*wibble*

[reenka]

Okay, so there's this vid. `Prayer for the Dying', about Spike & his reasons for getting a soul, and. Omg, it's just doing a number on me. Every time I watch it, I cry. I think partly it's Rufus Wainwright and his singing ('Hallelujah'), which just drives me insane. Sometimes it seems too maudlin to me, but other times it just breaks me into tiny little pieces like nobody's business. I'm curious as to what reactions other people have to this vid, I guess.

This is the kind of thing that gets me-- this sort of hopelessness coupled with transcendence. I keep wondering why the "good guys" don't usually hit this spot inside me-- I just think I identify more with the painful need for something never quite reached and possibly never reachable. But Buffy & Angel aren't very reachable either, so it's not just that. It's all about the desire to go through with it anyway, I think. The desperation that's so overwhelming, common sense just flies out the window. I don't think I could ever forgive Angel for giving up on Buffy, you know.

It's like that quote by Blake: "Those who restrain desire, do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained". And isn't that one of the central tragedies and joys of existence? Always craving the thing you can never have. Being love's bitch. Wanting to become someone you're not. Aspiring to things you know are doomed.

See... Angel didn't -want- his soul. Spike did-- and to me that makes a much more resonant story. Angel is all about refusing the things that he needs and wants in penance or fear-- Spike is all about clinging to them come hell or high water. And while I do think that this refusal and restraint is "romantic"-- is, in fact, one of the major touchstones of the "romantic hero"-- it's a different ideal of romanticism. More Apollonian than Dionysian, I would say. More in common with the Greek ideal and less so with the Pre-Raphaelites.

I'm still kind of upset 'cause I read somewhere that anyone who's really into Buffy/Spike-type love is emotionally immature because they don't realize that kind of thing can't last and is thus useless compared to "real", "permanent" companionship. It's like-- people who assume permanence and ease and trust are the adult things and thus the desireable things-- they make me insecure. They may be right, and it scares me. Passion dies-- but to me, that makes it beautiful-- because before it dies, it really -lives-.

That's partly why I can't think of how Harry&Draco "end up", and don't particularly enjoy "mature" relationship stories about them-- because, well... truth is, they probably end up breaking up after a year or less. Right? Well, in most universes. It's not inevitable by any means, and in fact I don't want to even consider it, but... that's how the cookie crumbles, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, just being realistic here.

Anyway. It just breaks me, thinking that Spike got a soul -for- Buffy, in a sort of hopeless desperate gamble-- and that he never seemed to regret it even though it didn't exactly pay off. It's like... we really live in those moments. Disconnected from the rest of our lives. Those moments... when the past peels away... and there's just pure emotion and nothing else. And Spike died happy, because he died in that transport of pure emotion; pure love. And then, there you have it. Death-- and endings-- and loss. They become painfully beautiful.

Comments

[maggie-malfoy.livejournal.com]

Oh my God- so much with the wah!!! The moment I heard the opening bars of the song, my eyes filled up :(( Oh, so much with the Spike loff...

*incoherent*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

One of the only BTVS episodes I ever saw was the one where Buffy realizes Spike got his soul back--a friend had me watch it. She's a big Spike fan. I loved it.

I'm still kind of upset 'cause I read somewhere that anyone who's really into Buffy/Spike-type love is emotionally immature because they don't realize that kind of thing can't last and is thus useless compared to "real", "permanent" companionship.

See, this just proves how confused some people are.:-) They assume everyone is looking for the same things they are in a fictional relationship. If I were considering a man I was going to marry or something I'd naturally have a different set of priorities--is he going to pay the rent because a big one, obviously. This has nothing to do with what necessarily draws me to a paricular pairing. The pairings talk about so much more than whether or not these two would make it to their tenth anniversary together.

