(no subject)

[reenka]

The thing that really bothers me is how everything comes down to the lowest common denominator when it's a group activity, when it's appreciated -by- groups or -in- groups. Like... even porn can be... visceral, intense, meaningful... not just about getting off. Or at least, one gets off, but it's not... tawdry, it's not -stupid- until it's a mass event, it seems like. The popular stuff, the stuff that gets the biggest feedback numbers... it's not that it's bad. It's just that it's... made bad by the way it's trampled on, maybe. Suddenly, it's all about the superficial pleasure in it. Does it make you feel good? You can bet it'll be popular if it's not already. Is it easy to swallow and quick to please? Oh, it'll be a hit.


I sound like such a grinch. I mean, I love a lot of the same things everyone else does, so what's that stick doing up my ass, etc. *sigh* I love this, but being a part of it kind of makes me partly sad and partly embarrassed even as I enjoy it.

There's a conflict in me, I think. I've always been a hedonist, someone who enjoyed pleasure for the sake of pleasure, and I've always been obsessive about it... but possibly I just take it too seriously. It means something to me, when it's about characters I care about. I can't just... dip in without a whole lot of emotional baggage anymore. Sometimes it feels like I've got -too much- at stake emotionally, by now, to really enjoy H/D stuff on some sort of balanced, "normal" level, I dunno. I know I take it too seriously. Like, it hurts my feelings if I think people are "using" images of them without really... caring about them, without knowing what they're really saying.

I was thinking, earlier, that maybe it's just that whole old-fandom-geezer thing setting in, where you can't take in new stuff very easily. Maybe I -have- become "jaded", except I'm -more- sensitive, not less. I've always been "porn for the masses!!1" so it's hypocritical to be all "but H/D is -speshul-" about it.

I'm not sure what to do. I still love coming across new things (even though I don't look actively, these days), but I've gotten so over-sensitive. I dunno. It's gotten to the point where they're so real to me, porn of them feels almost invasive. Isn't that insane? It is, isn't it. But it's not the sex, it's the attitude towards it. I feel like... the characters are more important than the acts, and I'm actually offended if they're used as kink-objects by people. I'm like... embarrassed for their sake, if I see people just... ogle them like sex-objects or whatever. I mean, I realize I have a problem, here, I really do.

It is at this point that people would say "I really need (another) hobby", which is why I've avoided H/D fandom, partly, while still loving to write and having the old thrill with fanfic/fanart (when I do see it). It's not (just) fun anymore, I guess, and. So most likely I'm not really coming all the way back, am I.

Comments

[trolleys.livejournal.com]

Ahaha, you linked my pic! *HIDES*

Heh, you know, several times you've used my artwork as examples of H/D stuff that irked you, which made me all :(( and "wahh why is she picking on me out of all the fanartists!!!11one" At the same time, I appreciate that you force me to analyze my own art and keep me on my toes, so to say. Making me aware of my fanon trangressions and all that. ;) Anyhoo, onto your point... When it comes down to it, I want H/D to retain its grit and complexity and everything else I love about the pairing, but reading one type of H/D for too long, no matter how good, would be suffocating. I love that one can seek fannish stuff that will visually or emotionally satisfy on an more immediate level (smut, AU, smut... smut) while still being devoted to their... roots, I guess? For example, I'm currently on a major smut kick and am lapping up nearly everything at pornish_pixies, but soon enough I'll be craving the sprawling plot-driven H/D. Variety is the spice, blah blah, et al. I see the pr0n as a fun, natural part of the kooky fandom experience rather than something invasive or degrading as long as I keep in mind the context in which it is presented and all that jive.

