reenka

Sometimes it's really hard to tell where me reading too much into things stops and people being stupid begins. I mean, I know I'm oversensitive, but I also know that underneath all the PC phrasing & surface politeness one sees in print media, at least, there's still a lot of messed up thinking going on.

Case in point: this old review of Gravitation's manga when it first came out, by some guy who works in a book store. He says he has "nothing against homosexuality" but, quote, "I'm not gay, and thus it was hard for me to connect to characters experiencing emotions that I'll never have."
People are so quick to disclaim works with "possibly objectionable content", and on the one hand I understand that, 'cause who wants to be squicked or disturbed if they don't feel like it, but on the other hand, I have huge, huge issues with what's considered "objectionable content", still, underneath all the PCness in the world. I mean, if someone thought two black people kissing was "objectionable"-- well, that's their problem, right, who's going to warn against that? Oh yes, wait, because it's just bad manners to be a homophobe, whereas it's omg bigoted to be racist. It's the double standard that pisses me off so much, really; I mean, if people wanted to warn for the PG-13 type kissing like that manga has with straight stories, that'd be fine. But that wouldn't really merit much of a mention, now would it?

It always bothers me. I don't mean to pick on this particular case because it's just an example that's wide-spread. Well-meaning people often say that "gay stories" aren't their "thing" because, surprise! They're not gay!

Okay, just... I wish people would think about what they were saying, that is all. For instance: imagine if I said I don't want to read about black people (to harp on a stupid analogy) because, dude, I'm not black. How can I possibly understand the weird and alien emotions of those scary scary people of other races? Clearly I couldn't, because we can only understand the feelings of people who're just like us, right? That's why men have "men's stories" and women have "women's stories"-- actually, this isn't even a joke, because they do. And... outside the question of a general preference for a certain kind of story according to gender, the idea that these kind of stories are limited in appeal to a single gender... that's so prejudiced, I have no words to express how much it pisses me off at the moment.

I feel I'm not being too extremist when I say that if you like love stories in general, and you're really really really not prejudiced, then there should be nothing to stop you from fully and deeply appreciating a gay love story if you're straight (and vice versa, of course: because hey, don't we take it for granted that gay people would be able to appreciate the full worth of straight love stories like, say, Shakespeare or something?) This is outside the question of whether you as a reader would find it erotic, were it to have a sex-scene. Understanding emotions in fiction & real life and getting off on something are, surprisingly, not the same thing. The question of erotic appeal isn't something that always needs to be linked to love-stories in general; it's just a common, but not necessary, element. If it's a good story, that element could be used to further its emotional arc, and again have an appeal to all audiences, given they're not prejudiced.

Bottom line, people who say one could only understand the things one has experienced oneself in every sense of the word have so little imagination that they scare me, and if by some odd chance they call themselves fantasy or sci-fi fans, they should be ashamed of themselves. And perhaps... perhaps... I shall hold off on blanket accusations of homophobia (as that might imply these folks have more complexity than they do), and just make a blanket accusation of a frightful lack of imagination, because there are so many other ways that's in evidence in the world. Perhaps, yes, all these people are perfectly un-prejudiced, clean as daisies, it's just that they have all the emotional range and imagination of a tree-stump. Trees are kind of sensitive, though. I don't want to insult trees. -.-

Anyway, obviously it's hard for me to talk about this topic without going off on a rant & losing most of my credibility, if I ever had any. *sigh*

Current Mood: oh-so-slightly pissed off

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Heheh I guess it makes sense it's getting long since we're talking about like, 10 not-quite-interlocking things at once :)) I wasn't really pretending, though, just joking in a self-deprecating way :P It's okay, in other words. Er.

I do feel sort of a lightbulb re: how the guy I was basically ranting at must've been feeling, though... if identification came into it, which I take for granted when I read myself and yet was denying him automatically. I suppose I just identify differently or with different things or something...? Like, gender/sexual orientation isn't so important (which is partly why I've always felt like I was missing something 'cause I don't label myself according to my gender or orientation, not in so much that I'm denying them but that I don't feel they define me)... though I don't seek out much girl/girl fic, it's more because of the power-plays and intensity I like being missing rather than feeling weird about identifying with wanting a girl, though I've heard other bi girls refer to it being too 'intimate' or too much like real life.

One does often hear about fics being too... 'real life-like' being a bad thing, in slash fandom at least. If you like reading about two guys doing it & you're a straight girl, usually you like escaping your gender on some level. At least, there are lots of theories to that effect, as in how it frees women to escape their gender roles through identifying with guys. So I'd have to wonder whether that bookstore guy would feel differently about a girl/girl romance-- he might, actually. On the other hand, how about all those stories where the protagonist is of one's opposite gender, wanting a person of the same gender...? Do people identify with the person the protagonist wants and not the protagonist if they're a different gender...? I have now officially confused myself.

