[warning: festering weepy bottom angst ahead]

[reenka]

I think the thing that's holding me up with a lot of fanfic these days is that to me, even fantasy porn is supposed to make sense. And it doesn't make sense on the most basic of levels if the boys act like empty-minded, desperate, weak, hapless little girls who need a big strong hand to pull of them of any little puddle, who're so bloody "delicate", they always need gentle touches and soft words and a nice massage after sex.

All right, let me just state something for the record, which I hope is forgiven for harping on the obvious: Harry Potter is not delicate. He is not helpless. He is not clingy. He is not a fearful cringing sex-kitten in need of some tender lovin'. Please. He is a boy (...and a Gryffindor, at that). Of course he has feelings and insecurities and vulnerabilities and weak moments and such-- we all do. But there's a long, long, impossibly long road from that to, "please save me, Draco, I need your strong manly arms to hold me tight at night, because otherwise I might cry!!" Because that is... being like that is probably his worst nightmare after Voldemort coming to sit on his face.

And what really disturbs me is the social and psychological forces that create the need to have men act this way. On the one hand, I understand girls who write these stories are frustrated with the guys they know; on the other hand, do we really hate men being men that much?!

People call it 'feminization', but that's really an offensive term all by itself, isn't it. But then, what is it? What drives these fanfic writers to turn formerly quite rambunctious, mischievous, fearless boys into whimpering, clingy, helpless-maiden-stereotype sex-kittens? I go on about wanting 'feminist (fan)fiction', but this isn't even about that-- it's dehumanizing! How can readers (and writers!) not realize this?

Is it some revenge drive to emasculate and humiliate those who have some supposed power over us...? That seems a bit far-fetched, but I really can't see how one would -want- men to be like this; maybe I'm just not being a real card-carrying female here.


I mean, I've read romantic & fairy-tale type fantasy since I was little, and I always thought that it was 'bad' when I wanted to laugh and say 'omg, that would so never happen... ever!' So in fanfic, I feel predisposed to similarly dismiss characterizations and scenarios (in my head) regardless of whether their justification would be 'but it's a fantasy', whether for the reader or the writer. I've gotten to the point where I don't even care if it's my -own- kink and -my- fantasy, because I can't shut off my brain quite that much; so these days, even when I write porn myself I try to think of what's believable rather than what I want to happen. That's probably my problem.

Okay, so it's porn; but just because it's porn doesn't mean it has to be bad or rather, indiscriminate in regards to all believability in such basic things as gender (...and personality-type... and common sense probability...). In fantasy stories of any kind, I still feel that something has to hook me... something about it has to convince me to let go and believe. It could be that the writing is just that skillful all on its own, and perhaps the issue I have is that I'm not reading people whose writing is good enough-- or it could be that the situation makes sense to me on a rational level in any way, shape or form.

Basically, I'm saying all this to try and convince myself that fantasy-porn-type writing doesn't have to be the polar opposite of rationality and common sense. And yet when I read fanfic expecting a pleasant diversion, instead I find that it's almost offensive because while aiming purely for my pleasure, it's expecting me to disregard my mind entirely. And yes, it's deeply offensive when characters I like act like brain-damaged girl-children (because real girls, they're not only made of sugar and spice); I'm sorry, is that weird? And then... and then these things are recced and there's no con-crit anywhere in sight and then my reaction disintegrates into wailing and gnashing of teeth, pretty much.

I mean, so many people don't care, obviously, judging from the number of adoring comments-- meaning, I'm just being uptight, right. But I can't not care; perhaps because the characters matter to me, and it matters that I can truly recognize it as these characters when I read gratuitous fluffy smut too. But how can I, when I can't even recognize either of them as a guy? Sure, they have cocks, but how can I feel good about a story when it's like, "oh my god... these two people are mutant females with dicks... but no, because most girls I know aren't this mushy! Because if this was a girl I knew, I'd tell her to snap the hell out of it and get a grip!"