Just to throw in - What I admire about you, Reena, is that while your train of thought is... often difficult to catch in one take, you may love H/D in a way most fen (including me) do not. It's so rooted in them and not just an idea of them. I find your protectiveness rather comforting, even if I don't agree with everything you say. And yes, you do contradict yourself a lot - but it's on a totally conscious level, not mean-spiritedly hypocritical or anything, and I contradict myself all the time in my mind, except I rarely post my H/D thoughts out of fear of chasing my own tail. :>

[trolleys.livejournal.com]

Oh dear, I just received your comment on my pr0n! Had no idea. I need to hit the sack right now, but I shall reply tomorrow because liekwoah you wrote a novel. :D

[lestrange.livejournal.com]

Go here (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=lestrange&keyword=HP&filter=all). Latest fics at bottom. Read those. Will make you feel better.

[sarahtales.livejournal.com]

Ah, the bliss of being sternly oblivious to everything one does not like in fandom, and indeed living in a pink fluffy wonderland.
Muah. Come live there with me.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh Maya, I'd come live -anywhere- with you, should you wish it (and possibly if you just let me, heheh), don't you know that?

<3!

I think I'm being oversensitive (more than usual), with all the school-related stress and it's easier to be like, "feh, fandom" rather than "feh, LIFE ITSELF", hahah.
you know, i think you can make fandom pink just by existing in it >:D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

waaahhh, I didn't mean to pick on youuuuu. It's not really... I mean, it's only a coincidence that it's you. It was an afterthought to link that, basically to give anyone any clue what sort of thing I was talking about. I was complaining about the fannish attitude in general, which bothers me in all fandoms, just in general, and also I was being touchy and stressed. I think the whole second time thing is a bit of a coincidence, though it's also because I actually seek out your journal even though I don't follow anyone at the moment, 'cause I don't have a tradition of commenting on your pics so I don't feel obligated so I can "just look", y'know? Yeah -.-

Anyway, I wasn't trying to be anti-porn or pro-meaningful-plotty-fic, y'know? I was more... saying that there's -always- meaning, for me. It's not something I can turn off, when it's H/D. It can never be just about the pretty pubic hair or whatever, to me. I feel a bit embarrassed, just seeing them as bodies, 'cause they're so... real to me. It's like, without emotion, it's a bit like checking out your best friends' bits without remembering it's your best friend. Checking out the bits is fine, I do it myself, but I usually remember the difference. Or something. It's an obscure and overly picky point :>

I wasn't attempting to like, police you or the fandom at large by any stretch of the imagination, though, y'know. That'd be rather ogre-ish of me. I get satisfied on an immediate level all the time-- 'cause, duuuude, I'm all for porn, H/D pr0n most especially-- I read it, write it, -crave- it. It's more... just the way I relate to it, rather than -what- it is that I'm relating to. Porn is 100% gr8, and your art in particular, but... I get uptight about the whole lowest-common-denominator thing, which isn't the same as porn, it's more the... thoughtlessness, the bodyfic/body-fanart phenomenon. Where they're just -bodies-, not people/characters. Just kink-objects.

Eh, I'm prolly not explaining very well, but then, this wasn't trying to be a thoughtful post, y'know. I was gonna delete it, I just had to take a bus home first ^^;

Anyway... yeah.
I'm glad you're okay with it, though, at least somewhat :> *coughs* :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heheh. Thanks. Though... uh... fic-to-feel-better-with is not exactly in short supply. Hell, Mr Backlog, ahahaha. Haven't even read "Invisible To See" yet :>
Am on Gundam Wing kick. Kind of sad, but ^^;;

[lestrange.livejournal.com]

GW.

Oh, dear. I was sucked in it once, for like a day, because this one person wrote really good slash. God, that was even earlier than HP. My intro into slash was from GW. And I was a Renowa(sp?)/Hero shipper. No, I don't know what happened, either.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

You mean Trowa/Heero, I'm guessing :D
Um. I don't -hate- that pairing, let's just put it that way~:) Mostly, I have little interest (as in, none) in any character and/or pairing that isn't Heero/Duo, 'cause... I'm so opposites-attract-obsessed it's not even funny, apparently. Also Trowa doesn't grab me 'cause he doesn't have Heero's obsessive madness thing going on. Gotta love the psychotic ones. Not that they're not all somewhat insane, but Trowa & Quatre... well, they just go together. And. Stuff.

