~~ to shallow or not to shallow, that is the question.

[reenka]

Eh. The problem with me & meta-fandom recently (okay, today) is that I feel like I can answer any question I ask (of myself) well enough, 'cause I've seen it all discussed already. It's an odd, hollow sort of feeling-- like, I still love the things I loved (okay, I still love H/D porn), but I don't really -hate- the things I hated as much. Like, the need to figure out the confusing and disturbing and odd aspects of fannishness isn't so great when I just -know- 'this is how things are and how they're going to stay, so what'?
    I'm still interested in literary analysis, but I almost never see that going on, really, not even of the weak sort that we have in my English classes (enjoyable as they are, I really don't think they're all that challenging on the undergraduate level at least). And well... er... I want to be challenged as well as entertained. I want someone's viewpoint to surprise me and make me rethink things. I already know I don't know 'the real answer', most likely, but I want to hope that others do.

What it really comes to is this-- is fannishness, by definition, 'shallow'? Because when someone refers to making a 'shallow fannish lj', I just have to wonder. What's so shallow about being a fan?? (Then again, I'm a person that doesn't understand why should -anything- be shallow, even talking about grocery shopping-- surely it can at least be witty & banterish? So, in fact, why do people feel the need to not be entertaining?? Though the real question is, why is everyone Not Like Maya??... me included, of course. Le sigh.)

Does being a fan of some work you admire (given that you admire it in the first place) make you more or less picky & discerning in your tastes?

And if there are two fandoms-- one 'shallow' & one 'scholarly' or 'meta'-- why don't they write porn for the scholarly bit?? Er, that is, porn that a pickier person would still enjoy while remaining picky.

Is it just HP? I mean, I don't read much in Smallville or the DC comics fandom or even Highlander (these days)-- do they have 'smart' porn? I want my smart porn, dammit!

Perhaps it's just that I usually want to ask the silly questions.


Earlier, I read a bad fic, right, and I was really tempted to say, Whyyyyyy do you people like such OOC fics?-- But I know the answer, and that answer is 'kink'. All right. Discussion over. Le sigh. This also applies to Why do you like submissive Harry so very much??, too. And Why do you all like bad, clunky writing so much in conjunction with submissive Harry and OOC behavior?? Kink, kink, kink (with a side of not caring & not noticing). It's the answer to everything that bugs me about fannishness and yet it's the root cause of fannishness. I feel so... disillusioned in meta all of a sudden, because it really seems like quibbling in the face of things that are illogical by definition (ie, our responses to the arts). But it's not 'meta' that's at fault-- it's my desire to apply reason/meta-analysis to something that should be exempt from it-- people's preferences & responses.

It's hard to resist, though-- especially being personally bitter about not getting as much attention (and the constant thought that 'well, why am I not as popular?' because while I'm not great, at least I'm not that). Eh, like I said. This is all the worst stuff about fandom.

Ahh, I remember the 'good old days', when I really almost felt that if I made a good enough argument, maybe I could change someone's mind or something silly like that. Really, I do & don't get people who think they can change people's minds about anything that has to do with preference-- in a way, I almost admire such ambition, but in another way, I'm glad I'm not them, because they must all have horrible ulcers. I mean, in some things, I suppose change -should- come for the betterment of humanity (and boy, do I feel full of myself saying that), but sometimes it's tough to judge things like what's in humanity's best interests. And then, of course, one wonders what, exactly, short of brainwashing, has the power to convince large groups of people to start with.

Going on a tangent, perhaps one can see fannishness itself as a meme-- an example of a mass phenomenon where there has been something of a widespread, rather consistent response (either positive or negative). There's a lot of disagreement within the fandom (the positive response), so it's not uniform, but one could still say that in this case the creator had found the 'secret' to 'convince' large numbers of people of... er... the idea that this is a worthwhile subject to pay attention to, at least. And the more popular something is, the more surprising its existence is, on some level, isn't it? Because out of hundreds & thousands of works created by hundreds and thousands of people-- it's this work that happened to touch this huge, disparate number of individuals. Now that's amazing.


And now for controversy: I've only now started reading `The Magician's Nephew' & I already like it better than Harry Potter. It's funny, really well-written & actually quite touching. Then again, I like lots of books better. I always said I was here for the H/D porn, but really, a lot of that just bothers me 'cause it's OOC (when I'm not so hormonal that I don't care-- which is actually more time than it'd seem if you know me well). And then I said I was here for the people, except 90% are gone. And then I said I was here 'cause I just want to write, except I haven't written much the past month. Le sigh again.

Comments

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

i think you're mixing two things here that as a good popular culture person i cannot let stand :-) i don't think you need "smart" porn to have smart discussions. In fact, sometimes the not so smart porn can offer just as much to analyze. Look at gender roles, for instance. You don't need to write your diss on it to be steeped in culture and have that come out in your writing.

yeah, it can be more fun to detect the symbolism and such, but personally, that's not necessarily the level of analysis i'm interested in.

plus, there's the fact that the fic *is* analysis of a sort, so to figure out how a text chooses to read certain characters is at times stating the obvious.

finally, have you checked out hp_fictalk? not that active, but the analyses that do take place are very good.

