~~ pathetic, I know.

[reenka]

Partly, it's that I feel so weird about being on all these BNF-watcher/lister journals. I suppose it's just... the idea ruins my little dream of community, since my not feeling left out and marginal and misunderstood and lost is always such a precarious thing. I cling to the people who I like and who seem to understand me, and the sheer -publicness- of the BNF-label judgement bothers me. It's hard to find the balance between what is "fandom" and who are people who like -you- and who are "fandom acquaintances" who see you as part of the mass and would leave without saying goodbye (and when you take one for the other, oh, therein lies angst and disappointment, especially if you tie all this to the lj flists).

I've felt like I was part of a community-- not exactly of friends-- more of peers. Which makes me not-quite-comfortably halfway between two camps-- the people who watch (and gossip about the mass of the fandom) and the people who're just friends, hanging out. I suppose people listen to me, but it feels precarious because I'm don't often talk normally to people. I'm like... fannishness personified. In a way, that's plebish and dorky (and well, not true of me, even though 1 and a half years later, I'm -still- obsessed with H/D fic). I both take it too seriously for the average fan (regardless of intelligence or dedication to ship or fandom) and not seriously enough for the fandom scholars, I'd think.

Somehow I find myself in the ridiculous position of wishing I was more "real", which means less fannish, probably...? I mean, I'm not here for the intellectual discussion by any means. It's just. Frankly? Squeeing reeeeeally bloody annoys me. There you have it. Mass squeeing, anyway. Hate. It. Makes me hate the source, too. Like, I have to actively look beyond a piece's popularity on order not to have a knee-jerk hate reaction. Like. The `Peter Pan' movie. I really enjoyed it, though I had serious issues with the romance aspects & the ending. But I'd have been much happier with the movie if everyone and their brother didn't squee about it. 'Cause. It's -mine-. It's been mine for -ages-. And now. It's -public property-. Delusional as this whole train of thought is-- it's just how I feel.

Still. I know that's the foundation of fandom. This is why I'm not in a bunch of fandoms, see. I pretty much can't stand fannishness. Of anything. Ha. I realize how hypocritical this is, since I so passionately adore so many things. It's just-- doing it publically & en masse just gives me shudders.

And yet. You know. Fandom is such a great social engine-- because that's what ties people together, isn't it? Common interests, common passions. And in the end, whether you're "in" or not depends on whether you -feel- like you're in or not, whether you want to be enough to project that outwards. People seem to respond to being wanted.


I think the key to "breaking in" or whatever is just to see the people who make up any given mass as -individuals-. If you pay attention to people on a per-case basis while noticing the threads that bind them-- ie, who are they friends with, what are their common friends with another fan, who do they admire, who admires them-- then you see a community and you can join it in one of three ways (at least)--

- You can talk individually to the people that fascinate you or seem most interesting;

- You can do things that attract group attention, like posting things on mailing lists, starting fests or communities or websites or what have you, or writing (currently in demand or just really good) fic.

- You can squee with them at the things they squee at, or alternatively, squee -at- them, repeatedly, till they remember you, and eventually think of you as an individual they talk to.

I've found that the people who feel left out have a certain MO.

- They care about writing quality rather than squeeful fannishness, thus they have little in common with most of the louder segments of fandom;

- Or alternatively, they are content with the fannish reading and don't see their squeeing as something that needs to be actively broadcasted. (I'm not sure how this works in smaller fandoms with these people-- maybe you can whisper "yeay" and be heard, so it's just a loudness difference.)

- Somehow, they don't see -individuals- as being part of the fandom, and only see the group as an entity they're intimidated/bored by (this one's the clincher). Thus, BNFs! They're not -people-, they're like-- aspects of the mass! It's the many heads of the mindless beast! Figureheads, so to speak, heheh. Brass godlings. Although if the brass godling seems to -see- themselves that way, it's wanky and pathetic, because this BNF meta-image has something of a negative connotation because of its association with exclusion and jealousy (however arbitrary).

Ironically, people who -leave- the fandom, especially after being well-known in it, have a parallel profile--

- They see people outside of their peer-group or circle of acquaintances/friends as a "group" they don't care about or feel intimidated/bored by. It's not "fandom" at all, anymore, just a very focused group of individuals-- so fandom becomes -redundant-.

- They care about writing but no longer -fannish- writing in this particular fandom.

And then there's me. Who hangs around uncertainly, too addicted to fanfic and too lonely to make up her mind :>

Comments

[cathexys.livejournal.com]

i first wanted to disagree with you on the breaking in *g*, but i think you are right! i remember someone complaining about not being heard (that was meta but same difference) and i checked and she had posted maybe a hundred comments in her entire lj time...if you don't pay attention to other people why should they pay attention to you???

As for the quality issue...I think like attracts like, and even those folks find their niche :-)

but overall, yes, i firmly belief in the potlatch theory of fandom (http://www.trickster.org/symposium/symp41.htm), and in a way you've translated that onto the personal interaction...b/c everything you describe takes time and effort!!!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheheh now I feel guilty about not reading my flist for a few days -.- Oh man.
I always feel so weird when people say I'm "dedicated", 'cause that implies that the time I spend on the fandom is like... some sort of positive, helpful thing. And maybe it is, to the receipient of the feedback or what have you. But, I mean, it's unhealthy, isn't it. Maybe it shouldn't be encouraged.
Maybe I should be like. You're on the outskirts?? GREAT! Consider yourself as in possession of a life! >:D

Although clearly that's not necessarily true.
Sometimes I just sit there like a zombie & don't interact or think at all. Might as well feedback fanfic, ahahaha. *coughs*
But yes. It really is what you bring to it & what you want to see.

