~~ bleary fic wibbles.

[reenka]

It's an obvious sort of thought, but.... I wonder if the stories we love best affirm to us the ways in which we were already picturing the workings of the world. The things which continuously upset me in any story or even piece of non-fiction are things which I don't want to believe in, even if they're possible. There's a resistance there, a sense of vulnerability. Like, if I let this idea inside me, it could ruin me.

Maybe this is related to what someone's comfort-zone of emotion is, too. Mine had never been so rigid before I began to care about characters too much. I mean, usually I meet them in a story and it's for the first time, and while it hurts to see them come to a sticky end, it's self-contained sort of thing, and the prose could easily overwhelm the characterization difficulties. The characterization is what it is, and there's rarely "right" or "wrong" to it, as long as it's well-documented.

The more time I spend reading fanfic in a single fandom, the more sensitive I seem to become to characterization over style. The characters (and secondarily, their world) have attained so much definition in my mind that it just hurts me to let go. I want them to remain consistent. I want them to retain some sort of compass of behavior more than anything-- not so much in-character in terms of actions, but more in terms of a sort of emotional range, maybe.

I was reading yet another rec of olympia_m's `Tale of the Shining Prince' & sequels on veelarecs, which is what brought me to this. I think that is one gorgeously written story which I can probably talk about more than any other set of fics in this fandom. I mean, no other work except perhaps the Draco Trilogy, would seem to sustain that sort of comprehensive analysis. I couldn't read it more than once, and I have all these conflicting emotions about it, which is what makes it interesting to me.


Usually, I either adore a fic, am indifferent, or can't stand it for some reason, and the good points don't much matter to me. The only fic I have near as many issues with, that I consider well-written and that inspires me to talk about it in an in-depth way would be ishuca's `Plague of Legends'. They do have certain things in common, unsurprisingly. And the big thing there is my inability to fully accept their emotional range as applied to Harry & Draco. I understand it, I think-- it's not that it's -alien- to me. Nevertheless I rebel against that sort of world, that sort of Harry. It's interesting being challenged this way, though. If, for instance, Ali's `Sins of the Father' has one of my favorite Harry's, that just makes it too easy for me, almost. That fic goes down like ice-cream-- I completely identify with the pov character, and everything else follows. Whereas in the other fics, there's this constant struggle to accept the character as real, to allow them this life that's entirely separate from me & from what I want to know of the world.

I think the stories that I adored the most upon first reading-- `Origins', `Brief Interval Before Resumption of Play', IP, even-- all have an emotional center that I could project myself into. They verbalize a state of being I always already inhabited-- I can step into the shoes of the pov character and feel comfortable there. They felt like old friends, even if they tore my heart to pieces while they sat on my living-room floor. It's interesting, comparing Origins!Harry & TotSP!Harry-- they're on opposite sides of some sort of spectrum, aren't they, and yet. And yet. I can see the thread that connects them-- maybe that's why TotSP haunts me so.

`Origins' had me from hello, and I remember all of it if I read even a snippet, like a warm wet handprint on skin. It dissipates, but it was always there at the same time. `Tale of the Shining Prince', I can't return to at all, simply because I feel like I could get lost in that world and never come out and it scares me. I want to just hate it or forget it or write it off as this-or-that, but I -can't-. And I don't know what I'm saying anymore. In order to explain what I love and what pains me about stories, in a way I'd have to explain myself. This is what I love about literature. It's like finding pieces of myself scattered everywhere, and in saying anything about them I am really talking about things I'd only barely known I was.

Comments

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely think so. And it makes sense this would happen in fanfic even more than other writing because I think people are mostly drawn to fanfic because of the characters. So you're drawn to the character in canon because something seems familiar to you, search out fanfic, then hone in on the fanfics that reflect that familiar thing more and more. That's why, I think, all of us can stomach certain OCs more than others, or can take something wildly OC over something just slightly OC because the slightly OC version has taken away the thing you need.