I just... I know I'm going overboard, but the more I think about this phenomenon, the more it makes me rather sick to my stomach and my rationality ebbs away. I should probably start over and try to ponder why in the world society or fandom needs these fantasies, why readers respond so well to them, why the need to mutilate perfectly healthy male psyches is really natural and good.... but I think I'll just stop thinking about this and read some manga instead. Sure, the boys are often over-emotional, ridiculously needy, weepy, clingy and soppy, and don't even get me started on the 'uke' phenomenon, but somehow it seems laughable and easily avoided (or ignored, 'cause hey look, pretty art! shiny!) instead of painful when this is done to characters I -know- aren't like that. Hahaha, this reminds me of all those fanfics with Duo-the-slutty-weepy-cutter-prostitute in Gundam Wing. Those were more funny than upsetting too, but then, I was a lot more frugal in my reading in GW last time around, too, so I avoided most writers I didn't trust completely. Alas.

Comments

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

I don't really have anything constructive to say; it makes me frustrated as well when I see the over-"feminization" of characters. I can't even think of a reason for women to write characters that aren't like this -- unless it's some sort of satire! I'll let you know if I think of anything.

On a completely side note, send me an email! :D Cos tomorrow is March 1st (omg).

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah omg now I really want to write an MST3K of this particular story. Ooooh, it would BURN. Burn, precious, buuuuurnnn...!!1 ...God, I hated it. Oh, how I hated it. WHY DID I READ IT?!? Oh yeah, sick fascination + (BAD OVER-FLUFFY NON-DESCRIPTIVE) porn.... *coughs*

Anyway, sending email, er... now ^.^;;;

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH. Your description of fic never fails to satisfy.


...-doesn't get an email- -kicks Gmail- meep?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

ahhh... I keep forgetting >.<;; (This, among many other things). Le sigh. Got distracted last time. Am better now...?

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

festering weepy bottom

YOU DO REALISE HOW WRONG THIS SOUNDS, RIGHT?!

meaning, I'm just being uptight, right.

No, it just means you're picky and you have taste.

And I pretty much agree with your picky taste. I mean, I read one of Cinnamon's fics, and because of the state of mind I was in at the time I liked it for a little while and was very moved by it, but I always knew when reading it that it was completely OOC for every single character in it (especially MarySue!Pansy), and, in the grand scheme of things, wasn't a particularly good fic. 20/20 hindight and all that.

But yeah. I don't like my ukes to be overly feminised. When they're really sparkly-eyed it just kinda makes it all overly shotaish for me, which I'm not into unless there's animal ears & a tail involved. Slutty is good, however. I can definitely go the slutty-uke. Probably my favourite type. Though the weepy-cutter bit can be left at the door, plzkthnx.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

AHAHA NO I DIDN'T REALIZE. AHAHAH.... Somehow that almost makes it better >.>

Well, Cinnamon is actually not 'bad enough' by far to get me into this kind of tizzy. Oh no. At least she has some skill at weepy boys and melodramatic soap-opera-type plots and "Oh Draco! Don't leave me! I'VE ALWAYS LOVED YOU!!1 *sob*"... no, this is much more horribly evil, BECAUSE IT SUCKED SO BAD. AND SO MANY PEOPLE WERE LIKE, "YEAY YOU'RE A GENIUS". Um. Can you tell I'm scarred now? BECAUSE I AM. RENTBOY!HARRY = PURE EVIL (...I didn't know... *coughs*... now I do).

Rentboy!Duo is alright sometimes >:D :D :D Maybe I just can't help imagining the shiny catsuit and the long glittering hair after this many years reading GW fic. Oh woe, my mind is polluted. *weeps* But it'd be cool if he did it for food when he was like, 14, right, so he was still tough and carried a knife and snarled and was really hot and had a braid... well, I know he ALWAYS has a brain braid but work with me here :))

[notrafficlights.livejournal.com]

OMG. Your icon. *deds* Is it from Koi ga Bokura' (it is, isn't it?)? That manga has some of the craziest facial expressions ever.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

HEEE! YESH IT IIIIISS! :D :D :D I love her style so much <3<3<3<3 When I saw that bit, though, I was like OMG THIS HAS TO BE ICONIZED NOW, OMG!!1 >:O
I just. With every chapter, I love it more. So fucked up. So beautiful. Ohhhhhh, the love <3
I probably like Kenji better than Fujio. Fujio is just a really cute foil. My favorites are Kenji & his girlfriend (WHOM I WANT FOR MY VERY OWN, OMG OMG OMG SHE'S SO EVIL OMG I LOVE).