[morganmuffle]

Well don't feel you're the only one. Not sure how to respond to this but somehow I felt I had to. I've been on the edges of the "fandom" for around 2 years now and despite having an enormous flist I still have very few people I actually talk to as friends per se.

I understand the aversion to mass squeeage (which I can't spell) it's something I do often take part in but sometimes it seems like one voice is going to make no difference. I think the calmer reactions, the appreciation of good writing etc do tend to get lost.

I have days where I decide I will slip away out of it all but I can never quite manage it. I do love Harry Potter and the other fandoms I touch on and so leaving it all behind seems silly. Also whenever I decide it's all pointless and I'm sick of being an outsider someone makes an intelligent post like yours or a great piece of fic and I wonder why I thought leaving was such a good idea. I suppose being on the edge isn't such a bad thing in the end.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

No, being on the edge isn't a bad thing. One can watch. If one likes that sort of thing, heheh. Most people watch but don't -see-, which isn't as interesting. But yes... I mean... interactivity is good but not necessary, since people (and by people I mean geeks) have certainly gotten by without it before the computer age. I feel I'm a watcher at heart, though I do have a big mouth, don't I. hee.

I can & do actually talk to fandom people sometimes, and I -still- don't know what's up. If it's "real" enough yet or whatever. Y'know? I'm just paranoid. I've been online too long. Way too long. It's not just fandom. Online life itself makes me have this contradictory reaction-- like... addiction and repulsion. It sucks you in & twists reality to the point where you're not sure if what you're feeling/thinking is relevant or valid. Or maybe that's just me.

That said. I'm here for the porn, man. Everyone knows that :D

[titanic-days.livejournal.com]

Me being someone now sitting more and more on the fringes of this fandom, and probably leaving it altogether before very much longer, the last part of your entry really struck a chord. There comes a point when it's really just about the people we've gotten closed to, and care about, and so on.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Wah. *sniffle* But!
But!

I know I've never told you this, but. Yours is the one, the only post-OoTP fic I felt was really exciting and promising. WAH. I know people still write even outside of fandom, but er... well, outside of the fic (writing & reading), fandom really -is- the people we like. Why would it be anything else, at any point? What else is there? Just fic & people you like. That's it in a nutshell~:)

Completely irrelevant to the post...

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

All it needs is a pretty "Art by Reena" line, doesn't it? (http://www.lasairandmaya.com/veelamagic4.html)

And to get rid of the nasty header, but my FTP program's busy elsewhere at the mo.

:)

Thank you again.

Website errrors?

[unstasis.livejournal.com]

Not sure if its you or Reena, but a couple chapters are missing fro the side of the page and it only displays chapters up to 4 if you click on what's there. Just hought you'd liek to know.

Sorry if this page was just a preview or something.

Re: Website errrors?

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Yep, it's just a preview.

!!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

ahahah. for a second i thought that your way of asking me for fanart :D!

I'd love to, of course. *giggles* But um... yeah, then I noticed the background(!!) Oh man :D!
Though, you do know that Alice drew this (http://www.geocities.com/mediumice/HP/HPart/veelaandseeker.gif), which is like, so much prettier, right? :> And also, um, I can do something designey with the image & include the title in it & everything if you like. Mine or Alice's, that is~:))

I just redid my site (http://reenka.expecto-patronum.net), so I'm all on a roll. >:D Hee.

Re: !!

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

I clicked on the link - nothing there. Damn, I was curious!

Re: !!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

oh man. alice's website always does that -.-
uploaded it here (http://www2.expecto-patronum.net/reenka/temp/veelaandseeker.gif), for your viewing pleasure~:)

Re: !!

[lasultrix.livejournal.com]

Aw, that's cute! I wish she'd told me she drew it.
Yours is so much better for a background image, though. *loves*

[legoushka.livejournal.com]

I'd love to add something of my own, but you've just summed it up so nicely. Of course, I may be agreeing with you just because that's pretty darn close to how I feel, especially on the on the sqeeing en-masse issue, and the knee-jerk hate reaction toward that source. Case in point, as you said - "But I'd have been much happier with the movie if everyone and their brother didn't squee about it. 'Cause. It's -mine-. It's been mine for -ages-. And now. It's -public property-." That's it exactly. Myself, I view the general fandom as a sea of rather indistinct heads, with a few faces here and there (those faces being people I have relatively frequent interactions with, and also those that are more "well-known"). I think I suffer from the bias that a good portion of the fandom is composed of relatively young and inarticulate girls who are there just to garner favours so that they can rub shoulders with the so-called "elite". That view oftentimes makes me cynical, and that's not always a good outlook (nor is it completely true, as there are plenty intelligent and articulate folks worth knowing, young or old). Kudos to you for posting this!

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heheh just when I think I've sunk to new depths of lameness with a post, someone tells me it's worth reading~:)) I'm glad. I actually see "fandom" at large as... well... yes. A mass of squeeing fangirls. I sort of have a selective vision, on the other hand. I don't exactly -notice- them as much. I seek out the things I'm interested in, and focus on them. There's always the good and the bad and the boring mixed together in any human group. People are like that :>

I'm pretty cynical a lot of the time, too. I like my cynicism 'cause it saves me from complete naivete, which is embarrassing. It's embarrassing enough being an H/D shipper, ahahah. *coughs* But anyway, thanks for readinG~:)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I think I have an advantage in that I'm so in it for ME ME ME! Well, that's not true, I'm in it for all the people that interest me, so I go straight to them and barely look up otherwise. This sometimes means I am talking to people who are BNFs, but probably that's because people who contribute are more likely to be known. Sometimes people are known for good reason, after all.

