this is what's called circumstantial evidence. so i would agree that canon is necessary, just that there is more ways to know it than simply reading it. another point was that plenty of people don't know it even though they -do- read it. does that make more sense?
~~
"formulaic" implies plot-devices more than characterization issues. i certainly dislike formulaic anything, because it's sloppy and bad writing in my opinion, since by definition it was produced "from formula", meaning little or no creative thought was involved. if a fic isn't using creative thought, it's bad, end of story.
i would never -dream- of saying that -anything- to do with fic has -anything- to do with a writer's or a reader's character, unless by "character" you mean "not a very good writer" or "not a very discerning reader". which is a reflection on them the way liking green is a reflection on someone: a very small one, but theoretically possible.
"story arcs" refers to plot (formulaic), not characterization, usually. i mean, for that you'd have character arcs. i admit most character arcs in the h/d section of the hp fandom don't start from what i would consider valid canonical roots.
my point in the post was, that was always the case, and it was always obvious if you read even 5 of the best h/d fics out there, unless they're very short, but those don't have character arcs. the long fics are almost all unfinished at this point, and the ones that aren't could never have been said to have been canonically rigorous, ever. my overall thing was, "why is this a surprise?" basically~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 10:38 pm (UTC)No, of course you didn't directly state that my comments on my own LJ were directed at you. What I meant to say was my comments on the subject in general are not directed at any one individual author. I think that's a more concise way of putting it.
Anyhow, more tomorrow!
no subject
Date: 2003-09-24 08:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 09:07 pm (UTC)I admit to liking things in some fics I don't think are that great--I can fasten on to a throwaway line or situation and run with it. The weird thing is that as much as I love Canon!Draco and Harry I know I could never really say I was someone who judged a fic based on that. There are H/D fics that I really like, that I think give great H/D characterizations, but if pressed I'd have to say they're not really starting from Canon. Oh, they'll have something from canon that I can sink my teeth into and say yes, this says something about canon Draco or Harry, otherwise I just won't be interested. But I wouldn't not read a story just because it used the "Draco's done some thinking over the summer" device until I see how it's done. It is possible Draco could go through a shade of change on his own given how little we see him in canon, and it's not like Harry didn't show a pretty big marked difference in the month between GoF and OotP. I've even been known to enjoy fics that do things that go against things I think are wrong for H/D depending how they're done. I guess, yeah, as long as the characters in my head have potential I'm going to still be interested. And the weird thing is I don't write fanfic. I think I have this strange idea that if I am the one writing it it's not true, whereas if somebody else wrote it down it really happened in some alternate universe. Or something.
Btw, I think the moment Draco admits on some level that he wants to be a bottom to Harry is usually one of the high points of an H/D fic for me.:D
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 09:41 pm (UTC)but totally, if you write h/d, they become much more a part of you, so it's a different dynamic. i mean, if i get turned on -writing- a scene about harry & draco as well as -reading- it, that really messes with me weirdly, especially since most of the time i don't want them at all, i just want them with each other in a motherly, concerned "awww, i adore you both" sort of way. but then you write or read something intense and all the sweet love goes out the window and you can't help but identify with one or the other or both, just because one does that when one reads or writes. and this is a tangent, but er... yeah.
i am totally with you (surprise!) on not always really judging based on in-characterness (all you have to do is see my list of favorite fics and you'd see plenty of rather ooc stuff that i felt was interestingly written and characterized, so i loved it). i'm rather drawn into a really interesting fic to the point where i forget about my theoretical issues, usually, unless the bad writing quality or the poor basic plausibility forces me to remember. i mean, most of the most awful characterization errors, i've always thought, are basically bad characterization choices for -any- semi-believable human being. but yeah, canon characterization is clearly far from my main gig 'cause i mean, i started from fanon, so. ahahah. *coughs*
and yeah, i know what you mean about it being the high point. *gleeful* heeeeee! i feel a bit of slightly sadistic glee at my inner!draco, 'cause that means he'd begun to crack, dear boy.
CRACK, draco, CRACK!! *giggles*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 10:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-09-04 11:22 pm (UTC)No H/D fic is IC? Does that mean that no H/D fic is even believable? Maybe by IC you mean one hundred percent, indistinguishable from Rowling, not a word out of place, characterisation-wise. Perfection, in other words, which is by definition unattainable.
So throwing that out the window because it doesn't exist anyway, maybe it's like a spectrum? And 'believability' comes at 92% ICness or whatever? Cause I'm pretty sure I've read fics I consider IC. In fact, I can't read fics that don't reach a very high standard of ICness. You can; I can't. Fuck the writing, I want the characters believable.
(did I e-mail you back? Am too frazzled to remember. Thursday sounds great, if you're sure it's not too big a problem for you. I'll buy you a cup of tea!)
no subject
Date: 2003-09-05 01:08 am (UTC)of course i don't think no fic is in-character-- i was only thinking of long-fic, and the best long-fic is all very idiosyncratic and does interesting things with draco and harry that i feel obscure their canonicalness, either with feel (angst, blood, darkness, poeticism-- all making certain traits stand out a lot more than others, unbalancing the picture) or with focus on certain traits. in terms of saying something is "really -really-" in-character, it'd have to be somewhat "objectively" derived-- not as in, similar to jkr, but as in, clearly related in terms of basic initial characterization more than some perfunctory ways.
but er... i was mostly just exaggerrating for effect to say, "well if you're going to say it sucks, i'll agree everything sucks 'cause i too can raise my bar above everyone's heads, easy enough"~:)
i want the characters believable too; but it really depends on what the writer's going for (comedy? fluff? canon-based extrapolation?), too. but i'm definitely not more harsh than you are in terms of particular stories, i imagine, just in my ideals, which are more er... passionately held. but even so, i am easily persuaded by brilliance of writing~:)
though mostly, as i said, i just vent my spleen indiscriminantly 'cause i'm slightly bitter that no one's written the ideal h/d fic so i don't have to ^^;
but yes! which thursday? there are two, right?
meep :D :D
*beams*
no subject
Date: 2003-09-05 06:12 am (UTC)