(forget men-- gimme some hot tree lovin'!)
Apr. 3rd, 2005 08:42 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaSometimes it's really hard to tell where me reading too much into things stops and people being stupid begins. I mean, I know I'm oversensitive, but I also know that underneath all the PC phrasing & surface politeness one sees in print media, at least, there's still a lot of messed up thinking going on.
Case in point: this old review of Gravitation's manga when it first came out, by some guy who works in a book store. He says he has "nothing against homosexuality" but, quote, "I'm not gay, and thus it was hard for me to connect to characters experiencing emotions that I'll never have."
People are so quick to disclaim works with "possibly objectionable content", and on the one hand I understand that, 'cause who wants to be squicked or disturbed if they don't feel like it, but on the other hand, I have huge, huge issues with what's considered "objectionable content", still, underneath all the PCness in the world. I mean, if someone thought two black people kissing was "objectionable"-- well, that's their problem, right, who's going to warn against that? Oh yes, wait, because it's just bad manners to be a homophobe, whereas it's omg bigoted to be racist. It's the double standard that pisses me off so much, really; I mean, if people wanted to warn for the PG-13 type kissing like that manga has with straight stories, that'd be fine. But that wouldn't really merit much of a mention, now would it?
It always bothers me. I don't mean to pick on this particular case because it's just an example that's wide-spread. Well-meaning people often say that "gay stories" aren't their "thing" because, surprise! They're not gay!
Okay, just... I wish people would think about what they were saying, that is all. For instance: imagine if I said I don't want to read about black people (to harp on a stupid analogy) because, dude, I'm not black. How can I possibly understand the weird and alien emotions of those scary scary people of other races? Clearly I couldn't, because we can only understand the feelings of people who're just like us, right? That's why men have "men's stories" and women have "women's stories"-- actually, this isn't even a joke, because they do. And... outside the question of a general preference for a certain kind of story according to gender, the idea that these kind of stories are limited in appeal to a single gender... that's so prejudiced, I have no words to express how much it pisses me off at the moment.
I feel I'm not being too extremist when I say that if you like love stories in general, and you're really really really not prejudiced, then there should be nothing to stop you from fully and deeply appreciating a gay love story if you're straight (and vice versa, of course: because hey, don't we take it for granted that gay people would be able to appreciate the full worth of straight love stories like, say, Shakespeare or something?) This is outside the question of whether you as a reader would find it erotic, were it to have a sex-scene. Understanding emotions in fiction & real life and getting off on something are, surprisingly, not the same thing. The question of erotic appeal isn't something that always needs to be linked to love-stories in general; it's just a common, but not necessary, element. If it's a good story, that element could be used to further its emotional arc, and again have an appeal to all audiences, given they're not prejudiced.
Bottom line, people who say one could only understand the things one has experienced oneself in every sense of the word have so little imagination that they scare me, and if by some odd chance they call themselves fantasy or sci-fi fans, they should be ashamed of themselves. And perhaps... perhaps... I shall hold off on blanket accusations of homophobia (as that might imply these folks have more complexity than they do), and just make a blanket accusation of a frightful lack of imagination, because there are so many other ways that's in evidence in the world. Perhaps, yes, all these people are perfectly un-prejudiced, clean as daisies, it's just that they have all the emotional range and imagination of a tree-stump. Trees are kind of sensitive, though. I don't want to insult trees. -.-
Anyway, obviously it's hard for me to talk about this topic without going off on a rant & losing most of my credibility, if I ever had any. *sigh*
Case in point: this old review of Gravitation's manga when it first came out, by some guy who works in a book store. He says he has "nothing against homosexuality" but, quote, "I'm not gay, and thus it was hard for me to connect to characters experiencing emotions that I'll never have."
People are so quick to disclaim works with "possibly objectionable content", and on the one hand I understand that, 'cause who wants to be squicked or disturbed if they don't feel like it, but on the other hand, I have huge, huge issues with what's considered "objectionable content", still, underneath all the PCness in the world. I mean, if someone thought two black people kissing was "objectionable"-- well, that's their problem, right, who's going to warn against that? Oh yes, wait, because it's just bad manners to be a homophobe, whereas it's omg bigoted to be racist. It's the double standard that pisses me off so much, really; I mean, if people wanted to warn for the PG-13 type kissing like that manga has with straight stories, that'd be fine. But that wouldn't really merit much of a mention, now would it?
It always bothers me. I don't mean to pick on this particular case because it's just an example that's wide-spread. Well-meaning people often say that "gay stories" aren't their "thing" because, surprise! They're not gay!