I think Gwendolyn Grace did a think on her lj once about that, probably with regards to FAP. She pointed out that some people just don't seem to get that nobody can see you in fandom if you don't talk, since they literally CAN'T SEE YOU. And squeeing, as you said, all blends together unless you shout loud and long above everyone else.

I don't really think I can deal with people I'm not interested in as individuals. I mean, obviously that doesn't mean I have to know people before I talk to them. If somebody is saying something to me I listen the same as I'd listen to anyone. But the only time I ever really want to know someone is if they seem cool as an individual and not just a name people talk about a lot.

I guess that's why I'm always so confused when I look at those BNF journals. There's people I know, but sometimes other people I don't know at all, probably because my own narrow interests haven't led me to them. It seems much more efficient to just, as you said, look at the flists and conversations in journals of people who interest you to find the people to talk to. Anything else just seems tiring. I imagine it's also tiring to be on the other end of it--would you want somebody who was constantly talking to you and going against the grain of your whole conversation? Like, what do you say to somebody who's just on a totally different page but insists on trying to talk with you because they heard you're supposed to be talked to? Ugh.

Or maybe I'm just a reverse snob. :-)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I think I'm just weird 'cause I compulsively snoop & look at random people's lj's. Maybe it's some sort of need to waste time with the least enlightening thing, I dunno. I swear to god I saw more of this fandom & lj in general than I ever wanted to. Why do I even do it? WHY GOD, WHY??! I am the most insatiably curious and yet indiscriminate person in the world. If it's at all related to an area of interest (sayyyy, Harry Potter? lj? computers? hey!) then I'll compulsively surf the net looking at things. It's sad. It really is. *laughs* So yeah, I know what you mean about people being known for good reason. I'm sure this works well for sane people~:))

I see people as individuals by default, 'cause if I don't like them... depends in what way I don't like them, though. Like... if they piss me off enough, I'll pay attention just so I can argue. If they're -boring-, then it's like, "off to the masses you go". Though god knows I've looked at enough boring people in my life. Ahahahah. Oh man. Maybe it's a form of masochism. Like the way I read H/D badfic. (AND WHY DO I DO THAT??!) But of course, I know what you mean. People who aren't interesting just sort of blend together into a mass of "them". Because the interesting people are always "us". Heh.

The BNF-journal makers are on crack. I -watch- fandom well enough (though that's nothing to brag about) to know that these aren't BNFs. Sigh. These people don't know how to watch~:) I'm both very focused and very spread out in my insane curiousity. I've never met anyone quite as informed as me about quite as pointless (to them!!) of subjects. Like, I don't care about fandom. And yet. I know way too much about it. Why? It's just. Exhausting.

I'm definitely a snob, reverse and otherwise. Because I do filter people through certain interest sieves. My mind has to have something to hold on to, otherwise, what's the point? Why do people "just talk"? How do you shallowly blather on about things? WAH. My social skillz are so nonexistent. But anyway.

Hahah I wasn't implying there were people on some sort of master list somewhere that everyone should talk to. I meant one should/could formulate their own list of BNFs/interesting people, and talk to -them-, and that'd be your fandom. That's how I did it. I didn't look at anyone else's idea of interestingness. That's just painfully stupid. But of course not below a lot of people, ahahahah. A lot of people -do- talk/watch BNFs 'cause they're "supposed" to be talked to. But that's just. Dumb. I'm not talking about dumb people. Because they're dumb, ahahahah. *coughs*

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

You are considered a BNF, I guess, because you write a lot(both fic and LJ ramblings ;D). I got to your LJ because I saw you commenting on various places and I liked what you had to say, anyway. *shrug* How does that fit into your idea of community, people who aren't necessarily like you or part of a certain circle, but just like to read what you have to say? It's not really private, but surely you don't mind it, because otherwise you would have friendslocked or something. I mean I didn't come here because someone told me Reena was TEH L337 and therefore I thought it my solemn fandom duty to watch you, you know?

Somehow I find myself in the ridiculous position of wishing I was more "real", which means less fannish, probably...?

What do you mean by "more real"? A lot of the so-called BNFs are pretty inactive in fandom, but you have a good supply of fandom-related output, I think.

So, why would you want to break in, in the first place? Just to attract attention to yourself? I think you have to talk to people and contribute in some way to get yourself listened to, but that's not the same as vowing to climb the slippery popularity slope so that you will have oodles of minion fangirls, or something. I am confused. -_-

It's just. Frankly? Squeeing reeeeeally bloody annoys me. There you have it. Mass squeeing, anyway. Hate. It. Makes me hate the source, too. Like, I have to actively look beyond a piece's popularity on order not to have a knee-jerk hate reaction.

But again, I must point out that *you* squee. You disclaim it by saying that you do not mean it seriously, but you are just expressing your emotional reaction. What do you think anyone else is doing when they squee? I don't get it. Also, I don't get this popularity-hate thing, although I do understand it, sort of. Really popular things make me predisposed to dislike them, sometimes, or at least make me judge them to a really high standard so they usually fail my expectations. But I can't help thinking, about people who say this, why are you in fandom in the first place? What is more popular than the HP books?

- They care about writing quality rather than squeeful fannishness, thus they have little in common with most of the louder segments of fandom;

No. I don't think these people really want to have anything in common with the louder segments of fandom, depending on what/who you are defining as the loud segments. Also, there is a good sense of community(as far as I can tell, from LJ) among people who 'care about writing quality', or, at least, care about writing quality to the extent that they'll argue endlessly with each other about which fics contain it. ;D The majority of the fandom doesn't care about fic quality? Perhaps, but where are they, on ff.net? Many, many people care about fic quality, they just don't agree which fics are the best, and so get divided into smaller groups.