I was talking about this with petitesouer the other day, how some people just watch movies and shows and read books as if the characters are real people, which they're not. But like the only way they can relate to them is as if they were real people, which I think is a shame because they are more than real people. They're ideas as well, and potential and possibility as well as themselves.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yeah... that really -is- the issue (the realness), though I haven't thought of it that way. On the other hand, there -are- definite parallels between real-life responses & fictional ones, but of course fictional ones are just more abstract, more symbolic... like dreams or something. Things -stand- for things, and sometimes they correspond to specific aspects of one's own life directly and sometimes they don't.

I've always seen characters more as ideas than as people. It's the rare character that I see as a person, and usually that's only after I've obsessed with them for a bit. I think that's something I keep butting my head against-- I keep being exasperated with people who have "issues" with a particular character as if they have to be roommates or something, but then, people just respond to fiction that way, apparently.

Sometimes I get unreasonably snappish towards a character too, of course, but usually it's 'cause of some idea behind them bothering me. I think I actually dismiss the real-world connotations of things too easily, maybe. I don't tend to -care- how I'd react personally-- I just go for the context every time. I mean, I tend to like a -couple- together and I can easily dislike both of the actual characters in it. I just like the potential of them -together-. This keeps happening, but it was especially true with H/D. It even annoys me that people assume I like Harry and/or Draco, 'cause for the longest time I didn't, particularly.

I think this is just the consequences of thinking more abstractly than is normal, or something :>

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

...How do we know Spike wanted his soul? See, I just don't get that arguement at all.

[silviakundera.livejournal.com]

It's canon. Stated textually in several episodes of BtVS and now AtS.

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

It's stated by Spike in canon, and Spike = the world's least reliable narrator, imho.

[silviakundera.livejournal.com]

I'm all about the unreliable narrator, but the writers have mentioned it as fact, so I generally take that as canon. *shrugs*

It has been said in interviews that they crafted the Season 6 Spike as purposely ambigous, to create a cliffhanger with the viewers, but then they did a purposeful reveal during the next season's open.

But twisting and tweaking canon is what meta is all about. If you ignore authorial intent, you can go on that route and do whatever you want with it.

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

I have great huge honking issues with S7, mainly because I think it completely removed the authorial intent from seasons 1-6 and pretty much undermined everything we knew the series mythos as being.

But then the fact I disrespect Joss leaves me biased. *shrugs*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know it was confusing at the end of season 6. According to Joss (apparently) they were keeping their "options open", so yeah, it seemed like he wanted to get the chip out. But then they kind of... went the other way. Spike said so in the beginning of season 7, though I'm not good with ep numbers. It was the one where they're in a church, and Spike's embracing the huge cross & starting to smoke-- and I think there were other scenes where he talked about it in the High School basement.

Anyway, he basically said (in a third-person sort of way) that he did it to be "worthy of her". To be "the kind of man" who... well... can be "hers". It was this intense scene where he's saying all this and Buffy's staring at him with wide-open eyes, not moving, just kind of staring at his naked back while he's smoking from cross contact. So yeah, that's it.

Also, hi~:) It makes me all pleased to think you're reading me~ :D I was about to respond to the other comment but you deleted your other journal and such. :T
Though yeah, about that, it's true that I don't really have a BtVS-canonical definition of redemption, but then... I mean, to me it only matters what -I- think, ahahahah. Well, when it comes to whether I'm satisfied with a story arc or whatever, y'know? 'Cause otherwise we get into author intent, which gets slippery-slope-like and such.

That's the thing I really loved about S7-- besides Andrew. The way it was still All About Buffy, for Spike. The way she was still his compass. That tied it together to pre-soul Spike enough for me, y'know. Of course, I'm hugely biased, I suppose. But he was always clutching at her, still-- wanting her to stay with him when he was going mad from the voices, because she made things quieter, seeing the First mostly in the guise of Buffy, really needing her to say she believed in him.... It's like... well, of -course- it was all for her.