Okay, just... I wish people would think about what they were saying, that is all. For instance: imagine if I said I don't want to read about black people (to harp on a stupid analogy) because, dude, I'm not black. How can I possibly understand the weird and alien emotions of those scary scary people of other races? Clearly I couldn't, because we can only understand the feelings of people who're just like us, right? That's why men have "men's stories" and women have "women's stories"-- actually, this isn't even a joke, because they do. And... outside the question of a general preference for a certain kind of story according to gender, the idea that these kind of stories are limited in appeal to a single gender... that's so prejudiced, I have no words to express how much it pisses me off at the moment.
I feel I'm not being too extremist when I say that if you like love stories in general, and you're really really really not prejudiced, then there should be nothing to stop you from fully and deeply appreciating a gay love story if you're straight (and vice versa, of course: because hey, don't we take it for granted that gay people would be able to appreciate the full worth of straight love stories like, say, Shakespeare or something?) This is outside the question of whether you as a reader would find it erotic, were it to have a sex-scene. Understanding emotions in fiction & real life and getting off on something are, surprisingly, not the same thing. The question of erotic appeal isn't something that always needs to be linked to love-stories in general; it's just a common, but not necessary, element. If it's a good story, that element could be used to further its emotional arc, and again have an appeal to all audiences, given they're not prejudiced.
Bottom line, people who say one could only understand the things one has experienced oneself in every sense of the word have so little imagination that they scare me, and if by some odd chance they call themselves fantasy or sci-fi fans, they should be ashamed of themselves. And perhaps... perhaps... I shall hold off on blanket accusations of homophobia (as that might imply these folks have more complexity than they do), and just make a blanket accusation of a frightful lack of imagination, because there are so many other ways that's in evidence in the world. Perhaps, yes, all these people are perfectly un-prejudiced, clean as daisies, it's just that they have all the emotional range and imagination of a tree-stump. Trees are kind of sensitive, though. I don't want to insult trees. -.-
Anyway, obviously it's hard for me to talk about this topic without going off on a rant & losing most of my credibility, if I ever had any. *sigh*
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
threading, unthreading, getting frazzled
Date: 2005-04-03 05:59 pm (UTC)I don't think you denied him identification ... he categorically said he could not get into gay fiction I thought, so we're still at the outset.
Gender orientation only become important when you have more contact with "the others" in what is generally labeled as "real life", I heard *g*
In my experience, complaints about fics being too real only happen in rants against people saying "hey, if a guy is fucking a guy in a chair, their hip-bones cannot touch" and they make me mad. It's not a general, qualitative argument, as it is applied like many others when it suits any given person. What is real to whom to what degree?
OK, I do agree that straight females enjoying to read about gay sex might want something different, in case it was what I had been looking for, but remember that all-too-many fics are just seme-uke, going back to the seemingly eternal power/subjugation formula that I for one tried to liberate myself from, while 90 percent of the slash readers here delight in it (see my previous comment on not being able to join the organised groups of whatwasitagain ;)).
Luckily, rhetorically more competent people have elegantly and in few words already pointed out how you can never ever compare the liberation of watching m/m porn to what men do watching f/f porn, and it would be beyond naive to even start trying to put an "equality" angle on that. Sadly, I never ever have quotes at the ready, nor links or names, but I am sure you know what i mean.
I am not sure if I envy you and the large majority in here who are either bi or lesbian ... I wonder if I would feel empowered, but AAMOF I don't like femme-slash at all, simply because like all f/f porn (also the so called feminist one) follows the same schemata the "normal" ones do. Watching a woman can never have the same effect as watching or reading about m/m without an f in sight.
*tired*
But it's ... natural (or not) to feel even more alienated in groups we should feel part of; at least I find it so much worse. Not sure if you already meant to say this, but if everyone expects to find like-mindedness, disagreement and sharp disappointment are far more likely than if you don't. ... Oh boy, posting boards? *shudder* ... *more shuddering* scary places, watch the spilled acid.
'tis how you are, not what you like ... sadly s.o. I thought my close friend is of exactly the opposite opinion ... and as I read upwards as well as downwards, I am going to repeat what you actually just said up there, but it's 3am and I am woozy)
Ah, and your last paragraph is exactly what I keep telling
anyone not lucky enough to escape me, not sure if I said it to you before ... it is the attitude, not the agreeage! I sometimes call it "nice" but then that's because I tend to like those people, but what I mean is that we are not the same, maybe not even that percentage-compatible in my case :S but the intelleekirky-ness/preparedness-to-commonicate-in-a-compatible-way makes up for that.I think one of us should have split one of those comments up *g*