~~ to shallow or not to shallow, that is the question.

[reenka]

Eh. The problem with me & meta-fandom recently (okay, today) is that I feel like I can answer any question I ask (of myself) well enough, 'cause I've seen it all discussed already. It's an odd, hollow sort of feeling-- like, I still love the things I loved (okay, I still love H/D porn), but I don't really -hate- the things I hated as much. Like, the need to figure out the confusing and disturbing and odd aspects of fannishness isn't so great when I just -know- 'this is how things are and how they're going to stay, so what'?
    I'm still interested in literary analysis, but I almost never see that going on, really, not even of the weak sort that we have in my English classes (enjoyable as they are, I really don't think they're all that challenging on the undergraduate level at least). And well... er... I want to be challenged as well as entertained. I want someone's viewpoint to surprise me and make me rethink things. I already know I don't know 'the real answer', most likely, but I want to hope that others do.

What it really comes to is this-- is fannishness, by definition, 'shallow'? Because when someone refers to making a 'shallow fannish lj', I just have to wonder. What's so shallow about being a fan?? (Then again, I'm a person that doesn't understand why should -anything- be shallow, even talking about grocery shopping-- surely it can at least be witty & banterish? So, in fact, why do people feel the need to not be entertaining?? Though the real question is, why is everyone Not Like Maya??... me included, of course. Le sigh.)

Does being a fan of some work you admire (given that you admire it in the first place) make you more or less picky & discerning in your tastes?

And if there are two fandoms-- one 'shallow' & one 'scholarly' or 'meta'-- why don't they write porn for the scholarly bit?? Er, that is, porn that a pickier person would still enjoy while remaining picky.

Is it just HP? I mean, I don't read much in Smallville or the DC comics fandom or even Highlander (these days)-- do they have 'smart' porn? I want my smart porn, dammit!

Perhaps it's just that I usually want to ask the silly questions.


Earlier, I read a bad fic, right, and I was really tempted to say, Whyyyyyy do you people like such OOC fics?-- But I know the answer, and that answer is 'kink'. All right. Discussion over. Le sigh. This also applies to Why do you like submissive Harry so very much??, too. And Why do you all like bad, clunky writing so much in conjunction with submissive Harry and OOC behavior?? Kink, kink, kink (with a side of not caring & not noticing). It's the answer to everything that bugs me about fannishness and yet it's the root cause of fannishness. I feel so... disillusioned in meta all of a sudden, because it really seems like quibbling in the face of things that are illogical by definition (ie, our responses to the arts). But it's not 'meta' that's at fault-- it's my desire to apply reason/meta-analysis to something that should be exempt from it-- people's preferences & responses.

It's hard to resist, though-- especially being personally bitter about not getting as much attention (and the constant thought that 'well, why am I not as popular?' because while I'm not great, at least I'm not that). Eh, like I said. This is all the worst stuff about fandom.

Ahh, I remember the 'good old days', when I really almost felt that if I made a good enough argument, maybe I could change someone's mind or something silly like that. Really, I do & don't get people who think they can change people's minds about anything that has to do with preference-- in a way, I almost admire such ambition, but in another way, I'm glad I'm not them, because they must all have horrible ulcers. I mean, in some things, I suppose change -should- come for the betterment of humanity (and boy, do I feel full of myself saying that), but sometimes it's tough to judge things like what's in humanity's best interests. And then, of course, one wonders what, exactly, short of brainwashing, has the power to convince large groups of people to start with.

Going on a tangent, perhaps one can see fannishness itself as a meme-- an example of a mass phenomenon where there has been something of a widespread, rather consistent response (either positive or negative). There's a lot of disagreement within the fandom (the positive response), so it's not uniform, but one could still say that in this case the creator had found the 'secret' to 'convince' large numbers of people of... er... the idea that this is a worthwhile subject to pay attention to, at least. And the more popular something is, the more surprising its existence is, on some level, isn't it? Because out of hundreds & thousands of works created by hundreds and thousands of people-- it's this work that happened to touch this huge, disparate number of individuals. Now that's amazing.


