[rambling on about nothing as usual.]
Aug. 22nd, 2007 02:02 pmYou know, before I spent too long in fandom, I had squicks. Now I just have preferences and a whole lot of pet-peeves, where it's just that you'd have to work harder to please me if I've a peeve about it. Like, y'know, I remember in the good old days, where Kirk/Spock sex pretty much squicked me, even if I liked the idea of the pairing a lot; I couldn't get over my adolescent vision of them. I remember when Ron/Draco and Snape/Draco and even Harry/Hermione seemed Deeply Wrong... and now I just don't prefer them. I remember when H/D was the alpha and omega of my fannish universe and I had all these ideas about how it 'should' and 'shouldn't' be done (and okay, I still have those), but I've become quite lax about thumping my chest and hyperventilating, alas.
Anyway, I meant to talk about a specific comment in this Wincest squick post, but it also made me think a bit, 'cause yeah, the sheer prevalence of that reading of a show's canon bothers me a bit-- though that's my 'canon, bitches!' thing, not any anti-incest squick, exactly; actually, I don't think I've ever had a 'traditional' squick in the sense that it's based on my real-life beliefs (I mean, I tend to like characters in fiction I'd probably clobber in real life, for a start). Like, if it's well-written, anything challenging or transgressive can only make the story more interesting, as far as I'm concerned; for examples, look to the many instances of incest in classic literature and also some of the best genre lit of today (okay, mainly Song of Ice and Fire). I cannot imagine seriously reading something good and then stopping and going, 'but this is WRONG, HOW COULD THIS BE??! NOOOoooo'. If I really felt like that, I mean, I wouldn't have graduated from books for toddlers, because isn't there always something unpleasant and 'wrong' and unfair even in (good and/or classic) children's books?
(Btw, this is where some of my friends woujd just say I'm not a critical enough reader, so I clearly suck. Hehe. Because yeah, while I was careful to say 'well-written' and 'good' stories, the truth is I also suspend a lot of judgment/personal issues/disbelief when reading stuff I just... like a lot for whatever reason. I wouldn't call it a 'kink'; like, I don't have a 'kink' for HP canon, y'know? Most of the time the only reason I'm critical is when I either really love something or really hate it, usually because of aesthetic/story-construction reasons. This mostly applies to stuff that's really bad. How do I explain it. It applies to purple-prosey fantasy books with ass-stupid names & the majority of post-OoTP fanfic I read, hahaha; it very rarely applies to content, in other words, and only to execution-- the big exception being OOCness in fic and stuff I find relentlessly bleak. Because I'm a huge romantic dork. But I try to keep that under control. :P So yeah, it's a personality issue, basically, and one I can't really do anything about, so nyah.)
In any case, I'm veeeery touchy about actually projecting slashiness on any canon... and in fact I can't think of any where I would do so with all honesty. There's liminal cases like Star Trek, The Sentinel and Gundam Wing, but I wouldn't go so far as to explain anything that happened with the characters through that lens. It's just subtext, take it or leave it.
Aaanyway. It's funny because I have the exact opposite reaction-- usually if something squicks me in text/theory, it squicks me less in a visual representation, because I'm more of an aesthete-- I always look at art as an 'art piece' first and a 'statement' second; in other words, I can easily disengage any moral/ethical/other biases and just enjoy the pretty because pretty is what matters with visual media to me. This is why I have no hard pairing preference with fanart, for instance, and why I tolerate and enjoy extreme cheesiness in fanvids of the sort that'd make me run screaming from a fic.
Coincidentally, it's also why the 6A/LJ wank sticks in my craw like mad. It's really the art-critique aspect that drives me mad, the double-standard where fanfic is okay but fanart isn't-- fanart needs to be judged by outsiders who don't have the first clue what they're looking at. That just drives me mad. Visual art just... the idea of judging it in such pedestrian terms without even realizing that's what you're doing-- it makes my blood boil.
Regardless, I meant to just quote
harriet_spy's comment:
To be honest, there's no way you can take a dynamic that hinges even a little bit on transgressiveness, have ten thousand squeeing fangirls stampede over it, and have anything left but flatness.
