(no subject)

[reenka]

Skimming the comments to this post about the increasing potential for slash mainstreaming, it occurs to me that there's a difference between not liking to read slash as a genre ('cause you're just so painfully hetero it hurts or are a canon whore... and I say that lovingly) and not supporting it. :/

Maybe I've just lost what little patience I had after seeing this post by Mairead/Aristide (one of my favorite Highlander/Sentinel writers) about the homophobia rampant in Santa Barbara. I know it's unrelated, but it's exactly the sort of thing that's related to absolutely everything, every little detail in terms of how people think on many issues. Prejudice in general, no matter what kind, is such a wide-ranging and complex issue; you can't pinpoint it and eliminate it in one place-- it'll always pop up in another. And people are so well-meaning these days, so blase and PC about it, but that doesn't change my feeling that you should support slash (with whatever literary caveats) just on principle. Just to say it's, you know, okay and not take that for granted.

I dunno.

On the other hand, I don't want slash to go mainstream; I don't want the media attention, and even moreso the courts' attention. Then again, I don't think we -need- the mainstream-- it's not like they can give us anything we don't already have quite enough of, 'cause the people who were going to find that obscure little manga fandom probably would anyway and the 25-30% new laypeople into HP or like, House or something who might join... uh, well, I'm not so enamoured of fandom size/loudness/etc that I think it should grow and multiply like the proverbial Blob from Outer Space. Plus, the more mainstream you go the more people try to make money off you, and that... they already do enough of that. I mean, in many ways, fandom (the cons, the self-produced zines, the net community-- all of it) is by definition a grass-roots sort of thing; it's 'for the people by the people', and going mainstream definitely means tempting The Powers That Be to mess with this dynamic & our freedoms. Privacy isn't even an issue here; give the mainstream media a bone & they'll take your leg off, that's the issue. :/

Oh, and I feel the mainstreaming of BL manga & manga in general is totally different-- it's not a grass-roots thing by nature so much as necessity; while I still prefer to get my manga for free and feel there's still not enough diversity & market competition to make sure I get the translation/editing quality & selection I want to see-- manga is by nature a product. I like the BL fandom but can really take it or leave it-- I mean, it mostly consists of fangirl squeeing about hotness anyway. Slash is qualitatively different; while it's not original the way one's own novel would be, the writing/reading is only one part of a triad-- watching/reading canon, interacting with fans and fanfic/vids/art. With manga scanlations, there's just... y'know, manga, whether or not it's professional or amateur (sort of the way you have amateur porn even though there's tons of 'professional' porn, ahahah).

Comments

[theredwepainted]

Okay the whole adding an "it's not the guys together part" thing I could almost get behind EXCEPT that I've seen people say that, and generally the reaction of readers was to assume the poster was being defensive and trying to head off claims that they're homophobic even though they actually are. It's kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation at that point.

And okay, the whole way of perceiving the show thing. In theory that's part of what it can be, but I think in practice it's generally... notsomuch that. And I think a LOT of people who are anti-slash are actually more anti-gratuitously-changing-a-character's-orientation-to-get-off. Which, you're right, isn't everything slash about and, I'll go ahead and add, isn't actually WRONG TO DO (at least... I don't think it is?) but at the same time, not everyone is going to think that's a good thing. And I think that, especially outside the slash subfandoms, there is a lot of flat out misunderstanding about what slash it so in a sense there's an ignorance factor in play.

Also, also... okay I'm going to speak from personal experience here: I often have trouble respecting other people's views, because the very nature of my own approach (Author right, everyone else - including me - wrong) pretty much necessitates that I think... everyone who is getting into things the author didn't put in there is wrong. (Wrong in the factual sense, not wrong in the moral sense.)

My workaround for this is that I try to respect the right of other people to use other approaches, even if I can't exactly respect what they come up with through that approach. Does that make sense?

But, I think that's where a lot of people stumble - they assume their approach is the only correct approach, or they try not to assume that but can't get past that initial reaction. I think that's where a lot of this stuff comes from, and the fact that fandom will often reinforce/applaud one "this is just bad" view while mocking another just muddies the waters.

I feel like this originally had a point, but I've lost it.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah-- some ignorance is definitely involved, but this realization doesn't help 'cause uh, the only thing that annoys me more than prejudiced people is self-righteous ignorant people-- and isn't that another word for 'prejudice' anyway? :)) But you're right that slash isn't always sincere perception of canon, obviously-- it can be wilfull sexual twisting for kink, it can even be apathetic (like me, I just read fic for shows I haven't even watched, ahahaha, and when I -do- slash in my head, it doesn't tend to have a connection between that & writing/reading fic-- which I choose based less on response to canon and more on whether I'd like the fanon/fannish end of things... but that's a tangent). Aaand, yeah, it's damned either way, so perhaps people who annoy me 'cause they're self-righteous twats should JUST SHUT UP, eh?? :)) Er. *coughs*

Also, I feel even if I DID believe slash was wrong in terms of authorial intent/lit-crit theory & that sort of angle, ummm, I'd still support it in that sense that I support Supernatural incest & mpreg & Harry/Hermione fanfic (which is flat-out BATSHIT INSANE). It's my little part for the community I sort of feel a part of, I guess. I give a little. AWWWWW :D :D :D :D :D I mean. Yeah, that's why I stressed the external/mainstream relationship factor.

I mean, I'm certain H/Hr is wrong and not the 'correct approach to canon' if you do see it there, but. I'm not going to saw off that aspect of fandom if I wanted to justify it to outsiders the way gay-rights groups shouldn't saw off pedophile/leather/BDSM/etc fringe groups to fit in the mainstream, I guess.

