~~ wherein Reena rails against Slytherin. again.

[reenka]

That's it, I've snapped (...again). I... I have to come up with actual -reasons- now for why I don't think that the way to rebel against a fictional school's House system is to decide the "ambitious, cunning" house is All That. So okay, I'll say it.

(I think) Slytherin House sucks. Or, let me rephrase that. It does not, under any circumstance, deserve admiration, except on a per-individual basis. Same could be said for almost -any- group.

...Gryffindor & Hufflepuff & Ravenclaw aren't much better. But Slytherin sucks worst, because-- well-- playing nicely with others isn't my idea of a Chief Virtue or anything (I hardly do), but. Making some sort of ideal out of being manipulative? That's just lame.


Maybe it's just... all right, I'll just say it... I don't think ambition or cunning are admirable qualities. That's... that's just all there is to it. I can never -admire- Slytherinness -because- it's so "Slytherin". I mean... being underhanded and manipulative and self-centered (one for one and all for one) or whatever-- what's so cool about that? That's your basic Scrooge mentality, man, like the way Victorian factory owners were supposed to think, employing homeless little boys to work 20-hour days in their clothing factories or whatever, no?

I'm oh-so-tired of people feeling sympathy for the underdog to the extent that they let their contrary nature overwhelm their sense of... I dunno... goodness. Just because "0" isn't quite right, doesn't mean "1" is the answer, does it? Binary systems. They annoy me :>

It's like the way so many people assume they must support the Democrats if they hate what the Republicans are doing. Jeez. The way people assume if I'm not one way, I'm the other all the time, in so many different ways, when they're all bad choices, when everything's corrupt. Every human group-- let's face it, it's corrupt. It gets to me, that's all. People not -thinking- about things in theory, only choosing to support the opposite from the option that annoys them, instead of reforming the option most deserving of support. Bleh!

Do all the go-go-Slytherin people seriously think that's the "best" idea for a House, somehow? Do people seriously think Houses in general are a good idea? Do they seriously think these ideals they stand for mean -anything- without the others?! Isn't it obvious they're all supposed to work in concert? Why god, WHY do people always choose sides?! WHY? (Okay I know why, but it's still frustrating.)

I mean... just because people think Harry is wrong in his behavior towards Draco or whatever (and he is, but he's understandable) doesn't mean Draco is a w00bie, does it? Just because a character is understandable or likable doesn't mean he's not a bastard, does it?

So, I mean. I love Draco, for instance, and not even -in spite- of the whole Slytherin issue-- I think it's a part of him, obviously, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. Necessarily. Just like Harry's a Gryffindor/Slytherin mix, and that's neither a good or a bad thing, necessarily, though the Slytherin ideals/virtues require much more fortitude and caution to use well. Gryffindor & Slytherin are different sides of the same coin, as Harry himself demonstrates, doesn't he? Isn't that part of the whole -point- of Harry's characterization, and thus, by extension, the HP books in general? So how can there be this rift in fan alliance between the two Houses?

I can't stand it when people are all woo-woo-Slytherin. It makes me all... disturbed and creeped out, because if people seriously think ambition and ruthless cunning are the main qualities to strive for in life, they've got... issues. Of course, by extension, I suppose all of the American (and Japanese) capitalist system is built around those things to a large extent, so. No surprise, eh? Every man for himself, all that. Great. Must we applaud it?? Must we? DUDE! *stews*

I also hate it when people take the opposite view and are blindly pro-Gryffindor, 'cause I mean... who the hell cares about bravery and righteousness? Where's the understanding and mercy here? How could we trust any school-age child to know what "justice" is? What the hell? Are we seriously supposed to believe that everyone in Gryffindor either knows what bravery is or cares about these ideals? (Of course not, it's just what they want to see themselves as the most.) Or that all the clear idiots in Slytherin would even know cunning if it bit them on the ass?

...On the other hand, okay, maybe the fans (and some of the actual Slytherins) choose to cast their lot with that House 'cause they don't feel "good". (Though, how silly is it to associate oneself with fictional Houses, anyway?) Like, it's a low self-esteem problem that turns into "We're Here and We're Weird"... you know... except not. I love the idea of Slytherin House as having self-esteem issues while Gryffindors are the cocky ones and the Hufflepuffs are the shy/meek ones and the Ravenclaws are the stand-offish ones. Ha!