The only person with equally nutty character expression-love is Taishi Zou<3<3<3<3<3<3

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

Fascinating question, but I won't even guess at an answer because I think the question is necessarily addressed to women, and speculation from the male side is going to be detached and maybe inevitably a bit tongue-in-cheek.

But I do want to propose maybe one spin on the way you've formulated the issue. You've talked about your frustration with certain "feminizing" fantasies in terms of their lack of realism. But I wonder if realism is the true issue. Could it be that you're just sick and tired of the banality of that particular fantasy, and what you want is profounder, hotter fantasy, rather than actual realism?

It's probably possible for a skilled writer to construct a convincing literary analysis of some character's sexuality. But the difference between writing about sex and writing about, say, life on the NASCAR circuit is that the NASCAR writer has an objective set of experiences to write about, to measure the truth of his writing against. Whereas when you're writing about sex, unless you're confining yourself to journalistic descriptions of the act, you sort of have to engage the unlimited way people fantasize, create scenarios, the way they reach out beyond their actual experience and knowledge and visualize something more. I don't think anyone ever escapes the feeling that there's better, wilder sex somewhere around the corner and hmmm, let's imagine what it might be like. (Maybe now I'm exposing my vanilla side. Someone, tie me up!)

What it sounds like to me is that you want to imagine, as concretely as you can, a kind of erotic situation that is more consonant with your vision of "rambunctious, mischievous, fearless boys." And I think that's extremely cool and worth doing. When we were talking yesterday, I made fun of "fightsex" on the grounds of realism, but that might have been unfair of me, because "fightsex" may be a way of groping toward making that fantasy concrete. I guess like any imaginative effort, it takes work and it requires some real-life data, not necessarily to mirror but to do some imaginative work on. If I were a writer, I might try it; since I'm not, I certainly can only respect anyone's efforts to work their way toward that.

Ideally, now, I would cite examples from gay literature as possible models. But gay literature sucks so badly that I've stopped reading it and can't think of any good examples. Maybe some Alan Hollinghurst. David Leavitt is to angsty, Edmund White is too artsy and abstract. Samuel Delaney's autobiography has some grimly, painfully funny scenes that feel right but there's a lot of trauma in it which, come to think of it, is the vice of a lot of classic "gay" literature. Anyway, even those examples shouldn't be confining, they should just be raw material to take off from. Fantasy is good, or at least, it's as good as it is sincere and intelligent.

At least that's how I feel right now. Maybe tomorrow I'll have a different opinion!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oooh! Somehow inadvertently you've stumbled upon one of my quirks of personality (or perhaps you just knew, heheh). Oh yes, what I want is more profound fantasy, since that's what it always comes down to with me-- that is, the desire to be enlightened and transfigured and moved in some real way. But I think I connect 'real' in terms of 'emotionally real' (to me) with 'real' as in, 'how it really is', because to me the mundane isn't necessarily 'really real', if you know what I mean? But yes! What I want is a depth this little false dream is lacking-- because to me there are 'true' dreams and false dreams/fantasies-- and the truth comes from emotional depth and profundity rather than something as surface as pure realism (ie, 'he went to the store to get eggs for 99 cents, and was really bored at the check-out counter').

Heheh it wasn't even the vanilla sex that bothered me so much with that particular story-- which was a rentboy!Harry story, btw-- it was how the situation (Harry the sad, sad rentboy) was dealt with -so- impossibly lightly and melodramatically that I couldn't give -any- credence to any emotions described. Yes, of course there's a large fantasy component with writing about sex, but I figure fantasy works a hell of a lot better when it's grounded in something-- hopefully the characters' traits. In this case, there was -no- reference to the actual (canon) traits of the characters, or their even the more general typology of gendered behavior. There was nothing, so the fantasy just seemed ridiculous (...and really frustrating to me). It's not that I wanted it to be -wilder- or hotter but rather at least vaguely believable in this particular situation (that is, what would rentboy!Harry down in the dumps fucking Draco be like? And why, why, whyyyy is Draco kind and gentle and why doesn't that freak Harry out since that means some pod person's taken over Malfoy??)

