~~ don't dominate me plz.
Oct. 7th, 2003 04:27 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaI sit there in my PoMo theory class and immediately apply the ideas to my recent watching of Level C (which is really bad yaoi) and slash-fic. How deeply wrong is that? Sigh. We've gotten to Derrida, who's always appealed to me. Having passed Heiddegger, who's also always appealed to me. Funny thing is, using them as a foundation for a world-view -doesn't- appeal to me. It's like, now they're "canon", and that sucks. But anyway.
Level C sucks greasy monkey balls, man. I shouldn't have spent the... what... 20-or-so hours downloading it on my 56.6 connection, but I was like, boyporn!!1 ...And of course the lesson is obvious: there's porn and then there's porn. I should've learned that trolling ff.net, but I'm just slow like that.
The reason Level C sucks (besides having a really stupid plot, insipid characters, an impossible set-up and kind of icky animation for the uke-- I mean seriously, -girls- don't have those kind of eyelashes, even in anime)... is just how much it buys into the seme/uke thing. I realized that this just illustrates that while I -can- buy into the dom/sub binary opposition (for instance, Heero-as-uke really doesn't work for me), it really is a stupid opposition. I mean... especially in Level C, it's obvious that the uke is basically a girl-- they don't even show a cock. It's like a phantom cock, with shimmery hazy outlines. It's a weepy, clingy, unrealistically girly girl. There could be a drinking game for every time that boy burst into tears, man. Everyone would be very drunk.
I mean, then I realize-- okay, supposedly in "real life", there -is- a division between "givers" and "takers", and then there -are- these girly boys with the make-up and the squealing and the acting like divas. I don't know if it has much to do with their gayness per se, but I dunno. I'm bi and I know nothing, man. Nothing.
Even -if- it's "realistic" to some extent-- I mean, girly girls who want a manly man to dominate them exist, too. Western society makes sure of it, right. Does that make it into something to perpetuate, though?
What my problem is, basically, is taking this question of who has whose cock up whose arse and making it into a question of identity-- of some basic essence of an individual. How backward is that? It's like, now we have feminism so we feel women should be equals to the men they're with, but we feel free to have this ridiculous power imbalance be "okay" between two men? And even if the person in question -wants- that to be their identity-- should the writer buy into this fiction?
Doesn't this assume that identity is static, and one is "born" a dom or a sub, uke or seme, respectively? I mean, you don't need to think long to see that basing your identity around what your cock does is just... problematic. And if it -doesn't- go where it's supposed to go, does this then imply a whole rethinking of who you as a person?
Mostly it's yaoi that really doesn't sit well with me now rather than slash, though slash has its offenders as well. I mean, my -god-, the uke is -tiny- compared to the seme. Tiny. And what the hell is up with the very -concept- of there being a "dominant partner" in a relationship? It's like... okay, this is reminding me of a pack of wolves now, not how people should be. Although maybe they are that way.
It seems to me that there's something problematic about the idea of "submission" as far as it relates to identity. It's almost like... voluntary indentured servitude, then. As in, "okay, I'll be your bitch." Maybe that's why I prefer writing about boys, and bi boys at that. I like to be as far away from adult gender-roles as possible, man. Boys are much more likely to be in a relationship with equals, if they're friends or rivals; their (sexual) identity more likely to be in flux.
It's funny, because I've seen people say they write slash because it messes with gender-roles and such (well, Ivy, but others too). And then you notice that while we live in an age where gender-roles are routinely challenged between the opposite sexes, no one goes around noticing what same-sex pairings are acting like, so basically you can get away pasting old, traditionalist morality onto these couples (marriage and mpreg are just the more extreme examples-- you also have the sheer stubbornness of some people as to who does the fucking and who gets fucked). I mean, if you consider yourself a modern person, you won't go around saying, 'of course, the woman has to be on the bottom', would you. Not any more than you'd go around saying, 'not to mention that the man of course dominates in the bedroom in every other way, as well'.
Thinking of anime again, I'm trying to remember the straight smut I've seen. Not a lot of material here, mind you, but... most definitely, there's a much, much greater range of behavior there, and I wouldn't say that most m/f anime couples have a dominant male and a submissive female by -far-. In fact, some of my most favorite couples-- in anime and other pop culture-- have a dominant female instead (Hermione, Buffy, Tsukushi, Sana even, heh). I even have a soft spot for Lily/James as seen in Book 5 -because- Lily is so much more together than James. You can tell he's not gonna be bossing her around anytime soon. So at least we usually have a plucky female. Gotta love that word: plucky. Doesn't it make us females feel ever so... empowered? Look, we're plucky. We can cut the guy down to size. Woo for female powah! etc.