I just thought that was really... very true. And it really applies to some of my favorite pairings (*cough!*) rather than just Wincest. It's not that I hate fluff... it's that I'm just so bored & frustrated by the sheer glut of narratives that make the transgressive and raw as acceptable and 'easy' as possible. Actually, the reason I wouldn't ship Wincest is probably because you can't reasonably expect it to be remotely healthy or resolvable in any positive way-- and I'm still a romantic. It's kinda figures that the incest is intinsically everyone's problem, but yeah. This definitely reminds of the sheer flatness I felt before I stopped reading H/D altogether; this sense that the pairing has become... completely predictable and 'easy' (in fandom, not in canon). I can't really think of a transgressive pairing that actually consistently captured its own problematic areas... which is why I'm really way too wary to read S/L, but oh well.
Anyway, I meant to talk about a specific comment in this Wincest squick post, but it also made me think a bit, 'cause yeah, the sheer prevalence of that reading of a show's canon bothers me a bit-- though that's my 'canon, bitches!' thing, not any anti-incest squick, exactly; actually, I don't think I've ever had a 'traditional' squick in the sense that it's based on my real-life beliefs (I mean, I tend to like characters in fiction I'd probably clobber in real life, for a start). Like, if it's well-written, anything challenging or transgressive can only make the story more interesting, as far as I'm concerned; for examples, look to the many instances of incest in classic literature and also some of the best genre lit of today (okay, mainly Song of Ice and Fire). I cannot imagine seriously reading something good and then stopping and going, 'but this is WRONG, HOW COULD THIS BE??! NOOOoooo'. If I really felt like that, I mean, I wouldn't have graduated from books for toddlers, because isn't there always something unpleasant and 'wrong' and unfair even in (good and/or classic) children's books?
(Btw, this is where some of my friends woujd just say I'm not a critical enough reader, so I clearly suck. Hehe. Because yeah, while I was careful to say 'well-written' and 'good' stories, the truth is I also suspend a lot of judgment/personal issues/disbelief when reading stuff I just... like a lot for whatever reason. I wouldn't call it a 'kink'; like, I don't have a 'kink' for HP canon, y'know? Most of the time the only reason I'm critical is when I either really love something or really hate it, usually because of aesthetic/story-construction reasons. This mostly applies to stuff that's really bad. How do I explain it. It applies to purple-prosey fantasy books with ass-stupid names & the majority of post-OoTP fanfic I read, hahaha; it very rarely applies to content, in other words, and only to execution-- the big exception being OOCness in fic and stuff I find relentlessly bleak. Because I'm a huge romantic dork. But I try to keep that under control. :P So yeah, it's a personality issue, basically, and one I can't really do anything about, so nyah.)
In any case, I'm veeeery touchy about actually projecting slashiness on any canon... and in fact I can't think of any where I would do so with all honesty. There's liminal cases like Star Trek, The Sentinel and Gundam Wing, but I wouldn't go so far as to explain anything that happened with the characters through that lens. It's just subtext, take it or leave it.
Aaanyway. It's funny because I have the exact opposite reaction-- usually if something squicks me in text/theory, it squicks me less in a visual representation, because I'm more of an aesthete-- I always look at art as an 'art piece' first and a 'statement' second; in other words, I can easily disengage any moral/ethical/other biases and just enjoy the pretty because pretty is what matters with visual media to me. This is why I have no hard pairing preference with fanart, for instance, and why I tolerate and enjoy extreme cheesiness in fanvids of the sort that'd make me run screaming from a fic.
Coincidentally, it's also why the 6A/LJ wank sticks in my craw like mad. It's really the art-critique aspect that drives me mad, the double-standard where fanfic is okay but fanart isn't-- fanart needs to be judged by outsiders who don't have the first clue what they're looking at. That just drives me mad. Visual art just... the idea of judging it in such pedestrian terms without even realizing that's what you're doing-- it makes my blood boil.
Regardless, I meant to just quote
To be honest, there's no way you can take a dynamic that hinges even a little bit on transgressiveness, have ten thousand squeeing fangirls stampede over it, and have anything left but flatness.