But you're right that in general, I want "in character" sex that's in line with my idea of what boys are like, and these particular boys in specific... I don't demand it of every story, of course. I just want the story to make sense according to its own set-up, generally. And if it won't make sense in its own world, what can it offer? And then of course I want it to make sense in a more general context of gender and overall human behavior and so on (which it didn't!).

Yes, it's the sincerity and intelligence I'm looking for and not finding in this kind of 'feminized' and a lot of other types of slash-- what I'm finding is lots of empty dreams of boys that could never exist in worlds that seem created merely for emotional kink and hurt/comfort. It's that very intelligent sincerity I look for in fiction above all else, and which I find so damned rare even as I realize sincerity alone is not in short supply. So perhaps it does all come down to intelligence, as usual. -.-

[black-dog.livejournal.com]

I think I connect 'real' in terms of 'emotionally real' (to me) with 'real' as in, 'how it really is', because to me the mundane isn't necessarily 'really real', if you know what I mean? . . . because to me there are 'true' dreams and false dreams/fantasies-- and the truth comes from emotional depth and profundity rather than something as surface as pure realism . . . I figure fantasy works a hell of a lot better when it's grounded in something-- . . . In this case . . . There was nothing, so the fantasy just seemed ridiculous

I love the way you put this, and I just totally agree with all of it. I mean, I think we're on to one of the fundamental questions in literature and art, in that the artist's job is to somehow take real things and re-imagine them as forms that have their own solidity and integrity and power, that feel absolutely right as freestanding things to contemplate, so the work is a work of imagination, absolutely, not just some mundane recording or transcription. But at the same time it has to be grounded or tethered in reality, in some hard-to-express way, so that it reflects real knowledge, isn't just arbitrary or frivolous or childish. (Are you a fan of Wallace Stevens, by any chance?)

I wish I knew an adequate way of even talking about this balance or connection, beyond "I (sometimes) know it when I see it," :) I think you're absolutely right, though, that it comes down to just the intelligence and power of the writer.

I don't remember if you were part of Magpie's discussion last week on what makes a classic a classic, or distinguishes a work of serious literature from hackwork. And we pivoted in circles around our intuitions there, too, but I think it's the same question, and it's endlessly fun to try to answer.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I think I get so frustrated with stories (no matter if they're fanfic or acclaimed pieces of 'literature') that I think people are just deluded about them. It's odd, I'm more certain about the things I dislike than the things I like, 'cause while it's obvious that my likes are almost totally subjective and dependent on certain priorities and preferences I have in terms of style and subject-matter, my dislikes are almost always based on two things: some stylistic harshness (that is, not that it's written in a style I dislike but that it's written in that style unsubtly or discordantly) and a sense of falseness or unreality. (Like, WTF is this writer thinking? What world are they living on?? AND WHY ARE THEY LIVING THERE??!)

Now, this isn't what makes a 'classic' if by that one means an enduring work with many different readers. I think, for that, quality isn't as important as the possession of certain 'lowest common denominator' characteristics and themes. I think if one tackles popular, hot-button topics in a way that's accessible and dramatic, that captures the imagination by being surprising and yet familiar (thus comforting) at the same time-- that's what makes a work people will return to across the generation, it seems like. Quality in and of itself isn't exactly chased after by most people or necessarily recognized.

However, it does all come down to "I know it when I see it", when I stop justifying myself :D The problem is that things I find to be shallow dreck (even if I enjoy them!) are apparently so emotionally touching and satisfying to many people (say, soap-operas and reality shows as well as bad rentboy!Harry fics). All these readers are touched and moved, and apparently this is how their perceive reality (...though I'm not sure if that's what's going on-- that is, do they really find those fics/shows 'realistic' even on an emotional level-- or would they care?)