Other than that, the way you've divided motives for joining/leaving makes much sense, especially about people who are in fandom because of friends they met through fandom, and not because of fandom itself.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahah, you always pick up on my little logical leaps or places I wasn't altogether clear~:)) You'd probably make a good beta :>

Um. I wasn't saying anything about why people would read this journal, just that being called a BNF bothers me 'cause a) I'm not; and b) I see it as an insult (personally). And also because it sets me above people which goes against my sense of community & fellowship. If that makes sense. Er. I know it's kinda abstract -.- Not to say I'm not L337, 'cause clearly I am :D *nods sagely*

That's what I was saying-- I -do- have a lot of fandom output, but that makes me less... er... of a "real person". To some people, who have less fandom output. Which is a lot of the fandom, or at least a large portion of my friends list. I think the problem you have that makes you confused by some things is that you um... connect things I didn't mean to connect. Like... my thoughts jump around a lot. One doesn't necessarily follow the other except in my mind, and I don't necessarily lay down the stepping stones between them so that they're clearly linked the way I want them. That particular thought was almost entirely unrelated to everything else. Yeah, I suck at (logical) essays ><;; On the fly, anyway.

But anyway, I'd want to be more real & less fannish because that'd be more in line with what people who I want to be friends with are. Which sounds artificial, which is why I don't try to do it. Whatever "it" is, anyway. But I hate feeling like I alienate some people & that they can't "know" me through this journal and thus we can't be friends as easily, blah blah :> Anyway, totally unrelated, mostly, as I said.

I wasn't saying I wanted to break in. Ahahah I -am- in. *laughs* As in as I ever want to get, anyway. I mean, some people I'd want to -know- better in fandom (and half-out of it), but as far as being "in", I'm in. *laughs* I was talking about -people- who felt they weren't in. I'm not one of those people. Was there much confusion on that point? I never actually referred to "I", did I? Er. I mean. I -do- already have as much attention as I know what to do with. You yourself said so. *laughs*

Maybe you should guess that if it confuses you or doesn't make sense, then I didn't mean it that way...? 'Cause usually it turns out I didn't~:)

I realize I squee, heh. I did mention that this was hypocritical, didn't I? Heh. I don't squee the same way, but eh. I think I... I dunno. I squee with more deeply-felt intensity rather than the more shallow waters of fangirling. But whatever. My point wasn't a logical one. I don't think it related to anything. Heh. As to why I'm in HP fandom-- good question. Um. I HATED the books for -years-. Hatehatehatehatehate burning -hate-. Ohhhhh yesssss. Not (just) because of the popularity. I mean I read some of the first book & hated it passionately & that combined with the popularity & hype and. Well. This all comes down to the fact that I didn't actually read canon for about a year while I was in fandom, reading fanfic. What I mean is-- I -hated- the writing. I didn't -want- to read them. Fanfic was more interesting to me by a very long shot. Why stop reading happy H/D porn for badly written fantasy gen? Heh.

Anyway, I've changed my mind since then. I read beyond book 1-- actually, I started with book 4. I -loved- book 4. Then I read book 5. And then I was a drooling fangirl. 'Cause book 5 Harry = Reena is a puddle of adoring goo.

What that tangent was meant to say was-- I have anti-HP credentials, so to speak. I was forcibly converted. I am a born again HP fan, ahahahah. Oh, I crack myself up. ^^;

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Ahahah, you always pick up on my little logical leaps or places I wasn't altogether clear~:)) You'd probably make a good beta :>

Ha! You are the second person to tell me that this week. But I am much afraid of letting my subjectiveness meddle with people's creativity...Anyway, I only pick up on these things because I am confused and need more explaining! And I know you like to explain, er, right? :D

Um. I wasn't saying anything about why people would read this journal, just that being called a BNF bothers me 'cause a) I'm not; and b) I see it as an insult (personally). And also because it sets me above people which goes against my sense of community & fellowship.

Ah. I read it that the idea of BNFness annoyed you because you wanted to interact with a specific community, and so people who were just reading without giving back to that certain idea of community you found strange. But it sounds like you mean that BNFness creates arbitrary social distinctions that should not be! If so I agree. :)

That's what I was saying-- I -do- have a lot of fandom output, but that makes me less... er... of a "real person". To some people, who have less fandom output. Which is a lot of the fandom, or at least a large portion of my friends list.

But anyway, I'd want to be more real & less fannish because that'd be more in line with what people who I want to be friends with are. Which sounds artificial, which is why I don't try to do it. Whatever "it" is, anyway. But I hate feeling like I alienate some people & that they can't "know" me through this journal and thus we can't be friends as easily, blah blah :>

Well you could always *be* more real. No one's exactly stopping you, are they? The key to making people envy your exciting fast-paced lifestyle, I think, is writing about your lifestyle as if it were fast-paced and exciting, even if it isn't!

I wasn't saying I wanted to break in. Ahahah I -am- in. ....Was there much confusion on that point? I never actually referred to "I", did I?

No, I understood you there. I got confused myself, by switching to 'you' in the general sense. Like, if 'you', the general people, want to break in, then, blah blah.

I don't squee the same way, but eh. I think I... I dunno. I squee with more deeply-felt intensity rather than the more shallow waters of fangirling.