And well, (in "Grave", I think it was?) when he got the soul... he kept saying, "what she deserves". And yeah, he said it like it was a curse... but really, I mean, he blusters and all that, but I don't think he -could- really intentionally set out to hurt her like that. He wanted -something-, going to Africa, and I think it would be a huge cop-out to just say he wanted the chip out-- and mind you, he never said that directly. My guess is that he wasn't being entirely honest with himself, but that a part of him definitely knew what he was doing, and just wanted to make things right. Because he really really loved her, and I mean, just knowing that proves he wanted his soul. To me. :>

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

I am so very tempted to address this in my LJ, cause I am thinking of this meta post about Buffy and Spike and Angel and AtS and BtvS, and basically, why I think Buffy and Spike should have been killed lest the horror that was S7 have appeared. Cause words to express how much I dislike it have yet to be invented. Um....Do not hate me if I do?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Address! Address! I'm always pleased to inspire more discussion, and I can always discuss more there as well as here, no matter~:)) Ahahahaha Buffy and Spike killed. *laughs* Well, I'd have been okay with it as long as it was a Good Death, y'know. It had to have involved something... er... involving the mention of the word "love", possibly touch-age of some sort and like... longing looks as they combust into a heavenly fire o'doom. yeah. I could dig that. *coughs*

Also, have you been watching AtS? 'Cause I keep seeing this clip of Buffy & Spike in vids that I can't seem to place, with her touching his cheek and them smiling at each other. It's freaky. Like... don't remember it from S7, so... weird. I know Buffy hasn't come back to AtS yet as far as I know, but.

So yeah. Will not hate you. Will probably be amused, especially if you went on about Teh Season 7 Hate. 'Cause. Hate is always funny~:))
I can never look at S7 100% rationally 'cause of the Spuffyness. They were good together. Spike was all emotional and breaking-downy. Andrew was cute. If you ignore the larger story arc, there was a number of things to enjoy, I think :>

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

Um. I hate S7 Spuffy, it's why I hate S7 and made me hate them and why I probably won't be watching Angel S5 when it shows here which is WAH cause it was my favourite show of the two, easy.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

There's Spuffy in Angel now?? Ha. I heard that SMG isn't going to guest star for awhile since she wants her movie career or something....?
It's because it was semi-fluffy, wasn't it :>
Well... I know what you're saying. I mean, I'm very easy-- gimme them looking at each other meaningfully in any context and I'm there. Actually... well... I ship them because of `Once More With Feeling' & 'Crashed'. I probably would have during Season 5 if I'd -watched- Season 5 that much. I remember seeing the marriage episode ages ago and immediately shipping them, and duuuude, I barely knew anything about them back then. I mean, put Spike & Buffy on the screen (apparently) and poof! I ship!

They've just got this. Chemistry. And they still had that, didn't they? The looks they give each other... they still did that. And okay, it was kind of pathetic and sad in a whole new way, and I actually didn't enjoy S7 much at all (which isn't to say I hated it, I just didn't like it/love it, really)... but.... I do think that Buffy was bound to crack sometime. A part of me is just happy 'cause they gave us clips to use out of context, like the holding-each-other scene and the wiping-his-blood scene and the -holding-his-fist and the cutting-him-free-from-his-bonds and the holding-hands-while-on-fire. I think this is Reena's Brain on Spuffy drugs. Mmmm, happy place :>

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

No Spuffy on Angel, but Spike is still all whiny and petulant and -stupid- like he was during S7 and argh.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh, -that-. Yeah, there's that, isn't there. Ha. I avoid him for much the same reasons, actually. On the other hand! One should probably cut him some slack for going insane & so on. .... I could easily see Spike as whiny, too :> I mean... that's just anger without arrogance. And he's been kicked down a few notches in that dept., what with all the guilt.

Still, didn't he have some powerful moments, anyway? Like... truly breaking-down-and-losing-it moments? I think I have really selective memory sometimes :> But I know what you mean. I just kind of... give lee-way, I guess.

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

I think when I finish this rant, you may want to poke me with sharp things. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heee! I can only imagine :D :D!!
So you're saying it's anti-Spike, then~:)) I think I'm pretty open to pathetic whiny losers 'cause I'm pro-canon!Draco, y'know? Ahahahah. I mean, it has to get preeeetttyyy bad before I'm like, "no! You loserish fiend! Away from me!!"
I mean, I adore Andrew. That should tell you everything~:)) Though I do have my limits, as my exes could testify. At some point I snap and can't take the whining no mo'. Heh.