And now for controversy: I've only now started reading `The Magician's Nephew' & I already like it better than Harry Potter. It's funny, really well-written & actually quite touching. Then again, I like lots of books better. I always said I was here for the H/D porn, but really, a lot of that just bothers me 'cause it's OOC (when I'm not so hormonal that I don't care-- which is actually more time than it'd seem if you know me well). And then I said I was here for the people, except 90% are gone. And then I said I was here 'cause I just want to write, except I haven't written much the past month. Le sigh again.

Comments

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

i think you're mixing two things here that as a good popular culture person i cannot let stand :-) i don't think you need "smart" porn to have smart discussions. In fact, sometimes the not so smart porn can offer just as much to analyze. Look at gender roles, for instance. You don't need to write your diss on it to be steeped in culture and have that come out in your writing.

yeah, it can be more fun to detect the symbolism and such, but personally, that's not necessarily the level of analysis i'm interested in.

plus, there's the fact that the fic *is* analysis of a sort, so to figure out how a text chooses to read certain characters is at times stating the obvious.

finally, have you checked out hp_fictalk? not that active, but the analyses that do take place are very good.

I think the problem is that ff *is* often the antithesis of academic analysis. Many of the academics I know enjoy the escape from formalized analysis and the embracing of their escapist tendencies...plus, there is the point that much of ff only works in context, i.e., you might end up doing a better analysis of a particular plot/trope/genre than a singular fic...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean I wanted smart porn for discussion purposes-- more for 'okay, porn that doesn't piss me off would be good' purposes :> I mean, I don't usually want to discuss bad porn so much as rant about it fruitlessly-- since I don't -really- feel better and the porn doesn't -really- get better either. I mean... I would prefer to discuss things from the standpoint of 'this is fascinating' without the element of 'it's also frustrating as hell to read'. Because even -reading- it makes me... twitchy, y'know? Like I want to 'enlighten' the people who like it, by shaking them and yelling (nicely) WHAT CRACK ARE YOU BITCHES ON??! (Except I wouldn't, honest-- not least because I -know- what crack, anyway.)

I don't know what -kind- of analysis I'm looking for-- probably any kind that doesn't depend on analyzing preference (which is so prevalent-- I mean, it seems like more than half the meta discussion I see has something to do with 'the people who don't like what I like are STUPID AND WRONG: discuss').

Which is to say-- I really want to discuss fic I -like- and read fic I like-- and that's getting more and more difficult. As far as canon discussion (which I'm actually less interested in, but seems more 'constructive' since you'd think there'd be less bitching & more diverse commentary)... there too, I feel like it's all been said or at least, most of it in HP fandom keeps degenerating into discussion of preferences. Either that, or a lot of the meta centers around everything that's wrong with the text-- all the ways in which JKR has messed up with the Slytherins is an all-time favorite, for instance. It gets a bit boring to me, if nothing else. I'd love to see more discussion of symbolism 'cause well, no one really does that (though in my Folklore & Fantasy class, we talk about it all the time).

I know what you mean about the merits of discussing the fic even/especially if it's bad/OOC-- but I still can't get past the whole 'but it's torture to read it' thing. Once I get past the bitching stage, I'm just bored with it 'cause it seems like I can see right through it (like, I know why people write bottom!Harry, for instance-- because they want to pamper their favorite, because they think it -is- in character, because they think it's hot, because they think Malfoy, being 'meaner', is more 'manly'... what have you).

In other words, it's hard for me to distance myself from fanfic enough to just see it as being useful for analysis (if anything 'cause I don't read it to analyse it-- I didn't mean to unite those two things). I just meant I wanted porn I could enjoy without shutting off my brain, and I want to analyze things without feeling the need to rant but then I run up against the 'well run dry' thing.