I think it's interesting to note that in slash and yaoi it's almost like there's a re-invention of gender-roles; not only that, outdated ones. People assume (slashfic writers, anyway) that just because it's two males, it's -okay- if you separate them into "types", because maybe it's clear that they have some sort of intrinsic equality just because they're both the same gender? As if that gave servants equality. As if that ever gave anyone equality, really.
What really matters often enough, I think, isn't gender but status. I mean, gender will often open the door (as in, hey, we're all men here), but it's up to the person's particular life circumstances to assure their acceptance as equals. Like... one wonders if being a Malfoy means accepting Weasleys or women more. Male Muggle-borns or women. Male Gryffindors or female Slytherins, and so on.
There's a thin line between "well, it's more in character for Harry to not allow himself to be vulnerable enough to Malfoy to be fucked up the arse" and "well, there's always gotta be a bottom, and that's like the `girl', you know". Both are problematic, really, from a theoretical perspective. Basically, what bothers me is the linkage between sexual practices and emotional dispositions and general couple behavior. What do sexual positions have to do with what kind of person you are, really? At first glance, nothing, unless you -make- them be connected. Say, you suppose someone needs/wants power and control. You assume they're always going to be going after this control, and if they don't get it, they'd leave...? And then, just to muddle things, you have the idea that it's really the -bottom- who's in control, 'cause the top has to make sure the bottom is enjoying themselves or something, but this gets into the BDSM aspect of things, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
It's not so much that rigid sexual/gender roles are -unrealistic-, as I said; merely that it seems like an echo of more sinister old ideals of separation between the sexes.
My own favorite pairings are always about a power-exchange, a flux of some sort, something unsettled and always up for grabs. That's the most interesting scenario as I see it. Obviously not everyone has to see it that way, but I -do- think that writing a character as "dominant" and another as "submissive" is one step down the "slippery slope" (and how annoying is -that- phrase) towards crying!uke and self-confident!seme.
I do think that one character will usually be best characterized as more "hung up on" power, more likely to be the aggressor, and that's fine. There are more aggressive and less aggressive people, okay. But this almost invites the concept of "winners" and "losers" into the bedroom, which is just... unsavory to me. The question is, where does it stop? Where is it 'right' to stop with the 'dom' aspect of a character...? Do you have the other character go down on one knee and expose their throat? Do you have them whine and go belly-up? I mean, is that really so far-fetched, considering some of the fic out there?
Anyway, I've run out of steam. Mostly-- Level C is bad, don't watch it. Seme/uke-ness annoys me. If I watched too much yaoi (which I don't, I watch series that get fanficced into yaoi), I'd probably give up and watch het again, with its saner ideas about sex. Which would be a tragedy, wouldn't it~:)
EDIT - On the other hand... mmmmm, there's always QAF US. Briiiiian.... Justinnnn..... Dude. That totally works for me. I'm a complete hypocrite. Either that or it really -is- all about the particular chemistry of any two people having to convince you of whatever the dynamic is.
Level C sucks greasy monkey balls, man. I shouldn't have spent the... what... 20-or-so hours downloading it on my 56.6 connection, but I was like, boyporn!!1 ...And of course the lesson is obvious: there's porn and then there's porn. I should've learned that trolling ff.net, but I'm just slow like that.
The reason Level C sucks (besides having a really stupid plot, insipid characters, an impossible set-up and kind of icky animation for the uke-- I mean seriously, -girls- don't have those kind of eyelashes, even in anime)... is just how much it buys into the seme/uke thing. I realized that this just illustrates that while I -can- buy into the dom/sub binary opposition (for instance, Heero-as-uke really doesn't work for me), it really is a stupid opposition. I mean... especially in Level C, it's obvious that the uke is basically a girl-- they don't even show a cock. It's like a phantom cock, with shimmery hazy outlines. It's a weepy, clingy, unrealistically girly girl. There could be a drinking game for every time that boy burst into tears, man. Everyone would be very drunk.
I mean, then I realize-- okay, supposedly in "real life", there -is- a division between "givers" and "takers", and then there -are- these girly boys with the make-up and the squealing and the acting like divas. I don't know if it has much to do with their gayness per se, but I dunno. I'm bi and I know nothing, man. Nothing.
Even -if- it's "realistic" to some extent-- I mean, girly girls who want a manly man to dominate them exist, too. Western society makes sure of it, right. Does that make it into something to perpetuate, though?
What my problem is, basically, is taking this question of who has whose cock up whose arse and making it into a question of identity-- of some basic essence of an individual. How backward is that? It's like, now we have feminism so we feel women should be equals to the men they're with, but we feel free to have this ridiculous power imbalance be "okay" between two men? And even if the person in question -wants- that to be their identity-- should the writer buy into this fiction?
