(no subject)

[reenka]

Skimming the comments to this post about the increasing potential for slash mainstreaming, it occurs to me that there's a difference between not liking to read slash as a genre ('cause you're just so painfully hetero it hurts or are a canon whore... and I say that lovingly) and not supporting it. :/

Maybe I've just lost what little patience I had after seeing this post by Mairead/Aristide (one of my favorite Highlander/Sentinel writers) about the homophobia rampant in Santa Barbara. I know it's unrelated, but it's exactly the sort of thing that's related to absolutely everything, every little detail in terms of how people think on many issues. Prejudice in general, no matter what kind, is such a wide-ranging and complex issue; you can't pinpoint it and eliminate it in one place-- it'll always pop up in another. And people are so well-meaning these days, so blase and PC about it, but that doesn't change my feeling that you should support slash (with whatever literary caveats) just on principle. Just to say it's, you know, okay and not take that for granted.

I dunno.

On the other hand, I don't want slash to go mainstream; I don't want the media attention, and even moreso the courts' attention. Then again, I don't think we -need- the mainstream-- it's not like they can give us anything we don't already have quite enough of, 'cause the people who were going to find that obscure little manga fandom probably would anyway and the 25-30% new laypeople into HP or like, House or something who might join... uh, well, I'm not so enamoured of fandom size/loudness/etc that I think it should grow and multiply like the proverbial Blob from Outer Space. Plus, the more mainstream you go the more people try to make money off you, and that... they already do enough of that. I mean, in many ways, fandom (the cons, the self-produced zines, the net community-- all of it) is by definition a grass-roots sort of thing; it's 'for the people by the people', and going mainstream definitely means tempting The Powers That Be to mess with this dynamic & our freedoms. Privacy isn't even an issue here; give the mainstream media a bone & they'll take your leg off, that's the issue. :/

Oh, and I feel the mainstreaming of BL manga & manga in general is totally different-- it's not a grass-roots thing by nature so much as necessity; while I still prefer to get my manga for free and feel there's still not enough diversity & market competition to make sure I get the translation/editing quality & selection I want to see-- manga is by nature a product. I like the BL fandom but can really take it or leave it-- I mean, it mostly consists of fangirl squeeing about hotness anyway. Slash is qualitatively different; while it's not original the way one's own novel would be, the writing/reading is only one part of a triad-- watching/reading canon, interacting with fans and fanfic/vids/art. With manga scanlations, there's just... y'know, manga, whether or not it's professional or amateur (sort of the way you have amateur porn even though there's tons of 'professional' porn, ahahah).

Comments

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

But... I was carefully not saying that 'saying X means X person = homophobe'-- just that if they're not, it would really help if they showed their support, society being what it is (cue example with Santa Barbara), see? They don't have to read it, they don't have to enjoy it, they don't have to think it's 'right' for their canon or their characters-- all fine. But slash itself is a concept, a way of looking at characters in theory (in practice it's many things-- not only porn, and not only whatever it is in that person's fandom, for instance); in terms of concept, it addresses issues other people-- in society at large, when relating to fandom-- would respond to based on its homosexual references & elements.

So, I feel like if the person involved -isn't- homophobic, they should show a very limited support & understanding not of the value of slash but of the people's right to slash/write porn about other people's characters, barring creator interference (since it may very well get to that point).

The truth is, (as I sort of said) this is probably just me being tired of & frustrated with what clearly -is- homophobia in the real world (as I linked to); I wish we could all just-- stop dealing with it; I wish I could be -sure- that it's not something all that common in fandom. I wish I -could- take that for granted, and I can't. It's not that slashers are always some poor persecuted minority-- this -is- fandom-- but in regards to society at large, the dynamic immediately changes, and the most dominant slash community would blow away in the wind if it went mainstream (in terms of percentages).

Asking for people to please make sure to just... mention that they think writing about two boys together = okay? That is not too much to ask, because otherwise I feel the lack of support rather than just lack of interest/approval; at least, I feel 'support' & 'approval' aren't the same thing in this context. I dunno.

In this specific case (in the comment to the post I linked), I feel I was justified-- not in outright labelling some stranger a homophobe, but in saying their dialectic had issues, I guess.

[theredwepainted]

Okay so, I'm half-asleep today and thus totally likely to have completely misinterpreted you, HAHAHA. I'm going to go back and reread but I figured I'd get that right out there. :p

[theredwepainted]

Okay, first of all, having looked back over this post and the comments, the whole disapproving attitude = homophobic concern came more from comments (and old conversations ghosting me, I suspect, but mostly comments upthread) than from the original post itself. Because there seems to be a repeated sentiment that if people don't like slash, but aren't homophobic, they wouldn't need to TALK ABOUT their dislike of slash, which I'm just not sure is true.