It's weird to try and figure out what it is you're recognizing, though. I think that's what fascinates me about Draco. He's a character that's so different from me and so different from the characters I usually go for I can't figure out what it is I'm looking for in him and in fanon version of him.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Yeah... though I was mostly thinking about the different Harry's in this case. Olympia's Draco is just -wildly- different from any other Draco, although you could say he fits a certain "type". I -can- say that any fic that gives me issues usually messes up -both- Harry & Draco without having a redeemingly great characterization of one of them while a so-so characterization of the other. It also depends what the pov character is. I'd forgive a lot of Draco-weirdness if the Harry is believable & their dynamic is the sort that I can easily imagine. Sometimes people write them and I don't care -how- extrapolative it's trying to be, I don't think, for instance, that they'd ever just cuddle & go to sleep their first night together, or whatever.

I'm rather picky, though. I was thinking of Olympia's & Ishuca's Harry's as opposed to say-- Thess' Harry & Ivy's Harry & Ali's Harry, even Aja's Harry. Aja writes H/D in a gestalt sort of way-- like, I think she writes their -dynamic- much more on-target than she writes either of -them-, so together they make sense to me whereas alone they don't, necessarily. It seems all about the emotional range, to me-- the sort of reactions they get from each other & the sort of issues they have to explore in themselves. I mean, whatever they do, wherever the plot takes them, there's that constancy of what they -need-.

I think that's what -I- look for in Harry & Draco-- a constancy of need, a sort of journey of self-realization. Draco is like, the perfect character to play "who am I, really" with, in new & different ways. And Harry, also. There's that initial seed of passion & incompleteness, a desire to prove oneself, a need to be noticed & wanted. Draco is all, wanting to be seen-- and Harry is all wary of that. I want to see how Harry sees & how Draco grows from that new perception of him. Maybe I just think of them in relation to each other too much. *sigh* I probably do. >

[justapresence.livejournal.com]

Tale of the Shining Prince' & sequels are my favorite fics in the HP fandom. I'm glad I read it :).

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

They're my least favorite of my favorite fics in the fandom-- but then, none of the epic H/D's seem all that perfect to me anymore. My brain hurts just thinking about them, and I have enough issues with her characterizations to write a small book. But I'm also glad I read it :>

[dorrie6.livejournal.com]

I want them to retain some sort of compass of behavior more than anything-- not so much in-character in terms of actions, but more in terms of a sort of emotional range, maybe.

I liked this a lot. I think that's the key for me. I can believe a lot of different things, and I don't need different authors' characterizations to be the same... I rather enjoy the differences... I like exploring all the possibilities, which I think might partly come from having started in RPS where the canon is so intangible (aka nonexistent). In any case, I know that I can enjoy a lot of different versions of the same character. There is something I want to be constant, though, and I think you've hit upon it, or come as close to hitting upon it as can be done with these kinds of thoughts that like to flutter in our heads and then flee before we can really catch onto them. Hm. Or maybe that's just me. :)

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It's hard to talk about what exactly makes a person (even a fictional person) a person, I guess. I think it changes in context, and yet somehow remains the same, and it's hard to pin down that sameness whereas it's easy to see the difference. I'm always blundering on about identity & how much that can be in flux, and it's one of my most obsessive points, determining what is really the -truth- of someone's character, and how far you can go about bending it before it snaps :>

I think infidelity is one of those things I have the hardest time believing of Harry-- I just think it would be very difficult for him to be dishonest in that way. It's at the core of him as I see him. Sort of like I don't see Draco as taking well to having actual power, and being successful at wielding it-- not without losing some essential Draconess of himself. I dunno. He can succeed, but he must have Issues that undermine it. People never really get rid of their issues. But anyway. Yes :>

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

I wonder if the stories we love best affirm to us the ways in which we were already picturing the workings of the world.

I wonder about this too, especially in the light of the - you'll only think something is good if it sits with your own world view, and therefore all judgement of fiction is subjective - debate.

I don't know if it's true, though, for me. I can certainly respect and enjoy things that don't, say, 'agree' with me, but many of the things I like the most all resonate emotionally with me at some level. Then again, sometimes I love things that present world views I completely disagree with. I *believe* one of the things that good writing does is make you change your perception, or at least forgive the different perception of the author. But I don't know if it works in practice, because characterization I don't like will put me off quickly, especially in fanfic, even though I don't go looking for specific characterizations, usually. One of the keys to it is to make the reader sympathetic with the character, which is difficult, considering every reader sympathesizes with different characers in different ways.