I just thought that was really... very true. And it really applies to some of my favorite pairings (*cough!*) rather than just Wincest. It's not that I hate fluff... it's that I'm just so bored & frustrated by the sheer glut of narratives that make the transgressive and raw as acceptable and 'easy' as possible. Actually, the reason I wouldn't ship Wincest is probably because you can't reasonably expect it to be remotely healthy or resolvable in any positive way-- and I'm still a romantic. It's kinda figures that the incest is intinsically everyone's problem, but yeah. This definitely reminds of the sheer flatness I felt before I stopped reading H/D altogether; this sense that the pairing has become... completely predictable and 'easy' (in fandom, not in canon). I can't really think of a transgressive pairing that actually consistently captured its own problematic areas... which is why I'm really way too wary to read S/L, but oh well.
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Date: 2007-08-23 06:17 pm (UTC)Anyway, I was right, or perhaps it's a self-fulfilling prophecy that when you lower your expectations enough, you're never disappointed-- probably a bit of both. I did feel that climax and simultaneous let down that most people felt with DH (though I suppose minus the climax), and I felt it with HBP. I both got what I wanted and not, and after that my 'vision' was lost; I didn't know how to think of Harry with Draco, what tack to take, really, how to change my post-OoTP flaming vision into a dynamic that a) made sense now; b) I loved as much as the post-OoTP dynamic in my head. And while I still loved (love) H/D like crazy, 'thinking of them' in canon is something different. It requires not just love but vision, a sort of belief or conviction, y'know, idealistic in nature (for me,. who's idealistic in nature). My H/D was always crazyintense and I knew Harr y was on the road to control and mastery of the past-- had to be, to be adult enough to kill Voldemort. Draco, I had no clue-- I thought he might be growing up, or might not, but it was clear either way his apex with Harry, his last 'big bang' was when he stomped on Harry's face; I dunno if I 'knew', but I 'felt' or feared or... something. Draco had other fish to fry; the obsessive dynamic had changed, for better or worse, and people saying stuff about Harry being the obsessive one now just hurt my feelings (because it implied he had no good reason to follow him around-- I'm defensive on his behalf, y'know) and made me militantly skeptical in any case.
So yeah, the H+D in DH was actually a relief-- better than I'd hoped for (which I tried realy hard to make 'nothing'), as in it gave me ideas for things (wands!! Malfoy manor!! saving!!), but these are yummy plot ideas, not characterization-driven ideas, if that makes sense. I'm a characterization-driven writer. I will always think Harry needs Draco and vice versa, but it's hard to 'see' it using canon as a launching pad-- not 'subverting' but just using canon. I mean. Still OTP! But notsomuch blazing into the future; just like you, they're my history like HP itself is now-- well--history. *hugs*
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Date: 2007-08-23 06:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-23 07:03 pm (UTC)Just last post I was squeeing about cheesy H/D vids you are totally above, hahah ^^;;; I can see how that sounds like I'm saying that, maybe(?), but I just mean it's a writing thing. I don't know where to go with it, or what I think (yet?) they're 'really' doing in regards to each other in canon... if Harry wonders, I mean... he probably does? But I wanted him to have his eyes peeled open, to have his assumptions blasted, to have his whole world upended, and I wanted that for Draco too. I was never about going quiet into that good night. And post-OoTP, that quietness began to seep in. 'Maturity', 'pity', call it what you will.
But of course there's still love. I just have to regress a bit to get into it. I don't project it into the future as much. I don't construct air-castles like I did post-OoTP-- it's more just going over the memories and old photographs and feeling nostalgic and a little happysad. I dunno. Their fanon story is definitely not ended, but it's more like it's atemporal-- endings and beginnings don't apply anymore. I dunno if there is an ending in my head, anyway-- I'm not saying it's 'ended', just that I don't know where it's going for me. If it's going. Emotionally, I mean; in terms of actual events and such, I have several ideas, haha. Anyway, it's just different levels, really. When I love something, of course I love it forever :)
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Date: 2007-08-23 07:06 pm (UTC)just have to regress a bit to get into it. I don't project it into the future as much. I don't construct air-castles like I did post-OoTP-- it's more just going over the memories and old photographs and feeling nostalgic and a little happysad. I dunno. Their fanon story is definitely not ended, but it's more like it's atemporal-- endings and beginnings don't apply anymore.
