(forget men-- gimme some hot tree lovin'!)

[reenka]

Sometimes it's really hard to tell where me reading too much into things stops and people being stupid begins. I mean, I know I'm oversensitive, but I also know that underneath all the PC phrasing & surface politeness one sees in print media, at least, there's still a lot of messed up thinking going on.

Case in point: this old review of Gravitation's manga when it first came out, by some guy who works in a book store. He says he has "nothing against homosexuality" but, quote, "I'm not gay, and thus it was hard for me to connect to characters experiencing emotions that I'll never have."
    People are so quick to disclaim works with "possibly objectionable content", and on the one hand I understand that, 'cause who wants to be squicked or disturbed if they don't feel like it, but on the other hand, I have huge, huge issues with what's considered "objectionable content", still, underneath all the PCness in the world. I mean, if someone thought two black people kissing was "objectionable"-- well, that's their problem, right, who's going to warn against that? Oh yes, wait, because it's just bad manners to be a homophobe, whereas it's omg bigoted to be racist. It's the double standard that pisses me off so much, really; I mean, if people wanted to warn for the PG-13 type kissing like that manga has with straight stories, that'd be fine. But that wouldn't really merit much of a mention, now would it?

It always bothers me. I don't mean to pick on this particular case because it's just an example that's wide-spread. Well-meaning people often say that "gay stories" aren't their "thing" because, surprise! They're not gay!

Okay, just... I wish people would think about what they were saying, that is all. For instance: imagine if I said I don't want to read about black people (to harp on a stupid analogy) because, dude, I'm not black. How can I possibly understand the weird and alien emotions of those scary scary people of other races? Clearly I couldn't, because we can only understand the feelings of people who're just like us, right? That's why men have "men's stories" and women have "women's stories"-- actually, this isn't even a joke, because they do. And... outside the question of a general preference for a certain kind of story according to gender, the idea that these kind of stories are limited in appeal to a single gender... that's so prejudiced, I have no words to express how much it pisses me off at the moment.

I feel I'm not being too extremist when I say that if you like love stories in general, and you're really really really not prejudiced, then there should be nothing to stop you from fully and deeply appreciating a gay love story if you're straight (and vice versa, of course: because hey, don't we take it for granted that gay people would be able to appreciate the full worth of straight love stories like, say, Shakespeare or something?) This is outside the question of whether you as a reader would find it erotic, were it to have a sex-scene. Understanding emotions in fiction & real life and getting off on something are, surprisingly, not the same thing. The question of erotic appeal isn't something that always needs to be linked to love-stories in general; it's just a common, but not necessary, element. If it's a good story, that element could be used to further its emotional arc, and again have an appeal to all audiences, given they're not prejudiced.

Bottom line, people who say one could only understand the things one has experienced oneself in every sense of the word have so little imagination that they scare me, and if by some odd chance they call themselves fantasy or sci-fi fans, they should be ashamed of themselves. And perhaps... perhaps... I shall hold off on blanket accusations of homophobia (as that might imply these folks have more complexity than they do), and just make a blanket accusation of a frightful lack of imagination, because there are so many other ways that's in evidence in the world. Perhaps, yes, all these people are perfectly un-prejudiced, clean as daisies, it's just that they have all the emotional range and imagination of a tree-stump. Trees are kind of sensitive, though. I don't want to insult trees. -.-

Anyway, obviously it's hard for me to talk about this topic without going off on a rant & losing most of my credibility, if I ever had any. *sigh*

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Word.
I always wonder a bit when even ok-people have to add to descriptions of films or books with gay themes or characters that "but this is really universal", but of course that's just me.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I really wish I could pin it down to 'just' lack of imagination, in truth, but I do think that there's rampant and still not fully recognized homophobia and all other types of prejudice in the world-- and often enough, it's all in the subtle details these days. People get acculturated & accustomed to not admitting to being disturbed or alienated or whatever, but they still feel that way. And really, what makes it even more hilarious in a sickly way is that according to the Kinsey Scale, all these people can't be THAT straight, y'know? Since the 100% straight or gay thing is an extreme, not an average. Ugh. Repressed, repressed, repressed. Bastards! (Okay, that was unhelpful, but it felt good. I think my bi pride is getting mixed in somehow -.-)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Heh, I don't even think that was that ranty, and it surely is necessary.