But how can you know? How do you judge the degree of sentimentality invested in a squee? ;D

I HATED the books for -years-. Hatehatehatehatehate burning -hate-. Ohhhhh yesssss. Not (just) because of the popularity. I mean I read some of the first book & hated it passionately & that combined with the popularity & hype and.

Yeah, I know you did, because I remember all those discussions where you were the Valiant Defender of HP fans who are in fandom without having read/liked the books and got everybody perplexed as to how that could be possible. But still. I also have that gut reaction to hate popular things, and only recently have I been realizing the weirdness of this tendency in myself. Because I don't think you really should hate things without judging them on their own merits. And then some other days I do get little twinges of guilt for being Yet Another on the colossal HP bandwagon, and think why couldn't I have found something to be in fandom about that isn't obsessed over by millions of little kids, wah! And I completely understand about wanting to dislike things because of the hype, wanting to see them not live up to their reputation. Yet one of my friends passionately hates the HP books and though read all of them, and continues to bash them, but when questioned about them can't remember the basic plot, and it annoys me so much. And if you're going to hate everything that's popular, because it's popular, then how can you judge popularity? Shouldn't you hate all movies, too, because any movie big enough to be in large cinemas is getting thousands and thousands of viewers?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

heheh, "degree of sentimentality". Er. You've got me there. I mean, there's no logical way-- it's just a -sense- I get. Um. Yeah. *looks shifty*

Also. I don't hate -all- popular books/movies... that would get frustrating. I -did- dislike HP because of specific reasons. I disliked the way book 1 started-- with the Dursleys and the blatant morality play and the simplistic style and. That whole... yeah. Morality play combined with 2nd grade-level writing? Eeeurgh. But also, I was just bitter 'cause suddenly, fantasy was "cool", whereas I've been reading YA school-days fantasy for -ages-. Ages. This is my turf, man. I know it backwards and forwards. I probably know more about (obscure & mainstream) fantasy & YA fantasy than 98% of the people in fandom and who read HP in general. I'm a fantasy fan. Most people who read HP aren't. This pisses me off.

In fact, casual, only-the-popular-stuff fantasy fans-- Piers Anthony & Mercedes Lackey and whoever's selling best-- really piss me off too. What's even more funny is that the people who really like my secret loves-- like... Patricia McKillip or Emma Bull, say-- they really kind of bother me too, 'cause I get possessive. There is no winning. And neither is there any logic to my brain. I'm just. Er. Yeah. I wasn't cut out to be a public fan of anything :>

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Wah, comment deleted.

I just said that I like the early HP books because I read them as kids' book and I think they're very good kids' books.

As for ye: no, you can't win with the dislike of popularity combined with possessiveness of obsessions. ;D What would make you happy? Really obscure stuff, which you don't like, being liked by a small group of people?

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, see, that's what I meant about not being cut out to be a fan of anything :> As is, I'm pretty fit for HP, which I now both like & dislike, eheheh. I've grown used to the publicness and I appreciate the fact that my favorite pairing is so very popular-- thus I get lots of fanfic to read. I never meant to get into fandom. It was all about tracking fic, see. Because people posted fic on LJ, and I wanted to read fic, so I friended them. Then I reviewed because-- er-- it didn't occur to me not to. It just snowballed :>

[tocomfortyou.livejournal.com]

HAHAHAHAHAHA.


Oh Reena, if you tell people the way to break in is by talking, why are you surprised by the BNFdom? You never shut up! :DDDDD I think it's really really funny that today I got added to like, BNF LJ 92309834 because I realized last week that hey, I don't actually do anything in fandom anymore. The fandom as a whole is just shitty, I'm here for you guys. I could probably let go of fandom, but ya'll are stuck with me for life. ♥

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

...
If by "you guys" you mean your whole flist, then you've got commitments, man, ahahahah. ♥
>:D

[tocomfortyou.livejournal.com]

Oh my God, no!!! I don't even know half these people, man. But some of you...

*high-pitched cackling (again)*

[trolleys.livejournal.com]

Hullo hullo :D

I've been fascinated by your past several entries but didn't know how to respond cuz you've touched on so many points that often made me nod in agreement or raise questionmarks over my head or say "oooh damn, I never thought of it like that." Et cetera. Reading you is a lot like going through someone's stream-of-consciousness, and I like it, yo. :) Anyhoo, I'll attempt to respond to a couple of your points:

Re: the Felliniesque BFN deathmatch trend of late. I think it's a monster that couldn't have been prevented. Fandom is mostly a self-governing entity, no? So I think this is essentially a method - as twisted as it is - of collectively purging all the BNF-related wankery that's been brewing under fandom's skin. Could it even be saving itself by parodying itself viciously. :-?

I have to actively look beyond a piece's popularity on order not to have a knee-jerk hate reaction.

That's interesting - I'm like that way about music and movies. *Especially* movies that are raved about for its sentimentality. I.e. when Titanic came out, I had to be dragged into the theaters kicking and screaming and vomiting, and this was like months into the whole Titanic hype. Heh. But regarding fandom, BNF's and their fics are the reason why I broke into the HP fandom at all. CC is one of my favorite fanfic writers and certainly not for her BNF status. God, that gal can write. Spade a spade, etc. I think my fandom experience would have been *much* different had I been forced to scour a bazillion authors to pick out the good stuff. (And expectedly, there are BNF's whose writing I don't care for, and many obscurer authors whom I think are woefully overlooked.) Even in an autonomy, I think people still look for places of mass convergence and faces to identify with - and BNF's provide those. The comfort/familiarity factor. (Thei quality of their writing being purely subjective) And here's where I babble on about the patterns of human nature but I'll mercifully spare ye. ;)

Re: Squeeage. Haha, Duckpup = perpetrator extraordinaire. :D Er, I'm not sure I even like the term 'squee'. I'd say that I acknowledge. Yeah. I like to acknowledge art and fics that really grab me because I believe fandom peeps don't want to feel like they're shouting into a void. When something hits a right chord in me, I wanna let the artist/writer know. I like to see people get rewarded for their efforts either through praise or constructive criticism. And really, commenting (with varying degrees of 'squeeage' - sometimes none at all) is my main method of communication in this fandom. My M.O. is sharing fandom stuff while still guarding the more personal RL side of me. I probably won't garner many socialization points for that, but that's just how I work, baybeh. Besides, it makes for less stress (not having to worry about who knows what about me) which I certainly have plenty of in RL :P C'est moi, c'est ca...

