~~ fantasy vs. fiction.

[reenka]

To start with, I'll take pity on those of you who read this lj for an H/D fix (I can only imagine your woe, but)-- I wrote two of the fluffy/snarky marriage(!!) snippets for Aja's the_eros_affair here. One of them -with- Aja. I call it "Untitled Fluffy Snark #2". I wonder if any of you could tell which bits are mine, muwahahaha. ♥
~~

In my creative writing class, we were reading our snippets aloud today, and there was a sentence in one girl's piece: "What is the difference between fantasy and fiction?"

The answer was basically an allegory for how in fantasy, the ugly rough broken spots of reality get smoothed over and swept under the carpet-- basically, fantasy isn't going to be emotionally, empirically 'realistic'.
    You know, I was thinking about this, and I suppose it's actually true of how most people fantasize, how they view fantasy-- as an escape (and I realize that yes, for me also it's an escape). It's also the reason a number of 'realistic' writers look down on fantasy: after all, it can't tell you anything real about the world or the people around you. Fantasy is around to -lie-.

It seems like we have largely abandoned the traditional uses of allegory and myth in art; the way of the fairy-tale, the art of telling-without-telling, of telling obliquely, of showing through symbol and archetype and allegorical truth. I'm naturally of the bent that predisposes me to allegorical rather than everyday or 'mundane', empirical truth, so yes, 'fantasy' is just easier for me-- which becomes clear because only one of the snippets I heard in the class was really fantastical, and even that one seemed to look down on fantasy. We as a culture see truth as so cut-and-dry a lot of times-- at least, whenever we're not collectively being superstitious and idolizing authority and power. Well. I suppose it's always been like that.

Though there's a lot of 'filler' fantasy being published, much more than there was 50 years ago, say, and tons more than 100 years ago, most of it seems somewhat... standardized and unimaginative to me. The same old recycled pseudo-medieval tropes, the same old videogame retreads, the same old theme-park atmosphere. With HP, in a lot of ways it mocks the fantasy tropes it uses, but there's something about it-- something about the sheer inventivess and silliness that does hold a sense of wonder, it seems like. Even though it -should- feel recycled, it doesn't; it seems fresh if only because of that sense of... surprise, I suppose. Possibly this is a result of them being written like detective novels along with the largely innocent protagonist, or perhaps I'm just a chump. Whatever it is, I never know what silly/weird/odd/useful/funny thing JKR's magic will do next, in the Potterverse. It's like a bag of magic tricks, base stuff really, but it sparkles in a way most fantasy books just... flicker and glow dully.

Even in fanfic for a fantasy and fanart for a fantasy series like HP, there's not a lot of truly mythical/fantastical or allegorical stuff going on. Most people just write romance (rather than romantic fantasy, say), and what fantasy is there (not counting use of 'helper' spells like love potions or Veritaserum or Apparating or silly things like Veela!Draco-- I'm talking about actually being creative within the fantasy medium) is very... um, out of place somehow. I've seen 'wicca' (used badly), I've seen old Egyptian magic (omg, no), and at best I've seen creative variations on JKR's existing spells. Regardless, for some reason none of those things read as fantasy to me at the time-- just something with fantastical elements. I dunno... maybe it's not that it wasn't fantasy so much as it wasn't very good.

Anyway, I got to thinking about all this after looking at this Michael Whelan fantasy art gallery, which you should all see if you're interested in fantasy/allegorical art at all. Whelan's really a master at his chosen themes, and looking at it would give you a sense of the sort of thing I like to see dealt with in writing, also (and I guess you could also see why it's so rare that I find what I like on that level). Maybe it's just because I'm desperate for art to really mean something; to speak to me on multiple levels, from the most base (mmm, porrrnnn!!) to the most spiritual (allegory, dammit!)
    In other words, I'm always looking to see the most unreal premise portrayed in a painstakingly realistic manner-- and that's one reason I love Whelan's approach, I think. It's also why I'm so deeply frustrated with nearly all H/D fics, because once the honeymoon glow wore off, no one was really writing them realistically enough, and my desire to suspend my disbelief for anything other than (a deeper) truth really ebbed.

Or maybe I just really like this picture. And this. And this; and this.... Still and always, I hope.