So, I mean... no matter how you slice it, people perceive reality differently, right (no duh)-- it's like in SM's latest post about All in the Family, and the wildly different versions people have of the same incident, and of course everyone's totally certain they're right. I mean, a classic or 'true' (even emotionally true) to reality story implies there's such a thing as universal truth. And sometimes I'm quite certain there is, and sometimes I despair, because lo, the stupidity of quite a large portion of humanity obscures everything in a dense fog of ... er, WTF, basically.

On the somewhat bright side, while the transmission of people's emotional ideas of 'truth' in fics doesn't sit well with readers of greater, uh, emotional complexity, the meaning seems to stay true with decreasing levels of readership all right. Which is why I was able to read 'classic' literature of all sorts (Balzac, Maupassant, Dumas, Dickens, etc, but not Wallace Stevens, eheh) when I was about 10-12. Not that I'm dumb, but I don't think I was a stunning wunderkind (sadly). It's just that works of greatness compress their meaning well, it seems. The Bible is probably one of the best examples. Also, some seemingly 'simplistic' works (like children's lit, fables & fairy-tales) are actually already very condensed and usually contain several layers of meaning one could unpack (...this is my favorite kind of lit, btw, eheheh). There's a crucial difference between the low-reading-level literature like Hans Christian Andersen and that rentboy!Harry fic, though (which I keep using as my beat-up doll, but then again IT REALLY SUCKED).

And now I'm rambling too :) :P

[silentauror.livejournal.com]

Amen. Completely my thoughts. And every time I read (the beginning) of another story featuring Harry getting raped by Vernon, I just have to roll my eyes and think about how Harry refused to let Vernon stop him going to the World Cup, never mind get all helpless and defenseless when it comes to some fat bastard raping him. Honestly!

True, it's fanfiction - but it still needs to be worth reading, I say. Lovely summary of the entire deal. Thanks!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahah, yeah, though usually I avoid those fics because they're on ff.net and written by plebes. I haven't seen a 'normal' fic have Vernon-rape. Plenty of normal fics have wimpy!Harry of other types though, masquerading as 'sensitive' and 'deeply hurt' (ahahah...ha). Um. But yeah, I imagine he'd shrivel Vernon's penis with a look by now :))

[pir8fancier.livejournal.com]

I think part of the reason for this is that many writers are both titillated and horrified by slash. By making either Harry or Draco (omg, isn't THAT a travesty) somehow weak, it absolves the character from actually wanting, no, craving an arse up the butt. Plain and simple. This abdication of sexuality absolves both the writer and the character from responsibility of their sexuality. I think this is also a lot of the impetous behind mpreg. I remember when the debate over gay marriage came up in the recent election, and I was shocked to discover that many people who wrote slash did think that gays should have the right to marry. That it was wrong. So you can manipulate them to suit your own fantasies but the reality of two people loving each other and wanting to make a commitment that is legitimate in the eyes of the law is wrong. Mind fuck, in my book.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Isn't the "weak" thing a common part of women's porn in general, though? For instance, when romance novels were younger as a genre it used to be mandatory that the heroine be a virgin and be raped, thus absolving her of actually wanting the sex she enjoy it. There's a lot of sexist issues involved there, obviously, but I think there's also just the common fantasy of wanting to be that undone, so that even if you don't want something you can't resist it. Bram Stoker makes great use of it in Dracula not just with the female characters but the male one. I don't think everything should be written that way, but I can see why somebody would prefer a story where the person isn't just taking responsibility for their sexuality and making a choice about who to sleep with. That's what we should all ideally strive for in our lives, maybe, but I don't think it's what people are always going to look for in porn.

When you get into homosexuality, though, I guess it adds something else to it, like you said. I remember reading that it used to be far more common in slash for writers to constantly make the characters remind us that they WEREN'T GAY they were just attracted to this one guy, which seems pretty homophobic to me.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think in the end, this post was expressing my deep frustration with 'women's porn' in general and all its typical precepts. That's why I was mentioning wanting not even feminist, but at least humanly believable writing even in 'fantasy porn'. Because while yeah, I agree there are all these causes and origins for the types of writing I keep seeing, but at some point, I just don't want to know why as much as I want to change it, because it really needs to change.

