~~ fantasy vs. fiction.
Sep. 6th, 2005 09:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaTo start with, I'll take pity on those of you who read this lj for an H/D fix (I can only imagine your woe, but)-- I wrote two of the fluffy/snarky marriage(!!) snippets for Aja's ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
the_eros_affair here. One of them -with- Aja. I call it "Untitled Fluffy Snark #2". I wonder if any of you could tell which bits are mine, muwahahaha. ♥
~~
In my creative writing class, we were reading our snippets aloud today, and there was a sentence in one girl's piece: "What is the difference between fantasy and fiction?"
The answer was basically an allegory for how in fantasy, the ugly rough broken spots of reality get smoothed over and swept under the carpet-- basically, fantasy isn't going to be emotionally, empirically 'realistic'.
You know, I was thinking about this, and I suppose it's actually true of how most people fantasize, how they view fantasy-- as an escape (and I realize that yes, for me also it's an escape). It's also the reason a number of 'realistic' writers look down on fantasy: after all, it can't tell you anything real about the world or the people around you. Fantasy is around to -lie-.
It seems like we have largely abandoned the traditional uses of allegory and myth in art; the way of the fairy-tale, the art of telling-without-telling, of telling obliquely, of showing through symbol and archetype and allegorical truth. I'm naturally of the bent that predisposes me to allegorical rather than everyday or 'mundane', empirical truth, so yes, 'fantasy' is just easier for me-- which becomes clear because only one of the snippets I heard in the class was really fantastical, and even that one seemed to look down on fantasy. We as a culture see truth as so cut-and-dry a lot of times-- at least, whenever we're not collectively being superstitious and idolizing authority and power. Well. I suppose it's always been like that.
Though there's a lot of 'filler' fantasy being published, much more than there was 50 years ago, say, and tons more than 100 years ago, most of it seems somewhat... standardized and unimaginative to me. The same old recycled pseudo-medieval tropes, the same old videogame retreads, the same old theme-park atmosphere. With HP, in a lot of ways it mocks the fantasy tropes it uses, but there's something about it-- something about the sheer inventivess and silliness that does hold a sense of wonder, it seems like. Even though it -should- feel recycled, it doesn't; it seems fresh if only because of that sense of... surprise, I suppose. Possibly this is a result of them being written like detective novels along with the largely innocent protagonist, or perhaps I'm just a chump. Whatever it is, I never know what silly/weird/odd/useful/funny thing JKR's magic will do next, in the Potterverse. It's like a bag of magic tricks, base stuff really, but it sparkles in a way most fantasy books just... flicker and glow dully.
Even in fanfic for a fantasy and fanart for a fantasy series like HP, there's not a lot of truly mythical/fantastical or allegorical stuff going on. Most people just write romance (rather than romantic fantasy, say), and what fantasy is there (not counting use of 'helper' spells like love potions or Veritaserum or Apparating or silly things like Veela!Draco-- I'm talking about actually being creative within the fantasy medium) is very... um, out of place somehow. I've seen 'wicca' (used badly), I've seen old Egyptian magic (omg, no), and at best I've seen creative variations on JKR's existing spells. Regardless, for some reason none of those things read as fantasy to me at the time-- just something with fantastical elements. I dunno... maybe it's not that it wasn't fantasy so much as it wasn't very good.
Anyway, I got to thinking about all this after looking at this Michael Whelan fantasy art gallery, which you should all see if you're interested in fantasy/allegorical art at all. Whelan's really a master at his chosen themes, and looking at it would give you a sense of the sort of thing I like to see dealt with in writing, also (and I guess you could also see why it's so rare that I find what I like on that level). Maybe it's just because I'm desperate for art to really mean something; to speak to me on multiple levels, from the most base (mmm, porrrnnn!!) to the most spiritual (allegory, dammit!)
In other words, I'm always looking to see the most unreal premise portrayed in a painstakingly realistic manner-- and that's one reason I love Whelan's approach, I think. It's also why I'm so deeply frustrated with nearly all H/D fics, because once the honeymoon glow wore off, no one was really writing them realistically enough, and my desire to suspend my disbelief for anything other than (a deeper) truth really ebbed.