And I am sort of seeing ghosts of that here, except in an even more powerful way because "if you don't like slash, but aren't homophobic, you wouldn't feel the need to talk about it in a negative way" is being taken a step further into "if you don't like slash, but aren't homophobic, you SHOULD talk about it in a POSITIVE way," and I'm not really feeling that. Even if it IS in a very limited way I'm still not feeling it.

Because really, what if they don't think it's okay? Does that necessarily mean that they are against actual gay relationships? I don't think it does. So I mean, why should they need to defend their real world views based on their position on fiction?

Also, again, you'd need to defend slash - I'm certainly pro-slash by some definitions and slash-neutral by others; I can imagine that there are people who are pro-slash by some definitions and anti-slash by others.

But slash itself is a concept, a way of looking at characters in theory

This is what really interests me, because I have no real understanding of what concept/way of looking at characters you mean.

I don't know. Maybe I'm still missing the point - very possible. I'm still half-asleep. O_o

[theredwepainted]

Because really, what if they don't think it's okay?

To clarify, what if they don't think SLASH is okay, not what if they don't think writing about guys together is okay.

Because I'm not really sure it's the same thing? If someone is uncomfortable with anyone ever writing about gay relationships that's an entirely different thing than someone being uncomfortable with slash in specific although, again, that's going to depend on the definition of slash used.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I just feel jumpy about whatever definition and would rather be reassured whatever the case, just because of the way... society is, and people are, and no matter what I can't assume they -don't- mean they think writing about guys together is not okay. Uh. Not that I want to encourage people to be the equivalent of PC... which is sort of what I'm doing... arg. Anyway, will lock this 'cause it's not thought out & just me grumbling, really, 'cause I'm sick of comments like that one I linked to.

[theredwepainted]

Yeah, i get the grumbling. The posts irked me, too - there was one comment about how they didn't want slash to go mainstream because they didn't want to be associated with it or something, and that's kinda gee thanks for sharing :|.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's the one I meant; I was trying to think the best of that person, so it really would've helped if they clarified and said (in a believable way) that Hey, But Boys Together Is Great, I'm Just A Canon-Whore/Het-shipper/Whatever. I dunno :/

[theredwepainted]

Gotcha.

You know, as nice as it would be to be able to assume that people aren't homophobic, it's probably best if we don't assume that. Because anyone can say, "I'M NOT ANTIGAY OR ANYTHING" even if they are - see the person in the Wet Spots story who, in all sincerity, said she wasn't antigay and was very liberal, but just doesn't want it like, you know, OBVIOUS OR ANYTHING. Yeah that's real liberal, fuck you too.

(Now I'm getting alway from philosophical and more to grr. LOL)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah... it's sort of like, my struggle to think the best of people fails sometimes, and I WANT HELP :))

...Man, that Wet Spots story pissed me off so much, and I still more irritated that the comments were so laidback & 'oh, well, great that you got the gig, eh?'. That supposedly-gay-friendly bar owner drove me to a height of righteous fury I try not to reach 'cause it makes me... crank(ier) than usual to the point where I feel I should -do- something. No one wants Activist!Reena... you just know I'd be a menace :))

[theredwepainted]

I DON'T EVEN TRY TO THINK THE BEST OF PEOPLE, LMAO.

I'd pay to see you get all activist.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Nooooo. :(( Ahahah, I was on that path, sort of, in adolescence. I think I just... okay, normally I'm mild-mannered and patient with people, but when I really believe something is Wrong and people should Wake The Fuck Up, I do not go gentle into any good night :)) Even in fandom, look at all my rants about fanon!Draco, ahahahalfksalkfjafkajfsa

Anyway, I think I would be more of one, except I see too many problems and too few solutions, and get overwhelmed. Like the person who tries to do/fix/understand everything at once and gets fried mixed with the person who's both super-compassionate so they're all bleeding heart liberal and super-impatient/independent, so they're all 'GET OFF YOUR FUCKING BUTTS AND DO IT FOR YOURSELF 'CAUSE I'M NOT DOING IT FOR YOU, YOU MORONS'... heh. -.-;;;

*shuts that little Pandora's Box quietly* :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, uh... I did say I was responding to the comments, it's just I linked to the whole post 'cause I didn't want to single out a person -.-;;; And it's not like they'd have to talk about slash in 'a positive way' all thet time-- it's entirely a matter of context, of social context specifically, where other people (in the mainstream) may make it a gay-rights issue somehow because society doesn't get fic but it gets that it's 'gay porn' or whatever, whether it's actually porn or not.