Feel my Hufflepuff rage, man. Feel it :D
~~

I think this is slightly related to all the people who love Spike (I was gonna say 'like Spike', but... no) because he's "evil" (aka the Big Bad). Also, y'know, the people who like Draco 'cause he's... well... Slytherin. I love Spike, too, but it's because he's Spike-- a set of contradictions and evasions and er... moods. Not because he's messed up and violent. I mean... just because I love someone doesn't mean it has to be because of their moral/ethical system, does it? And just because I love a pairing doesn't have to be because they represent an ethical stance in my head, does it? Ok, good.

I tend to want goodness (happiness) to come from dark painful things. It's unrealistic but I'm obsessed. I want Spike to be happy and fulfilled. I don't care how boring that is-- I don't care how unlikely it is-- I don't care who does or doesn't believe it with me. I think -everyone- should try to be the most complete, fulfilled self they can be, because otherwise they won't enjoy life as much as they can. Everyone can be happy, in theory, with who they are.

This is also related to me not grokking the whole "character torture" thing where people like to emotionally hurt their favorite characters. Maybe I just think of them as -real- too much. And. And, I take things too seriously. Yes~:)
~~


1. Go into your LJ's archives.
2. Find your 23rd post (or closest to).
3. Find the fifth sentence (or closest to).
4. Post the text of the sentence in your blog along with these instructions.

i'm all buzzy and wired now.

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

you really are upset - i never noticed any typos in your posts before.

btw, this is what i meant in a previous discussion, how every liking has to be accompanied by disliking another character. which i can´t stand.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ehehe... typos? Where, where? *runs it through spell-check again* I can't seeeee...! But yes, er. I dunno, for some reason the pro-Slytherin thing just steps on my toes :>

Then again, the pro-Draco-means-anti-Ron or whatever thing steps on my toes also. Makes me feel all hemmed in and stuff. *tries to hide fanatic gleam in eye* :>

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

did you maybe repost it already? i can go and look, i just noticed because you are always so neat.

exactly. and as i said, without being a fangirl of any of them, the pro-snape = anti-sirius and vice versa just makes me gloomy. i finally read "iyap" (part of the reason) and while there is a balance, i can see its offspring everywhere, and am heartily sick of it. i am such a bad anti non-fangirl-or-whatever *sigh*

*sees fanatic gleam* hemmed in? try coughing, and then tell me what you are up to.


excuse me for repeating myself - maybe it was in another lj anyway - but i think only canon manages a balance. that´s why book 3 (and 5 for snapists) were so satisfying, seeing it all from a different pov all of a sudden, with new ideas, from both sides of both sides.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, no, I didn't do anything to the post, I just can't find any typos. *paranoid*

Yes, see... well... anti-Ron people really frustrate me 'cause I love Ron and he's, you know, the prototypical Gryffindor and while he's snappish and often utterly -wrong-, his heart's in the right place and he's really a hero, y'know, maybe even moreso than Harry. He's so straightforward, so self-sacrificing, so.... *weeps*

Weasley is my King :D Ahem.

And so, by extension, I appreciate the Gryffindor virtues he kinda represents, y'know? He's a genuinely good guy, though feckless and quick to judge, not very thoughtful (WHY HE NEEDS HERMIONE!!)... um. He has his ambitions, of course, his dreams for himself, but he's the sort of person who puts his friends first when it counts, and is -there- for the people that need him and is just... a w00bie. *biased*

Though admittedly, I don't love Neville and a lot of people are anti-Neville-pro-Draco, y'know. It's just that I don't -hate- Neville. He's just boring~:)

Oh yes, I loved book 5 'cause everyone got to be bad :D I love seeing these paper castles get destroyed-- I think one is stronger for it. No one is really perfect in the real world, of course, and... really, it's what's your heart that counts. I think. Though we all make mistakes, etc~:)

[subtle-knife.livejournal.com]

I'm sorry to bother you, but I just have to express my total love for your icon, it's so beautiful. :)

[mhari.livejournal.com]

I can't stand it when people are all woo-woo-Slytherin. It makes me all... disturbed and creeped out, because if people seriously think ambition and ruthless cunning are the main qualities to strive for in life, they've got... issues.

YES.

Rah, hello, I don't think they're as uniformly scummy as they come off in the books, but still! I mean, it is possible to be a good person and be terrifically devious. But you know, if you don't like JKR using Slytherin as shorthand for "EVOL", and I can see why you wouldn't, because that's stupid-- the answer is not to turn around and use it as shorthand for "goth and badass", because that's also stupid and you don't even have the excuse of making it up in the first place. :P

*waves token Ravenclaw flag* Personally I think it's better even to be an obsessive intellectual than a selfish, manipulative asshole, but that's just me ;)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah I dunno since when are goths supposed to be cunning, either, ahahahahah. Like, why is "evil" associated with "cool-looking and smooth and romantically sensitive", anyway? It's wacky! Maybe it's like, if you're selfish and manipulative, you must have Hidden Pain and a Difficult Life, ahahahahahah.