Doesn't this assume that identity is static, and one is "born" a dom or a sub, uke or seme, respectively? I mean, you don't need to think long to see that basing your identity around what your cock does is just... problematic. And if it -doesn't- go where it's supposed to go, does this then imply a whole rethinking of who you as a person?
Mostly it's yaoi that really doesn't sit well with me now rather than slash, though slash has its offenders as well. I mean, my -god-, the uke is -tiny- compared to the seme. Tiny. And what the hell is up with the very -concept- of there being a "dominant partner" in a relationship? It's like... okay, this is reminding me of a pack of wolves now, not how people should be. Although maybe they are that way.
It seems to me that there's something problematic about the idea of "submission" as far as it relates to identity. It's almost like... voluntary indentured servitude, then. As in, "okay, I'll be your bitch." Maybe that's why I prefer writing about boys, and bi boys at that. I like to be as far away from adult gender-roles as possible, man. Boys are much more likely to be in a relationship with equals, if they're friends or rivals; their (sexual) identity more likely to be in flux.
It's funny, because I've seen people say they write slash because it messes with gender-roles and such (well, Ivy, but others too). And then you notice that while we live in an age where gender-roles are routinely challenged between the opposite sexes, no one goes around noticing what same-sex pairings are acting like, so basically you can get away pasting old, traditionalist morality onto these couples (marriage and mpreg are just the more extreme examples-- you also have the sheer stubbornness of some people as to who does the fucking and who gets fucked). I mean, if you consider yourself a modern person, you won't go around saying, 'of course, the woman has to be on the bottom', would you. Not any more than you'd go around saying, 'not to mention that the man of course dominates in the bedroom in every other way, as well'.
Thinking of anime again, I'm trying to remember the straight smut I've seen. Not a lot of material here, mind you, but... most definitely, there's a much, much greater range of behavior there, and I wouldn't say that most m/f anime couples have a dominant male and a submissive female by -far-. In fact, some of my most favorite couples-- in anime and other pop culture-- have a dominant female instead (Hermione, Buffy, Tsukushi, Sana even, heh). I even have a soft spot for Lily/James as seen in Book 5 -because- Lily is so much more together than James. You can tell he's not gonna be bossing her around anytime soon. So at least we usually have a plucky female. Gotta love that word: plucky. Doesn't it make us females feel ever so... empowered? Look, we're plucky. We can cut the guy down to size. Woo for female powah! etc.
I think it's interesting to note that in slash and yaoi it's almost like there's a re-invention of gender-roles; not only that, outdated ones. People assume (slashfic writers, anyway) that just because it's two males, it's -okay- if you separate them into "types", because maybe it's clear that they have some sort of intrinsic equality just because they're both the same gender? As if that gave servants equality. As if that ever gave anyone equality, really.
What really matters often enough, I think, isn't gender but status. I mean, gender will often open the door (as in, hey, we're all men here), but it's up to the person's particular life circumstances to assure their acceptance as equals. Like... one wonders if being a Malfoy means accepting Weasleys or women more. Male Muggle-borns or women. Male Gryffindors or female Slytherins, and so on.
There's a thin line between "well, it's more in character for Harry to not allow himself to be vulnerable enough to Malfoy to be fucked up the arse" and "well, there's always gotta be a bottom, and that's like the `girl', you know". Both are problematic, really, from a theoretical perspective. Basically, what bothers me is the linkage between sexual practices and emotional dispositions and general couple behavior. What do sexual positions have to do with what kind of person you are, really? At first glance, nothing, unless you -make- them be connected. Say, you suppose someone needs/wants power and control. You assume they're always going to be going after this control, and if they don't get it, they'd leave...? And then, just to muddle things, you have the idea that it's really the -bottom- who's in control, 'cause the top has to make sure the bottom is enjoying themselves or something, but this gets into the BDSM aspect of things, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish.
It's not so much that rigid sexual/gender roles are -unrealistic-, as I said; merely that it seems like an echo of more sinister old ideals of separation between the sexes.
My own favorite pairings are always about a power-exchange, a flux of some sort, something unsettled and always up for grabs. That's the most interesting scenario as I see it. Obviously not everyone has to see it that way, but I -do- think that writing a character as "dominant" and another as "submissive" is one step down the "slippery slope" (and how annoying is -that- phrase) towards crying!uke and self-confident!seme.