It also seems like-- given that ff is the antithesis of logic/analysis (since people just read it to escape/enjoy), why does it have to be so completely far-fetched as to make me have to work hard to suspend my disbelief for precious little pay-off? If it was at least well-written... but it's not. And yet people eat it up, and thusly I am bitter~:) That's really what it is. The more time I spend reading bad fic, the more bitter I get, which shouldn't have to be true, it seems. I mean, it's not a question of formalized analysis telling me that submissive!Harry is wrong, wrong, wrong-- it's gut feeling. My base conception of the text is being violated with that very concept, so to speak, and it would be all right if I felt the writer was only demonstrating -their- different conception of the text, but I get the feeling like they just don't care about anything but kink.

Ahhh, the travail of being too involved to enjoy the trimmings, probably~:)

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

t seems like more than half the meta discussion I see has something to do with 'the people who don't like what I like are STUPID AND WRONG: discuss'

That's why I don't read much meta anymore. ;) It just pisses me off, dude. I end up ranting at them with cane in hand.

My base conception of the text is being violated with that very concept, so to speak, and it would be all right if I felt the writer was only demonstrating -their- different conception of the text, but I get the feeling like they just don't care about anything but kink.

And that's why I don't read much fanfic anymore. ;) It, also, just pisses me off. ;)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheheh man. You're so... inspiring. Or not :> :>
But I remember how it used to be. Y'know, fun, interesting, etc.
Maybe I do need a new fandom ><
Which is a 'meh' sort of thought. I am zen, though. It's even worse when you realize you just don't care enough to get seriously pissed off anymore ><;;;

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Maybe I do need a new fandom ><

I don't know if you need a new fandom but you might need a fresh area to hang out in, maybe. Or just to lay off the kink fanfic, LOL!

Which is a 'meh' sort of thought. I am zen, though. It's even worse when you realize you just don't care enough to get seriously pissed off anymore ><;;;

I dunno, that might be healthier. I mean, why care about badfic, you know? It'll always be out there, and people will always respond to things that get them off regardless of how silly those things are.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

And that's why I don't read much fanfic anymore. ;) It, also, just pisses me off. ;)

A kindred spirit! That's my philosophy, too. Plus, you got to write write write your own vision in the time you'd waste getting pissed at other people's, so they can be the ones getting pissed reading yours. Now, if only I could get started, I'd be a rockstar.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Plus, you got to write write write your own vision in the time you'd waste getting pissed at other people's, so they can be the ones getting pissed reading yours.

HAHAHA! So true.

If only I weren't such a lazyass. ;)

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

welll...i do think we have very different ways of looking at fanfic, but it might be time to jump fandoms, maybe? b/c i can assure you, there are smart and intelligent and IC things out there...just maybe not any more in H/D...you've read it all :-)

i don't think i have your particular issues...i realize i can tolerate a lot of what people call OOC if the writing is good...i can't take out-of-reality, i.e., they need to act like boys/men, but if you age them up, i can believe quite a bit of variation. in other words, i think saying something is bad/OOC may not mean the same to you as it does to me...

i've actually seen people read/write themselves into a corner where less and less interpretations work for them...that may be one of the dangers of reading a lot?

anyway, i wish i could give some constructive suggestions, but i'm not sure there are...fannish love's fickle and goes through great ups and downs, it seems...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure we really do have such different approaches; I always say I'm a style whore above anything else-- not really a canon whore or what have you. Mostly it's just that I can't stand blatant and willful (if that makes sense) disregard of what I see as 'basic canon', such as... I dunno, facts. Like, I see Harry's lack of submissiveness as fact. My 'grey area' of what I find acceptable is actually quite wide-- it's actually probably a result of the fact that I've really 'read if all' that I'm so very picky.

I mean, when I say 'bad', I don't mean it's equivalent to OOC-- that's why I don't use that term. I also enjoy a fic no matter what if it's really well-written or really In Character-- but generally they're not either, so I'm stuck. So I definitely do tolerate a lot of OOCness if it's worth it, but really, how often is people's porn-writing ability that good? *sigh* I suppose here I should interject that I'm even more of a style bitch than I am about ICness. :> (For instance, I read someone making a bald statement in a fic-- something like, "Harry needed his touch to get away from his despair for a moment"-- and just feel this utter almost moral indignation when I see people cooing over it in the comments-- it's kinda sad.)