I sort of feel alienated within groups I should feel a part of also, but... I think that's because people will naturally create misunderstandings and disagree between themselves, 'cause it's more about how -people- are rather than about what they like, which is less important. Like, this is why really different-seeming people can become such close friends & 'get' each other so well-- it's more about clicking emotionally with a person, which can result from shared interests and thus similar motivators/emotional triggers, but it's not a guarrantee. You can like the same thing for different/unusual reasons, too. And when you like really different aspects of the same thing, sometimes that's even more alienating than liking different things altogether... maybe :> Anyway, I -have- had experiences of group bonding in college, and they were more with geeks in general than geeks who liked the exact same things I did-- like, they liked fantasy & sci-fi movies & computers, but -different- movies or they reacted differently, and I was just discovering things and exploring myself, so it was fun. I was in a curious outward-looking mindset, looking to expand my horizons, and geek circles in college are great for that :D

Like, I find it really fun to just be around people who're intellectual/geeky/quirky, but it's not because we're the same but because we can communicate more easily with more shared reference points (like, Monty Python, Star Trek, comics, anime, gaming (oh, GAMING!!... and I don't even game) the evil that is Windows, fantasy, writing, conventions, Linux, queerness... all bonding topics, but since there's a wide range of geeky subjects, you don't have to match them all-- it's a percentage compatibility thing).

From:

yourpoison.livejournal.com

Yeah, I think the distorted-looking-glass reading pattern is a often girl thing, but boys love superhero stories, which is similar. I think this is why people love stories about heroes (and superheroes) and happy endings-- it's allowing one to dissociate just enough so the truth doesn't hurt as much. So if something awful happens to Spiderman, we know he can take it-- and we can take it, too. In a way, I think the practice of projecting the character onto oneself would be something like acting, actually-- it requires a certain kind of mutability of self-perception. The best actor believes they -are- that character, in a sense, right? It always seemed to be that's what writing was like-- except one acts out all the parts. Also, I think a lot of writers use exaggerated/elevated traits allegorically or as a way of using that layer of fantasy as salve, as a fairy-tale which disguises its central reality to make it bearable... At least in stories with heroes in them.

Heheh this idea of the romance being the chase rather than the arrival-- it's why I have a hard time understanding the psychology/motivation behind writing drawn-out stories after the characters get together. Like, the petty jealousies, the disagreements, the tiny spats, the efforts to keep the flame burning, the break-ups, etc-- and there are a lot of women (generally) writing those sorts of fics, but I don't know if they feel as if they're really romance. It's almost like they're just stories about relationships, yeah, but not romance stories. It's always befuddled me even more that people feel compelled to write this sort of stuff about Harry & Draco, who're like, made to write about the journey to the point where they can, y'know, -tolerate- each other-- and instead, what do you have, post-OoTP at least... a glut of stories where they're together almost from the start. Bleh. Heheh this is a good example of fandom (a group of 'like-minded people') and forced identification actually spoiling one for a subject-- since it's largely fandom that's turned me off H/D to the point where not even avoiding fandom helps-- because it used to be what inspired me, too. Ah, well.

It's kind of scary to think I know nothing better than myself (ack, I am that bad, aren't I)... but yes. Although I sound a bit like I'm from a deserted island (the Deserted Island Effect) this way :D Yeah, I always felt it's everyone else who's the crazy freak :D

From:

http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/

Mmmmph. Yes. Again, if I dropped or overlooked an argument, poke me. Softly.

I don't think you denied him identification ... he categorically said he could not get into gay fiction I thought, so we're still at the outset.
Gender orientation only become important when you have more contact with "the others" in what is generally labeled as "real life", I heard *g*

In my experience, complaints about fics being too real only happen in rants against people saying "hey, if a guy is fucking a guy in a chair, their hip-bones cannot touch" and they make me mad. It's not a general, qualitative argument, as it is applied like many others when it suits any given person. What is real to whom to what degree?

OK, I do agree that straight females enjoying to read about gay sex might want something different, in case it was what I had been looking for, but remember that all-too-many fics are just seme-uke, going back to the seemingly eternal power/subjugation formula that I for one tried to liberate myself from, while 90 percent of the slash readers here delight in it (see my previous comment on not being able to join the organised groups of whatwasitagain ;)).

Luckily, rhetorically more competent people have elegantly and in few words already pointed out how you can never ever compare the liberation of watching m/m porn to what men do watching f/f porn, and it would be beyond naive to even start trying to put an "equality" angle on that. Sadly, I never ever have quotes at the ready, nor links or names, but I am sure you know what i mean.
I am not sure if I envy you and the large majority in here who are either bi or lesbian ... I wonder if I would feel empowered, but AAMOF I don't like femme-slash at all, simply because like all f/f porn (also the so called feminist one) follows the same schemata the "normal" ones do. Watching a woman can never have the same effect as watching or reading about m/m without an f in sight.
*tired*

But it's ... natural (or not) to feel even more alienated in groups we should feel part of; at least I find it so much worse. Not sure if you already meant to say this, but if everyone expects to find like-mindedness, disagreement and sharp disappointment are far more likely than if you don't. ... Oh boy, posting boards? *shudder* ... *more shuddering* scary places, watch the spilled acid.

'tis how you are, not what you like ... sadly s.o. I thought my close friend is of exactly the opposite opinion ... and as I read upwards as well as downwards, I am going to repeat what you actually just said up there, but it's 3am and I am woozy)

Ah, and your last paragraph is exactly what I keep telling ~~anyone not lucky enough to escape me~~, not sure if I said it to you before ... it is the attitude, not the agreeage! I sometimes call it "nice" but then that's because I tend to like those people, but what I mean is that we are not the same, maybe not even that percentage-compatible in my case :S but the intelleekirky-ness/preparedness-to-commonicate-in-a-compatible-way makes up for that.

I think one of us should have split one of those comments up *g*