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reenkaEh. The problem with me & meta-fandom recently (okay, today) is that I feel like I can answer any question I ask (of myself) well enough, 'cause I've seen it all discussed already. It's an odd, hollow sort of feeling-- like, I still love the things I loved (okay, I still love H/D porn), but I don't really -hate- the things I hated as much. Like, the need to figure out the confusing and disturbing and odd aspects of fannishness isn't so great when I just -know- 'this is how things are and how they're going to stay, so what'?
I'm still interested in literary analysis, but I almost never see that going on, really, not even of the weak sort that we have in my English classes (enjoyable as they are, I really don't think they're all that challenging on the undergraduate level at least). And well... er... I want to be challenged as well as entertained. I want someone's viewpoint to surprise me and make me rethink things. I already know I don't know 'the real answer', most likely, but I want to hope that others do.
What it really comes to is this-- is fannishness, by definition, 'shallow'? Because when someone refers to making a 'shallow fannish lj', I just have to wonder. What's so shallow about being a fan?? (Then again, I'm a person that doesn't understand why should -anything- be shallow, even talking about grocery shopping-- surely it can at least be witty & banterish? So, in fact, why do people feel the need to not be entertaining?? Though the real question is, why is everyone Not Like Maya??... me included, of course. Le sigh.)
Does being a fan of some work you admire (given that you admire it in the first place) make you more or less picky & discerning in your tastes?
And if there are two fandoms-- one 'shallow' & one 'scholarly' or 'meta'-- why don't they write porn for the scholarly bit?? Er, that is, porn that a pickier person would still enjoy while remaining picky.
Is it just HP? I mean, I don't read much in Smallville or the DC comics fandom or even Highlander (these days)-- do they have 'smart' porn? I want my smart porn, dammit!
Perhaps it's just that I usually want to ask the silly questions.
Earlier, I read a bad fic, right, and I was really tempted to say, Whyyyyyy do you people like such OOC fics?-- But I know the answer, and that answer is 'kink'. All right. Discussion over. Le sigh. This also applies to Why do you like submissive Harry so very much??, too. And Why do you all like bad, clunky writing so much in conjunction with submissive Harry and OOC behavior?? Kink, kink, kink (with a side of not caring & not noticing). It's the answer to everything that bugs me about fannishness and yet it's the root cause of fannishness. I feel so... disillusioned in meta all of a sudden, because it really seems like quibbling in the face of things that are illogical by definition (ie, our responses to the arts). But it's not 'meta' that's at fault-- it's my desire to apply reason/meta-analysis to something that should be exempt from it-- people's preferences & responses.
It's hard to resist, though-- especially being personally bitter about not getting as much attention (and the constant thought that 'well, why am I not as popular?' because while I'm not great, at least I'm not that). Eh, like I said. This is all the worst stuff about fandom.
Ahh, I remember the 'good old days', when I really almost felt that if I made a good enough argument, maybe I could change someone's mind or something silly like that. Really, I do & don't get people who think they can change people's minds about anything that has to do with preference-- in a way, I almost admire such ambition, but in another way, I'm glad I'm not them, because they must all have horrible ulcers. I mean, in some things, I suppose change -should- come for the betterment of humanity (and boy, do I feel full of myself saying that), but sometimes it's tough to judge things like what's in humanity's best interests. And then, of course, one wonders what, exactly, short of brainwashing, has the power to convince large groups of people to start with.
Going on a tangent, perhaps one can see fannishness itself as a meme-- an example of a mass phenomenon where there has been something of a widespread, rather consistent response (either positive or negative). There's a lot of disagreement within the fandom (the positive response), so it's not uniform, but one could still say that in this case the creator had found the 'secret' to 'convince' large numbers of people of... er... the idea that this is a worthwhile subject to pay attention to, at least. And the more popular something is, the more surprising its existence is, on some level, isn't it? Because out of hundreds & thousands of works created by hundreds and thousands of people-- it's this work that happened to touch this huge, disparate number of individuals. Now that's amazing.
And now for controversy: I've only now started reading `The Magician's Nephew' & I already like it better than Harry Potter. It's funny, really well-written & actually quite touching. Then again, I like lots of books better. I always said I was here for the H/D porn, but really, a lot of that just bothers me 'cause it's OOC (when I'm not so hormonal that I don't care-- which is actually more time than it'd seem if you know me well). And then I said I was here for the people, except 90% are gone. And then I said I was here 'cause I just want to write, except I haven't written much the past month. Le sigh again.
I'm still interested in literary analysis, but I almost never see that going on, really, not even of the weak sort that we have in my English classes (enjoyable as they are, I really don't think they're all that challenging on the undergraduate level at least). And well... er... I want to be challenged as well as entertained. I want someone's viewpoint to surprise me and make me rethink things. I already know I don't know 'the real answer', most likely, but I want to hope that others do.
What it really comes to is this-- is fannishness, by definition, 'shallow'? Because when someone refers to making a 'shallow fannish lj', I just have to wonder. What's so shallow about being a fan?? (Then again, I'm a person that doesn't understand why should -anything- be shallow, even talking about grocery shopping-- surely it can at least be witty & banterish? So, in fact, why do people feel the need to not be entertaining?? Though the real question is, why is everyone Not Like Maya??... me included, of course. Le sigh.)