The thing that frustrates me is that I'm really not that rigid-- it's not that I can't take a variety of interpretations. It's that I hate reading things that feel slapped together-- which feel like the majority of stuff I come across. Like, that's what I'd tried to say in the post-- that I just feel as if the fics aren't representative of interpretation at all-- only the writer's literary/characterization kinks. If I feel there's any logic (or skill! let's not forget skill!) at work, I'm generally just fine.

I think it's less a question of different approach to fic in general & more a question of limited scope-- this is probably what happens when you just read one predominant pairing for 3 years :> One can't help but develop very strong tastes/preferences/sensitivities. I guess, in the end, it's not like I like the pairing any less-- or the others any more-- so it seems weird to go on to another, I guess...? Also, I'm just continuously amazed at just how weirdly well-received (and how... well... badly written) fics can get.

And yeah, I know there are no answers to my woes~:)) Such is fannishness that it drives me to repeatedly bemoan them, I guess. Or such is my obsession :>

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

OK :-) i really shouldn't go there, but Like, I see Harry's lack of submissiveness as fact. I mean, why does it need to be fact? Why not call it your interpretation and not attach value judgment to readers reading the text differently? (i'm actually genuinely asking, b/c i really wanna know and understand the need to universalize on'e personal reading...)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Actually, that's where I was going to go too.:-)

I mean, to me it seems like it's all both inspiration and character kink. Because probably one could make a case that Harry can be submissive as well--in the re-read of OotP we've just finished the trial and Harry's all, "Why isn't Dumbledore looking at meeeeee?"

I mean, he's also being a little jerk and having mood swings all over the place, but I think somebody might take some aspect of him that is submissive and want to play it up in a fic to explore that. Draco's kind the same thing, really. He's very submissive, but also not. Kind of the opposite. Like Harry is mostly very dominating but he has these pockets of being submissive, and Draco is very submissive but has pockets of rebellion. Then there's the whole idea of wanting to write "what if...?" and all that. We all have things that if they're not there then the characters just "isn't" IC, but some people have different buttons than others.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

For me it's not the fact that Harry's the top or the bottom (I mean, bottom Harry clearly squicks me, but I wouldn't universalise that) it's the portrayal of Harry suddenly acting like a damsel in distress around the big dastardly Malfoy that I would call OOC. It's Harry being needy and depending and clingy to Malfoy. It just seems to clash with everything about their dynamic I read in the text. Of course, I'm aware my perspective will always make my reading subjective no matter how rational I try to be, so I'm not going to condemn any fic where Harry subs it - what is important here is that I personally don't buy it, so the fic is not enjoyable to me. :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

What I'm really missing in a lot of fics is that "as well", though-- that implicit admission that usually this character acts differently, and some sort of real basis for why he suddenly decided to revolutionize his behavior.

I think one could play with-- that is, imagine a character acquiring-- almost any characteristic with any character. The only thing you'd need is a good reason, otherwise you're still left with what I see is "predominant behavior type"-- which is close enough to 'fact' to me.

Like, I've read plenty of fics with bottom!Harry which were just fine & I enjoyed-- but generally they allowed Harry to remain brash, resistant to control/authority (outside some particular sexual act anyway), basically independent/asocial or what have you. I realize he's been reactive/submissive in some ways in the books... though I still don't think it's been to a -person-, and only in respect to circumstances. Like, his relationship with Dumbledore keeps coming to mind because really, that's got to be Harry's only real authority figure besides possibly McGonagall & Sirius in some ways.

Basically, I don't think Sirius (or Cedric) dying is a good enough reason to change anyone's behavior beyond the different signs of depression (which might lead to huge volatile outbursts or apathy but not increased submissiveness, I don't think).

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

depression (which might lead to huge volatile outbursts or apathy but not increased submissiveness, I don't think

Actually not true! As someone who is incredibly assertive, big-mouthed and aggressive but also prone to depression, I can guarantee that it's not true.