Comments

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I think a problem I have with a lot of fantasy is that thing I had with HBP - it's so badly contrived, so recycled, and it glosses over just too many details for it to be believable make-believe. I mean, out of those pictures you posted, I liked the ones with the little boys in them best because they were believable. Your typical fantasy book cover with a half-naked chick with long hair just isn't believable to me anymore. It's so cliche, and, in the context of modern femininity and feminism, doesn't fit with what's believable related to reality. It's like my resistance to Western comics: too many allegories, too many similar things to the allegorical fantasy I don't like, too over-saturated and over-exaggerated to the point of almost being a parody of itself. Like most of those paintings - they're too symmetrical and oversaturated.

I'll admit there's a place for this contrivedness, but...well... I prefer it kept in the confines of religion. Where all that contrived bullshit can live in its happy fanastyland and not have to interact with reality. I prefer my fantasy/fiction to be more real. That doesn't mean it can't be allegorical, but in fictions I've read that are both real and allegorical (eg- Pratchett and Gaiman) the text acknoledges that the myth and fantasy is allegorical. You know, postmodernism and all that.

It's interesting though about the difference you say between fantasy and fiction. A lot of people like to call certain genres of fantasy and SF "speculative fiction" or "weird fiction" and this implies, in some way, it's closer to reality than traditional, allegorical "fantasy".

You're right about the detective-novelness of the HP books though. They are very much "Ooohhh what's the big mystery this time? Malfoy!" books, which is a common thing in a lot of kids books, no matter what the meta-genre they are.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahah, I think it's less that we disagree and more that you're more militant and/or hardcore (...except when it comes to H/D, because in that case I'm the most hardass bitch there is, ahahah). When I said I liked those the realism of all the paintings, I ment the style itself was 'realistic' in terms of-- proper proportion, not cartoony-- surrealism done in the style of landscape art with a difference, etc. I liked the boys pictures best too, 'cause they were also the most personal-- but I do enjoy the allegory itself and appreciate the... um, thought behind it, I guess--? Like-- um, as I was saying, different layers of meaning. So like... I can like in-your-face allegory, it's just that I like Gaiman-style self-aware allegory best, because it acknowledges several layers/levels of reality, if you know what I mean. Or not.

Haha, I don't think good mythic/legend/fairy-tale inspired fiction has to be contrived-- that's just the bad stuff which I don't like. And neither does it have anything to do with nekkid girls or whatever. Good fantasy isn't necessarily postmodern, though it's often more self-aware in the way that a lot of good fiction is self-aware. Sometimes obliquely; but actually, the mythic form itself is self-aware through the conventions it uses... hahaha, though it's cracking me up to imagine fairy-tales as postmodern, I think I can almost do a paper on it, if you're just using that in the lucid-narrator sense, where we sort of often get pulled out of the story by commentary on this-or-that spoken directly to the audience. And basically, it's very clear ('Once upon a time') that you're reading a fairy-tale in the first place.

I don't actually like superhero comics either, but there's a lot more to Western comics. Not like -tons-, but a lot more now than 5 years ago. There's at least 5 decent titles, all without overt fantasizing-- which I don't like either! Most of the interesting stuff is at Vertigo or Slave Labor comics. There's also lots of independent publishers, with everyday stuff like a comic about, literally, Emo Boy, who pretends he's got superpowers a bit and is v. emo and it's all dark parody for realz.... Also stuff like Slave Labor's Courtney Crumrin & omg, the genius that is Johnny the Homicidal Maniac. ♥ There's... a lot of diverse stuff out there.

I mean, there's a difference between stories with mystic elements & myth (which emerges naturally through the collective unconscious and ages of being retold) and religion (which is contrived in order to um, function as a societal force). That is a basic difference between a story & a method of social control in the first place. Also, if you leave all semi-spiritual or 'higher' thought to religion, you're leaving people to their doom in a lot of ways, because we (human beings) naturally ponder things of a deeper nature, and we all get our answers from somewhere. I think myths are actually a better source for questions than answers anyway, since it's not like the vast majority of people actually believe them anymore (unlike religion). In this way, we can attempt to explain the world without wresting it into a shape it's going to resist-- and freedom of thought remains.

Things like James Barrie's Peter Pan books acknowledge they're allegorical in some ways, just not as obviously as Gaiman does, though. I mean, I definitely meant to say, yeah, I like my fantasy more real, but real can mean a number of approaches, I guess...? Urban fantasy is one way to be real....