Or maybe I just really like this picture. And this. And this; and this.... Still and always, I hope.
the_eros_affair here. One of them -with- Aja. I call it "Untitled Fluffy Snark #2". I wonder if any of you could tell which bits are mine, muwahahaha. ♥~~
In my creative writing class, we were reading our snippets aloud today, and there was a sentence in one girl's piece: "What is the difference between fantasy and fiction?"
The answer was basically an allegory for how in fantasy, the ugly rough broken spots of reality get smoothed over and swept under the carpet-- basically, fantasy isn't going to be emotionally, empirically 'realistic'.
You know, I was thinking about this, and I suppose it's actually true of how most people fantasize, how they view fantasy-- as an escape (and I realize that yes, for me also it's an escape). It's also the reason a number of 'realistic' writers look down on fantasy: after all, it can't tell you anything real about the world or the people around you. Fantasy is around to -lie-.
It seems like we have largely abandoned the traditional uses of allegory and myth in art; the way of the fairy-tale, the art of telling-without-telling, of telling obliquely, of showing through symbol and archetype and allegorical truth. I'm naturally of the bent that predisposes me to allegorical rather than everyday or 'mundane', empirical truth, so yes, 'fantasy' is just easier for me-- which becomes clear because only one of the snippets I heard in the class was really fantastical, and even that one seemed to look down on fantasy. We as a culture see truth as so cut-and-dry a lot of times-- at least, whenever we're not collectively being superstitious and idolizing authority and power. Well. I suppose it's always been like that.
Though there's a lot of 'filler' fantasy being published, much more than there was 50 years ago, say, and tons more than 100 years ago, most of it seems somewhat... standardized and unimaginative to me. The same old recycled pseudo-medieval tropes, the same old videogame retreads, the same old theme-park atmosphere. With HP, in a lot of ways it mocks the fantasy tropes it uses, but there's something about it-- something about the sheer inventivess and silliness that does hold a sense of wonder, it seems like. Even though it -should- feel recycled, it doesn't; it seems fresh if only because of that sense of... surprise, I suppose. Possibly this is a result of them being written like detective novels along with the largely innocent protagonist, or perhaps I'm just a chump. Whatever it is, I never know what silly/weird/odd/useful/funny thing JKR's magic will do next, in the Potterverse. It's like a bag of magic tricks, base stuff really, but it sparkles in a way most fantasy books just... flicker and glow dully.
Even in fanfic for a fantasy and fanart for a fantasy series like HP, there's not a lot of truly mythical/fantastical or allegorical stuff going on. Most people just write romance (rather than romantic fantasy, say), and what fantasy is there (not counting use of 'helper' spells like love potions or Veritaserum or Apparating or silly things like Veela!Draco-- I'm talking about actually being creative within the fantasy medium) is very... um, out of place somehow. I've seen 'wicca' (used badly), I've seen old Egyptian magic (omg, no), and at best I've seen creative variations on JKR's existing spells. Regardless, for some reason none of those things read as fantasy to me at the time-- just something with fantastical elements. I dunno... maybe it's not that it wasn't fantasy so much as it wasn't very good.
Anyway, I got to thinking about all this after looking at this Michael Whelan fantasy art gallery, which you should all see if you're interested in fantasy/allegorical art at all. Whelan's really a master at his chosen themes, and looking at it would give you a sense of the sort of thing I like to see dealt with in writing, also (and I guess you could also see why it's so rare that I find what I like on that level). Maybe it's just because I'm desperate for art to really mean something; to speak to me on multiple levels, from the most base (mmm, porrrnnn!!) to the most spiritual (allegory, dammit!)
In other words, I'm always looking to see the most unreal premise portrayed in a painstakingly realistic manner-- and that's one reason I love Whelan's approach, I think. It's also why I'm so deeply frustrated with nearly all H/D fics, because once the honeymoon glow wore off, no one was really writing them realistically enough, and my desire to suspend my disbelief for anything other than (a deeper) truth really ebbed.