But now I have to go and play devil's advocate.
Because at least half of the gay population stresses that being gay is more than just preferring same sex sex. It's about NOT being married-with-kids or even have monogamous relationships. There are many gays who stress that they don't just want chick-equivalents-with-dicks. So, while I completely agree with your post, in the time between commenting first and now answering your comment I have to add that if people say "this gay story is universal" may it already means it is mainstream palatable ...

Damn my bloody seing-all-sides-ness, argh.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

But there's a difference between 'gay culture' and being homosexual or bisexual, I think-- I mean, yeah, in the current Western gay culture, it's considered lame to be like those staid straight people or whatever, but that's just a kind of backlash against the mainstream culture refusing to accept these people (quite violently), I think. For decades and centuries, gay/gay-curious/whatever people were in the closet and lived lies and so on, so I guess it's natural to be like, 'whatever we're like, we're NOT LIKE THEM'. However, just because they think so doesn't make it true anymore than the straight guy thinking he's not like those 'okay gay folk' and thus can't understand their weird feelings of 'love' is true.

People think they're different, and of course there's some truth to that, but there's a line between being different and being unable to really understand another kind of er, differentness in a person. On the other hand (since I tend to argue with myself as much as anything, too) my own view is probably biased because of course I would understand both the gay & straight type narratives since I'm bi & everything. That's the easy explanation. *sigh* On the other other hand (heh), being a certain thing (human, say) has never meant you could understand it well; people aren't necessarily all that aware/intelligent about comprehending their own emotions & motivations. In fact, that's one of the rarest abilities-- self-awareness is pretty hard to come by and it's considered kind of geeky/sissy in most cultures, too.

YES, I AM OPPRESSED.

you open old wounds here

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Thanks for bringing that up and smoothing my turmoil-ed thoughts a bit!!!

I'm not bi and still understand it. Actually, better. I guess I am a female transvestite *nodnodnod* But then again, why do we have to be bi or different in order to sympathise, or even understand? The maddest I ever got, and I have the quote written down somewhere, was when a gay guy said about some film that he was finally represented, because unlike all other humans they never were. And I freaked out because no female on film has ever had anything to do with me, I never felt represented nor is it likely I ever will be - but because I am white and probably straight, I am supposed to be?!

I HAVE BEEN OPPRESSED ALL MY LIFE and even slash cannot eleviate that burden ... and I will stop now because I sense the most serious rant of my life coming on.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Meep. I should probably say that I said I was oppressed kind of in jest ^^; Oppressed about how I'm so uh, wankily introspective and really that's considered so wanky and lame, and it probably is, but then other people could use a little introspection sometimes here and there, y'know. That's what I meant. But yes.

I don't think I ever expected or wanted to be directly represented... I mean, I suppose that's why I -write-, to express myself, but it doesn't make sense to me for other people to express me for me, if that makes sense. I do identify emotionally with any protagonist I like, so it becomes as if the story was about me... and in a way, as per the quote: Mutat nomine de te fabula narratur. (Change the name, and it is of you the story is told). I've always felt like that. I've always thought all great, worthwhile fiction was going to feel like it applied directly to the reader, even if that story's setting and characters were nothing like the reader on the surface. And I don't think I've ever read about a person who was that much "like me" in the majority of ways, but emotionally, there are a lot of people "like me", y'know? Not ones with my history & personality, but a lot with my feelings, I guess...? The reason for alienation often differs, but the alienation itself persists, that is.

It has always been odd to me that people actually look for surface similarities in the characters they see in stories, since I've never done that, so perhaps in a way I'm the one being solipsistic here, or at least it cuts two ways. I do find a special meaning in stories about immigrant girls, for instance, but I prefer they be from China or anyplace other than Russia, because I feel like fiction about Russian immigrants would hit too close to home and I wouldn't be able to enjoy it, being reminded of the bad parts of my own life, I guess. It's odd. I don't particularly enjoy fics about my own sensitive issues or the things that I most painfully identify with deep down, but I don't think that's normal...? Perhaps this is because I read for escapism while most people read for... whatever the opposite of that is? Mirroring? That seems like a post in itself. Suffice it to say I never read for mirroring and the idea kind of squicks me :> So if I found someone 'just like me' in a story, not only emotionally but also in terms of various quirks of history and background/preference, I'd be turned off. And I don't dislike myself at all, I don't think.