Just rambling ineffectually, again. :D By the way, I read a few paragraphs of Tale of the Shining Prince and ran away in fear. So. *shrug*

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Oh man, ramble ineffectually is really all -I- do. I mean, I'm so embarrassed. Eep. Then again, you know, my brain is fried by now & thankfully no one's grading me on this. o_0

I do think one of the main things one gets with great stories is a shifting of one's world-view, an enlargement. I guess I was also saying that even if beforehand, one didn't think this way, there is probably still something within you that predisposes you to grow towards this new idea. I don't know. I'm obsessed with the bit in `The Sandman' where Death tells Destruction that all human beings really know everything there is to know already, but the forgetting is all that makes it okay sometimes~:)

[chresimos.livejournal.com]

Something within you that predisposes? Maybe. I don't necessarily agree, but. Perhaps you have predispositions to a certain style, or a certain emotion, and the author needs to contact that in order to convince you.

[carrielee.livejournal.com]

Interestingly enough, Tale of the Shining Prince was my first foray into the world of HP fanfic. It was rec'd by one of my favorite Buffy writers, eliade. While I found the first bit fairly believable, by the end I found myself wondering what in the world I was reading. I feel similar to you--I couldn't read it again, but it sure got me thinking.

I can stand just about anything if it's well written. There are certain pairings that make me shudder, but in the right hands I can get over my squick. I guess to me the author is very important. I'd read just about anything the aforementioned eliade wrote, as well as anything by wiseacress. They write it, I buy it.

I suppose everyone sees the characters through their own eyes. The ability to get others to see them that way too is the hard part, and to me it's what makes a really good writer.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Well, in fanfiction, you do have (theoretically) a sort of common ground, when it comes to characterization. Otherwise it's not really fanfiction, is it. I mean, why -call- it fanfiction if it's not borrowing common elements, y'know? So yeah. I used to be pretty clueless as far as what I liked, but now I do have a pretty clear idea of what I won't accept as Harry or Draco from pretty much anybody. I will still read my favorite writers, but I won't enjoy it as much as I might've in the past. I mean, depends what one's reading for, too. I read for style & characterization equally-- some people read for both, some more for one than the other, and others read mostly for plot :>

That said, I do think that convincing the reader of one's vision of events or characters is one of the basic talents of a good writer. However, in fanfiction this also tends to correlate to convincing the reader that this version of things is somehow still tied to the original~:) I guess I'm on the fence-- there's relativity in fanfic, most definitely, but there's also a fair amount of consistency, too.

[carrielee.livejournal.com]

Agreed. If it doesn't have something that ties the characters to what you've come to expect, then it's just fiction, not fanfiction.

When a writer can take these basic characters, though, and put them in a different setting, situation, etc and still make them comfortable (to the reader) then they've done a good job. I'm thinking along the lines of really good AU fic.

I read mostly for plot (I guess), but the characters must ring true. Stretch them, yes, but don't have them unrecognizable. If they've had a "major life change," let me know how they got there. Sometimes the most enjoyable stories (to me) feature changed characters that really get me going hmm... I can see that happening, even if it's a pretty far reach from canon. They make me think. That's the best explanation of why I got into TotSP--gave my brain a workout.

[ashjay.livejournal.com]

And here I am, making an effort to jump in and comment right away before my shiny-object-ooh-look-over-there attention span does me in again.

(Although, in reference to my comment earlier, I've never found your posts unapproachable. Despite the fact that you tend to state things like you believe that they're facts, I always put a mental 'my opinion is that' in front of them, which goes a long way towards making them friendlier. *g*)

It's funny that you should mention this, because I've been thinking about the perils inherent in reading or watching only the things that appeal to you. I was watching a rented movie with some friends who had all seen in before, and it was decided by common consent to skip one of the parts in order to get to the 'good part'. I see that a lot, with both books and movie; I do it myself, and why not? What's wrong with returning to the things that you connect with and only reading/watching the other parts once?

Nothing, maybe. But I feel like I'm missing something by doing this, like I'm narrowing my viewpoint, and that, by only reading or seeking out fics or books or movies that I can personally connect to, I'm feeding into a kind of perpetual cycle of self-congratulation - that is, my view of things is natural, and must be, because there it is, repeated in everything I see.