Also, of course, people self-project their poor self-image or whatever, but that's just sad. So they don't feel popular thus they don't feel Gryffindor.
Maybe Slytherin gets all the kids with the bad self-esteem, I dunno, ahahah. It would be funny~:)

[mhari.livejournal.com]

Maybe Slytherin gets all the kids with the bad self-esteem, I dunno, ahahah.

*giggles*

Though that doesn't explain Neville, then...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Dude, you're forgetting Neville's sekrit Inner Fortitude and Hidden Strength, here :D He Endures Unspeakable Trials and comes through when it's truly needed. Or something. I dunno, I think he doesn't -think- and wonder whether he can do something or not (though I'm sure lots of people have told him he can't do this-and-that-and-the-other-thing)-- it's like, he takes it for granted, he doesn't brood on it. (Neville doesn't seem broody). So when he has to shine or whatever, he can... er... surprise even himself. Or especially himself. I think Neville knows Neville least of all.

OMG I CANNOT BELIEVE I AM SITTING HERE TALKING ABOUT NEVILLE >:O
heh :>

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

*waves Ravenclaw flag with you*

I don't even get where the idea of Slytherins being weird and goth comes from anyway. None of them are weird in that way. I mean, they're weird like Draco is weird, but Draco's not intentionally weird.

The way they're presented they're supposed to be sort of the rich elite only in an alternate universe where that means nothing and nobody wants to be friends with them. Anyway, so Pansy goes around with a group of girls and talks about people's looks and she giggles and she holds Draco's arm when they go to the ball and wears floaty pink ruffles that are probably expensive. And Draco has shiny blond hair and wears a uniform and goes to the ball in the equivalent of a designer suit only it's for a 14-year-old so he doesn't look like James Bond. And they all probably grew up playing the Muggle equivalent of tennis at Country Clubs and went sailing and took ballroom dancing lessons.

Let's make this clear: If they went to your school, they wouldn't be the goths. They wouldn't be the misfits. They'd be the kids driving the nice cars, living in big houses and wearing very expensive clothes.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*cracks up* Omg, I'm having this really wrong vision of an AU story where Draco's all into gangsta rap and likes to, y'know, live it up with the "other side" Saturday nights, y'know, and he meets Harry who's like... I dunno... collecting Dudley for the Dursleys at some kinda wacked-out club hang-out (where they play pool, ahahah).

And Pansy's like, trying to hit on Harry the whole time, and Draoc's all disgusted and like, she won't leave Harry along so Draco gets all resentful and Harry hates Draco anyway, 'cause who does he think he is? So Draco finds excuses to go out his way (since they're in different schools) to come and taunt him, while Pansy tries (unsuccesfully) to offer to sort of "sympathy" and she says Harry should sleep with her 'cause Draco will beat him up whether he does or not :D

And he's like, "BUT I DON'T WANT YOU!!"
And she'd be like, "Oh, don't be -silly-, Potter, of course you do," and she'd smile that wide lip-sticky smile.
And Harry would yell, "WELL, I CAN'T, ALL RIGHT, I CAN'T BECAUSE I'M BLOODY QUEER!!!1"

...And of course Draco would hear and......


... :D

[candytaiyo.livejournal.com]

If you write that, I may just have to give you my soul. Or whatever else you want for it. That is just brilliant.

o.0

[lestrange.livejournal.com]

LIEK OMG WRITE THAT PLZ!!!111!!!!!!!!!!!!!



No, seriously, that would make such a cool AU. :D

[mhari.livejournal.com]

I don't even get where the idea of Slytherins being weird and goth comes from anyway.

I expect it's watered down through the average 13-year-old brain: Evil --> Dark --> Goth --> Misunderstood Poetic Tortured Soul!!!1

Which is the same kind of logic that says a broken nail is a character flaw, so.

Let's make this clear: If they went to your school, they wouldn't be the goths. They wouldn't be the misfits. They'd be the kids driving the nice cars, living in big houses and wearing very expensive clothes.

Heh. Maybe that's the appeal.

[slinkhard.livejournal.com]

*waves Slyther-claw flag! Is there no room for the indecisive?!* ;)

Except the problem with the way they're presented means they would be the rich popular kids; as long as they weren't more rich and popular than the 'Real' stars.
Because Harry's a rich jock. Hermione seems to be middle-class, Ron working-class; but they're both prefects, Ron a jock; all three being *extremely* popular.
So there's a huge inconsistency with the Slytherin's image.
They're the bullies; but they always lose, rarely attack physically, are unpopular with three quarters of the school and all but one teachers (as far as we know).

