~~ bad writers untie! :D

[reenka]

sistermagpie said she's sad because someone said they're sick of h/d because no one writes in-character fic for it. and you know, i'm really wondering why -i'm- still here, in general (right now i'm er... not, that much, but then i'm just distracted). metaphorically speaking. is it the fic, that is so brilliant? is it the tantalizing genius of the analysis? is it even my friends in the fandom?

ha. to me it doesn't matter how harry & draco's get butchered as long as -i- see them in a certain way, as long as -i- exist; i would be a fandom of one. i would have jumped ship AGES ago if i was just saying "well how in-character does the fic get", because it doesn't. yes, we all know that in-character h/d fic doesn't really exist if you're picky about it. doesn't take very long to figure that out, man. there's some -great writing- in this pairing, some of the -best- writing, some of the most passionate writing. plus i adore them and the possibility of what they could be.

i think most people aren't -in- "the ship" as far as "the h/d fandom" very much unless they're newbies or really obsessively passionate (ie, they're the writers, not the readers, usually). either that, or people stay for certain particular wip's that keep their faith alive or something. but really, the majority of h/d fans seem to be... not very discriminating. a lot of the discriminating writers had their major productive periods more than a year ago, before ootp and maybe during and right after gof. right now-- it's mostly the newbies. it's not about being in-character and brilliantly rendered and really believable. i mean, if you want canon-believable, for most people that doesn't equal enemy-slash. well, usually.

i guess that while i find getting bored of monotony a reasonable explanation for not reading a certain pairing anymore, the whole "none of it is good" doesn't really seem to work. the majority of everything is pretty much crap anyway. i mean, how can you even justify having high expectations? in fact, the writing in -every- pairing, the fact that brilliant writing -exists- in the first place, already more than justifies and fulfills my expectations. sure, it would be -great- if fic existed that satisfied the canonists and the redemptionists and the smut-fiends and the believable-build-up people all at once-- but the more specific your desires, the more the answer becomes: write it yourself.

people write what they want to write, and partly what they want to read. if no stringently in-character h/d fic exists, this means the demand is low, since even amidst all the piles of crap, the talent is nevertheless high. i guess it's just vaguely surprising that one would seriously -expect- certain things from the fics. i mean, i get upset at bad characterization all the time, but i only get upset because i see so much potential, because i still -want- and need to basically see what amounts to my own vision. and if your own vision is what you need, and you don't share or agree with the majority, then you probably have always known that (well, i have).

might as well be yet another bad writer than a continuously disenfranchised and dissatisfied good reader, i would say.~:)
~~

also. cc's `a lot to be upset about' is the best thing since sliced bread. it is also draco/ginny. muwahahaha. with a side of comedic!draco/snape, which i -really- didn't think could be done. heeee. loveloveloveloveit. want to slash it, except not. i ship non-slashed h+d, eheheh :D

Comments

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

*waves hello*

That would be me, of course. Was pointed here by a friend.

I have some thoughts on what you've written; however, I must first ask you to clarify whether or not at this point you've actually read canon? Because not very long ago, you duly admitted you had not, and at that time did not feel reading canon was necessary for character analysis. And I'll tell you right now, I wholeheartedly disagree with this premise at a fundamental level.

I ask this not to be bitchy, but rather to have a full picture of where you're coming from, for there are two issues I see in your post: characterization and writing ability.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hi~:)
meep.
er.... did i ever actually say that reading canon was not necessary for character analysis? i feel like it's all a game of telephone by this point, but i -think- i'd just said that it -seems- like i -can- tell what canon's -about- and the major themes, elements and even a lot of the details without having read it -directly- but instead knowing it indirectly. i know a lot of things indirectly, and while it's -better- and of course much more rewarding to go to the source, it's possible to pay attention to the bits of information one finds elsewhere and build a reasonable model. that is to say, if you quizzed me in a class where i listened to conversations, to the instructor and read reviews/etc, i would have been able to pass the quizz and perhaps spot others' errors, even though i probably wouldn't have been able to write a 30 page paper-- or even a 10 page paper-- without being hugely general and reliant on archetypes and general psychology.

it is still enough to write very satisfactory fic with only a basic knowledge of character traits and psychology in general, which most people do not possess even having read the books 2-3 times, simply because their minds don't retain information as well as they could. i'm only arguing this because it seems like a valid point in general, not necessarily re: in character pairing fics. i feel reading isn't as important as -knowing-. just because you read doesn't mean you know and you can know without reading, just not as well as you would otherwise, but still better than a lot of other people. you know?

also, i never even gave characterization feedback to people, i only give general storytelling feedback usually. people notice that i had ideas on characterization they agreed with, but it's not like i went around saying, "ha! i haven't read them and i'm a genius!".

anyway, i've read them ^^;
to me, writing ability augments and sometimes supercedes someone's characterization ability in a particular story. also, if someone has little writing ability, their characterization will almost always also suck. i've never seen a story carried on in-character writing alone (i can't even conceive of such a thing). also, in-characterness is significantly subjective, and perfection can only be attained if you wrote it yourself, i would imagine, unless you lowered your standards. things were smelling fishy to me even -before- my standards rose after direct reading, but that probably says even more about general fic quality than about me ><;
heh.