Er... also, 'weird fiction'/etc don't apply to fantasy so much as they do to sci-fi, and sci-fi is a whole 'nother kettle of fish if it's the pure stuff (not that there's not a deluge of science fantasy in actuality). However, merely being 'common' and 'everyday' or whatever isn't really enough to be 'real' to me, because as I said, reality has different layers of truth (aside from the purely empirical, and no, I don't like 'mumbo-jumbo' any more than the next atheist), and so on. Er.... ^^;;; That's sort of my premise, if you disagree I can't really convince you and vice versa ^^;

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

(...except when it comes to H/D, because in that case I'm the most hardass bitch there is, ahahah)

So true. You just won't let Draco top :P

I'm not militant... I'm just... picky. Really picky. So there.

Or not.

I do. Don't worry. *pats*

And yeah, I know about the Western comic thing, but the good ones are like, 4 times as expensive here and hard to find. Such a bitch. And still, some of them have that excessively contrasted & constrained style that sort of works for noir ones like Sin City and stuff but puts me off a lot of others. Too many box panels put me off comics faster than you can say "Where's my manga?".

and is v. emo

I could never have guessed. XD I just googled it and am going to have to find it somewhere now. It looks hilarious. And I like the art style (v. important).

Er... also, 'weird fiction'/etc don't apply to fantasy so much as they do to sci-fi, and sci-fi is a whole 'nother kettle of fish if it's the pure stuff (not that there's not a deluge of science fantasy in actuality).

Well, I've heard the term weird-fiction applied to stuff that isn't quite SF and isn't quite fantasy but is too dirty and real to be steampunk. It's not pure, but it's not clear cut enough to be magic realism.

That is a basic difference between a story & a method of social control in the first place.

Myah, moot point. Aren't allegories just trying to control people by condensing diversity into homogenity? I mean, if you want questions you turn to science, because by its very nature it has to focus on data and therefore diversity. If you want answers, you turn to allgories and myths and religion.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I hope you know not letting Draco be sappy/gorgeous/perfect in any way is MUCH more important to me than who tops. I mean, of course he can top sometimes; he just can't dominate Harry, totally omg-impress Harry, be a zillion times snarkier than Harry or be better than Harry in like, everything. Not that Harry has to be better; Draco just can't... I dunno, be cool, or I don't like him. Unless you're Maya, in which case there's the Maya clause, aka: because it's Maya, I love it. ♥

I'm v. picky too, y'know. However, allegory/fantasy/myth isn't an object, it's a subject ^^;;

The boxy panelling... I don't even remember what sort of panelling different comics have o_0 I don't think Johnny has boxy panelling. But. I can't be sure. As for knowing what's new, buy Wizard :D

I like any good story with an element of the fantastic, but I also think trying not to call it fantasy by any means possible and invent a new and better label is just annoyingly pretentious to me. ^^; Lots of mainstream books ('The Joy Luck Club') have fantasy elements and are 'weird', but they don't need their own term. But then I'm just bitter ^^;

I don't think all allegories/fables/myths by nature are trying to control people any more than science is trying to enlighten people-- stories just -are-, and people choose to be controlled/enlightened/confused (and/or they just can't help their own reactions, but it's not like you can blame the story). Religion has answers spelled out/fed to you, a (good!) story hints at the answers and allows you to interpret yourself. It's somewhere in between an answer & a question, just like science is also in between, because it always formulates answers while more blatantly referring to the questions. You can't honestly juxtapose any story & science... I mean, you could, but it makes me sad, because... well, I see things as more of a continuum than that, and believe imagination and fantasy plays a large part in the inspiration/philosophy of science.

I think dualismm also makes my head hurt ^^;

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

I don't think all allegories/fables/myths by nature are trying to control people any more than science is trying to enlighten people

Except, y'know, science has had that whole philosophy of the Enlightenment behind it from its coalescence in the 18th centruy (Bacon, Newton's Natural Philosophy, Kant) which we have yet to shake off for better or for worse, and "religion" just happens to mean "to bind". :P

Religion has answers spelled out/fed to you

...By human beings. Even if you argue for divine inspiration, it's still mediated by (usually a class of) people with agendas. A "good" story by literature's standards is not a good story by religious standards, because religion exists to bind thoughts and people into a vaguely homogenous community, not to encourage diverse questioning and freedom of thought.