I think the problem is that ff *is* often the antithesis of academic analysis. Many of the academics I know enjoy the escape from formalized analysis and the embracing of their escapist tendencies...plus, there is the point that much of ff only works in context, i.e., you might end up doing a better analysis of a particular plot/trope/genre than a singular fic...

[shatterglass.livejournal.com]

-gets totally off topic with you- I love the Chronicles of Narnia, and have loved them for most of my life. I've actually seen a little bit of writing done in that fandom, but mostly I'm happy with canon. Have you read any of the others, or are you starting with TMN (as all good readers should)?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*grins* I'd much rather talk about Narnia anyway, but am still in the middle of book 1 & feel I have little of 'substance' or interest to say :D :D Ahahah and I'm going to write a Narnia fic for class, can you believe it?? I really feel excited about it :D :D :D Even though it has all this Christian stuff (like, oh, I dunno, GOD HIMSELF) in it, I don't care! I'm not usually like this, but CS Lewis just gets past my atheist-militant defenses :))

And yeah, I just started :D I didn't really want to stop reading, but felt the need to stop & wail about my bad porn angst~:) Usually, the more I like a book, the less I feel the need to add to canon, but this seems fun to play with so far-- like... and not too intimidating like the Sandman is :D It wouldn't even occur to me to be in -fandom- for it, but then it wouldn't occur to me to be in fandom for 'most anything. HP is such a freak occurrence :>

EHEHEH HUMANITY AS THE SECOND JOKE. I AM STILL DEAD OVER THAT :D :D

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Edmund Penvensie is my boy I love him he is my little English Judas he is the best!!

Ahem. Just had to mention that.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean I wanted smart porn for discussion purposes-- more for 'okay, porn that doesn't piss me off would be good' purposes :> I mean, I don't usually want to discuss bad porn so much as rant about it fruitlessly-- since I don't -really- feel better and the porn doesn't -really- get better either. I mean... I would prefer to discuss things from the standpoint of 'this is fascinating' without the element of 'it's also frustrating as hell to read'. Because even -reading- it makes me... twitchy, y'know? Like I want to 'enlighten' the people who like it, by shaking them and yelling (nicely) WHAT CRACK ARE YOU BITCHES ON??! (Except I wouldn't, honest-- not least because I -know- what crack, anyway.)

I don't know what -kind- of analysis I'm looking for-- probably any kind that doesn't depend on analyzing preference (which is so prevalent-- I mean, it seems like more than half the meta discussion I see has something to do with 'the people who don't like what I like are STUPID AND WRONG: discuss').

Which is to say-- I really want to discuss fic I -like- and read fic I like-- and that's getting more and more difficult. As far as canon discussion (which I'm actually less interested in, but seems more 'constructive' since you'd think there'd be less bitching & more diverse commentary)... there too, I feel like it's all been said or at least, most of it in HP fandom keeps degenerating into discussion of preferences. Either that, or a lot of the meta centers around everything that's wrong with the text-- all the ways in which JKR has messed up with the Slytherins is an all-time favorite, for instance. It gets a bit boring to me, if nothing else. I'd love to see more discussion of symbolism 'cause well, no one really does that (though in my Folklore & Fantasy class, we talk about it all the time).

I know what you mean about the merits of discussing the fic even/especially if it's bad/OOC-- but I still can't get past the whole 'but it's torture to read it' thing. Once I get past the bitching stage, I'm just bored with it 'cause it seems like I can see right through it (like, I know why people write bottom!Harry, for instance-- because they want to pamper their favorite, because they think it -is- in character, because they think it's hot, because they think Malfoy, being 'meaner', is more 'manly'... what have you).

In other words, it's hard for me to distance myself from fanfic enough to just see it as being useful for analysis (if anything 'cause I don't read it to analyse it-- I didn't mean to unite those two things). I just meant I wanted porn I could enjoy without shutting off my brain, and I want to analyze things without feeling the need to rant but then I run up against the 'well run dry' thing.

It also seems like-- given that ff is the antithesis of logic/analysis (since people just read it to escape/enjoy), why does it have to be so completely far-fetched as to make me have to work hard to suspend my disbelief for precious little pay-off? If it was at least well-written... but it's not. And yet people eat it up, and thusly I am bitter~:) That's really what it is. The more time I spend reading bad fic, the more bitter I get, which shouldn't have to be true, it seems. I mean, it's not a question of formalized analysis telling me that submissive!Harry is wrong, wrong, wrong-- it's gut feeling. My base conception of the text is being violated with that very concept, so to speak, and it would be all right if I felt the writer was only demonstrating -their- different conception of the text, but I get the feeling like they just don't care about anything but kink.

Ahhh, the travail of being too involved to enjoy the trimmings, probably~:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I keep waiting to meet him, as I've heard so much about him :D :D

I'm literally like, HOW LONG TILL I MEET EDMUND?? :>

[blacksatinrose.livejournal.com]

t seems like more than half the meta discussion I see has something to do with 'the people who don't like what I like are STUPID AND WRONG: discuss'

That's why I don't read much meta anymore. ;) It just pisses me off, dude. I end up ranting at them with cane in hand.