But then, I've always been attracted to difference the way others are attracted to sameness ^^;;

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Uhm, yes.

*lol* Did I embarrass you with my outburst? Tell me the truth. Aaaand once again with the soothing bit!
Because that's what I used to think, and with all that ... writing about identities and queer = different I got a couple more insecurities added. Been attracted to difference all my life, and now in my dotage *cough* I regret that, just like the Taiwanese partner-ad predicted!

I can only nod to all you say and wonder if you can understand that I feel or felt the same while saying what I did and do? Because I was forcibly torn out of the general identifying-with-various-sorts-of-feelings at some point. Identifying with alienation is of course the opposite of alienation, IIMSS.

I had not even been aware of people looking for surface similarities! I think only over the internet did I encounter people talking like that. And I guess the makers behind series or the marketers of stories saying who they aim at, because I had never considered that a necessity; to add a child to a series is a good example, or a teenager to make teenies identify more. But - it is the norm and it works! It only alienates ME.

Yes again. Not exactly, not too close to home. Hence fiction, and also sci-fi. I find issues I can feel with and still not cry about. I do think what you described is perfectly normal, but as you said - hardly anyone is introspective enough to think about it. It really really is normal.
And as you just said, you are looking for mirroring, but in the looking-glass-way, i.e. with solutions and DISTANCE.

I think most people don't think they read for mirroring, I think that's the publishers and marketing departments and journalists and scientists talking, from the outside, in hindsight, making sense.

Hm. I should apologise for making you seem normal, right?! Sorry! :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I was more embarrassed that I was the one who could appear to have an outburst I didn't have ^^;; Hehe. Though I'm very easily embarrassed by almost any show of emotion; it is kind of sad, considering I'm always talking about and dissecting it :)) Or maybe that's why.

Man, this is such a meaty subject. *grins* I like the delicate distinction between the idea of projecting myself onto a favorite/liked/understood character-- usually the protagonist, for me-- and thus having to have them fit me-- and projecting the character onto myself (which is what I -think- I usually do), and thusly suspending aspects of myself that don't fit. It's probably generally a bit of both, so it's complicated. It's also interesting, the way love stories in particular get responded to-- with females, it's often that we sort of uh, 'shop' for guys as if it were real life, approving or disapproving of the heroine's choices as if we were about to date them ourselves. And it doesn't seem to matter what the heroine's personality is like in that case, or how similar she is to oneself-- it's all about thinking the 'Other' is cool & sexy & desireable. So perhaps it's this tendency to play pretend-date with love-stories that makes some guys uncomfortable with gay love-stories? Because they don't want to date that guy, no matter whose perspective they take and whom they turn into the wanted 'Other'. Hmm.

Identifying with alienation is of course the opposite of alienation
Heheh, I really like that. It is true, and perhaps this is why I've always been something less than a rebel and than a follower at the same time, ever since I was a teenager. I've always known there were people like me, who felt alienated, and that comforted me even though it was only theory for me. Merely reading books made me feel less alone, and I was -really- really isolated in High School and had no friends and no one to talk to and so on. I'm not saying it wasn't my fault, because I -am- antisocial too :D But yeah, I felt both alienated and... not, which is what kept me from going insane too much or drowning in the angst completely, maybe.