Still. I feel Spike did transcend the whining in the last ep. "Chosen" was pretty good, wasn't it? Wasn't it? *wheeeeedles* Selective memory is your friend~:)

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

I felt cheated by Chosen on a deep and heartrending level. Er...

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Okay, I see your problem, then~:)
I think as an episode, it was written pretty well and had good acting and then there was the last bit, which made me all "!!!!". But... if you're looking for some sort of... specific finale to the overall arc... I can see how it would be disappointing. Although, heres_luck did a pretty satisfying analysis (http://www.livejournal.com/users/heres_luck/46076.html) of why "Chosen" works within the larger story structure, which worked for me. I mean, I really liked the "who can stand up, will stand up" idea-- the multi-Slayerness. And I just generally felt it was effective at what it seemed to want to do. Which doesn't help if you didn't want it to do it.

Me, I just like the very end, eheheh. I am easy, this is basically what it is~:)

[nothingbutfic.livejournal.com]

Oh, I loved the end. If S7 was just that final shot, I would have loved it.

Sadly, it wasn't.

[sparklespiff]

I'm still kind of upset 'cause I read somewhere that anyone who's really into Buffy/Spike-type love is emotionally immature because they don't realize that kind of thing can't last and is thus useless compared to "real", "permanent" companionship.

You know, it's funny, because I thought the Buffy/Spike thing was much more "real" than the Buffy/Angel relationship. Buffy/Spike was/is so painful and problematic and messy and... gah... the emotion and Buffy/Angel always seemed so fairytale and Romeo and Juliet and loving idealized versions of the other person without knowing who they were at all. Of course, I'm one of those crazy "serial killer lovers," (*eyeroll*) so whatever.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I know exactly what you mean, especially about the 'idealized versions' part, 'cause I think that's exactly it. A part of me does like that fairy-tale, and that part would't mind Buffy/Angel... but... I think safe love is a cop-out anyway. If it's not ripping you apart, just how real is it, anyway? Life & love & all that are -supposed- to do that to you. And, well, make you happy too, if you let it.

And anyway, I think it's pretty clear that Spike's dream was to give Buffy everything Angel did and more, but she just wouldn't have it. I mean, the boy stuck around Drusilla for 100+ years, didn't he (and she wasn't exactly easy to love, was she). I think it takes a certain amount of crazy masochism, certainly, but hey.

But yeah. It's hard not to get that twinge, y'know. Like... a part of me doesn't even -want- to be "emotionally mature" like that, but. Eh. What do most people know about love, anyway :>

[evildiorama.livejournal.com]

Hmm...I'm just going to jump in here and ask if anyone knows the name of that Rufus Wainwright song...Is it actually on any of his albums? Broke my heart it did

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It's 'Hallelujah' and I think it's off the 'Shrek' soundtrack (track 10). Ahhh, the wonders of Kazaa~:))

[pushdragon.livejournal.com]

It's a Leonard Cohen song, one of the finest songs ever written. The cover on Shrek is by John Cale.

[I hope you don't mind me butting in here. I normally just read your fic quietly and don't say anything.]

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah, a little more digging on Kazaa uncovered that it was Leonard Cohen's song. Come to think of it, it does have that air about it... 60s/70s, anyway. Reminds me of some of my favorite Bob Dylan songs, too ("Baby Blue", a little bit). Mmmmmm. It's really enthralling, with a powerful hook and gorgeous lyrics and Rufus Wainwright's cover is just beautiful-- so emotional and intense. It really does the lyrics justice. He's almost weeping through it. Mmm. And it fits late Season 6/7 B/S so well, too. Just. Wow.

The lyrics knock me dead. Just. Again and again. Wah.

And, dude! Who ever -minds- getting comments, anyway? More, I say! More! :>