I think: "Let's make this clear: If they went to your school, they wouldn't be the goths. They wouldn't be the misfits. They'd be the kids driving the nice cars, living in big houses and wearing very expensive clothes"; could actually apply to the Gryffindors excellently.

(Magpie...did we just...disagree?! *brain explodes*)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

no fucking fair.
you went and added spike.
i wanted him to be happy so badly, it hurt.
but i did not like him because of his coat. and i hated him in "all the pretty girls" and the like (ff novel).

and i am pissy coz no fair that adding *huffs off to bed*

ps: it´s the hair. otherwise they would not say it.

pps: although draco is to harry as spike is to buffy.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*meeps* Well... heheh... Spike is prolly cooler/more developed than Draco. There was more canon attention on him, so it's hard to entirely equate them. But yeah, Buffy & Harry have remarkably similar issues, man~:) Maybe it's a hero thing.

And omg, Xander is Teh Ron! hee :D
I always wanted Buffy with Spike partly because -Spike- wanted it so much and I think they -can- be good for each other, and if I didn't think so, I wouldn't ship them. Drusilla is -not- Good For Spike, therefore the people who ship them are being bad to my ickle Spike and I must RAGE :D

[http://users.livejournal.com/_inbetween_/]

exactly.

exactly! i so wanted them for each other, because they were the first couple where i really thought "you are equals". no other couple was. i am interested in slash for what i used to think was equality (not in hp *sigh*). and spuffy meant so much too me that i never discussed it on any board, because, as you said, he wanted her and i wanted him to be happy, and i also started liking her when she came back from the dead, and i thought he could be good for her. and dru sure was not good for him. rage on.

ps: i agreed with marty in the end, that she did not let them get together at a time when they would have been bad for each other, because their relationship became much closer and deeper later on. and i wanted to slap bronzers for saying "they are both so thin, if they had kids you could not see them when they stood sideways", ggrrrrrr, because even physically i loved them (much better then big fat angel and tiny girly. uhm. i just wrote spangelus and make spike think angel should lose white ;P).

[t-winkle725.livejournal.com]

Feel my Hufflepuff rage, man. :D

But seriously, without Hufflepuff there wouldn't *be* a fandom, just a big messy flamewar between wannabe Ravenclaws, Gryffindors and Slytherins...no-one would bother with cut-tags or disclaimers or Warnings and we would all get shut down and sued in no time at all...in other words, I get sick of the Woooooo! Slytherin! thing sometimes, too...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah. We are the glue of it all. *revels in sekrit powah*

...*hypocrite* :D :D

[malafede.livejournal.com]

You know, for a moment there I got really wibbly that your rage was directed at me because I'm always parading my Slytherin love. (Yeah, I know it's complete unfounded paranoia because you pratically don't know me, but, uhm, I've got issues.) Then I remembered that I love Slytherin for reasons that are diametrically opposed to the ones you describe here. I am an Hufflepuff, I LOVE Hufflepuff and I want Hufflepuff to become more popular cos it'd made the world a nicer place. Uh. Yeah.

I think all in all I am an Hufflepuff who wants to reform and save and appreciate the Slytherins. I don't know. My House ship is definitely Hufflepuff/Slytherin, with Hufflepuff as the dom. (!!!)

Although I really disagree with this:

Maybe it's just... all right, I'll just say it... I don't think ambition or cunning are admirable qualities.

I think you're sort of pathologizing them, only seeing the extreme BAD manifestations of them. A good politician will have to be cunning, for example, not to climb the social ladder but to achieve world peace. Like The Prince. You don't like Macchiavelli, do you? Also I unlike 99,9999999% of the fandom don't think bravery is All That, but I don't even think is bad or despicable. :)

I also disagree on the Spike! I never cared for him to be good or evil, I just wanted him to retain his outsider status (which he completely lost when he was redeemed cos apparently difference can't be integrated.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

You're right, of course, I don't like Macchiavelli on principle from what I know, but I haven't read the book. I dislike politicians-- aaaall politicians. I dislike subtrefuge even though I spent my whole childhood lying my ass off all the time, but it was never to -get- things, you know, just for fun and never profit. I hate the idea of lying for profit, heh.