Also... yeah, this is why organized groups of the alienated (goths, punks, even queers) kind of... er... don't work for me. If I actually became organized myself, I would no longer be able to act/feel alienated... it'd be like a game or an act or something. But maybe here's where you come across the fact that people differentiate between layers of groups and of alienation-- so there's -their- group and a -larger- group and a still larger group beyond that, and then there's The Man, which is like, a theoretical group that doesn't exist-- whereas for me there's only me & whoever I'm talking to. There is no group. There is no cup. There is no try, only do... there is only the Force... er, sorry :))

But yes, that distance between me & the text is crucial. I think I'm remembering something... about the distance between lovers being crucial to the feeling of romance (i.e., a barrier against full familiarity), and it's similar, I think. Looking-glass-way is a great way to put it, too :D It's hard to understand things when they're just identical to everything else you know... but that's just how -my- mind works ^^;;

I've always felt perfectly normal, in a skewed sort of way that most people wouldn't understand, I guess? I act & think differently as far as I can tell, but it's more method than substance... maybe. What I mean is, most people who know me think I'm weird or unpredictable or... uh... different/unique/whatever-- and I feel different, 'cause few enough people really demonstrably understand or know me that I can't help but feel that way-- but even so, I know this is like an illusion, if you know what I mean.

I totally agree about the categorizing/labeling being the marketing departments & businessmen's fault, heheh, though people in general seem to go along with it so well (no surprise, that's how it is with everything, but). People like being categorized and direct-marketed to. It makes them feel special, maybe...?? Heh. -.-

now do tell me if I forgot a paragraph or subject when scrolling up and down

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

*g* And now I am really embarrassed and should probably also say I was pretending? ;P
Man, this is really getting long, let me get my steak-knife ... yum yum gulp gobble ...

"tendency to play pretend-date with love-stories"
Nice description of how women read romances, and very fitting when you just read what any given blogger says about characters in books or comics.
In respect to men this is also the literary version of the reason they cannot bear to watch gay porn, as men there would have to identify (let's just leave that word for simplicity's sake) with a person fancying a man or being fancied by a man, no way out.


"organized groups of the alienated"
Nice phrase again, and that's just what they are.
And why I started to think and was forced to feel the lack of identification, because when at uni I was technically with people who knew about indie films and listened to indie music, I could not talk with them and they were not interested in me, so distance is always helpful in keeping up the illusion of one/man vs. all the other groups. Once you dip in your toe, the circles of hell get moving ...
I do find that this concerns me more than any other person I know, maybe for similar reasons as it does you, but I also get the (outsider pov ahead) feeling that at least here you are less alienated as you do enjoy lots and lots of fanart.
Now I know already what you said about not feeling immersed in fandom, I am taking this to a micro-level, in that you do find yourself and your feelings, maybe including identification, in the H/D stories and art you write about!

What I never undderstood, no matter with how many people I talked, is how these groups or layers are supposed to be concentric, because I ... overlap. I am _inbetween_. I like the music of those three groups and the books of these two and the films of that one etc. :S

"projecting the character onto myself (which is what I -think- I usually do), and thusly suspending aspects of myself that don't fit"
That is a concept that I never managed to make work for me, but in speaking with authors, esp. asking them why their heroines were traditionally beautiful, I got exactly the same reply. Maybe it is more common, and it would make more sense than mirroring again; as I said, most readers (and I think we do speak about women readers here mostly) want this distanced looking-glass figure not-quite-of-themselves ...
Argh, I wish I could do that! It sounds empowering ... to a degree. I tend to be the opposite actually. I clearly remember a time when I suddenly thought "but what would all those people in this book make of me" and something shattered and I no longer enjoyed any book that much anymore, because I could not suspend aspects of myself and so I simply did not fit. Hmmmm.

"the distance between lovers being crucial to the feeling of romance"
I only know the one that says distance is the difference between tragedy and comedy, but this one sounds right to me as well. If romance is the element of surprise (*g* I just read Snicket on that subject*) and uncertainty, then closeness can only kill romance. And I suppose even I like romance stories in which there is still change, which is still the way, and once the target is reached, once the lovers are united the romance is over. *bookmarks this thread*

If you live inside your head and have always done so, and feel as one vs. the general rest-of-humanity, why shouldn't you feel normal. Normal is what is usual for one, and you know nothing and no-one better than yourself! So only contact with people, and esp. feedback on how they perceive you, would ever make you "different". Does that sound right??


*lol* That sounds off, to feel special for being categorized ... but I think I know what you mean. I spend hours clicking through Amazon recommendations ...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh I guess it makes sense it's getting long since we're talking about like, 10 not-quite-interlocking things at once :)) I wasn't really pretending, though, just joking in a self-deprecating way :P It's okay, in other words. Er.