I wish I could respond to more of your points but gah, my poor fingers.

[/my longest post evahhhh]

[trolleys.livejournal.com]

BTW - I added you to the list.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

ahahahah oh man. I was about to go to asleep (it's like, um... 4:30am here...) but I just had to say I didn't mean it freaked me out in a bad way. Just. It is so smooth. Your technique. The clean lines. The sketchiness sits better with my verbalization ability, 'cause when I see something really smooth & finished-looking I just sort of... stare appreciatively. That's the only reason I can think of that I comment a lot on Nefeleo's & Glock's & Lunulet's & Bhanesidhe's art & not yours & Seviet's & Magsby's & Starling's, for instance. The former is much more messy so my mind latches onto it more...? I dunno.

Also, it's like... the sheerness of the finish overwhelms the piece for me, unless it's humorous, plus I've been waiting for your Draco to mature, heheh, 'cause the characterization's been bothering me (well, the shameless fanonness, heheh), though your Harry's cool. I knew you were just beginning, so I was curious to see how your characterizations would develop-- since the look changed a bit with each pic, so I could tell it was just developing, so I was kind of in the observing stage.

Whereas with Seviet, I feel like she's so finished in style & just... -defined- that it's like looking at professional art. And professional-type stuff leaves me without immediate coherent feedback. I could think of something after the initial "..." reaction wears off, but by then my fruit-fly of an attention span has died ><;;

Anyway, I really really really liked all your Draco/Hermione sketches. Well, the sketchiness & the way you were madly experimenting with characterization. I felt like you were really getting into their characters rather than just the lines, y'know? I dunno. Since you were unsure what you wanted, that allowed -them- to come through more. I feel drawing/making stuff you don't really find pretty or sexy/attractive in any way to be... broadening 'cause it forces you to... I dunno. Listen to the subject more. And also the slight discomfort of a new medium. Helpful. One gets better in general. The sneer on Draco was wonderful. And the sneer on Hermione! Ha!! :D Prissy, pinched-looking Hermione!

I like things less smooth/pretty and more dorky & emotional, if you can't tell~:) Though pretty is also good. If it can also be dorky :>

See, now I rambled. This happens when I can't think~:)) Which is most of the time -.-

[trolleys.livejournal.com]

Oh, hee~ I didn't think you meant it in a bad way. It's interesting to hear your reasoning because I'm quite the opposite - I'm drawn toward the glossy and shiny. But I love sketchy stuff too.

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned waccawheels! Since you like sketchy/emotional style, you will love her. She calls her stuff 'doodles' but I'd say they're damn professional. /pimp

plus I've been waiting for your Draco to mature, heheh, 'cause the characterization's been bothering me (well, the shameless fanonness, heheh), though your Harry's cool. I knew you were just beginning, so I was curious to see how your characterizations would develop-- since the look changed a bit with each pic, so I could tell it was just developing, so I was kind of in the observing stage.

*CURIOUS*! Heh, yesyesyes, I likes it good when someone concrits my art, especially on style and characterization. Cuz I'd like to know how my art triggers a certain reaction in people you know? When you said Draco's characterization bothered you, did you mean his appearance or attitude? (hair too long? too schmoopy?) I could understand how my version of fanon!Draco irks some people... hee. It's cool that you've noticed a slight change in each pic because at this stage I'm still trying to find the H/D I'm fully comfortable with. Like, Glock and Seviet are very consistent with the look of their characters. Hopefully I'm getting there...?

Oh and don't feel obliged to comment on my work - I mean, I'm just glad that people are nice enought to take time to look at my art, you know? :D Like I said in my previous post we should give fb to the stuff that strikes a chord ..

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

I like sketchy, but my faaaavorite is intricate. Mmmm intricateness. I droooown in it. Have you ever seen David Mack's comics? OMG. The man's art gives me visual orgasms with every panel. It's not sketchiness-- it's -controlled- and complex. Mmmm, complexity. I thrive on it. Give me enough and I'm in hog heaven. But... I'm also shallow. I like the pretty. I like subject matter that is attractive to me-- like nude boys snogging, say. Wacca draws Sirius & Harry a lot... and her Harry isn't my Harry. At all. But I love her art. But... this is why I mostly follow gen fanartists & H/D people. Lunulet is an exception. Because. I dunno. It's a thing~:) Her style owns me. Intricate! :D

Long hair is fine. The thing with your Draco is that you don't always give him a distinct personality. Like... emotional background. There's no anger, arrogance, disdain, passion-- things I associate with him, fanon or canon. That's why I love your little cartoons best-- 'cause he has -expression- and emotional resonance there, even if it's exagerrated. If he's too pretty & kissy-kissy, he loses his edge. He's like Spike that way, to me.