I do think that one character will usually be best characterized as more "hung up on" power, more likely to be the aggressor, and that's fine. There are more aggressive and less aggressive people, okay. But this almost invites the concept of "winners" and "losers" into the bedroom, which is just... unsavory to me. The question is, where does it stop? Where is it 'right' to stop with the 'dom' aspect of a character...? Do you have the other character go down on one knee and expose their throat? Do you have them whine and go belly-up? I mean, is that really so far-fetched, considering some of the fic out there?
Anyway, I've run out of steam. Mostly-- Level C is bad, don't watch it. Seme/uke-ness annoys me. If I watched too much yaoi (which I don't, I watch series that get fanficced into yaoi), I'd probably give up and watch het again, with its saner ideas about sex. Which would be a tragedy, wouldn't it~:)
EDIT - On the other hand... mmmmm, there's always QAF US. Briiiiian.... Justinnnn..... Dude. That totally works for me. I'm a complete hypocrite. Either that or it really -is- all about the particular chemistry of any two people having to convince you of whatever the dynamic is.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 04:01 pm (UTC)That said, I think that it was helpful to me to place yaoi (and some same-sex anime) within the cultural context of Japanese literature itself. Seen from that perspective, the uke/seme thing makes sense historically (at least to me ::g::) and though I don't share the kink, I find it easier to ignore/not get annoyed when I read yaoi now that I have a bit of a grasp on how it arose.
A wonderful book that helped along my understanding is Partings At Dawn: An Anthology of Japanese Gay Literature, edited by Stephen D. Miller. (Available from Amazon.com) It starts with lit from the 12th century and moves forward. The nice bit about the book is that it intersperses commentary about the historical setting of each of the literature examples, with particular attention to the societal expectations of m/m and m/f friendships and sexual relationships. All in all, a very interesting read.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 04:48 pm (UTC)Amazing that they -have- a Gay Literature. Does the West have it before this past century?
Although slash does it too, with some people's preferences in only writing a certain character as 'bottom' (or top), meaning 'girly' or 'manly'.
Maybe it's not so surprising, anyway. Gender-roles are notoriously hard-wired ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 06:23 pm (UTC)To be fair, I think his title is a bit misleading. Although there were certainly m/m relationships in 12th century Japan, neither man would consider himself "gay" by modern standards. Sexual identity just wasn't thought of in the same way (think more Ancient Greece/Rome in terms of m/m).
Re. the West...I suspect that the general invisibility of societally acceptable m/m sexual relationships in the West is partly why it's more difficult to find books on the subject. ::g:: Although there is another excellent book called Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition: English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth Century Caribbean, by B. R. Burg (also available from Amazon.com) that addresses the m/m sexual relationships of pirates--it's more anthropological in nature...no juicy stories there! But also a very good read.
Although slash does it too, with some people's preferences in only writing a certain character as 'bottom' (or top), meaning 'girly' or 'manly'.
I agree, though it is often looked upon as "Ewwww! Out of Character!!!" in slash, and yet in (a lot of) yaoi, it's an expected trope that sometimes garners a "How come X and Y both top each other in this fic? X should *always* be the bottom!" reaction.
I remember first encountering the phenom. in the (rather traditional) Highlander fandom. There were a few writers from a yaoi background who clearly cast Duncan and Methos in roles of uke/seme in their fiction right down to using the rape/semi-con scenarios that often show up in yaoi. The fandom literally went out for their blood, flaming them up one side and down the other, calling their stories trash, horridly out of character, etc. Meanwhile, those authors were completely perplexed, had no clue what the fuss was all about, since they were well-formed stories in the yaoi tradition.
A good example of what happens when very different story-telling and characterization styles clash. ::veg::
Thinking about it, the seme/uke relationship isn't all that different from the traditional het romances that lined the shelves in bookstores until people like Diana Gabaldon (sp?) came along and mixed things up.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 08:47 pm (UTC)See, in the shounen-ai I've seen (not a lot... but even Gravitation is shounen-ai, really), there's some greater protectiveness-and-iciness in one of the boys, but it's nothing -drastic-, and even in Gravi no one -cried- as far as I remember. In Song, I think it was even a mutual sort of seduction (mmmmmmm). And in `Tokyo Babylon', they were definitely equally matched in power. Sigh.
So it's like... the sex that ruins it? Grr.
I think het fiction has a long tradition of being... er.. multifarious, depending on what you're looking at. Plus I conveniently forget the really traditionalist fic, for some reason (maybe because it all blends together?)
I've seen a lot of anime and I've never felt the urge to write... well... fanfic for it, but also to write in any particular style. I'm just not fangirl enough, I guess~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 05:17 pm (UTC)(and I'm pretty sure that's not quite what you're talking about, but I feel chatty tonight and just had to comment on such a long insightful post!)