:(( REENA. SEE I AM NOT REFUTING WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, I'M JUST TRYING NOT TO HEAR IT YET BECAUSE I FEEL THAT WAY TOO. And I really miss them. :((
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Date: 2007-08-23 07:45 pm (UTC)Wah. :(( I haven't gotten to the point of missing them yet 'cause I have all this stuff to write, haha, so avoidance is easy as procrastination, but I've been 'not projecting' since the end of HBP, so I guess I'm ahead of you on that front. ^^; Instead of looking for hypothetical sappy fics, you should watch some vids. *eyebrow waggle* Though of course my favorites are angst, there's always stuff like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fcs_RnkKOMk&mode=related&search=) & especially this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StcErK-vgv0&NR=1), AHAHAHAHAH :D Disney crack makes it all okay. :>
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Date: 2007-08-23 07:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-23 07:21 pm (UTC)You know though (I'm not refuting either, I'm just trying to see if the things I say are useful) but I wrote a lot of stuff after my first reading of DH to deal with my initial problems and one of the big positive things were that I wanted/was actually happy to recapture all my post-OOTP thoughts about (Draco as the monster, and the shadow, but in general) OOTP Draco, yeah. Of course you've got things to add (the HBP and DH story) but it seems to just work in the direction where it makes that reading easier and give it more pay-off. Like even the expectation of romantic heroism after HBP weren't exactly it.
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Date: 2007-08-23 07:32 pm (UTC)I do love the connection between OoTP!Draco & DH!Draco, but then I loved HBP!Draco, too and thought he was a totally great and natural progression from OoTP except for the bit where he's not bothered with Harry so much & has other problems now :> The romantic heroism talk all went over my head-- I never even began to connect with it, so it's not an issue; I'm just not sure where I or how I see their dynamic in DH. It's hard to imagine Harry would be all that sensitive to Draco's antics if he forgave -Snape-, but of course it was always more personal in a way with Draco. I mean, it's not that I don't see a potential for other people to write stuff, I just don't feel it myself? It's like I love Draco and Harry's stories but I don't know if I see a story for them together. My sort of story, I mean, not like in general.
I was definitely happy with Draco in DH, though. He was just... constantly himself and yet still managed to give little glimmers of something unexpected. You could work with that. Somehow. Not that I know how, but I still like the idea of DH AUs :>
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Date: 2007-08-23 08:00 pm (UTC)I think you can't ignore HBP when you talk about Draco, it's just that it's not some essentialist deal where he's either HBP and DH, it's both. That's way better; it's like when I was talking about Draco saving Goyle... it's a lot more awesome when bravery comes from a guy who screams and squeezes so tightly it hurts and later is still saying he's on the DE side to save his ass. But then I just read a post when someone said they shouldn't be sympathizing with Jaime Lannister, and this movie review where the guy was all like "they're all assholes, what's the point of it" and I want to headdesk x1000.
Plus I think Draco changed, moreso than Harry even. It just wasn't bangy or super-positive and cool and didn't bring him to an openly admirable place.
I don't know about Harry... I mean 1) he seemed pretty emotionally robotic in this book to me when he wasn't having righteous anger and 2) the shadow is a complex archetype so I can still very easily read it there but then I almost expect you to want me to make a case for why it's *the* reading rather than just a possible (sneaky! that's what I like about it... remember that song I talked about on aim?) one.
Like, it's supertrue that Harry has a completely different relationship to Snape, if anything because they're so similar, where Draco is an alien in almost every way. But you know what I mean.or
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Date: 2007-08-23 08:43 pm (UTC)I agree Draco changed... in many little subtle ways, in some more obvious ways in terms of his priorities becoming more clear. With Harry, hahah I don't expect you to illuminate canon!Harry for me :> I don't think he was robotic, though seeing it from your pov I see where you get it... he was so sad/nostalgic about his years in Hogwarts, so frustrated and angry and even needy about Dumbledore, obsessive about the Hallows, scared and impatient while camping, worried about and then lost without Ron. The past was really palpable as a presence-- Harry was thinking about it more than ever, finally asking these hard questions about Dumbledore, finally going to Godric's Hollow, going back to Hogwarts and realizing his connection with it & Tom and Snape-- all these things were strong emotional markers, and I experienced them from Harry's pov. But of course my view of Harry!canon and yours... tend not to coincide, as I said :>
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Date: 2007-08-23 09:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-23 09:49 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-23 07:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-23 07:07 pm (UTC)I shouldn't have said 'just like you', but then you're always saying I'm your one connection to fandom :> Funny, I thought I wasn't really part of fandom for more than a year now :)) Nearly all my friends aren't in fandom, really, and most of them don't even like HP, per se (besides you and a few others). But that doesn't matter-- the point is that my love for canon is totally live & kicking, so I suppose I shouldn't call it history, except that history has many layers, and a lot of them are still alive. :)
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Date: 2007-08-23 07:10 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-23 07:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-23 08:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-08-23 08:19 pm (UTC)It's not stupid, anyway. I feel strongly about it too-- probably more strongly than about 'real life' things, but then I was always like that, haha. I was kinda taken aback/sad when Maya said this is her last fic. But I might have read it if the word 'epilogue' wasn't involved :)) Man. I prefer epilogues to stay far away from fanfics :>
Maybe I should write my own fic to deal with DH more fully.