With Harry I think the problem is more that his reaction to loss seems to be anger rather than depression, and while depression can bring submissiveness, anger tends not to?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh Yeah I knew that was an iffy-- well, rather sloppy-- statement at best. I would've characterized that tendency to be like, 'fine, whatever you want, sure' as 'apathy' rather than submissiveness, though, so I'm not sure if we both mean the same thing...? ('Cause... I'm rather temperamental/independent/spunky-- heh-- except when I'm depressed, too.)

Like, to me, there's a difference between wanting to submit and just submitting 'cause the will to fight has gone out of you. Did you mean that depression brings with it a greater -desire- to submit, too? Well, perhaps to be taken care of or coddled...?

I myself get really irritable when I'm depressive about things like being coddled-- that is, I'd accept help but not if you shove it in my face and be like, 'hey look, THIS IS AN INTERVENTION'. Then I'd kick your ass no matter how 'sad' I was ^^;; But this is me. Ack, projection issues~:))

But yeah, besides everything else, there's the anger-not-depression thing, though perhaps the depression can be seen as the next step to anger in the stages of dealing....

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

It brings out a greater desire to have everyone else do everything/make decisions for me, because I don't want to think about anything. Like, "I don't want to think about which bills to pay first, or the fact that I have bills, or the fact that money exists, so let me just sit in the corner and watch Buffy and you do all that, mmkay?"

And yeah, depression could be the next step for Harry, although he seems to be sort of stuck in anger? He was like that for a year, after all LOL! And I mean he may have literally been stuck, as in unable to move past that point and take another step toward true healing.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, you're talking about what I meant by apathy-- that whole 'yah, you do it all... fine yeah great whatever, I'll just be over here'. Submissiveness would be more... er...willful, or something. In my understanding of it.

Man, I think this all comes back to the fact that this particular fic was so badly written, it could've been that they were going for apathy, but they totally didn't get there. Instead, I was left with Harry being submissive 'because Sirius died' and I'm still like, WHY??! *sigh* If it was a better fic, I'm sure this'd all be fine.

Well, my suspicion is that in order for JKR to er... get Harry to do stuff (as I'm sure she has plans for him), he'll have to, er, move on with that. :> I wonder how she's going to do it, ahahah. Knowing JKR, she'll probably just start book 6 with him acting different. "Oh, Harry?" Hermione would say. "He changed over the summer" ahahahah.

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

Okay, in that case, yeah, depression != submissiveness. Yeah.

Well, my suspicion is that in order for JKR to er... get Harry to do stuff (as I'm sure she has plans for him), he'll have to, er, move on with that. :> I wonder how she's going to do it, ahahah. Knowing JKR, she'll probably just start book 6 with him acting different. "Oh, Harry?" Hermione would say. "He changed over the summer" ahahahah.

HAHAHAH DUDE I TOTALLY EXPECT THAT. I AM SO SERIOUS.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hahah yeah, if it's fact I should be able to defend it, should I :>

Mind you, I don't associate 'submissiveness' in that sense with sexual behavior at all-- I really don't attach sexual characteristics with any severity to any character that's not explicitly given some (and how often does -that- happen)? So to me, 'not submissive' just means I don't see Harry actually bowing to authority (since he does the opposite, even with Dumbledore except in exceptional instances), allowing people to 'fix it' for him while he does nothing, or looking for comfort & emotional 'fixes' like Cho was rather than being active though accepting advice. I don't really think it's a question of active vs. reactive, either, since I know he can be both, and was mostly reactive, even, throughout the first 4 years-- it's just that submissiveness (as I use the idea, anyway) goes beyond reactiveness into a sort of... willing abjugation of control rather than accepting help or being apathetic.

Can I use what I see of a character's personality as 'factual canon'? It's sort of a grey area, I guess, though like-- isn't Hermione's studiousness 'fact'? Isn't Luna's spaceyness 'fact'? Isn't Sirius' impulsiveness fact? It's in this manner that Harry's rebelliousness/resistance of authority seems 'fact'-- it's just at base of how I perceive he is in canon, and I can't separate it from fact.