Or maybe I just really like this picture. And this. And this; and this.... Still and always, I hope.
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no subject
Date: 2005-09-07 10:28 pm (UTC):D :D :D
I find that I can do allegorical or fantastic art with only certain characters (when its fanart and we're talkinga HP). Most notably, I can do it for Tom Riddle. And sometimes others... but... I think I'd write allegory better than I'd draw it. Symbolism, allegory, metaphor, fantasy - all very prevalent in my poetry and fictionlikethings (omg, Jinn writes. the world ends.)... mostly because it requires a level of anal-ness to have it all as its precise and conscious and... I don't know. Am I making sense? No. Yes. Well.
Hm. I'm kinda half-and-half here. HP for me is at once fantastical in a refreshing way and utterly, utterly disappointing in its utter lack of creativity (ouch. pardon the harshness there). I can't exactly articulate what I mean... it is very magical in a sense, but not in using novel ideas - more like, re-presenting them in a surprising or novel way.
I think people have preconceived notions of fantasy... which is just sad. Hence all the crappy quasimedieval fairy elf fantasy books out there (not to even touch scifi). I threatened my friends and family once that I was going to write a book where the elves were either (a) ugly, or (b) communist. Or both. Just because. And that's not even all that original or creative... just playing against the stereotypes.
I DO NOT KNOW. I am rambling. As for fanfiction - I completely agree that there is rarely anything fantastical in most of the stories I've read. Every once in a while I run across an author that blows me away with their ideas of magic and the way they pull it off in their writing... but not often. Probably because, most of the time, people aren't writing fantasies. They're writing romances or porn (though not cowboy westerns, which is a loss - there's an AU! :D Wizard!western! The Malfoys immigrants to America and Harry a weird half-Indian orphan/translator who can't read and talks to snakes and... *snickers* OMG)... I think people might find it hard to draw fan-original fantasy from fantasy, sometimes. Though I miss it too. :( *woes with Reena*
And I feel sad that some of your classmates were looking down on fantasy - I think it can be one of the more powerful means of writing, really, if done right. Have they read any magical realism? *loves so hard*
Um. I don't know if I was going to say anything else. I should draw you allegorical art now. Any themes you like?
no subject
Date: 2005-09-07 11:12 pm (UTC)I think my favorite thing would be seeing HP characters as Tarot cards :D Fool!Draco especially :> Though my fic has him be the Hanged Man... that would be AWESOME omg. Um. :>
My symbolism is never conscious, though I think when I write longer things I just can't escape it-- or at least, with my (hahah, Big Bang) Death Eater!Draco novella, it's really crazy, how it builds on itself-- using the small beginnings of repeated themes (roses, knives), suddenly I have to complete the pattern, so wands/cups becomes swords/wands/cups/pentacles like, automatically, and then things start to flow around the emerging metaphor because I can't help it.Though that's not a conscious allegorical style (which I don't think I'm capable of 'cause it's so precise), and more a hodgepodge of themes and clusters of metaphors (so I write about a rose garden, and then I look up symbolism of roses and other flowers, make up magic spells and use the symbolism of other flowers to suit the story, and so on, and then the symbolism in turn influences the story). But that's sort of because... I'm always going from the symbolic first & unravelling it :>
I know exactly what you mean about HP presenting recycled ideas in a surprising/novel way-- that's precisely what I meant to say in my post anyway :D I mean, that in itself makes me appreciate it, because it's also not that common. I think the approach-- being able to see the 'magic' in the magic-- is as important as the actual theme/content, especially in an oversaturated medium. Of course, ideally there would be creativity everywhere and magic would flow naturally-- my favorite writers (say, Patricia McKillip) definitely do that. Their magic feels both wondrous and new, using archetypal themes without just -reusing- but rather transforming, making it personal and specific to the story. But I'd settle for at least an element of surprise....