I'm not juxtaposing any story and science, but specifically science and religious myths. I'm using them because religious myths are the great myths of our society that are the boring allegories that keep on being repeated and are only now starting to be subverted in a major way by Western society: Greco-Roman gods, Genesis/Adam & Eve, the Exodus, Freud's Oedipal myths, etc etc*. They're not necessarily the only stories out there, but those who usually argue for the fundamental need for allegorical myths usually essentialise these babies. Any story an science? No. The major allegorical myths of any society and science? Yes, because 99.9% of the time these are meta-religious-myths.

*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I'm just saying science is a tool, and can be used for enlightenment but doesn't -have- to be; I'm a big fan of the ideals behind the (scientfici) Enlightenment, but I suppose I don't see religion as equivalent to all non-scientific/rational or allegorical thought ^^; I mean, when all else fails, read Einstein's Dreams (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446670111/103-6263340-7169455?v=glance) for a look at the connection between dreams (in the semi-spiritual belief sense) and the scientific eye. It's all in how you approach the universe. Also I recommend looking into the work of Loren Eiseley (anthropologist, naturalist & poet), who inspires me greatly.

Anyway, I'm not defending religion or even meaning to go into or mention religion, just by talking about myth-- since myth is as it's understood after the fact of it being a religion (like, in ancient Greece). Myths are stories; religions are stories used for a specific purpose to shape people's behavior. Not all myths are creation myths or even religious myths-- the Grecian ones are great examples or rather flippant mythmaking. But you're right in that believing in something like that too strongly stunts the growth of any society; however, society -always- has myths (the capitalist myth, the American Dream myth), it's just a difference in quality and direction, as always. I also am not so sure about there being no story in science. Have you ever read the work of Carl Sagan, most especially, I'd recommend Cosmos. I think you'd enjoy it, and it shows how very human and courageous a thing the scientific endeavor is. Secondarily, I'd recommend Shadows of Forgotten Ancestors heartily.

Superstitions and outdated beliefs aren't the same thing as the literary concept of allegory. Like, the Pre-Raphaelites drew Ophelia to represent doomed love, etc-- this is not an attempt at societal control, you know? Or Maxfield Parrish drew dreamy girls (http://www.artpassions.net/cgi-bin/show_image.pl?../galleries/parrish/dreaming.jpg) and boys (http://www.artpassions.net/cgi-bin/show_image.pl?../galleries/parrish/aircastles.jpg)-- can be taken as allegory, can be taken as dreamy girls-- I dunno, it's just not the same, because I'm not talking about the -current- driving societal myths, but rather the stuff more commonly used for fantasy/fairy-tales. I'm not talking about the 'great myths' but just the vehicle of communal storytelling that explained many things about the world, was fanciful and once deeply believed, but is no more. Is a relic. Is a story, merely, and pretty harmless (I mean, how much stock do -you- put in Ragnarok?).

With Maya's Draco-- I only meant -I- thought he was cute/cool/an exception to the rule with me & a Draco most people seem to find 'cool' but I don't. Though I find him cute. :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Haha, man... I dunno if the HP books are good 'fantasy' or they make sense in realistic terms or... whatever (well, they're not and they don't), I'm just... saying that there's something about her brand of magic that evokes my sense of wonder-- nothing to do with whether that makes sense, everything to do with the how rather than the what or why. Well, a little bit of the what, but no why. :> Of course, I like my whys taken care of too, but..... Actually, HP is nowhere near my favorite-fantasies list, so I was only mentioning it to humor people.

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

hahah
I read through the whole thing and picked it out (4th from the bottom) - yup - only Reena would have "You can't torture me into agreeing to marry you,"
:D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee :> Well, there was one other one I wrote just by myself, but that one's the one I did with Aja, and that's one of Aja's lines ;) ;) But-- she -was- working with my characterizations/first lines to start with :))

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

so... did you do the "I promise to sleep with you soon" fic, yet?
*taps foot impatiently*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

er.... *looks shifty* ^^;;;

[balfrog.livejournal.com]

:D
eee- make me wait around for the one I want...
:D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...you want them to sleepsleep together?? :>

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

I loved this essay. That's exactly the problem with HP fanfic, and maybe why i'm a bit bored with it - most of it, with honourable exceptions (Shadow of his Wings comes to mind) don't really even attempt the magical side of things. Hell, they often don't attempt the plot side of things.

I think JKR's world works because it's 3-dimensional and solid, and within that the characters have an incredible psychological reality. As a reader, you think it's easy until you look at something else. and it's the balance of those things plus the mega-plot, I think, that keeps people so involved.