Which is connected to your post in that you're right, I do find pieces of myself in everything I read, but I've found them all before, with the same electric thrill and delighted gasp of realization, and maybe I should stop trying to prove my own existence through other people's fiction. (Not saying, of course, that you are in the same position. I assume you're better off. *g*)

Of course, to set up against that there's the instinctual rebellion you mention above. There are aspects of life and character and behavior that disturb me, and thus don't make for relaxing reading. It would be an effort to force myself into it, like pushing through thick water, and would probably make me feel... tainted? Confused?

Something for me to think about, all the same.

...and about now is where you see why I usually go away to try and organize my thoughts.

Incoherently yours,

Ash

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

Ahahahah maybe you're right, I should try stopping proving my own existence through fiction. 'Cause. Yeah. In your boat-- been there-- done that -.-

And see-- in facfiction-- you can justify that confusion, that taint, see. 'Cause you can say, but see-- so-and-so wouldn't act like that, and you get to reject it with more authority. Which makes any sort of objective "giving things a chance" more difficult. I don't -want- to be narrow-minded and self-obsessed, obviously, but I do have these constants in my perception of these characters, and they ring like alarm bells when something funky starts going on (as I see it).

Like, for instance, I just -can't- believe in a Harry who'd cheat on Draco if they're in a committed relationship. I can handle it in other stories, but in H/D, it just makes no sense to me. In general, I feel like they're writing someone else's story, two characters whose names happen to coincide, and that frustrates me. It throws me out of the story. I don't think -Draco- would cheat on -Harry- either, not -secretly-. I could see how he'd insist on an open relationship & no sentimentality or whatever, but to pretend to be in love and to sleep around? That's so far from 15-year-old Draco as to be some echo of his father, maybe, and I don't want to read about -Lucius-, I want to read about Draco. Y'know?

Maybe fanfiction in general is like... unhealthily prone to reassuring one of things one knew already (one knows the characters, knows the world, knows what one wants to happen in general terms, etcetc). Maybe fanfic is "easy reading" even for escapist literature like fantasy & romance are to start with. Hmmm.

But yeah. Um. You really seem to understand these rambles better than most people, or at least on a personal level :> :> Maybe we just have similar issues :> Heee.
Oh man. I don't mean to state things as fact. It constantly weirds me out that people think of it that way, especially considering how uncertain and tentative I think I am, and how much I contradict & argue with myself all the time. *sigh* Good to know you give me leg room, though :D :D

[ashjay.livejournal.com]

Ah, so you are in the same boat as me! Welcome aboard. I'd say not to rock the boat, but considering both of our personalities... yeah, that'd be a waste of breath. *g*

Oh, interesting! Fanfiction as justification for a thousand personal viewpoints! You're right, characterization, although inherently personal, is often treated as dogmatic. That is to say, the way we view a character is right and... there is no and, because it's *right*. That is the absolute unargueability behind every OOC dispute, isn't it?

And after all, the truth is that nearly anyone can do nearly anything if properly motivated. People have killed who might not have ever killed but for one night or a chain of events or a phrase spoken the wrong way, and people's lives so often take sharp right turns that nobody could have expected - A+ students become drug addicts, Aryan gang members become Buddhists, and so on and so forth.

I wonder, actually, if everybody's nearly perfect certainty that they, and those who agree with them, know the Truth with a capital 'T' means that everybody in the fandom has already extrapolated a whole world, a whole future for thse characters, in their heads. If so, it seems likely that most of these worlds are not those of violent change, and that is made more likely by the inclination of others to take violent change in a fiction as a reason to cry foul.

So you're right, fanfiction may very well be unhealthily prone to this sort of thing. Because people who read fanfiction share two things in common:

1) They can get things, worlds, emotions, from the printed world
2) They can believe in worlds that are not necessarily those of the author

Once you put those two things together with the profound fondness people have for, well, themselves, fandom can become something like that experiment with the monkey. You know the one: put a wire in the monkey's brain near the pleasure centers, put a button in the cage that controls the wire... and the monkey will punch that button until it dies.