I wanna hear more about derrida and heidegger and slash!!! [as for slash and pomo...well, it's not like I'm writing a paper on that or anything :-) ] so, is it zeitgeist or are we sharing a brain *bg*
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 06:08 pm (UTC)One thing that I've noticed in the HP fandom is that there is a strong influence (esp. on ff.net) of yaoi-styled story telling and "gender" roles which I suspect feeds off of the ostensibly unequal age/power dynamic between Harry and Severus. So, I think that you have to take that influence into account when asking the question "Why HP/SS?"
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 05:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 07:49 pm (UTC)Though that got a lot more steam after OoTP. Interestingly, I haven't actually -seen- a huge influx of either new H/D or new H/S fans into the fandom after the book, though of course what do -I- know. Still.
Shifting is one thing... a lot of fics do -not- have what I'd consider a shifting power dynamic-- at least H/D. Half the time, at -least-, the writer just picks a dominant partner (ie, the one who's more in control of their emotions, the lover and the beloved) and goes with that. Usually tied to POV.
The only H/S I read is smut, so that probably skews my ideas of the pairing all to hell. Mostly Seeker and Predatrix. *laughs*
I think one of the things that turns me off H/S as a serious pairing (besides really not digging the teacher/student age-gap thing and also thinking Sev really needs someone... er... more sensitive than Harry unlike Malfoy who just needs his arse kicked) is that very power differential. It's always going to be there.
By writing slash you're kind of fudging it, just as I think inventing a seme/uke-like dynamic between normal English boys would be fudging it the other way. Snape in particular is obsessed with the power he's able to wield over those in his domain (ie, Potions, Slytherin). He giveth and he taketh away. While you -could- say that Harry's strong enough, has his own cojones, etc... my own experience with romantic entanglement with those who've had more innate life-experience than me has been... er... counteractive to any sort of romanticism.
Even if it's not hanging over the relationship -blatantly-, it's always in the background. In the end, it doesn't matter how powerful Harry -is-, it only matters what Snape's -opinion- of that power is. And if you have a lot at stake in believing you have the power, you're going to clutch it to you no matter what. I mean, you could say part of the reason Snape resents Harry is because he's jealous, so that doesn't work for me.
Sometimes there -are- power differentials and there's little you can do about them. On the other hand, inventing them out of nothing seems counter-productive.
For instance, Draco also has a lot less power than Harry, but it's not a Harry/Snape-type situation because both of them (until OoTP anyway) do believe they're competitors in the same field. They believe themselves roughly equal at least at -something-, which allows the possible relationship in my mind. But that's just my H/D mumblings, nevermind. Heh.
As far as Derrida, I was mostly thinking about identity and the idea of identity being a fiction, and the structuralists thinking of it as "static", something that's tied to space and time, future and past. There's this determinism going on in terms of the characterization of Draco in particular (ie, can he be redeemed) and the "slashability" of certain characters-- ie, they'll always hate each other, it'll never work, never change.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 07:50 pm (UTC)In terms of slash....
I think this applies to the whole.... shift from straight-to-gay, the basic challenging of one's identity in undergoing the transformation inherent in "suddenly" liking ...what? Boys? This particular boy?
In my mind, there's also a sort of timelessness about love as conceived by some slashers. Like-- identity doesn't matter, past doesn't matter, only the potential matters. Also the way that realizing this "hidden passion" seems to reveal a deeper truth. Like, all these stories -are- dealing with "truth", but in a weird way. I mean, a lot of them are passing it off as sexual orientation but really often enough it goes deeper than that. It's like, you have to discard a significant portion of what you thought you knew in order to admit to this new reality.
Or maybe I'm just on crack ^^;
hee.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 06:09 pm (UTC)But what you said triggered my remembering some debates on prospect-l (theoretical TS discussion list) about a trend here to have them reincarnated or to have them meet as young people and therefore their entire lives be predestined (if you haven't read any TS but would be interested, ces's The Fire was the one that I remember starting much of that...an incredibly unsettling and powerful story!!!)
As for the coming out aspect...I know it's a vital part in many fandoms [for slash in general and for the teenage fandoms (SV, HP, popslash, BtVS,..) in particular]...but at the same time I also get kind of bored with that particular angsting scenario...
And I still have no idea whether we're even in the neighborhood of each other's ideas :-)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 05:57 pm (UTC)I got to think a bit more about your claim that the power remains the same; I'm not sure that's the case.
As for H/D...Though I suppose it's a bit ridiculous that there's as much power-play as there is in H/D I'm not sure I get you here completely? You think H/D has more of a reason for power play???