It takes a unique gift to draw (just like write) kissy H/D and remain recognizably H/D. Y'know? They have this animosity, this chemistry. They boil and bubble and cause trouble. Most H/D pics don't capture this at all, but I'm a slut for style, so. But if the style isn't hitting my exact kink, then I'm more critical of characterization, I guess. That said, I do love your art, man~:))

[trolleys.livejournal.com]

*BONKED* Thanks for telling me about David Mack cuz... DAMN. I just peeped his stuff and he is AMAY-zeringggg. I'm a sucker for Asianized pretty art.

While we're swapping artists... Yoshitaka Amano! My favorite fantasy artist, hands down. His style is ethereal and dreamy and just godlike. (and intricate! *g*)

There's no anger, arrogance, disdain, passion-- things I associate with him, fanon or canon.

I curse my former anime-drawing habit for this! Heh. I completely see where you're coming from. I think the blandness of Draco spawns mainly from my own laziness... It's easier to slap on a Jesus-y contemplatively nebulous expression. :p That said, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on the next H/D piece I'll be posting cuz... well, you'll see. ;p

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah~:) David Mack, man. He's done some Daredevil recently. Guh. *toes curl* And he has his own (painted! watercolor! *drools!*) comic, Kabuki, about Japanese girl assassins. OH YEAH >:D!

I have a -boatload- of favored fantasy/comics artists. Like. There are so many. And so many are GOD-LIKE. I look at those anthologies and go, "I AM NO WORTHY". Fanartists get all this squee, and it's like, "wow, you're gr8! with an 8! professional!" and then I -see- professional. And it ain't nothin' like anyone's fanart, man. Nothin'. Not that they need to be comparable. Even so, do you browse the `Spectrum' collections and other fantasy art collection books? OMG. I die, every time, multiply. *siiiigh*

And yes, I love Amano, man. Yum. Prettyyyyy. And unique. And. There was once an exhibition of his work at NYC while I was still there but I was lazy and didn't go :((
I still regret that. I suck. Wah.
Fantasy (and comic) art is like... one of the areas I know most about. Heh. 'Cause I'm a drooling fangirl, of course~:)

And yeah, I know what you mean about the contemplative expressions being easier. I was like that with the front doodle to the comic-type-thing from a couple of days ago. I realize that the thing that really prevents it from looking like Harry & Draco isn't really features but expression. Or the lack thereof :> Otherwise it's, you know, just a blond boy & a dark-haired boy with glasses, at the extreme. And what's more, you don't know anything about these boys. Heh.

But sometimes your inner Draco does break free, as in tne cartoons & the Draco/Hermione sketches. Mine too, seems to come to me when I'm not paying as much attention to craftsmanship & just let the muses (or whatever) speak to me. It's a balance, I'd think :>

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Eheheh! Viggo! I can't believe that's Viggo! *dead*

I always wonder about people who friend everybody. Like. Whether they actually -read- me in particular. So thanks :D ahaha. Good to know~:))
Often people comment who I was -sure- don't like, -ever- read anything I say. Maybe they've forgotten I exist. Not that this would be a huge loss to them or anything. But still.

Anyway. Where was my point?
I like the idea of BNF-thingies being needed. Hmm. I can see that. Ahahah. Lets people's poison out semi-safely. Or something. Though OoTP really didn't revitalize/restart the fandom at all, did it. *siiiigh* I feel a bit as if fandom's chewing on its own diseased carcass sometimes, ahahah. o_0

I have the knee-jerk-hate thing with -everything-. I think... I dunno. I'm very contrary. Very. You-say-yes-I-say-no. -That- contrary. I'm like the girl in the nursery rhyme, eheheh. ^^; I do agree with people pretty often, though. I'm reasonable, eheheheh. Sort of. It's only when I feel like I -have- to agree that I disagree. If I see someone implying/stating this is the only way to think, I rebel. It's really annoying that people accuse me of this, since it's like the devil's own device to drive me insane. Like. Poetic justice, I guess....? I'm passionate, and this often gets interpreted as attempted brainwashing...? I guess?

I know other people are just being passionate too, see. So. Um. But. They annoy me because it's... shallow? Loud? I dunno.

Reccing isn't the same. I rec all the time. I have a whole page o' recs (http://www.core.binghamton.edu/~lorien/story/_fic.html) I constantly update. Pointing out artists/writers if Of The Good. That's not the same thing, though I admit the difference is both subtle and subjective.

Saying, "OMG THIS IS THE BEST THING EVAH, YOU HAVE TO AGREE OR YOU'RE A MORON, OMG!!1 >:O!!"
...is offensive to me. Say -why- at least. Or... something.
That said, I do squee. But not about the popular things, usually.
It's not that I only like unpopular things (my favorite fanfic authors are pretty popular, most of them). It's just. I dunno. Kissing ass. That's what peeves me. Y'know?

[sileas.livejournal.com]

I think the key to "breaking in" or whatever is just to see the people who make up any given mass as -individuals-. If you pay attention to people on a per-case basis while noticing the threads that bind them-- ie, who are they friends with, what are their common friends with another fan, who do they admire, who admires them-- then you see a community and you can join it in one of three ways (at least)--

This is very interesting, because I've always felt outside of every community. I never feel part of a community except when I'm talking to one individual alone (quite weird, but that's how it feels to me).
My way of entering fandom is commenting on other people's LJ posts, I guess. I don't post many memes or pass on messages that need to be passed on (a publicity post like a new Harry Potter Challenge). I'll perhaps contact one person, tell it to that person and hope that person contacts 'the community' or passes the message on to another individual.