Anyway, by 'positive' way, I was meaning not approval or saying it's good & you like it, but merely, you know, if in public or mixed groups, specifying what you dislike-- like, not the 'boys together part in itself' would be awesome. I'm not demanding this, just saying it would be nice; just a show of support from people who're not 'a given'. It would be nice to feel that people can be accepting & supportive even without the excuse of themselves being implicated & involved in the hotness of the fictional buttsex or whatever.

...it's funny how I mean all of this & don't say it until pressed & assume it's all implicit somehow. Oh *sigh*.

The 'looking at characters' thing is just to separate it from the -practice- of actual writing (which one is free to dislike/disapprove of) and the actual canon source involved. Slashing-- badfic and porn and all that taken away-- is just a way of perceiving the show. Slash happens in the viewers'/readers' head, and while you may disagree with a specific application or the lit-crit theory that makes it 'okay' in a given case, in general, I think slash itself cannot be 'wrong', not when it's just a subjective response to canon. Since by its initial nature, within the slasher themselves, it's an emotional subjective response, I guess.

[theredwepainted]

Okay the whole adding an "it's not the guys together part" thing I could almost get behind EXCEPT that I've seen people say that, and generally the reaction of readers was to assume the poster was being defensive and trying to head off claims that they're homophobic even though they actually are. It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation at that point.

And okay, the whole way of perceiving the show thing. In theory that's part of what it can be, but I think in practice it's generally... notsomuch that. And I think a LOT of people who are anti-slash are actually more anti-gratuitously-changing-a-character's-orientation-to-get-off. Which, you're right, isn't everything slash about and, I'll go ahead and add, isn't actually WRONG TO DO (at least... I don't think it is?) but at the same time, not everyone is going to think that's a good thing. And I think that, especially outside the slash subfandoms, there is a lot of flat out misunderstanding about what slash it so in a sense there's an ignorance factor in play.

Also, also... okay I'm going to speak from personal experience here: I often have trouble respecting other people's views, because the very nature of my own approach (Author right, everyone else - including me - wrong) pretty much necessitates that I think... everyone who is getting into things the author didn't put in there is wrong. (Wrong in the factual sense, not wrong in the moral sense.)

My workaround for this is that I try to respect the right of other people to use other approaches, even if I can't exactly respect what they come up with through that approach. Does that make sense?

But, I think that's where a lot of people stumble - they assume their approach is the only correct approach, or they try not to assume that but can't get past that initial reaction. I think that's where a lot of this stuff comes from, and the fact that fandom will often reinforce/applaud one "this is just bad" view while mocking another just muddies the waters.

I feel like this originally had a point, but I've lost it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah-- some ignorance is definitely involved, but this realization doesn't help 'cause uh, the only thing that annoys me more than prejudiced people is self-righteous ignorant people-- and isn't that another word for 'prejudice' anyway? :)) But you're right that slash isn't always sincere perception of canon, obviously-- it can be wilfull sexual twisting for kink, it can even be apathetic (like me, I just read fic for shows I haven't even watched, ahahaha, and when I -do- slash in my head, it doesn't tend to have a connection between that & writing/reading fic-- which I choose based less on response to canon and more on whether I'd like the fanon/fannish end of things... but that's a tangent). Aaand, yeah, it's damned either way, so perhaps people who annoy me 'cause they're self-righteous twats should JUST SHUT UP, eh?? :)) Er. *coughs*

Also, I feel even if I DID believe slash was wrong in terms of authorial intent/lit-crit theory & that sort of angle, ummm, I'd still support it in that sense that I support Supernatural incest & mpreg & Harry/Hermione fanfic (which is flat-out BATSHIT INSANE). It's my little part for the community I sort of feel a part of, I guess. I give a little. AWWWWW :D :D :D :D :D I mean. Yeah, that's why I stressed the external/mainstream relationship factor.

I mean, I'm certain H/Hr is wrong and not the 'correct approach to canon' if you do see it there, but. I'm not going to saw off that aspect of fandom if I wanted to justify it to outsiders the way gay-rights groups shouldn't saw off pedophile/leather/BDSM/etc fringe groups to fit in the mainstream, I guess.

[theredwepainted]

and isn't that another word for 'prejudice' anyway

Ahahaha, you say that a lot! I don't really think so? I mean it's related in that a lot of prejudice comes from ignorance but you can be prejudiced without being ignorant or self-righteous, too. I mean, you can just be an ass.