GW was my first "real" fandom, ages ago, which is to say... two years or so. Which is why this latest relapse is sad. I thought that was all over, heh. I guess relapses... happen. My intro to slash was... uh... it was GW, wasn't it? Actually, that was my "real" intro, but my very first taste was Fruits Basket slash :D heeeeeeee. I wish people wrote more of that. Though... there's not a lot of room for different genres/sorts of stories and/or ecchiness, I guess ^^;;

The key, I think, is that I love the GW boys, but not... er... too much, maybe :>

[lestrange.livejournal.com]

Ahahahahaha, no, I really meant Renowa/Heero. I started out with het, y'know. That's how it always goes.

And then I deviate.

I remember too little of the GW boys to be able to tell them apart by name, so (un)fortunately, cannot pick OTP fights with you. Heh.

Ah, Fruits Basket. I didn't get the whole Yuki/Kyou thing when I was going through FFnet, y'know. After falling for HP, though, and really discovering slash, i.e., becoming a 'slasher', I finally understood the magic of Y/K. Ahahahahahah, it's HD, man, anime-fied.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Um, do you mean -Relena-, in that case? 'Cause as little as I know GW canon, I'm pretty sure there's no (girl) Renowa ^^; ahahah. Whereas there -is- Heero/Relena, WHICH I HATE, ahahaha. *coughs* Well, not -hate-... just... I liked it when I watched Endless Waltz (the movie), since I never see slash, usually, in canon... (I think we're similar in that we just see what's there until it's suggested otherwise, maybe). But... the more I found out about Relena, the more I thought it was just ridiculous to think Heero/Relena was... er... all that. Then again, I'm so biased towards (mutual) passion... not that Heero can be said to have actual "passion" towards anybody, so the whole thing's moot. I just don't like Relena. It's the pink, and the outfits (ugh) and the character design (UGH) and the "I'm a princess of light" thing, which I only like in Tohru.

Which, by the way, is embarrassing, 'cause I -still- ship Kyou/Tohru way over Kyou/Yuki, though I like both pairings and possibly Kyou/Tohru/Yuki as well :>
Did we talk about this before? I think so XD

[lestrange.livejournal.com]

Relena, yes, it's it. I'm sobad with names. Ahahha, yeah, she's like the Lana of SV.

I'm so biased towards (mutual) passion

Strange, but I thought what R/H lacked was passion. I mean, you can tell that they clearly like each other, but the emotion's very underplayed. I had to fill in the gaps by myself, and, um, give them the intensity from my imagination. I guess what I loved about them was they're potential, and what writers hinted at, but didn't make blatant. It almost seems like it's their intention to make you feel desperate enough to fill in the emotional gap by yourself. But that's just me.


*g* Yes, yes, we did. Circles are nice, don'tyouthink? lol.

Gah, near three, hello bed.

[addictedkitten.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think you're just insane.

*pats you*

:-D

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

man....

what would i do without you to support me in my insecurities :D :D


*big hugs* :D

[addictedkitten.livejournal.com]

You know I'm here for you babe.

<33333

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

hee! i can never doubt you.


except maybe when you're really scary ^^

<3!

[trolleys.livejournal.com]

:-*

Of course I'm okay with it! I love reading everything you have to say about H/D... You put so many layers into your posts that it sometimes takes me several rereads to get the gist. And obviously, I pretty much missed the point here. *Shame face* Cuz you're so smart, man, and I'm kind of in awe and I'm always afraid to comment in your journal :p and I didn't mean to sound whiny about you commenting on my art; it was a harmless jab at a pattern I noticed in your journal, s'all. <3

Oh btw - this'll probably be my last post as 'duckpuppy'... in case you missed my personal drama, I had to jump ship and change my name to greeksong. You can defriend duckpuppy and add the new one if you want. I'll be friending you anyhow, hope you don't mind. ;)