Ooooh, UGLY COMMUNIST ELVES <333333333333 LOVE <33333333333333333333333333 Well, there are already 'ugly' Sidhe-- y'know, the Little Folk, but of course they aren't elves. If you want ugly(ish) elves, there's only Poison Elves (the comic) to turn to, and they're not that ugly. But I love his elves <33 And well, I suppose there are house-elves... ^^;;;
There are some drawings I really love, like this (http://www.deviantart.com/view/20140348/) sort of do the fantasy AU thing, whee! Hehehe half-Indian orphan!Harry :D :D That rulez!!1 :D He could grow up to be the sheriff, what with the gun-slinging (there has to be!) and Draco has to be the bad rich boy who's like, doing bad deals and owns half the town and has to be taken down, y'know... right.... er. But he could still be illiterate. Harry I mean :))
Of course, I love magical realism :> Though I haven't read much of the South American tradition (ie, Borges), I've read the other, later stuff. Though one could also call it 'urban fantasy' and all that-- at least, stories set in the present with fantastical elements are definitely my favorite, probably. But then I read a really good alternate-world story and it just HITS me, just eats my brain, 'cause I can get lost in another world, and nothing quite matches that.
no subject
Date: 2005-09-08 12:10 am (UTC)I love themes. Your themes, themes in general. (these are the lamest and most pointless two sentences in the history of sentences... but yes). Subversion in general interests me - beauty and hideousness, equating supposed opposites, 'infinitizing' things if that makes any sense. Discovery (yes!), transformation, ascension as destruction (or vice versa), and...
I've thought about the whole tarot cards thing. I read them as a child (and was so, so good at it - knew my friends and their desires just that well. ;] ah, the strangenesses of divination) and loved the symbolism. Especially of the cards that weren't just what they were - i.e. "death" or "the hanged man" or "the fool"... they weren't what you'd expect them to be if you just read the name and didn't bother with the more esoteric of the implications or something. I'd draw HP tarot cards - but they've been done before. Meh, I don't know. I'd take them too seriously. AH RANDOM STORY IDEA: plot told via the giving of reading or something - that cross set-up, four up the side and a cross to right - each for the characters and... *stops self now*
Anyway.
As for consciousness in writing allegory - I'm exactly like you, actually. I'm always going from the symbolic first & unravelling it : I do that. In writing poetry (which is the only sort of thing I've written and completed), I always start with images and ideas that later shape themselves into the meaning. Writing introduces the metaphor in a sense - I was calling it conscious because I'm always aware of it by the end of the writing - aware of every single little thing. As I tweak and edit, I'm super-precise as I know exactly what I mean... but only then, at the end. I, too, start with the symbolic and the meaning writes itself. Sort of. :)
Ugly communist elves, indeed. :D I was bored with the prevalence of monarchy in fantasy - decided to bring in communism. Bored with the beautiful pristine yet-somehow-biologically-compatible elf, so they're ugly now. And probably human (so probably not elves at all... but were they to begin with, ultimately?).
What I'm actually surprised about, in terms of HP AUs and HP in general (given how extensive the fandom is in terms of covering everything possible), is the lack of scifi elements in fic. Where's the cybermagic AU? The other planets? Aliens? Muggle experimentation on wizards in some post-war, dystopic future timeline - with needles and magical physics and glass cages? And of course, the lack of cowboys. I need to just go write fic more than I do (and I completely do... it just never goes places. Though maybe I'll fix up my ideas for BB H/D - which I can't draw for this time 'round - and write a proper fic). Or, just draw things and make people write for me. :) :) :) Because I am a lazy whore. :D
And, finally, magical realism. In terms of Latin American stuff, I've only read a few of Gabriel Garcia Marquez's books (read 'Of Love and Other Demons' - I think you would adore it - it's one of my favorite books of all time. The love. The love.) and some Allende... and probably some others that I can't think of. And I've only read a little urban fantasy... You should read 'the Tooth Fairy' too (Graham Joyce) - there's strange, fucked-up, beautiful fantasy for you. *pimps out her favorite books*
Hee. ♥
no subject
Date: 2005-09-08 08:49 am (UTC)Ascention as destruction!! That sounds great and tragic. Sort of like the idea/metaphor of Savior As Falling Star (Jesus??) except like, less over-the-top, maybe, I dunno. Not so much martyrdom but being saved by the ephemeral appeals to me. And I've always been obsessed with beauty/hideousness and.... all the rest. From an early, impressionable age, all that :D
It's hard to take Tarot cards too seriously as symbols 'cause they're so layered!! And post-HBP!Draco is like, -begging- to be the Hanged Man, I think. Well, in the best of worlds. Plus! The thing about Tarot symbology is that every mutation is unique and special-- like, you can't 'redo' it, 'cause every little thing changes so much. A personal Tarot would be a very revealing thing of an artist, I think.... Plus, no need to draw them all, just one or two would be amazing :D Not that I'm biased or... anything. Magician!Harry!!! :D Um ^^;;
I think I know what I mean the more I say things-- like, a process of self-analysis. 'Sooo, that's what I mean... huh'. It's good to um, not be alone :D With poems, I'm aware faster than with longer pieces, 'cause I can see them at a glance more and they're more of a single work rather than a hodgepodge. I mean, once you pass something like 30 pages, it's hard to think of the story as just this one thing... it gets away from me, anyway.