As for the Derrida...you'd suggest that fanfic is inherently anti-pomo??? Don't do that to me!!!! *bg*
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 06:20 pm (UTC)I remember having crushes on distant, forbidding teachers. Having a successful relationship seems like one of those Big Mistakes you make as a young English major in college. Heh. It makes me think of 70s liberal arts colleges and men with so many complexes they'd give a psychiatrist one.
So in a way, I'm just justifying why it doesn't work for -me-, not really pretending I can see the pairing --or Snape-- in any sort of objective light. Though honestly, neither H/S nor H/D would "stand up" to objective scrutiny if you're looking for plausibility, which most of us aren't, so it doesn't matter. I like the way Harry is with Snape. It doesn't help that I don't find Snape sexy (though I find Alan Rickman a god, of course, ahahah). It's too seme/uke-ish in a way, too. I dunno, it makes me feel weird as a serious concept, if only because I can't see them riding off into the sunset together and I'm obviously the biggest sap ever.
And yeah, I -can- see H/D riding into the sunset. I think it's just by force of (misdirected) will, though ~:)
Anyway, I didn't mean H&D have more of a power-play, I was just saying it's weird that actually, H&D fics have just as -much- of a focus on unequal/weird power dynamics as H/S, just in a different way-- their ur-characterizations differ. But I guess it's -not- weird, since of course you're always going to have power-play with people who don't sit well with you and you compete with. Duh.
Partly, it's that ideally, I want Harry & Draco to be complementary-- partners somehow. Whereas... I dunno. I think of Snape as too enclosed, too not wanting to relinquish control. He has this area of expertise, whereas Harry & Draco are still finding theirs.
But I understand why the older readers would like it more. Heh. But it's true! I mean, in my not-so-official estimate, there are definitely a lot more over-25 H/S fans than say, under-18, no. The romantic ideals at work are pretty different~:)
Nah, I meant that fanfic-- since it -does- play with identity (OOCness, yes, but also just sheer tinkering) is inherently pomo~:) Because there's this sense of fluidity that's possible in the best of fic, I think. Mind you, a lot of this is just stuff I thought while listening to my professor rant on about our readings as I sat in class, nothing I thought while reading the actual texts. So naturally it's all rather loose and more stuff I was inspired to ponder semi-fleetingly rather than like... a thesis~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 06:59 pm (UTC)So being back in these tight cliques...I don't think I've really seen that since my first fandom BtVS (just about anything in between that I read was kind of default OTP...I mean, if there are only two central characters who have 95% of the screen time, it's pretty hard to ship much else :-)
As for the H/D, H/R comparison...no! I see the dynamics as fundamentally different...kaiz at some point said that friendship shipping is a kink (and that explained so much to me :-)...for me that's an entirely different ballgame to the enemy-turned-lover, thin line approach...
As for H/S personally...I totally started with H/D and it's still something I can see more than anything (well, not more than Ron but I find that pairing so very very boring!). I read all the good and long ones but was overall somewhat disenchanted with the fandom at large...many of these heavily recced stories left me very underwhelmed...and then ff.net...omg! and the wip's
So I was just about ready to call it quits when I read a few H/S fics...I never saw (nor do I now see) the attraction in the pairing...but i liked the fic...I mean, I'm a slasher at heart...I started reading popslash and couldn't name more than one boybander each...and *then* I began to become a source fan...even in hp I didn't read books 3-5 until after I had a share amount of fics read... (in fact, just about every fandom I've been in I either don't particularly enjoy the source text or came to it via the fic)
So I'm fascinated with the way Snape is written and re-envisioned by the Snape writers...I care for the fannish Snapes, canonical or not much more than for Rowlings' (and you can now unfriend me and bar me from any hp fannishness :-)
As for the age thing...for me it's a lot more about the writing than it is about Snape's age...I mean, Justin's now 22 which means most stories have him underage...Clark's still in high school...maybe the more mature writers are drawn to Snape b/c his issues are more complex? And yes, the romantic first love true forever is something the 25+ crowd (and gee do you draw that line low...) has been there done that, I suppose...
Which doesn't mean it's not an appealing fiction! As with the predetermination and the teacher/student fic it may be the very thing I doubt in RL that appeals in fanfic...
As for pomo...OK, we *are* on the same wave length (if you didn't see it, I am right now revising an entire paper on the postmodernism of fanfic and rps in particular :-)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 08:11 pm (UTC)Funny, I ship friends half the time, really-- well, Mulder & Scully and stuff. There's always Mulder and Scully~:) I think they confuse me, 'cause I tend to be all about the platonic lurve between most friends. It's more intense that way, somehow.
I actually didn't read the books for like... a year. I was that dissatisfied with JKR's writing. Back in 2000, I picked up the first book and was so horrified and disgusted at the 10+ pages about the Dursleys, I asked my then-bf to shoot me if I ever do wind up reading them.