I'm also not the same person on LJ, with feedback and on mailing lists. I use my real name when giving feedback (and don't mention my LJ name although that other person knows me well on LJ and would undoubtedly recognize my LJ name). I don't augment my LJ status by giving feedback, in other words. If they read my feedback, I want the author to read it without any preconceptions about myself. (and it's quite fun to see the authors writing in their LJ about a nice piece of feedback they had, while I know it's from me :-D )

I'm not for squeeing either, except when it's well deserved. That's very subjective and heavily depends on who does the squeeing. If I know a person squees a lot, I'll stop listening. But if someone squees once every few weeks, I know it's worthwhile to listen.

I'm also very negative. If 'the community' suddenly decides to build a house, I'll tell the person next to me that the building blocks don't seem to solid, that the building plan sounds faulty and that people could die falling off the building if we don't get a safety cord. It's important (and almost a duty) to tell the whole community the dangers, but I just can't address the whole group. I'm excellent as an advisor, because I'll always forgo the squeeing to see the faults in the plan.
It's much the same for me in fandom.

LJ is very good for me. It allows me to speak to one person (you, for example), but I can address anyone willing enough to read all the comments (including mine). I can pretend to myself I speak to you alone, while in fact I speak to everyone who reads the comments to the LJ post you made.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. That wasn't quite how I meant "seeing people as individuals", hehe, but it's an interesting alternative approach. I see people I barely know as individuals very quickly-- I meant-- just, I take them on a case-by-case basis, forming unique opinions for each person I read. And eventually this creates a picture of the fandom for me. So it's a perception issue rather than an interaction issue, necessarily, y'know?

I think negativity can be very useful and a lot of people overlook its necessity. I myself really enjoy negativity, ahahahah, because often enough these people are biting & funny & pointedly on-target with their critique. I like the life to be found in debate and argument. Argumentative people are more interesting. But of course I am biased.

I also look for -what- the person is reccing. If the person's reccing a piece of work by a friend of theirs, that automatically gets mega points deduced from their credibility & also really annoys me. A lot. I'm so easily set off, I know :> I also speak to one person at a time, generally. I don't know how to speak to large groups of people without sounding a bit pompous, I think, heh.

But I "broke in" by talking to a -lot- of people individually. 'Cause in that case it's not so much about passing on any particular message as... just... spending time messing about with people you like~:)

[sileas.livejournal.com]

Sorry about the late reply. ;-) I'm usually very lax at answering mail and LJ comments.

So it's a perception issue rather than an interaction issue, necessarily, y'know?

*nods* I think I do.

I myself really enjoy negativity, ahahahah, because often enough these people are biting & funny & pointedly on-target with their critique. I like the life to be found in debate and argument. Argumentative people are more interesting. But of course I am biased.

*heh* Well, I don't think I'm funny or biting. *g* I just like pointing out mistakes before people fall over their own feet while they get caught up in their own project.

I also look for -what- the person is reccing. If the person's reccing a piece of work by a friend of theirs, that automatically gets mega points deduced from their credibility & also really annoys me. A lot. I'm so easily set off, I know :> I also speak to one person at a time, generally. I don't know how to speak to large groups of people without sounding a bit pompous, I think, heh.

*nods* People reccing something they betaed or a piece from a friend of theirs, is a bit annoying. Usually though, they are straightforward with it and announce that they've betaed it or write "and I'm not saying this because she is my friend", which usually means the opposite.

But I "broke in" by talking to a -lot- of people individually. 'Cause in that case it's not so much about passing on any particular message as... just... spending time messing about with people you like~:)
*giggle* You're right, there. :-) LJ is quite a fun way to interact with other fans. Mailing lists aren't very suited for this sort of close contact.

[eleveninches.livejournal.com]

I had a discussion sort of like this with Aja yesterday, actually. I was all, 'Those stupid HP BNF ljs keep friending me, and I'm not even in the fucking fandom,' and she was saying that it's actually a compliment to be friended by one, or to be considered in the fandom even though you don't really do anything for it (you = general you), because it means that people react to you whether or not it has anything to do with fandom.

[meril.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I never thought of it that way.

My issue is that I keep getting listed or named in lists of HP fandom members on LJ although I've dropped out of "general fandom", I guess you'd call it.

I didn't really see it as a compliment because it means that nobody's been paying much attention to what I've actually been writing and creating over the past two years.

[eleveninches.livejournal.com]

HA! Perhaps you are timeless.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Heh. Well... I think the thing is... if you still talk to/hang around people who're in fandom, it's effectively being "in fandom" in a significant way. Even if it's just because you're friends. 'Cause if you think about it, "fandom" is just about people who talk to each other-- not necessarily -about- fannish things. Just... look at most people's lj's. They don't talk about fannish stuff, not like... mostly. Mostly they just... don't talk about anything at all, really. Most people don't write fic, don't review fic, don't -do- anything anyway. So, I mean. Heh.

I mean, what's the difference between a "BNF" -saying- they'll write more of your WIP, for instance, and not doing it for a year or more (*cough*aja*cough*) and... -not- saying it & not doing it. Or even saying "I won't, I'm out" and then... well, obviously not doing it, but still being... in the mix somehow? To someone, anyone? To a number of someone's, even?

Who -is- a "real" BNF who still does things, anyway? Heh. Well, Aja runs the list, and Ivy runs the list, but is that what makes people care & be aware of you? List-running and periodic good short fics?

All of this is to say-- you can't leave fandom if they don't want you to. It's like. Your fics are still public for instance, right? New fans could conceivably be made any time. Like... people are fans of -dead- authors. Just not producing anymore doesn't mean a thing :> Hey, you're alive :D :D