I read an adult novel which could be classed as fantasy in some respects, The Vintner's Luck (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0099273896/qid=1126081592/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/202-3917622-7370213), and again it's that balance of the real with the fantastical that's so hard to get right.

PS I don't usually like fantasy art - for all the reasons mentioned - but those are lovely.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I've heard many good things about The Vintner's Luck (read a good review of it when I was looking for gay-themed fantasy books, maybe, ages ago, not sure), but never got around to it, probably because of the angel thing. Heh. And the not-too-happy ending thing. Possibly reviews have a downside sometimes ^^;;;

I'm just doomed with HP fic 'cause I'd -like- plot and fantasy elements and things, but not as much as I'd like the 'right' H/D relationship (I think I have something like a list in my head of the 10 zillion things I'd like a fic not to do with Harry and/or Draco). Although I sell out big-time for snark, smut and Maya um... snarky!Draco -in- smut :D I did like Transfigurations for the magic bits and the Harry, even though the Draco was... oh maaannnn ><;;

I do think most people 'buy' into the Potterverse for the characters, but I actually really like things like the Department of Mysteries, the love room, horcruxes, the zombies in the water, etcetc. Not so much that it keeps me involved (it's really just Harry who keeps me), but it evokes a sense of the fantastic, that childlike excitement of 'oooh, shiny!!'-- but maybe that's just me, not saying it isn't.

And I'm so happy you like Michael Whelan! Though the realm of fantasy art is in itself huge & multifaceted :>

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

I was recommended The Vintner's luck by my pal ravurian and I didn't read it for a while because, angels, yuk. But everything else he recommended was good, so I got round to it, and enjoyed it thoroughly. In fact, the angel part works very, very well indeed. It's helped by the setting in nineteenth-century France, and the way it can then draw on beliefs about heaven and hell.

It's not a tragic tale, although in the sense that you're left musing about life, age and death, it's not a barrel of laughs either. Melancholy, I think. 'Lucifer has theories.' Guh.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Anything that seriously mentions Lucifer and his 'projects' is good in my book :D :D :D (*has a slight obsession, probably*)
I will get around to it! Well, mostly it's the lack of actual gay consummation/romance. I dunno. So few books in the fanfic ouvre, it is sad. Or perhaps not, actually :))

[parthenia14.livejournal.com]

'gay consummation'? (sounds like a sandwich)

There's some of that, too. Mwahahaha.

Have you read Mary Renault's The Charioteer (modern, set in wartime England)? Not fantasy, but the most fabulous romantic story, which happens to be gay - and for once, it's all about the relationships/the romance, and not really about coming out/being struck down. I haven't read any of the ancient greek ones, but this was wonderful. The first chapter or two are practically in code (it was written in the early 1950s), and then it opens up into a complex, gripping tale.

[djinniyah.livejournal.com]

... is this a challenge?

:D :D :D

I find that I can do allegorical or fantastic art with only certain characters (when its fanart and we're talkinga HP). Most notably, I can do it for Tom Riddle. And sometimes others... but... I think I'd write allegory better than I'd draw it. Symbolism, allegory, metaphor, fantasy - all very prevalent in my poetry and fictionlikethings (omg, Jinn writes. the world ends.)... mostly because it requires a level of anal-ness to have it all as its precise and conscious and... I don't know. Am I making sense? No. Yes. Well.

Hm. I'm kinda half-and-half here. HP for me is at once fantastical in a refreshing way and utterly, utterly disappointing in its utter lack of creativity (ouch. pardon the harshness there). I can't exactly articulate what I mean... it is very magical in a sense, but not in using novel ideas - more like, re-presenting them in a surprising or novel way.

I think people have preconceived notions of fantasy... which is just sad. Hence all the crappy quasimedieval fairy elf fantasy books out there (not to even touch scifi). I threatened my friends and family once that I was going to write a book where the elves were either (a) ugly, or (b) communist. Or both. Just because. And that's not even all that original or creative... just playing against the stereotypes.