Heh. Even now, sometimes I question the tastes of everyone who's mad about the books and talks about how genius they are. Even though I'm sort of crazy about the last two. Mmmm, angst.
I was pretty interested in Snape during the Snape panel at Nimbus. For some reason it was like a lightbulb went on in my head and I was all, "Oh! Snape! His past! Huh!"
So now I'm all about the canon Snape. This also has to do with the fact that I've never read any fanon Snape, really, since I only read H/D and H/S smut and some R/S. Heh. Which sounds so sad and limited of me. I do branch out into Tom/Hagrid (well, there was a brief period where friends of mine were writing it... gah... so good, strangely enough) and some femmeslash....
I'm wary of fanon Snape and his non-greasy hair and his sexiness. I dunno why it made sense to me immediately to see Draco as brilliantly blond (I used to write odes to his hair)and sex-goddy but not Snape. I read romantic!Snape (vs sexual-predator!Snape... mmmmm, Predatrix) and cringe. God, it's just so pathetic imagining him in love with Harry. And then there's "Oh Professor, I've had a crush on you ever since sixth year!". Ack. Ack. Ack. Scrub my brain now.
Last H/S fic I read was Predatrix, I think, with the snake!Snape (or was it Predatrix? Not sure), with Harry masturbating himself with Snape-as-animagus. Ahahahahah god I love just remembering it. It's all about the sick twisted bend-over-desk-and-say-please-Professor (another memorable H/S with top!Harry).... to me :D
I get burnt out with fandom again and again. I'd prolly have quit awhile ago but I -still- haven't finished all the fics in my head and I haven't finished reading the big wip's I'm addicted to. I keep telling myself I'll leave as soon as I'm "done", heh. I -want- to leave, but then, if it's not one addiction it's another.
I think I just go off in tangents a lot, which sort of muddles everything I say~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 08:36 pm (UTC)And the Harry that works for me with him is also pretty severely screwed up...in a way he must be more mature, older, bond over similar experiences...I mean the only way I can see Harry want and need Snape is in kind of a codependent relationship where noone else can handle Harry, b/c he is so very different and does have experienced things that set him apart tremendously from his friends and agemates...
A really impressive fic that did that for me and I'm not even sure why I like it so much is DragonLight's To Dream These Dreams (http://dragonlight.slashcity.org/darkcaverns/fic/otherfic/dream.htm). Now, I think the end is a bit problematic and if I recall, the long other story I read by this author was fun but not that impressive...but this one really grabbed me. It's really pre-slash at most, so you can read it *g* And it's the most impressive story I've read in a while!
But the stuff you say about H/S and H/D is interesting...could it be narcissism of small differences rather than them being too far apart :-)
hiiii
Date: 2003-10-07 07:50 pm (UTC)um, so... I've missed your thoughtfulness, reena, a lot.
I have to agree with you, yaoi pisses me off a lot because of seme/uke -- I get so frustrated when the uke sits around and cries all the time and clings to the seme, who stoically and masculinely ignores him until he randomly feels like some having some hot, hot sex.
I recently read on a messageboard a girl saying, and I paraphrase, "[character] can't be an uke, he's too manly! I always see the uke as being more of a girl. In yaoi, it's like it's a guy and a girl, only you just conveniently get two dicks."
And I guess if you look at it that way, well, seme/uke makes sense. Only personally, I read male/male fiction because I like male/male, not because I like male/femalewholooksmale.
Besides which, what's with uke = crybaby little whiner = girl? I mean, I guess it's just that in a lot of straight fiction, the girls tend to be more weepy and sentimental than the guys (haha, tend to be? who am I kidding), and so this sort of formulaic relationship is just being layered onto characters of the same sex.
Only this sucks, because it's damned stupid in straight fiction, so why would it ever be anything other than that in gay fiction?
Aaannnnyway, I'm sorry for giving you a heart attack today when I briefly re-activated my lj-account (to check and see what art I had left there before I killed it). I don't know if I'm going to be officially really involved in fandom much. This journal, re: its very creative name, really is a load of crap about My Life, and I don't have a fandom journal as of now.
But nonetheless, I'm awfully glad to be back. I'll pop in on your journal every so often, although please don't feel obligated to friend me because my life is BORING, but... talk to me! langostaburger on aim. :D~ I'll see you around. Much loff. (eddy)
hiiii~!..!!