Does being a fan of some work you admire (given that you admire it in the first place) make you more or less picky & discerning in your tastes?
And if there are two fandoms-- one 'shallow' & one 'scholarly' or 'meta'-- why don't they write porn for the scholarly bit?? Er, that is, porn that a pickier person would still enjoy while remaining picky.
Is it just HP? I mean, I don't read much in Smallville or the DC comics fandom or even Highlander (these days)-- do they have 'smart' porn? I want my smart porn, dammit!
Perhaps it's just that I usually want to ask the silly questions.
Earlier, I read a bad fic, right, and I was really tempted to say, Whyyyyyy do you people like such OOC fics?-- But I know the answer, and that answer is 'kink'. All right. Discussion over. Le sigh. This also applies to Why do you like submissive Harry so very much??, too. And Why do you all like bad, clunky writing so much in conjunction with submissive Harry and OOC behavior?? Kink, kink, kink (with a side of not caring & not noticing). It's the answer to everything that bugs me about fannishness and yet it's the root cause of fannishness. I feel so... disillusioned in meta all of a sudden, because it really seems like quibbling in the face of things that are illogical by definition (ie, our responses to the arts). But it's not 'meta' that's at fault-- it's my desire to apply reason/meta-analysis to something that should be exempt from it-- people's preferences & responses.
It's hard to resist, though-- especially being personally bitter about not getting as much attention (and the constant thought that 'well, why am I not as popular?' because while I'm not great, at least I'm not that). Eh, like I said. This is all the worst stuff about fandom.
Ahh, I remember the 'good old days', when I really almost felt that if I made a good enough argument, maybe I could change someone's mind or something silly like that. Really, I do & don't get people who think they can change people's minds about anything that has to do with preference-- in a way, I almost admire such ambition, but in another way, I'm glad I'm not them, because they must all have horrible ulcers. I mean, in some things, I suppose change -should- come for the betterment of humanity (and boy, do I feel full of myself saying that), but sometimes it's tough to judge things like what's in humanity's best interests. And then, of course, one wonders what, exactly, short of brainwashing, has the power to convince large groups of people to start with.
Going on a tangent, perhaps one can see fannishness itself as a meme-- an example of a mass phenomenon where there has been something of a widespread, rather consistent response (either positive or negative). There's a lot of disagreement within the fandom (the positive response), so it's not uniform, but one could still say that in this case the creator had found the 'secret' to 'convince' large numbers of people of... er... the idea that this is a worthwhile subject to pay attention to, at least. And the more popular something is, the more surprising its existence is, on some level, isn't it? Because out of hundreds & thousands of works created by hundreds and thousands of people-- it's this work that happened to touch this huge, disparate number of individuals. Now that's amazing.
And now for controversy: I've only now started reading `The Magician's Nephew' & I already like it better than Harry Potter. It's funny, really well-written & actually quite touching. Then again, I like lots of books better. I always said I was here for the H/D porn, but really, a lot of that just bothers me 'cause it's OOC (when I'm not so hormonal that I don't care-- which is actually more time than it'd seem if you know me well). And then I said I was here for the people, except 90% are gone. And then I said I was here 'cause I just want to write, except I haven't written much the past month. Le sigh again.
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no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 10:42 am (UTC)i think we all should be allowed our canon but by extension not demand anyone else share it...
re "facts"...considering the debates about Hermione's intelligence, for example, i think we can say she studies a lot (though it is filtered through harry's obviously biased perspective), but any conclusion from that (how she is inother aspects of her life in terms of obsessive compulsive behavior, for example, or how intelligent she is) wouldbe interpretations.
and i'd see a wholesale reading of harry as never submissive as such as well...
we all can agree on bad writing, but the rest is very grey indeed :-)
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 10:57 am (UTC)Plus, I'm not as insistent about anyone but Harry-- since it -is- Harry's perspective-- but since the books are about him I just get... twitchy :>
So like, no, apparently not -everyone- cares about or notices bad writing, either :>
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 11:03 am (UTC)but that's not the fic you were talking about, is it? you wanted to know why someone could adore X when you hated it. or am i totally misreading you here? and i'd argue that here you're faced with "your" canon versus "their" canon. look at the shippers...they fight tooth and nail about the canonicity of their ship...
and yes, you're right that harry certainly has a privileged position and we may know more about him than many others...except...he is an unreliable narrator, isn't he???
no subject
Date: 2004-11-09 11:45 am (UTC)Then again, 'well-written' is also kink. However, it's hard not to call fics 'bad' if they don't seem well-written-- I mean, I've read (well, generally skimmed) fics I thought were really great but 'not my thing' or even offensive to my sensibilities. I wouldn't get so bent out of shape unless I thought, 'it's not just that I don't like it-- it's that good writing hasn't slept here in the last thousand years' :D
That is, I only get really bewildered when it's not just that I dislike something about it-- some aspect of its characterization, say-- it tends to happen when I really do believe the fic has no redeeming qualities except it might appeal to someone's kink, and yet people seem to think it's 'good'. As far as whether I can judge what a 'good' fic is to start with... heh. Well yeah, I do think there are standards beyond just me. :>