~DP

[altricial.livejournal.com]

You've avoided the H/D fandom?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heheh, hi!!! omg :D so unexpected :D!
yet happy! :D :D!

um.
yep. i haven't read anyone's journals since last year, man. and by that i mean -anyone's-, so yeah, i've avoided -all- fandom and well, everyone else (online) besides. that includes h/d fandom~:)

clearly i still talk about h/d and post on my own journal, but i mean... that's not really fandom, since it's basically my own little world. *sigh*
i haven't read any HP fic, really, besides what's posted on veelainc, and that's just one h/d fic (that i remember actually reading) for the last... what is it now... 4 months.

so maybe i didn't -mean- to, but that's what wound up happening. at first i was just "lalala i'm taking a break" and now it's like "um....."

so yes. sad but true, i guess ^^;

and. hi!!! :D! (again.)

[altricial.livejournal.com]

Gotcha! I hear you, sometimes when you take a break from something, you forget why you even wanted to be there to begin with :))

And hello!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

*giggles* so what brings you to this neck of the woods?
and also, have any new vids lately? hee
yeah, i've been swallowed by the consumerist culture, i guess~:)

[altricial.livejournal.com]

I was just reading friendsfriends :))

Erin recced one of my vids recently, the Debbie/Brian one, did you see that?

Consumerist culture ownz me.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

ahhh! new vid! although.....
by debbie/brian, do you mean...? *coughs*
although i'll still see it when i get home, since it's yours and all, but. heeee. my mind sort of rebels.
and no, 'cause i've not been reading my flist, so i don't know pretty much anything. i'm like out... in space. every time i touch down, something new annoys me and i fly away again.

i mostly meant that as soon as i saw that your journal was gone, i was like, DAMN! HOW WILL I GET WIND OF HER VIDS -NOW-??!
hee.
and also, everyone's even more fascinating when they're unavailable, which is just like the law of supply & demand, i guess ^^;

[altricial.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Debbie/Brian :)) Don't judge me, I'm not well =; :))

I haven't been reading LJ much at all as well, I so get what you mean by seeing something new that annoys and having to escape again.

I've got all my vids/fics up at www.popbiscuits.org so no one is missing out on anything :))

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heee! Well, they're (I) am missing out on your surpremely amusing & fascinating self, though~:) I mean, you do know that you're one of the like, maybe 7-10 journals I've ever seen that are actually entertaining to read, right? Most people are so... dull. That's really it. Dull. Or wanky. Or dull -and- wanky. *coughs*

Wheee, I'm bad-mouthing vague groups of unspecified people! *is wanky and dull*

I think het!Brian is like, the obvious subversive step. Sort of like gay!Ron :D :D

[bookshop.livejournal.com]

question, because i'm coming late to the party--

when you say you love Rothik's pic but that 'being a part of 'it' makes you embarrassed'--what exactly is the "it" that you're talking about?

I had had the original version of that particular picture saved to my hd weeks before the revised version was posted to pornish_pixies--and since I find nothing remotely attractive in the idea of ron watching harry and draco fuck, I quite willingly treat them as two different pictures, the first version of which I absolutely love, the second version of which I have no interest in, even though I think Rothik is extremely talented and I appreciate everything she draws.

I separate them because the first version makes me happy; the second version does not. So when you discuss being embarrassed by "it" I wonder if you're referring to the H/D-ness of the picture, which is what you proceed to talk about, or the voyeurism of it, which you don't touch on.

And honestly, who cares if the level you enjoy it at is "balanced" or not by other people's perspectives? If you enjoy it, you enjoy it, full stop. There's nothing overly hedonistic in that, not unless you're becoming completely socially inept as a result of spending all your time obsessing over H/D pornfic, which I don't think you are.