I DO NOT KNOW. I am rambling. As for fanfiction - I completely agree that there is rarely anything fantastical in most of the stories I've read. Every once in a while I run across an author that blows me away with their ideas of magic and the way they pull it off in their writing... but not often. Probably because, most of the time, people aren't writing fantasies. They're writing romances or porn (though not cowboy westerns, which is a loss - there's an AU! :D Wizard!western! The Malfoys immigrants to America and Harry a weird half-Indian orphan/translator who can't read and talks to snakes and... *snickers* OMG)... I think people might find it hard to draw fan-original fantasy from fantasy, sometimes. Though I miss it too. :( *woes with Reena*

And I feel sad that some of your classmates were looking down on fantasy - I think it can be one of the more powerful means of writing, really, if done right. Have they read any magical realism? *loves so hard*

Um. I don't know if I was going to say anything else. I should draw you allegorical art now. Any themes you like?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I certainly didn't think of it as a challenge, but!! Well, now it is!! >:D! I'm not even sure what I'd be challenging to -do-, but-- I dunno if I have themes I'm conscious of liking except something like lost (youth, love, nature-- nostalgia?) and things like Prudence (http://zzx.shangdu.com/artchina_art/world_art/Michael%20Whelan/fineart/prudence2.jpg) and just, the role of love/lust denied/channeled/subverted...? That sounds confusing. The ascent to knowledge, inevitabilities of nature, and probably my favorite, the discovery/hiding (so dualistic) of Self in nature/love.... um, now I'm just not making sense, am I ^^;;;

I think my favorite thing would be seeing HP characters as Tarot cards :D Fool!Draco especially :> Though my fic has him be the Hanged Man... that would be AWESOME omg. Um. :>

My symbolism is never conscious, though I think when I write longer things I just can't escape it-- or at least, with my (hahah, Big Bang) Death Eater!Draco novella, it's really crazy, how it builds on itself-- using the small beginnings of repeated themes (roses, knives), suddenly I have to complete the pattern, so wands/cups becomes swords/wands/cups/pentacles like, automatically, and then things start to flow around the emerging metaphor because I can't help it.Though that's not a conscious allegorical style (which I don't think I'm capable of 'cause it's so precise), and more a hodgepodge of themes and clusters of metaphors (so I write about a rose garden, and then I look up symbolism of roses and other flowers, make up magic spells and use the symbolism of other flowers to suit the story, and so on, and then the symbolism in turn influences the story). But that's sort of because... I'm always going from the symbolic first & unravelling it :>

I know exactly what you mean about HP presenting recycled ideas in a surprising/novel way-- that's precisely what I meant to say in my post anyway :D I mean, that in itself makes me appreciate it, because it's also not that common. I think the approach-- being able to see the 'magic' in the magic-- is as important as the actual theme/content, especially in an oversaturated medium. Of course, ideally there would be creativity everywhere and magic would flow naturally-- my favorite writers (say, Patricia McKillip) definitely do that. Their magic feels both wondrous and new, using archetypal themes without just -reusing- but rather transforming, making it personal and specific to the story. But I'd settle for at least an element of surprise....

Ooooh, UGLY COMMUNIST ELVES <333333333333 LOVE <33333333333333333333333333 Well, there are already 'ugly' Sidhe-- y'know, the Little Folk, but of course they aren't elves. If you want ugly(ish) elves, there's only Poison Elves (the comic) to turn to, and they're not that ugly. But I love his elves <33 And well, I suppose there are house-elves... ^^;;;

There are some drawings I really love, like this (http://www.deviantart.com/view/20140348/) sort of do the fantasy AU thing, whee! Hehehe half-Indian orphan!Harry :D :D That rulez!!1 :D He could grow up to be the sheriff, what with the gun-slinging (there has to be!) and Draco has to be the bad rich boy who's like, doing bad deals and owns half the town and has to be taken down, y'know... right.... er. But he could still be illiterate. Harry I mean :))

Of course, I love magical realism :> Though I haven't read much of the South American tradition (ie, Borges), I've read the other, later stuff. Though one could also call it 'urban fantasy' and all that-- at least, stories set in the present with fantastical elements are definitely my favorite, probably. But then I read a really good alternate-world story and it just HITS me, just eats my brain, 'cause I can get lost in another world, and nothing quite matches that.

[djinniyah.livejournal.com]

Haha, I didn't think you meant it as challenge, but I couldn't help want to draw something to appease you. :> :> :D :D Heee. Rants that make me think and empathize are the best. And I want to draw Harry naked and young in the sea, or something, now... holding a dead, rotting animal or somesuch. Just... because.

I love themes. Your themes, themes in general. (these are the lamest and most pointless two sentences in the history of sentences... but yes). Subversion in general interests me - beauty and hideousness, equating supposed opposites, 'infinitizing' things if that makes any sense. Discovery (yes!), transformation, ascension as destruction (or vice versa), and...