Anyway, deviousness & cunning can be "useful" (ahahah), yes, but as I said at one point in the post, they have to be better controlled; more wisely, anyway. I didn't say it should be like, -destoryed- off the face of humanity, just that it wasn't a great central ideal to strive for in my eyes. Sure, it can be used well, but. It's still creepy and easily corruptible. That's what I mean. It's v. v. v. (very very) often corrupted. Also. I HATE POLITICIANS!!1 >:O

My House ship is Gryffindor/Slytherin because I'm more about equality and two passionate spirits beating each other up sometimes (ahahah). I don't like dom/sub relationships or inequal balances 'cause I'm all about independence and freedom and FUCK THE MAN, so you know, I can't be for literally -fucking- the man ^^; Sometimes this gets extreme and I hate being born female because by default this means I get things -done to- me. I don't want to be on the other end, really, I just want there not to be this issue. I too, have issues, clearly :D

I want to reform the Slytherins too, though I'm not obsessed with it like some. Heh. Not just you~:) There are a number of people. Um. I don't care about anyone but Draco (and Harry) anyway-- they can all go to hell (except Ron, I would be sad-- and Sirius, but what's done is done-- note, these are the people Harry loves best, heh).

I never cared if Spike was "good" or whatever, I just wanted him to be fulfilled, outsider or not. I'm all about the happy, as you might be gathering ;) Well... more like... people being true to themselves.

I don't think bravery is All That, but I like heroes & anti-heroes and rogues and tricksters and... I like them all~:) Mmmm, archetypes. Yum.

[malafede.livejournal.com]

The dom thing was a joke. *g* I left a comment to your subsequent post to address the D/s issues so I’m just going to say that I see where you come from, with both the not wanting boys to do stuff to you and hating politicians. Well, the boys thing, I’m completely different, but I also feel this longing for androgyny and universality beyond gender in the individual… I just don’t think it applies to power-dynamics. Power-dynamics are a psychological issue in my mind, whereas androgyny is an ideological and political issue. But I see your point. :)

Politicians… eh! I totally relate with what you say about power and being corrupted by it. I also think most politicians are corrupted because say, their cunning isn’t used to serve the people but rather their personal agendas. I’m philosophically an anarchic, I reject power as an means to govern, it’s just that, as you say, it’s not very viable in reality. Though I’ve got to say I feel equalling all politicians with corruption and greed is a bit of a prejudice. I want to believe that the enlightened politician (or Prince) can exist.

Your thing with Harry is so cute. *bonds*

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

Honestly I don't know how anyone can say that they are a fan of "Slytherin." Or, conversely, be an anti-fan of Slytherin.

You're a fan/anti-fan of, what, exactly, a bunch of kids we've only seen as a peripheral blur on Harry's vision? I'm not buying that. We know next to nothing about Slytherins of any variety. Trying to be pro or anti something you know nothing about is pointless.

I think a lot of us who are "Pro-Slytherin" are therefore Pro Getting some fucking New Information About Slytherin--so that we can finally have enough info to decide whether we should be pro or anti Slytherin. Since we have so little information, there's nothing from keeping the vast majority of Slytherin fans from taking the house at more than face value, for postulating that that's where all the cool kids live, whatever.

And I'm not saying they're wrong or right to feel that way; I'm just saying, if you want to complain about it, don't blame the people from the fandom you're purportedly avoiding--blame J.K. Rowling.

(though how are you avoiding fandom? you interact with fandom and post on lj and talk about fandom all the time. :P goose.)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*eyebrow twitch* Ohhhh!! I haven't thought of that. It never occurred to me to "blame" JKR 'cause... I kinda accept she's doing what she wants, or whatever, and I think she really think of Slytherins as... icky. At least from interviews and little bits of what she says, I think it's like... a bit like a cartoon-world in her head, that way.

Mostly... I -do- see people be all "yeay Slytherin!!", I really do. Or like... identifying with it and... fixating on it. I forgot what my inspiration was, but there's definitely a fandom pro-Slytherin movement, man. Even JKR noticed, y'know, like when she popped into Mugglenet and people's "spiritual homes" were Slytherin. There's definitely an obsession going on, heh, and you're right! We don't know enough about it, but that's not stopping a lot of people :>

If I think about it rationally, clearly I need more input, but I wasn't being rational, just annoyed 'cause House partisanship always makes me annoyed. Since we know little else, I assume being ambitious and cunning is what they're so rah-rah about, or whatever. Oh, and... well... I don't like, -follow- fandom, really, 'cause I don't read my flist. Like... I only talk to whoever talks to me :> That's kinda avoidant, isn't it?~:)

Sometimes, I think, I just take things as "vibes" that I can't break down too easily ^^;