Also, I feel even if I DID believe slash was wrong in terms of authorial intent/lit-crit theory & that sort of angle, ummm, I'd still support it in that sense that I support Supernatural incest & mpreg & Harry/Hermione fanfic

Oh yeah, I think you totally would. I do too, although less because I don't want to cut off fringe groups and more because I really, really believe that what people want to write isn't my business and doesn't necessarily reflect on their real life, and any fantasy is fine even if it's a fantasy I don't get.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

If you're prejudiced and not ignorant, you're kind of a crazy person, I think :)) Just being an ass is sort of like... being 'not nice' or 'not considerate' or just obnoxious and rude or whatever, even if moreso to certain groups-- but then I wouldn't call you prejudiced, I'd call you an ass. If you're prejudiced but not self-righteous, I feel it's a matter of ignorance, or just time-- 'cause if you're not self-righteous, you have to be open to changing your opinion on things you get proof are wrong. If you just believe something wrongly, that's technically prejudice but I don't think it's... the vicious/dangerous kind, because as soon as something happens to open your eyes, you change. And so life itself should change you, or something; it's more a matter of inexperience. Willful ignorance is like a weed-- you cut it, but it comes back again and again, because there's some other (ego?) issue there.

Haha, I'm just feeling especially communal whenever I'm forced into an 'us vs them' mentality as a slasher vs. non-slashers. Generally I'm just with you in the supporting free-spech/free-kink thing :>

[theredwepainted]

HAHAH well there are crazy people in the world, unfortunately. That said, I generally agree with you, I'm just being all technical and stuff. Ignorance is problematic in general, because people who are ignorant are generally unaware of their own ignorance - they can't really think "gee, I'm a moron, I ought to fix that!" because they don't really realize they are. And then often, by the time they do know, they're so set in their views that they're more likely to assimilate than accomodate.

I never feel communal at all, HAHHA. It's kind of funny, because I follow metafandom and there are all those discussions about what fandom, as a community, should do and what fans, as part of a community, owes to other fans? And recently there's been some discussion of the fact that not all fans even accept that they're part of a community and I'm like yep, that's me. I'm all for the Lockeian state of chaos wherein no fan owes anything to any other fan and we all have to look out for ourselves. (Brian would be so proud?)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well... not to put too fine a point on it, but it's not that I'm about entitlement-- I don't expect or demand anything, I just think it would be nice & get irritated by... irritating people. Plus I -have- had more experiences with fannish community-type enclaves 'cause I've met enough fandom people & gone to a con & such. I -feel- connected 'cause I simply know a lot of fans even if by reputation & even if a few fics, I'd read in a good number of fandoms. So I don't think I -can- maintain that sense of distance-- it's like, I know these people too well, or something -.-;;

[theredwepainted]

Well, I think in a lot of ways it's just an outlook thing, not to mention a function of personality. I never feel connected to people, even when I actually, physically, hang out with them all the time. I feel very much like... okay just because we share an interest or two doesn't mean I'm part of some kind of community. But this is because I'm like cold and asocial, so that's fine.

(At this point I was thinking sort of in terms of warnings and the recent 'people shouldn't take their stuff down because they owe people the opportunity to read it when they want to' kerfluffle, though.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh, in this we're actually pretty similar, with me being only veeeery slightly more social/less introverted, so I dig ya. Really comparing our levels of introversion is like comparing to REALLY REALLY slow turtles. Like, sure, one turtle is slower than the other, but how much of a real-world effect does that difference have?? hehehe

I think being Fi matters more in terms of the connection I -feel- but not the connection I actually exhibit in either behavior or expectation, except that I don't think I'm asking for that much, really? I mean, I don't need sonnets, but some basic courtesy/understanding seems... nice? heh

[theredwepainted]

I think it depends on what we're talking about courtesy/understanding OF, really. Because like, if we're talking about things like not being disrespectful of a person then that's just general manners, but if we're talking about what they can do with their own writing on their own webspace/journal or what they should put in their own fic headers then it becomes more problematic.

Also, in some cases, it's really a matter of practicality because you're never going to get everyone to agree to the same standards so assuming that they'll do what you (general you) consider reasonable is never going to be anything but frustrating. And at this point we've totally drifted from the original point with regard to communities, but mostly because I'm not sure what kind of courtesy/understanding you're talking about so I can't really comment.

(And you're right, HAHHA. about the turtles.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, with me it's just always implicit that 'courtesy/understanding' will never impinge on personal freedoms. In general terms, I just believe in 'do what you will an' it harm none', y'know :> And sometimes just 'Do What Thou Wilt', a more dangerous philosophy, but this is in the Crowlean sense of first fully knowing what you Will. But anyway, that's a tangent; suffice to say, a moralist I am not :))

I do sometimes have residual problems with wanting people to be reasonable, but then, uh... I think it's hard to avoid that no matter what; people will always find a way to somehow surprise you by being even worse than you expected them to be, no matter how low your expectations :)) People are talented that way :)) But yeah, I just meant thinking about one's audience, being somewhat educated/aware of the issues in terms of fandom that you're commenting on... unreasonable, I know :>