BUT NO I SHOULD FINISH THE ONES I HAVE lakjsflja. Maybe when they're done, I'll know what to say. Knowing me, it'll probably be gen :> I just got HP paper party plates at the supermarket yesterday 'cause I couldn't resist lkjfaslkjsakjfa oh man.
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Date: 2007-08-24 12:46 am (UTC)I just want them to . . . interact again. I hate the idea that they're going to forget about each other. They aren't. "No one's going anywhere" . . . I wish. :(
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Date: 2007-08-24 12:58 am (UTC)I don't think they'll forget. I mean, they don't mean the same things to each other, but people grow up... which can be worse than forgetting, 'cause you become 'mature' and gain 'perspective', but you can always write some cute yet telling with about Auror!Harry who's not married yet and Ginny who's out of the picture (like, gone for a round-the-world trip to give them both a bit of space before the Big Decision or... whatever) and I'm sure Draco'll come up -somehow- in Harry's business. Heh. He's a Malfoy and I'm sure he'll try something to get his family back in good terms in the wizarding world to get them to the halfway respectable status we see in the epilogue; plus, Harry still has his wand!! I think they all interact with each other at least in some way within their own generation especially, 'cause the Wizarding world is so small and the number of people who are at the forefront of it smaller (and both Draco & Harry mean to be in that number).
So Draco will always be trying to get his own slice of pie that Potter's always going to be interfering with somehow, I'm sure :))
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Date: 2007-08-24 01:03 am (UTC)See, I feel so complicated about what I want from H/D post-DH that I feel like I SHOULD write it, I just . . . don't feel like I have it in me right now. Maybe I don't even have the belief in me, not enough :( We'll always have NA :(
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Date: 2007-08-24 01:15 am (UTC)It'd be neat if Draco was in Australia, but now I'm just thinking of Abaddon :))
I'm skeered of the epilogue :( Agh. It was enough just making my peace with it in canon, I don't want my peace disturbed :( My preferred feeling about the epilogue is 'leave it alone and I'm fine' :))
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Date: 2007-08-24 12:32 pm (UTC)That's sort of what my fic was trying to be, and a little me trying to tie up how I felt about the epilogue (really just H/G), whereas I think Maya's was post-epilogue tying up? READ IT REENA I WANT TO TALK ABOUT IT. It's not really - it doesn't disturb the epilogue, it just builds on it okay.
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Date: 2007-08-24 12:39 pm (UTC)LDKFJS AUSTRALIA ABADDON LDKJFS
I always want genfic really, I have realized that all the H/D I love best can pass as gen. But well! It's always H/D to me.
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Date: 2007-08-24 05:31 pm (UTC)As for me, I didn't used to want genfic; it's really a function of me really & truly not believing I can enjoy or believe in H/D anymore as written in most people's fics. I had all this bitterness to work through around '04 and end of '05 (creeping into '06, but really I was over it by then), all this anger at fandom and frustration with everyone's writing and so on, where it was like my own H/D was twisting and becoming darker and angrier just as a response. I look back on it and it seems like such a bad time, those 2 years I spent hating nearly everything H/D fandom produced. I think I don't read fics 'cause I'm afraid I can't feel that high anymore 'cause I'd be so pointlessly unhappy & critical all the time. I dunno. I started BBB because of this bitterness having some hope attached and in the end it was already too late because I didn't read any of the fics. Ah well.
I might read Maya's fic. But. Well. The likelihood I'd like it.... I mean, I always enjoy Maya's writing itself, so I'd probably like it on some level, but ;_____; I'm just saying, I probably won't squee over it. :-?
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