I would totally write for a wacked-out AU premise if you drew it, especially if you drew something sequential that gave a timeline or multiple scenes :D :D :D I'm probably not the person to do cybermagic, but the other stuff... glass cages, possibly cowboys, hell, ugly elves.... (cousins of house-elves gone wild in Norway, some migrating to Canada... gone on a vacation to England except there was a war on...) You should definitely try to write for the BB H/D if you have ideas!! I think with me, 'going places' just means going at it for long enough... like, once you reach a certain point, plot either happens naturally, or someone dies :>
I've heard great things about Graham Joyce!! I should really get to that :D
And you should try urban fantasy like Nina Kiriki Hoffman & Emma Bull & Charles deLint :D :D :D ♥
no subject
Date: 2005-09-08 09:48 pm (UTC)I am obsessed with beauty/hideousness and all that... I think, fundamentally, I don't truly believe any of the ultimate dichotomies/dualisms exist in actuality (things like male/female, good/evil, up/down, zero/infinity, beauty/ugliness, etc etc etc). Therefore, I love pushing their boundaries (or flipping them altogether) in real life because, for me, I'm not actually breaking anything... but because of my culture, that pretending can be so powerful. Ohhhh, how I love it, my own little subversions. *glee*
I could do a small series of tarot cards... Hn. I will have to ponder this. :D It'd be fun just to see how much I could surprise people with my choices of characters (notice: subversion. yes, i am obnoxious.)
Poems are easier (so much easier) than fiction, yes. It is the condensing of the thoughts - they are easier to visualize and work with. I have a similar problem with long things. I lose track of what I'm doing. My tentative BB H/D fic is the only thing I've written that, at the length it is, I've been able to keep track of. It's still tight (if amazingly, uneditedingly crappy) and a coherant whole for me, which is very surprising. Even weirder (the whole fic weirds me out - it's actually working *mind boggles) is that I have a plot... it's just that I'm lazy and I have to be in the perfect mood to write it well. Meh meh meh. If I write it fast enough, I might just illustrate the whole thing myself and post it somewhere. :D Heh heh heh.
If you wrote a wacked-out AU story, I completely would illustrate it - chronologically, whatever. Sadly, I leave the US in six weeks (haha, DEADLINES OMG *dies*), so it'd have to be done real soon or wait 'til next summer. :) BUT I WOULD. COWBOYS. CYBERMAGIC. EITHER OR. *glee* Heee. UGLY NORWEGIAN COMMUNIST ELVES TOO OF COURSE.
:) And Graham Joyce is an amazing writer. I've only read too of his books - but the Tooth Fairy. God. The Tooth Fairy. It just. a;weifja;eifa;ieeeeeeeee I need to draw art for that. I've been meaning too. Forever. Gah.
♥ ♥ ♥
(oh, and if you finish or think you'll finish your BB H/D fic before I leave - send me a bit and I'll draw you a BB H/D illustration. I won't be here in February but would still draw something for you that could be posted then. :D)