I think one -can- set up a fic where you overturn this pattern of behavior, but you'd need to be actively trying to, using the presence of the trait as a starting point. Like, a fic where Snape is a listener (to Harry, say) needs to really justify itself, similarly to the way a fic where Harry looks for sympathy & reassurance from Malfoy of all people, all seems to need justification to appear IC.

However, I only really think of it in those rigid of terms when I'm pissed at a particular fic which has ruffled my feathers :> Usually I'm rather less rigid. When pushed, though, this is just where I draw my boundary of 'canon', y'know? This is my canon. I mean, everyone has a slightly different canon in this way, I think, but that doesn't really help me with thinking I'm right, ahahah. I mean, it's not like it's written in stone-- but it's there as a starting point, which is all 'canon' is anyway :>

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

This is my canon. see, that's all i wanted :D

i think we all should be allowed our canon but by extension not demand anyone else share it...

re "facts"...considering the debates about Hermione's intelligence, for example, i think we can say she studies a lot (though it is filtered through harry's obviously biased perspective), but any conclusion from that (how she is inother aspects of her life in terms of obsessive compulsive behavior, for example, or how intelligent she is) wouldbe interpretations.

and i'd see a wholesale reading of harry as never submissive as such as well...

we all can agree on bad writing, but the rest is very grey indeed :-)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, this whole post was all about -knowing- it's fruitless & even silly to rail against the frustrating things people do to 'my' canon, and knowing that people might argue but they wouldn't -listen- (and why should they?)-- but how it's still so hard to resist. Like I was saying-- asking 'why do you all like this??' is stupid-- but the question hounds me like a banshee. Perhaps it's just that I wouldn't care, except it's badly written, too :> So, y'know, no excuse! :>

Plus, I'm not as insistent about anyone but Harry-- since it -is- Harry's perspective-- but since the books are about him I just get... twitchy :>

So like, no, apparently not -everyone- cares about or notices bad writing, either :>

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

see, but you're still conflating what you dislike with bad. i think we can agree on a wide variety of stories that are simply poorly conceived, told, lack interesting plot, are stylistically poor. and yes, a lot of them perform various versions of canon rape...

but that's not the fic you were talking about, is it? you wanted to know why someone could adore X when you hated it. or am i totally misreading you here? and i'd argue that here you're faced with "your" canon versus "their" canon. look at the shippers...they fight tooth and nail about the canonicity of their ship...

and yes, you're right that harry certainly has a privileged position and we may know more about him than many others...except...he is an unreliable narrator, isn't he???

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I suppose this'd be easier to 'prove' (or at least illustrate) if I had you read the story that sparked me... but suffice it to say, I wouldn't get really upset if I felt it wasn't stylistically poor, not well-conceived, etc. I mean... are you saying it's just that my kink isn't their kink? But I was trying to go beyond kink. I mean, I am aware when I like/dislike a fic based on some personal kink-- usually I know it because I actively don't care about sentence construction, canonicity or even logic. If I do care, I figure it's not a question of kink for me, at least :D

Then again, 'well-written' is also kink. However, it's hard not to call fics 'bad' if they don't seem well-written-- I mean, I've read (well, generally skimmed) fics I thought were really great but 'not my thing' or even offensive to my sensibilities. I wouldn't get so bent out of shape unless I thought, 'it's not just that I don't like it-- it's that good writing hasn't slept here in the last thousand years' :D

That is, I only get really bewildered when it's not just that I dislike something about it-- some aspect of its characterization, say-- it tends to happen when I really do believe the fic has no redeeming qualities except it might appeal to someone's kink, and yet people seem to think it's 'good'. As far as whether I can judge what a 'good' fic is to start with... heh. Well yeah, I do think there are standards beyond just me. :>

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

oh, re the kink fics...yeah, i tend to totally stay away from those...unless they are *my* kink and i read them for that purpose :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, but they don't warn for 'clunky writing' & 'bottom!Harry', much as I wish they would, so certain kinds of kink-fic just tends to slip through the cracks, you know. :)) And then there are times when I think 95% of all fic is kink-fic, which is when I get kinda put off.