~reena

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

i feel like it's all a game of telephone by this point

In my case, I am referring to the LJ conversations (Cassie's and Aja's journals, IIRC) that took place back . . . well, whenever they did :D regarding your participation on the Draco panel (which I did see) at Nimbus; at that time you had not read canon, and the message you purveyed at the time came across as you felt it was unnecessary to have read canon to extrapolate accurate characterizations of canon characters. That was then.

You've said you have now read all five books, so that lends more credibility to your argument IMO (because I am an unabashed canon whore to some extent).

That said . . . er. . . I've never had to say this before in an LJ comment, but I honestly am not understanding your point. I've read through it quite a few times now, and I am just not getting it. So I'll say this, regarding my own post:

-In my comments about Harry/Draco fic, I was not talking about you specifically.

-Because authors enjoy and choose to use over-used formulaic story arcs does not make them bad writers; bad writing is definitely subjective.

-If others enjoy formulaic H/D stories, that is certainly their perogative; as is it my perogative to reject such fics on a fundamental level as being OOC. Fic choices are certainly unrelated to an author's and a reader's character.

To sum: My comments were not directed at any author in particular. I do not agree that canon is extraneous to proper characterization. People are free to read, write and enjoy what they will. It's all subjective.

Ta,

~Slytherincess

(ps: If this sound abrupt, it is not intended to be so. I'm tired, crabby, and have a sour stomach! Oh, and I love to wank in general, so take me with a grain of salt :D ). I'm a wanktacular.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

ha, yes, i often get confusing to people. it is the few and the mighty(?) or just really strange who manage to always plow through my obscurities. er. but i wasn't saying (was i?) that your post was about me or about anyone's character. how did i imply that? *is lost*

hee.
um...
so yeah, no need to think i'm offended(?) because i felt you somehow targeted me or my or anyone's reading choices. i am completely general in approach so i worry about things on a level that is at a remove from any particular person, and take it "personally" even if it has nothing to do with being personal. i take ideas personally, but that has nothing to do with whoever brings them up. does that make sense?

i also know what you were referring to, as far as my comments on ivy & cassie's lj's. how can i not? everyone kind of jumped down my throat. it would be hard to forget.

to slightly re-iterate my earlier point, i was talking about my capacity to comprehend the content of a text ("hp canon" in this case) without reading the source (the actual books, in this case) directly but rather reading commentary (like cliffs notes, for example, not that i read them) and discussion and multiple references to it in visual and textual and conversational forms. this isn't a totally radical concept. i myself have passed classes based solely on conversation and general associated knowledge; people surmise historical facts based on later records-- this is what's called circumstantial evidence. so i would agree that canon is necessary, just that there is more ways to know it than simply reading it. another point was that plenty of people don't know it even though they -do- read it. does that make more sense?
~~

"formulaic" implies plot-devices more than characterization issues. i certainly dislike formulaic anything, because it's sloppy and bad writing in my opinion, since by definition it was produced "from formula", meaning little or no creative thought was involved. if a fic isn't using creative thought, it's bad, end of story.

i would never -dream- of saying that -anything- to do with fic has -anything- to do with a writer's or a reader's character, unless by "character" you mean "not a very good writer" or "not a very discerning reader". which is a reflection on them the way liking green is a reflection on someone: a very small one, but theoretically possible.

"story arcs" refers to plot (formulaic), not characterization, usually. i mean, for that you'd have character arcs. i admit most character arcs in the h/d section of the hp fandom don't start from what i would consider valid canonical roots.

my point in the post was, that was always the case, and it was always obvious if you read even 5 of the best h/d fics out there, unless they're very short, but those don't have character arcs. the long fics are almost all unfinished at this point, and the ones that aren't could never have been said to have been canonically rigorous, ever. my overall thing was, "why is this a surprise?" basically~:)

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Am oh so dead. Will respond more in-depth tomorrow; however, let me clarify one thing:

No, of course you didn't directly state that my comments on my own LJ were directed at you. What I meant to say was my comments on the subject in general are not directed at any one individual author. I think that's a more concise way of putting it.

Anyhow, more tomorrow!

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

Well, time got away from me on this subject! It is an interesting debate to me, and I'm sorry I didn't follow up with you on it. I think the mood has likely passed by now; however, I didn't want you to think I was deliberately ignoring the discussion. Real life just got in the way! *glomps*