I've thought about the whole tarot cards thing. I read them as a child (and was so, so good at it - knew my friends and their desires just that well. ;] ah, the strangenesses of divination) and loved the symbolism. Especially of the cards that weren't just what they were - i.e. "death" or "the hanged man" or "the fool"... they weren't what you'd expect them to be if you just read the name and didn't bother with the more esoteric of the implications or something. I'd draw HP tarot cards - but they've been done before. Meh, I don't know. I'd take them too seriously. AH RANDOM STORY IDEA: plot told via the giving of reading or something - that cross set-up, four up the side and a cross to right - each for the characters and... *stops self now*

Anyway.

As for consciousness in writing allegory - I'm exactly like you, actually. I'm always going from the symbolic first & unravelling it : I do that. In writing poetry (which is the only sort of thing I've written and completed), I always start with images and ideas that later shape themselves into the meaning. Writing introduces the metaphor in a sense - I was calling it conscious because I'm always aware of it by the end of the writing - aware of every single little thing. As I tweak and edit, I'm super-precise as I know exactly what I mean... but only then, at the end. I, too, start with the symbolic and the meaning writes itself. Sort of. :)

Ugly communist elves, indeed. :D I was bored with the prevalence of monarchy in fantasy - decided to bring in communism. Bored with the beautiful pristine yet-somehow-biologically-compatible elf, so they're ugly now. And probably human (so probably not elves at all... but were they to begin with, ultimately?).

What I'm actually surprised about, in terms of HP AUs and HP in general (given how extensive the fandom is in terms of covering everything possible), is the lack of scifi elements in fic. Where's the cybermagic AU? The other planets? Aliens? Muggle experimentation on wizards in some post-war, dystopic future timeline - with needles and magical physics and glass cages? And of course, the lack of cowboys. I need to just go write fic more than I do (and I completely do... it just never goes places. Though maybe I'll fix up my ideas for BB H/D - which I can't draw for this time 'round - and write a proper fic). Or, just draw things and make people write for me. :) :) :) Because I am a lazy whore. :D

And, finally, magical realism. In terms of Latin American stuff, I've only read a few of Gabriel Garcia Marquez's books (read 'Of Love and Other Demons' - I think you would adore it - it's one of my favorite books of all time. The love. The love.) and some Allende... and probably some others that I can't think of. And I've only read a little urban fantasy... You should read 'the Tooth Fairy' too (Graham Joyce) - there's strange, fucked-up, beautiful fantasy for you. *pimps out her favorite books*

Hee. ♥

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahahah, nekkid Harry in the sea-- I like that. I dunno about the rotting animal (zombie is fine--?), just because-- rotting animal, but :D
Ascention as destruction!! That sounds great and tragic. Sort of like the idea/metaphor of Savior As Falling Star (Jesus??) except like, less over-the-top, maybe, I dunno. Not so much martyrdom but being saved by the ephemeral appeals to me. And I've always been obsessed with beauty/hideousness and.... all the rest. From an early, impressionable age, all that :D


It's hard to take Tarot cards too seriously as symbols 'cause they're so layered!! And post-HBP!Draco is like, -begging- to be the Hanged Man, I think. Well, in the best of worlds. Plus! The thing about Tarot symbology is that every mutation is unique and special-- like, you can't 'redo' it, 'cause every little thing changes so much. A personal Tarot would be a very revealing thing of an artist, I think.... Plus, no need to draw them all, just one or two would be amazing :D Not that I'm biased or... anything. Magician!Harry!!! :D Um ^^;;

I think I know what I mean the more I say things-- like, a process of self-analysis. 'Sooo, that's what I mean... huh'. It's good to um, not be alone :D With poems, I'm aware faster than with longer pieces, 'cause I can see them at a glance more and they're more of a single work rather than a hodgepodge. I mean, once you pass something like 30 pages, it's hard to think of the story as just this one thing... it gets away from me, anyway.

I would totally write for a wacked-out AU premise if you drew it, especially if you drew something sequential that gave a timeline or multiple scenes :D :D :D I'm probably not the person to do cybermagic, but the other stuff... glass cages, possibly cowboys, hell, ugly elves.... (cousins of house-elves gone wild in Norway, some migrating to Canada... gone on a vacation to England except there was a war on...) You should definitely try to write for the BB H/D if you have ideas!! I think with me, 'going places' just means going at it for long enough... like, once you reach a certain point, plot either happens naturally, or someone dies :>

I've heard great things about Graham Joyce!! I should really get to that :D
And you should try urban fantasy like Nina Kiriki Hoffman & Emma Bull & Charles deLint :D :D :D ♥

[djinniyah.livejournal.com]

DEAD ANIMAL = LOVE.