I do feel sort of a lightbulb re: how the guy I was basically ranting at must've been feeling, though... if identification came into it, which I take for granted when I read myself and yet was denying him automatically. I suppose I just identify differently or with different things or something...? Like, gender/sexual orientation isn't so important (which is partly why I've always felt like I was missing something 'cause I don't label myself according to my gender or orientation, not in so much that I'm denying them but that I don't feel they define me)... though I don't seek out much girl/girl fic, it's more because of the power-plays and intensity I like being missing rather than feeling weird about identifying with wanting a girl, though I've heard other bi girls refer to it being too 'intimate' or too much like real life.

One does often hear about fics being too... 'real life-like' being a bad thing, in slash fandom at least. If you like reading about two guys doing it & you're a straight girl, usually you like escaping your gender on some level. At least, there are lots of theories to that effect, as in how it frees women to escape their gender roles through identifying with guys. So I'd have to wonder whether that bookstore guy would feel differently about a girl/girl romance-- he might, actually. On the other hand, how about all those stories where the protagonist is of one's opposite gender, wanting a person of the same gender...? Do people identify with the person the protagonist wants and not the protagonist if they're a different gender...? I have now officially confused myself.

I sort of feel alienated within groups I should feel a part of also, but... I think that's because people will naturally create misunderstandings and disagree between themselves, 'cause it's more about how -people- are rather than about what they like, which is less important. Like, this is why really different-seeming people can become such close friends & 'get' each other so well-- it's more about clicking emotionally with a person, which can result from shared interests and thus similar motivators/emotional triggers, but it's not a guarrantee. You can like the same thing for different/unusual reasons, too. And when you like really different aspects of the same thing, sometimes that's even more alienating than liking different things altogether... maybe :> Anyway, I -have- had experiences of group bonding in college, and they were more with geeks in general than geeks who liked the exact same things I did-- like, they liked fantasy & sci-fi movies & computers, but -different- movies or they reacted differently, and I was just discovering things and exploring myself, so it was fun. I was in a curious outward-looking mindset, looking to expand my horizons, and geek circles in college are great for that :D

Like, I find it really fun to just be around people who're intellectual/geeky/quirky, but it's not because we're the same but because we can communicate more easily with more shared reference points (like, Monty Python, Star Trek, comics, anime, gaming (oh, GAMING!!... and I don't even game) the evil that is Windows, fantasy, writing, conventions, Linux, queerness... all bonding topics, but since there's a wide range of geeky subjects, you don't have to match them all-- it's a percentage compatibility thing).

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think the distorted-looking-glass reading pattern is a often girl thing, but boys love superhero stories, which is similar. I think this is why people love stories about heroes (and superheroes) and happy endings-- it's allowing one to dissociate just enough so the truth doesn't hurt as much. So if something awful happens to Spiderman, we know he can take it-- and we can take it, too. In a way, I think the practice of projecting the character onto oneself would be something like acting, actually-- it requires a certain kind of mutability of self-perception. The best actor believes they -are- that character, in a sense, right? It always seemed to be that's what writing was like-- except one acts out all the parts. Also, I think a lot of writers use exaggerated/elevated traits allegorically or as a way of using that layer of fantasy as salve, as a fairy-tale which disguises its central reality to make it bearable... At least in stories with heroes in them.

Heheh this idea of the romance being the chase rather than the arrival-- it's why I have a hard time understanding the psychology/motivation behind writing drawn-out stories after the characters get together. Like, the petty jealousies, the disagreements, the tiny spats, the efforts to keep the flame burning, the break-ups, etc-- and there are a lot of women (generally) writing those sorts of fics, but I don't know if they feel as if they're really romance. It's almost like they're just stories about relationships, yeah, but not romance stories. It's always befuddled me even more that people feel compelled to write this sort of stuff about Harry & Draco, who're like, made to write about the journey to the point where they can, y'know, -tolerate- each other-- and instead, what do you have, post-OoTP at least... a glut of stories where they're together almost from the start. Bleh. Heheh this is a good example of fandom (a group of 'like-minded people') and forced identification actually spoiling one for a subject-- since it's largely fandom that's turned me off H/D to the point where not even avoiding fandom helps-- because it used to be what inspired me, too. Ah, well.