My base conception of the text is being violated with that very concept, so to speak, and it would be all right if I felt the writer was only demonstrating -their- different conception of the text, but I get the feeling like they just don't care about anything but kink.

And that's why I don't read much fanfic anymore. ;) It, also, just pisses me off. ;)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Serves you right, not starting with The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe!

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

welll...i do think we have very different ways of looking at fanfic, but it might be time to jump fandoms, maybe? b/c i can assure you, there are smart and intelligent and IC things out there...just maybe not any more in H/D...you've read it all :-)

i don't think i have your particular issues...i realize i can tolerate a lot of what people call OOC if the writing is good...i can't take out-of-reality, i.e., they need to act like boys/men, but if you age them up, i can believe quite a bit of variation. in other words, i think saying something is bad/OOC may not mean the same to you as it does to me...

i've actually seen people read/write themselves into a corner where less and less interpretations work for them...that may be one of the dangers of reading a lot?

anyway, i wish i could give some constructive suggestions, but i'm not sure there are...fannish love's fickle and goes through great ups and downs, it seems...

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

oh, re the kink fics...yeah, i tend to totally stay away from those...unless they are *my* kink and i read them for that purpose :D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, but I enjoyed `The Magician's Apprentice', dude. And it says 'volume 1' on it, don'tcha know :))
...A part of me is worried, though. I remember adoring the first volume of Pullman's trilogy & then... y'know... then came the third book ^^;;

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheheh man. You're so... inspiring. Or not :> :>
But I remember how it used to be. Y'know, fun, interesting, etc.
Maybe I do need a new fandom ><
Which is a 'meh' sort of thought. I am zen, though. It's even worse when you realize you just don't care enough to get seriously pissed off anymore ><;;;

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure we really do have such different approaches; I always say I'm a style whore above anything else-- not really a canon whore or what have you. Mostly it's just that I can't stand blatant and willful (if that makes sense) disregard of what I see as 'basic canon', such as... I dunno, facts. Like, I see Harry's lack of submissiveness as fact. My 'grey area' of what I find acceptable is actually quite wide-- it's actually probably a result of the fact that I've really 'read if all' that I'm so very picky.

I mean, when I say 'bad', I don't mean it's equivalent to OOC-- that's why I don't use that term. I also enjoy a fic no matter what if it's really well-written or really In Character-- but generally they're not either, so I'm stuck. So I definitely do tolerate a lot of OOCness if it's worth it, but really, how often is people's porn-writing ability that good? *sigh* I suppose here I should interject that I'm even more of a style bitch than I am about ICness. :> (For instance, I read someone making a bald statement in a fic-- something like, "Harry needed his touch to get away from his despair for a moment"-- and just feel this utter almost moral indignation when I see people cooing over it in the comments-- it's kinda sad.)

The thing that frustrates me is that I'm really not that rigid-- it's not that I can't take a variety of interpretations. It's that I hate reading things that feel slapped together-- which feel like the majority of stuff I come across. Like, that's what I'd tried to say in the post-- that I just feel as if the fics aren't representative of interpretation at all-- only the writer's literary/characterization kinks. If I feel there's any logic (or skill! let's not forget skill!) at work, I'm generally just fine.

I think it's less a question of different approach to fic in general & more a question of limited scope-- this is probably what happens when you just read one predominant pairing for 3 years :> One can't help but develop very strong tastes/preferences/sensitivities. I guess, in the end, it's not like I like the pairing any less-- or the others any more-- so it seems weird to go on to another, I guess...? Also, I'm just continuously amazed at just how weirdly well-received (and how... well... badly written) fics can get.

And yeah, I know there are no answers to my woes~:)) Such is fannishness that it drives me to repeatedly bemoan them, I guess. Or such is my obsession :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Man, but they don't warn for 'clunky writing' & 'bottom!Harry', much as I wish they would, so certain kinds of kink-fic just tends to slip through the cracks, you know. :)) And then there are times when I think 95% of all fic is kink-fic, which is when I get kinda put off.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

You should write more fics. >:)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Probably. Though honestly, reading the next Narnia sounds more fun :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

You should read the next Narnia, then.

*sends luv*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

awww <3

:>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hee :> they are so cute :> and draco says 'go away' an awful lot :)) random, but cute... in an odd pissy way :D
i don't need cheering up or anything, if that's what you think...? but i do like it :>

Re: :>

[malafede.livejournal.com]

I wrote curtain instead of curfew. :D :D I love my engrish. Probably won't ever evolve in anything, but. I send love because I can.

[sympathetic-ink.livejournal.com]

Completely OT, Reena... but do you want a Christmas Card?

[looks evil]

Re: heh

[malafede.livejournal.com]

The sudden cold flush wasn't fear, Harry knew. It was excitement.

MAN, I FEEL YOU.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

er...sure. is it an evil christmas card? :D

Re: heh

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*is encouraged* :> :>

brats rule

[malafede.livejournal.com]