[theredwepainted]

and isn't that another word for 'prejudice' anyway

Ahahaha, you say that a lot! I don't really think so? I mean it's related in that a lot of prejudice comes from ignorance but you can be prejudiced without being ignorant or self-righteous, too. I mean, you can just be an ass.

Also, I feel even if I DID believe slash was wrong in terms of authorial intent/lit-crit theory & that sort of angle, ummm, I'd still support it in that sense that I support Supernatural incest & mpreg & Harry/Hermione fanfic

Oh yeah, I think you totally would. I do too, although less because I don't want to cut off fringe groups and more because I really, really believe that what people want to write isn't my business and doesn't necessarily reflect on their real life, and any fantasy is fine even if it's a fantasy I don't get.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

If you're prejudiced and not ignorant, you're kind of a crazy person, I think :)) Just being an ass is sort of like... being 'not nice' or 'not considerate' or just obnoxious and rude or whatever, even if moreso to certain groups-- but then I wouldn't call you prejudiced, I'd call you an ass. If you're prejudiced but not self-righteous, I feel it's a matter of ignorance, or just time-- 'cause if you're not self-righteous, you have to be open to changing your opinion on things you get proof are wrong. If you just believe something wrongly, that's technically prejudice but I don't think it's... the vicious/dangerous kind, because as soon as something happens to open your eyes, you change. And so life itself should change you, or something; it's more a matter of inexperience. Willful ignorance is like a weed-- you cut it, but it comes back again and again, because there's some other (ego?) issue there.

Haha, I'm just feeling especially communal whenever I'm forced into an 'us vs them' mentality as a slasher vs. non-slashers. Generally I'm just with you in the supporting free-spech/free-kink thing :>

[theredwepainted]

HAHAH well there are crazy people in the world, unfortunately. That said, I generally agree with you, I'm just being all technical and stuff. Ignorance is problematic in general, because people who are ignorant are generally unaware of their own ignorance - they can't really think "gee, I'm a moron, I ought to fix that!" because they don't really realize they are. And then often, by the time they do know, they're so set in their views that they're more likely to assimilate than accomodate.

I never feel communal at all, HAHHA. It's kind of funny, because I follow metafandom and there are all those discussions about what fandom, as a community, should do and what fans, as part of a community, owes to other fans? And recently there's been some discussion of the fact that not all fans even accept that they're part of a community and I'm like yep, that's me. I'm all for the Lockeian state of chaos wherein no fan owes anything to any other fan and we all have to look out for ourselves. (Brian would be so proud?)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well... not to put too fine a point on it, but it's not that I'm about entitlement-- I don't expect or demand anything, I just think it would be nice & get irritated by... irritating people. Plus I -have- had more experiences with fannish community-type enclaves 'cause I've met enough fandom people & gone to a con & such. I -feel- connected 'cause I simply know a lot of fans even if by reputation & even if a few fics, I'd read in a good number of fandoms. So I don't think I -can- maintain that sense of distance-- it's like, I know these people too well, or something -.-;;

[theredwepainted]

Well, I think in a lot of ways it's just an outlook thing, not to mention a function of personality. I never feel connected to people, even when I actually, physically, hang out with them all the time. I feel very much like... okay just because we share an interest or two doesn't mean I'm part of some kind of community. But this is because I'm like cold and asocial, so that's fine.

(At this point I was thinking sort of in terms of warnings and the recent 'people shouldn't take their stuff down because they owe people the opportunity to read it when they want to' kerfluffle, though.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh, in this we're actually pretty similar, with me being only veeeery slightly more social/less introverted, so I dig ya. Really comparing our levels of introversion is like comparing to REALLY REALLY slow turtles. Like, sure, one turtle is slower than the other, but how much of a real-world effect does that difference have?? hehehe

I think being Fi matters more in terms of the connection I -feel- but not the connection I actually exhibit in either behavior or expectation, except that I don't think I'm asking for that much, really? I mean, I don't need sonnets, but some basic courtesy/understanding seems... nice? heh

[theredwepainted]

I think it depends on what we're talking about courtesy/understanding OF, really. Because like, if we're talking about things like not being disrespectful of a person then that's just general manners, but if we're talking about what they can do with their own writing on their own webspace/journal or what they should put in their own fic headers then it becomes more problematic.

Also, in some cases, it's really a matter of practicality because you're never going to get everyone to agree to the same standards so assuming that they'll do what you (general you) consider reasonable is never going to be anything but frustrating. And at this point we've totally drifted from the original point with regard to communities, but mostly because I'm not sure what kind of courtesy/understanding you're talking about so I can't really comment.

(And you're right, HAHHA. about the turtles.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, with me it's just always implicit that 'courtesy/understanding' will never impinge on personal freedoms. In general terms, I just believe in 'do what you will an' it harm none', y'know :> And sometimes just 'Do What Thou Wilt', a more dangerous philosophy, but this is in the Crowlean sense of first fully knowing what you Will. But anyway, that's a tangent; suffice to say, a moralist I am not :))

I do sometimes have residual problems with wanting people to be reasonable, but then, uh... I think it's hard to avoid that no matter what; people will always find a way to somehow surprise you by being even worse than you expected them to be, no matter how low your expectations :)) People are talented that way :)) But yeah, I just meant thinking about one's audience, being somewhat educated/aware of the issues in terms of fandom that you're commenting on... unreasonable, I know :>