I am obsessed with beauty/hideousness and all that... I think, fundamentally, I don't truly believe any of the ultimate dichotomies/dualisms exist in actuality (things like male/female, good/evil, up/down, zero/infinity, beauty/ugliness, etc etc etc). Therefore, I love pushing their boundaries (or flipping them altogether) in real life because, for me, I'm not actually breaking anything... but because of my culture, that pretending can be so powerful. Ohhhh, how I love it, my own little subversions. *glee*

I could do a small series of tarot cards... Hn. I will have to ponder this. :D It'd be fun just to see how much I could surprise people with my choices of characters (notice: subversion. yes, i am obnoxious.)

Poems are easier (so much easier) than fiction, yes. It is the condensing of the thoughts - they are easier to visualize and work with. I have a similar problem with long things. I lose track of what I'm doing. My tentative BB H/D fic is the only thing I've written that, at the length it is, I've been able to keep track of. It's still tight (if amazingly, uneditedingly crappy) and a coherant whole for me, which is very surprising. Even weirder (the whole fic weirds me out - it's actually working *mind boggles) is that I have a plot... it's just that I'm lazy and I have to be in the perfect mood to write it well. Meh meh meh. If I write it fast enough, I might just illustrate the whole thing myself and post it somewhere. :D Heh heh heh.

If you wrote a wacked-out AU story, I completely would illustrate it - chronologically, whatever. Sadly, I leave the US in six weeks (haha, DEADLINES OMG *dies*), so it'd have to be done real soon or wait 'til next summer. :) BUT I WOULD. COWBOYS. CYBERMAGIC. EITHER OR. *glee* Heee. UGLY NORWEGIAN COMMUNIST ELVES TOO OF COURSE.

:) And Graham Joyce is an amazing writer. I've only read too of his books - but the Tooth Fairy. God. The Tooth Fairy. It just. a;weifja;eifa;ieeeeeeeee I need to draw art for that. I've been meaning too. Forever. Gah.

♥ ♥ ♥

(oh, and if you finish or think you'll finish your BB H/D fic before I leave - send me a bit and I'll draw you a BB H/D illustration. I won't be here in February but would still draw something for you that could be posted then. :D)

[cellia.livejournal.com]

!!! I have been vaguely wondering about "flowers" forever! (It was the cover of some SF convention program booklet and I have saved it and carried it around with me forever.) I should have known it was Whelan. Btw, the actual paintings are just as beautiful, most are oil and beatifully luminous.

(and now for something completely diff) I don't feel Fantasy from the HP books at all. Maybe a bit in the 1st 2. They are fantasic in the sense of childhood daydreams and plot devices, but there is no rising above the mundane, I feel no spirit moving under the surface. They could probably be easily rejiggered by replacing wizards with androids/mutants and magic with technology with only the loss of the cozy oldschool English tone.

The reason they addicted me (besides fandom) is for their mystery-like quality, I need to know "what happens next." (I remember an editor describing a child telling her why JKR was such a great/popular author. The child compaired the 1st pages of a Potter book to a Lloyd Alexander, I think, and said "now in *this* one I need to read the next sentence.")

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hee! :D That painting really struck me. Wah. Sometimes he just hits it on several levels, it's great. I've always been a bit torn-- love some of his stuff, am merely okay with most of it, but when he gets it right, he -really- gets it right, to me at least :>

I think with the HP stuff, I meant it was more that sense of childhood dreams and the fantastic, which is one way to evoke a sense of wonder, ina gee-whiz 50s comics sort of way, maybe. That's a weird thing to compare it to. Certainly, it doesn't register as 'normal' fantasy, but it has... -something- a lot of mainstream fantasy doesn't, and I'm in no hurry to call that 'the heart of fantasy' or anything; perhaps it's just the element of... surprise? Or just cleverness. Or something that reminds me of how that boy felt about toy BB guns in A Christmas Story... ahaha, I dunno :D

They never did addict me, precisely, but I can see how that would work. I think I myself just read to find out what happens to my baby Harry :D