And I would separate the fantasy of being undone from more hurt/comfort-like ideas of weakness, because I think it goes beyond gender in terms of being swept away by one's emotions being intrinsic to romance itself. And I think taking responsibility (to me) is more a question of what's believable for the character-- so while I love seeing both Harry and Draco in denial about what they want, it's different than seeing Harry be unable to act, period, because he's so overwhelmed and cowed by the big bad men. There's a fine but crucial difference, it seems, between being directly controlled and sexually 'played' (that is, anything in the range from seduced to raped) and being unable to stand up to other people's behavior and needing someone to make it okay so that it's not even -about- sex but feeling safe and cared for in general.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh definitely two different things. It's weird, because I just can't see Harry in the sort of "I'm so helpless and weep" scenario--I guess that's why some characters seem to get put into that more than others (Mulder, Frodo). Ironically, I'd say both Mulder and Frodo are characters known for "ditching" people and trying to handle things on their own. So for some reason people want to see them crumble.

Now, Harry is another type of "let me handle this myself" but to me he doesn't seem like the type you can even put in those kinds of fics--I guess I'd call them "sick" fics. The fics where the person is delirious and weak and "are you my mommy?" Harry just doesn't do that for me. I can see Draco doing it much more easily than Harry.

But then I have to admit there's probably somebody out there, like that crazy girl on that one group, who thinks that's exactly what Harry's like and she'd probably put him in therapy and he'd be crying in his hands within seconds.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ha, I think the difference between us in this is that I'm much more flustered and thusly wanting to dismiss those people who are on crack disagree with me about Harry on this issue, ahahah. It hadn't occurred to me that these writers could be being perverse on purpose and putting Harry in this sort of ridiculous situation because he doesn't ever act anything like that in canon; so maybe it comes down to writing quality yet again and I have to say that in that case, the fic didn't come close to selling poor-little-lost-lamb!Harry, especially when coupled with sensitive-and-kind-mother-figure!Draco (.......WHY GOD WHYYYYYYYY<-- largely rhetorical, hehe).

Then again, it's actually IC for Draco to be like, 'are you my mommy?', especially if you gave him a little push; not that he doesn't have his dignity, but I think it's hilarious how often fic readers seize upon hardass-and-mean!Draco as being OMG SO IN CHARACTER. Uh. Yeah, he's such a bad boy. Tsk, Draco, you said something nasty about Ron's mum again, that means you're like, VICIOUS, clearly.

If I had to take a shot as to how Harry's different from Mulder or Frodo, I'd say he's not a stoic type (i.e., dedicated to any sort of mission he's working for), per se. He's not controlling himself or being tough for any particular reason, see-- my feeling is that his fearlessness is really recklessness coupled with dissociation much more so than for Frodo (or even Mulder), who's not really fearless or 'brave' so much as dedicated.

Perhaps it's that same old OoTP gap striking yet again :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm, the absolving angle is really interesting. Especially since I was specifically thinking of a rentboy!Harry fic where he had sex with all these people for money because he 'had' to, but his sex with Draco was different-- not animalistic, not rough, full of feeling and gentleness and soft caring touches (which was making me go off on the 'omg girly!!' rant). But perhaps it's that sense of denied or repressed sexuality as well that was disturbing to me.

It's not just slash though, in that case-- girls are taught that sex is 'okay' if it's gentle and meaningful and part of a relationship and not okay if it's enjoyed for the raw messy semi-violence of the act itself (because that's what bad girls do); so yes, that concept of 'taking responsibility' seems to definitely factor into it. As I was saying to sistermagpie below, hurt/comfort is also definitely factor, but absolving oneself of responsibility is then part of the 'comfort'-- so the Big Strong Man (...otherwise known as Draco Malfoy, clearly) takes care of you and makes sure you don't have to think about what you really want and need, because he knows what you need without even having to be told. Bleargh.