I am cynical of the idea that anyone should be embarrassed or conflicted about the fact that they enjoy their kink, especially when their kink is just the general one, the pairing in and of itself. It's just not computing to me because it's not something I personally would ever be ashamed of or bothered by.

[altricial.livejournal.com]

Aww you're too sweet :)) I'm dull and wanky these days too because the world is sucking out my will to live :))

Brian/Debbie is incest! It's still hot, I think. :))

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, um. heh. As usual, I don't think I'd explained myself very well. Why do I keep doing that? *siiiigh* I think it's just that I have unexplained references a lot, I guess? meep. I mean, people say that I'm intimidating or confusingly complex in my writing, and I always think that I'm just not getting some basic aspect of communication or something, like where people know how to say things so that they match what they mean. Like, in fic, it's okay 'cause the reader is supposed to get whatever they want out of a story, even if it's nothing like what was intended... but like... in nonfiction, it's such a bother. Er. Anyway, that was totally not what you were talking about :>

The "embarrassment" I was talking about is something I feel anytime I see mass emotional displays or squeeing or just... er... public kow-towing and such. Like, "OMG YOU ARE MAKING ME CUM BUCKETS!! YOU ARE A GENIUS!!! OMG YOU ROCK MY UNIVERSE, AAAAAAAHHH THAT IS SO HOT I WANT TO FUCK THEM BOTH RIGHT NOW!!!! >:O"
That. Embarrasses me :> Seeing page after page of it makes me feel like, "okay, I will never look at Harry or Draco sexually ever again. Poor woobies."
Mostly 'cause like... the objectifying being so body-oriented... all... I dunno, Mary-Suish maybe, inserting yourself and your lust into the picture so blatantly? I've never been comfortable with that, being a part of that. I could never be, "OMG I WANT DRACOS COCK!!! OMG LOOK AT HARRY TAKE IT!!! YEAH!!!" Y'know? I mean. Eurgh.

It's not any particular kink I'm not comfortable with, it's the public orgy-ness and the objectification. I mean, okay, writing porn about them... I guess I can be seen as objectifying them... but I'm not -trying- to, honest!! Even if/when I get off on writing/reading them, I'm identifying & losing myself in the emotional situation, I'm discarding my ego, y'know? I'm very uncomfortable with... using them as sex-objects without really... I dunno, connecting that to their personalities. Just... kinda thinking of it as a hot show, or whatever. Does that make sense? I'm totally okay with erotica, sensuality, with pornifying children's books, whatever-- but when it's pure base lust, I have issues. Then again... it's such a personal emotional thing to me-- lust, I mean. All intense and vivid. It really embarrasses me to have it be just... casual ogling & drooling. I dunno.

But it's not about what they're doing or how-- it's just that I care about them and I'm not entirely comfortable with seeing them sexually from the outside. I mean... it's okay from the inside, when I'm in their heads, but... "outside", they're just... two boys I care about. Er. In a platonic way ^^; I dunno. The whole... public bacchanilia aspect of fangirlism always freaked me out. I'm just a shy person, I think :>

It's like... to me, the fans' reaction to the drawings is part of the experience, part of the "fandom" experience. It's more intense for me than Ron's voyeurism, somehow. Like... Ron is part of a story, which is confined to that one picture. The fangirling is widespread and encompasses not just this pic but a whole attitude which embarrasses me. There's something weirdly private about H/D sex to me... or like, not private, but between the two of -them-. It's -theirs- not -mine- (or Ron's for that matter). But like... it's more Ron's than it is -everyone's-. I dunno. I'm sounding really messed up now :>

I'd never be conflicted by enjoying my kink, or anything -I- enjoy or anything someone else enjoys... though demonstrativeness itself embarrasses me, of any sort. Like... it's just that I can't be part of that without... er... well, I can't. It's too... weird to me. I think I'm just... bad with group enthusiasm, I really am. I'm just... it's the crowd objectification thing, that's all.

Anyway, you're right, I didn't touch on any of this, ahahah. Oh man -.-