So people, maybe, find something in fandom that gives them pleasure and, because fandom is so prolific, can *keep* finding things like that over and over and over again. I have to wonder if the pleasure doesn't become dimmed after a while, like smoking or other drugs - you start and it's bliss, but after a while it becomes something you *do* because you have to, because not doing it is difficult.

(Which would lead to a fun theory on fandom as an erosive force on its adherents' ability to enjoy their own genre... which might tie in nicely to the responses to the last book. Namely, the so often heard: "It felt like reading a fanfic!")

I nearly always understand your rambles- or think I do. *g* We'll see if that's actually true, eh? (We either have similar issues or similar training. I'll plump for both. ;)

Also, I would also have problems with Draco cheating, but I believe it could be done if combined well with a story of alienation between Harry and Draco. Especially if there was some reason for Draco to need to be seen publically with Harry, since otherwise, yes, he would probably just come out with it. It would need to be done carefully, and possibly at length...

At least, in my opinion. *laughs*

See? I do it too.

[yourpoison.livejournal.com]

It seems like some people have the characters live a sort of stenciled-in life in their heads, and some people start from stratch every time they read/write a fanfic and it all depends on how that particular plot works, for them. I wouldn't immediately say there are (just) two kinds of fanfic reader, but-- I dunno. -I- certainly have a pretty good instinct as to where Harry & Draco would probably be going towards... there was even a meme (http://www.livejournal.com/users/reenka/108403.html) about this awhile ago. I mean, I went overboard with that one (I don't actually believe all those things), but still. Yeah. *laughs*

Funny thing is, I do completely believe that people (Draco in particular) could change greatly and unpredictably-- that's, after all, almost requisite to even get H&D together, right. I'm pretty obsessed with the idea of how that works, too-- how do people change, why do people change, etc. How can you even -write- Draco without thinking about that, considering how little of canonical!Draco there is to go around? So it's funny that I'm getting so ornery when it comes to some characterizations, and I think I always -have- been pretty preferential.

But see, even though there's all this range inherent in every human being, there's still a constancy-- something that makes a person that particular individual no matter what. It's like-- you should still be able to recognize them as who they are. That's a balance that fascinates me-- because no, you don't have a blank check. People -are- pretty constant even in their changing. I know that from myself-- people say I'm unpredictable & random & confusing, but to myself I always follow my internal logic & never deviate, really. Even if things -seem- wild and unlikely, I believe they're always still direct consequences of -something- that's inherent within one's character. Maybe it's not apparent to the outside observer, but it has to have been there.

That's where my idea of an emotional range comes from. There's this range of potentiality-- and most people, of course, have no idea as to its true boundaries within themselves -or- others. But it exists. It makes us who we are-- and admittedly it's a fuzzy boundary, but it's still a boundary. People are finite beings, after all.

So, I mean, there -are- valid reasons to argue characterization-- not like it's cast in stone, but still-- there -can- be nonsensical characterizations. Heh. That's what I meant, too-- it's even more complicated 'cause there's actually an excuse to cling to some viewpoints with fanfic. And I'm not even sure what's me being unreasonably vanilla or romantic and what's justifiable all the time ^^;
Have you -read- `Tale of the Shining Prince', btw? If so, what did you think of it? :> hee

And yeah. I think maybe fanfic does have a weird effect on one's perception of everything one reads-- or at least, it can. When -I- read canon, I was perfectly aware of how it was canon. I don't know how anyone could miss it. In fact, I was surprised at how qualitatively different it was from fanfic because JKR followed up so many threads she'd left dangling-- threads which most people forgot about or which had nothing to do with their own fic so they'd just left them unresolved. I was like, whoa, this is a continuous story! And I'd never gotten that with any fanfic. I mean, it was things like Fleur & Bill, y'know? No one bothers with that, but it really added to a sense of continuity for me. I mean, in a way, maybe she's writing fanfics of her own prior canon except with a larger database, but :> Yeah ^^;

I think the only people in fandom who don't have characterization quibbles are either newbies or plebes at this point, ahahahah. um. *coughs*
Also, what kind of training have you had? I'm still in undergrad & have had a sprinkling of random English & philosophy & one linguistics course. And I've read a lot of stuff. Only took po-mo theory this term~:))