Man, so many issues, so little time :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

You know, I don't know whether it's always even feminizing. I asked way back in X-files why we liked to torture our heroes so much--to the point where Mulder was forever weeping, vomiting, shivering or flashing back to traumantic childhood events and regressing. In LOTR it's Frodo who most often gets exactly that treatment. At the time in XF everybody insisted they never "tortured" Mulder, they sometimes had him hurt because of the story and blah blah blah. But the thing is, of course he's tortured--hurt/comfort, man. I started writing hurt/comfort in my head with Batman in Robin when I was, like, 6!

I think a lot of it is the fantasy that somebody falls apart and you get to fix them via this other character--or in my case I think I probably put myself more in the place of the victim who gets to fall apart and get taken care of. But either way, the person has to be a puddle of mush. Some fanfic authors, probably the better ones, write the violence or emotional trauma in a way that's more realistic, but then there's plenty of girls who write pain the way they express it: they cry and wimper, they pile on the violence and abuse because they think more is more. And when you've got the guy crying and wimpering he can be mothered, even if it's by another boy.

Now, the larger question of why women write men that sometimes act more like women in slash, that seems like it's probably something academics have probably been writing about for ages. But I wonder if it's even possible to write a purely "guy" slash fic--or maybe it's better to say do we really want that so badly? I mean, for instance, you recced a story recently that you said was beautiful and it didn't work for me for a couple of reasons, but more specifically for this topic there was a moment in it that cracked me up because it seemed like such a girl thing. So I wonder if the line gets crossed not when the male characters don't act the way a man would write them or the way a boy would act, but when the fantasy gets broken for any particular reader. Different readers are going to have different things that set them off and pull them out of the fantasy. Or something.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, you're right... I forgot all about hurt/comfort (which this particular fic definitely was)... so maybe we're down to quality again. (As in, don't write such sucky h/c fic... or any fic!) I guess I didn't recognize it because it was like... the pain was so prosaic and unbelievable and not set up well-- as in, I wanted Harry to snap out of it. I didn't believe he'd be in pain; I didn't believe he'd handle it this badly, etc. I mean, when you -really- torture a character-- like, I remember reading good fics of this sort in the Highlander & SW:TPM fandoms-- it should involve things which would literally make men cry. And I think those fics came up with some hellish, hellish scenarios to justify our gorgeous heroes cracking. In this case, it was like-- okay, Harry is a rentboy and HE HAS ROUGH SEX. It is not gentle and slow (and, er, romantic??) enough. I mean... I want to laugh. And then I remember that stupid fic where Harry ran away from the Dursleys and became a whore for the summer as just a job and came back to Hogwarts Really Flamboyant which got Draco's attention, and... that was more believable. Y'know?

So yeah, um... I didn't even recognize the pain as pain because it was so ridiculous... but that doesn't mean it's not still that same genre. I didn't think of it as mothering, but now that makes perfect sense, because that's exactly what Draco was doing, and that's what was turning me off big time. (Because Draco and mothering is sort of like oil & water as far as I can tell). And I did realize it was projection, but it just frustrates me that this is what we want from boys-- to be utterly the same as ourselves. Perhaps this is just a question of bad writing always being projection in some way.

Personally, I go for hurt/comfort when I can believe -I- will fall apart under these circumstances too, so there's projection going on on my part as well, and I'm probably tougher than most people. But not as tough as Harry, and to me that's so obvious (that is, you need more to break Harry) that it hurts. I don't want Harry to break in the first place, and if he does break, I don't want Draco to fix him because I empathize with Harry enough to know that he'd hate that with the passion of a billion suns unless he'd fallen in love first, 'cause Harry is definitely the taking-care person and not the taken-care-of person. So there are a lot of issues mixing together with this, I guess.

I dunno if I said it was beautiful, but do you mean the fluffy!hatesex I said made me happy? Because that was purely fodder for me to say 'look, they say I hate you & it all works out' (I was just in a mood). I thought I made it clear I wasn't really saying it was good or realistic, ahahah. But you may be on to something with different things pulling one out of the boy fantasy; I think most, if not -all- fics written in fandom are unrealistic on some level. It's more to do with skill, as I was saying-- either it's writing skill or some basic element of believability, which is what would be different per reader, yes. However... some things are so ridiculous as a concept (i.e., sad, sad rentboy!Harry not being fucked gently enough and pure, noble John!Draco who treats Harry right and doesn't think about his own needs) that... I just don't even know where to start. The worst-written, fluffiest hatesex is more, I dunno, sane (well, IC) than this, no?