It's kind of scary to think I know nothing better than myself (ack, I am that bad, aren't I)... but yes. Although I sound a bit like I'm from a deserted island (the Deserted Island Effect) this way :D Yeah, I always felt it's everyone else who's the crazy freak :D

threading, unthreading, getting frazzled

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Mmmmph. Yes. Again, if I dropped or overlooked an argument, poke me. Softly.


I don't think you denied him identification ... he categorically said he could not get into gay fiction I thought, so we're still at the outset.
Gender orientation only become important when you have more contact with "the others" in what is generally labeled as "real life", I heard *g*

In my experience, complaints about fics being too real only happen in rants against people saying "hey, if a guy is fucking a guy in a chair, their hip-bones cannot touch" and they make me mad. It's not a general, qualitative argument, as it is applied like many others when it suits any given person. What is real to whom to what degree?

OK, I do agree that straight females enjoying to read about gay sex might want something different, in case it was what I had been looking for, but remember that all-too-many fics are just seme-uke, going back to the seemingly eternal power/subjugation formula that I for one tried to liberate myself from, while 90 percent of the slash readers here delight in it (see my previous comment on not being able to join the organised groups of whatwasitagain ;)).

Luckily, rhetorically more competent people have elegantly and in few words already pointed out how you can never ever compare the liberation of watching m/m porn to what men do watching f/f porn, and it would be beyond naive to even start trying to put an "equality" angle on that. Sadly, I never ever have quotes at the ready, nor links or names, but I am sure you know what i mean.
I am not sure if I envy you and the large majority in here who are either bi or lesbian ... I wonder if I would feel empowered, but AAMOF I don't like femme-slash at all, simply because like all f/f porn (also the so called feminist one) follows the same schemata the "normal" ones do. Watching a woman can never have the same effect as watching or reading about m/m without an f in sight.
*tired*

But it's ... natural (or not) to feel even more alienated in groups we should feel part of; at least I find it so much worse. Not sure if you already meant to say this, but if everyone expects to find like-mindedness, disagreement and sharp disappointment are far more likely than if you don't. ... Oh boy, posting boards? *shudder* ... *more shuddering* scary places, watch the spilled acid.

'tis how you are, not what you like ... sadly s.o. I thought my close friend is of exactly the opposite opinion ... and as I read upwards as well as downwards, I am going to repeat what you actually just said up there, but it's 3am and I am woozy)

Ah, and your last paragraph is exactly what I keep telling anyone not lucky enough to escape me, not sure if I said it to you before ... it is the attitude, not the agreeage! I sometimes call it "nice" but then that's because I tend to like those people, but what I mean is that we are not the same, maybe not even that percentage-compatible in my case :S but the intelleekirky-ness/preparedness-to-commonicate-in-a-compatible-way makes up for that.


I think one of us should have split one of those comments up *g*

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

People are stupid. The end. (Yes I'm just sooooo good at communication right now X_x).

HAHA no seriously. Basically that article is the same shit as I get with every fucking comicstore I go into manned by another ugly fat geek with long hair and bad shirts and ask about yaoi/BL titles. And obviously he's going to have an issue with the manga, not because it's BL but because it's, oh, I dunno, aimed at females. It's not "shoujo-esque", it's shoujo, since BL/yaoi/etc come under that form of work.

Sorry, I'm just really not in a good mood.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

Oh, I should have written that! Simple and true.

And those awful yobs then talk to their buddies about used girl's underpants from Japan and their hooker "girlfriends" and not even standing straight and cooly asking for m/m sex changes a thing to what you said.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahah, perhaps we should just arrive at the conclusion that the guy didn't really know what he was talking about ^^;; Which he didn't.
He really pissed me off, but I feel bad about snapping at random people, too, so I try to give them the benefit of the doubt so people don't think I'm -too- crazy (y'know, keeping up appearances, ahahah). And I do know I'm pretty sensitive when it comes to people's oh-so-subtle digs at romance & hints of homophobia oh-so-cleverly disguised. But I got my rant out already :>

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

but I feel bad about snapping at random people

You are a far better person than I. *snark*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I just hide it better >:D