[malafede.livejournal.com]

Well, I agree it's not feminization, because thank you, I'm not retarded either.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...every time you say 'retarded', I forget what I was thinking about and imagine Harry sitting in the corner drooling. >.>

[scoradh.livejournal.com]

That struck such a chord. Within the fandom there seems to have developed a new kind of human being - the girl-boy thing. Like you said, a soppy representation of real boys. P'raps it's the Mills and Boon phenomenon of a new generation - unrealistic perfect fantasies where people act like nothing in reality but everything in stereotype-land...urf.

In fantasy stories of any kind, I still feel that something has to hook me... something about it has to convince me to let go and believe. It could be that the writing is just that skillful all on its own, and perhaps the issue I have is that I'm not reading people whose writing is good enough-- or it could be that the situation makes sense to me on a rational level in any way, shape or form.

A skillful writer can do anything, I reckon. Maybe it's just me, because I don't like straight, run-of-the-mill, middle-of-the-road romance - I want something more special, unique even. Hate-love. That rocks.

Ah, so little sense in so many words! *facepalm*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh one of the comments for the story which got me started on this rant said something like "yeay! I love H/D fics where it's like Richard Gere and Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman!" -.- -.- -.-

Imagining Draco as Richard Gere serious makes me want to throw up, and I don't see how anyone could have any other reaction, really. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned these days >:D

I'll take 'makes some vague amount of sense in some universe' over unique and special. Just throw me a bone, fandom. *cringes*

[scoradh.livejournal.com]

*is faint* Gere? Why, god, why? I mean, who's Harry and who's Draco? WHICH IS WORSE? Sweet christ. Just, no.

I'll take 'makes some vague amount of sense in some universe' over unique and special.

Yes, but I am a demanding whore. Hanging out with so many R/S-ers tends to give you a more lateral view, though, as they tend to be more sensible. (Seeing as Oldman and Thewlis do not appeal so much to your average Pretty Woman fangirl). *le sigh*

[firstblush.livejournal.com]

Yes, this has always bothered me too. In fact, this "girl" stereotype (which I agree is somewhat offensive to call feminization) is exactly what I'm not interested in reading (in het or slash). I don't mind some crying when the situation is right, but it has always bothered me in particular when boys cry at the drop of the hat (I suppose I'm stereotypical in that sense of thinking boys shouldn't cry. But it's not so much that they wouldn't want to, but the fact that I think there is a lot more psychological guards for that for boys than girls. Socially it is more "shameful" I guess for a boy to cry than a girl, that when I boy does so freely in fanfic I do find it a bit weird or disorienting). Although then again, I read slash which is not the norm so I don't know why I expect the norm everywhere else.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Crying... crying is a weird subject, since sometimes people use it in a sort of symbolic way-- well, in Japanese manga, anyway, it seems like crying signifies a whole range of emotions from embarrassment to joy to fear-- anytime a bottom (or a girl) gets emotional, there are pretty sparkly teardrops. Or sometimes a realistic-looking torrent with nose dripping and everything. I've gotten desensitized ^^;

But generally I don't think of slash as abnormal any more than I think of gay behavior in general as abnormal.

[firstblush.livejournal.com]

I don't really care for crying in manga. I think tears do represent a lot of things, but to be honest, when I see an uke crying whilst having sex, I usually think he's suffering and not in pure ecstacy. I can't help it. So I find it off putting in a way.

As for slash being not the "norm" - that was bad choice of words. I meant it in the sense of what's a majority, not any reference to what was good or bad or right or wrong or anything like that. More like what was the most common or prevalent.

[firstblush.livejournal.com]

Also in the sense of what's expected or the cliche. Like I don't expect boys to cry, so I find it odd when they do. And I have to admit, in general public, I pull the assumption of people being straight - so in that sense.