Date: 2003-10-07 08:11 pm (UTC)*hyperventilates again*
wah! you're! back!
i would totally not care if... a lot of people unfriended me and didn't come back (after an initial period of angst), but i kept thinking "gah. i wish she'd come back" and i dunno -why- exactly, but i know it's (probably) not because you drew harry & draco & popcorn.
though that's always good :D :D
am i "involved in fandom"? ahahah that sounds so official. i just compulsively read fic ^^;
i do have a non-fandom lj (which isn't er... very sekrit -or- very enlightening as i don't really -have- a life) which i can friend you with instead if you like. but! muwahahah you're not getting away -now-! >:D<
yah, man, i didn't know yaoi was like that. oh god, was Level C my first? *laughs*
i've seen shounen-ai before this (like er... X? and ...`please save my earth'? and... er... yami no matsuei? also, omg, how obsessed am i with `song of the wind and trees'?!? and no i don't care that there's seme/uke-ness going on because OMG THE ANGEST!!1 THE PANE!!!)...er.
i dunno, i think there's a lot of m/f modern-woman shoujo out there. but maybe i've forgotten most of 'em. i mean, i don't think of `fushigi yuugi', i think of escaflowne and hana yori dango and omg this is embarrassing... kodocha... *cringes*)
but HEY! sana didn't weep! hee.
<-- dork.
*friends with a vengeance*
heehee :D :D
Re: hiiii~!..!!
Date: 2003-10-07 09:17 pm (UTC)but I have seen Angel Sanctuary, in which, at least up to the point I read in the manga which is like, vaguely over halfway, the two gayest characters are in a very power-structured relationship (the funny thing is that the femmy one is the Way Dominant, though...).
Yaoi and shounen-ai-wise, I've seen Gravitation, which... ahhh.... I don't know. The seme/uke bothered me in that one. Yami no Matsuei as well, but that one is a little more subtextly, I think?
yeah. Angst and Pain make up for a lot of less than ideal things. :)
and. yes. *loffffsss and also friends with a vengeance*
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 11:40 pm (UTC)I'm not a big yaoi fan, but yaoi was initiated by women and essentially took off because women could feel safe identifying with a feminine character, but at the same time were intrigued at the concept of a male/male relationship and the freedom from traditional sexuality that it entailed. Er, I think so. And of course there's the SQUEE! factor when they do get together, against all traditional norms. It's probably why they have the Misty Cock of Mount Erection - actual physical depiction would trivialize the SQUEE SO ROMANTIC TRUE LUVV factor.
More with the blabbering: B/J isn't an example of a standardized dom/sub relationship. Justin one-ups Brian a helluva lot (S3 the "have some balls" kiss?), and in no way actually allows himself to be led by Brian.
I don't think being a dom or sub in bed necessarily entails how you act with your lover or partner BUT OF COURSE I HAVE NEVER KNOWN. *whistles* It's probably just people being lazy and using a standard for slash by letting one be the girl and the other a guy - way easier than figuring out the complicated sexual dynamics between two guys. Which is why I've always liked those kind of complicated fics better. <3
no subject
Date: 2003-10-07 11:57 pm (UTC)*cracks up for a good 3 minutes straight*
omg, that is so fitting. oh, and the sheer amusement factor of imagining some normal anime guys with misty cocks, man. oh, i am dead. *is laughing entirely too much; possibly hysterical*
like. misty-cock!akira. there's just something about that :D
better than hagrid in a dress~:))
i still and always will really really dig `song of the wind and trees'. no misty cocks. and. angst. omg. the angst.
also like bronze, also 'cause of the angst. clearly there is something wrong with me~:))
it's funny to think of traditional norms or any of that in relation to `level c', which seems to occur in a strange alternate universe where twins abound and boys cry -every 10 seconds-. i wonder if i would've been more or less offended if he was a girl. ahahahah. i don't think i've ever seen so much going down on a girl in any anime, though. *laughs*
i think b/j was dom/subbish for awhile but has recovered :D
it's certainly moreso than... er. oh well, there's nothing to compare it to >:D
oops!
i dislike the idea that one always doing the same old same old in bed, too, but like. i have never known either :D :D
although if i was a guy, i'd go out and do some research as soon as possible. although this is how people get venereal diseases, i guess ^^;;
interestingly enough, slash written by boys doesn't seem that much more insightful to me. i mean, there's aidan lynch and ... well we won't go into the plebes ><
but mostly i meant that brian almost always tops.
i mean. you get the feeling the ben always tops michael too, though i don't wanna think about that since b/m nekkid really squicks me. eeeeek michael. *shudder!*
hee. what i really wanna see is like... believable hp normal-homosexual fic where they cruise and have meaningless sex in "certain bathrooms" and like... you go to that certain bathroom on that certain day to get laid, and it's all anonymous and in the dark and then you're like... OMG, WHAT ARE -YOU- DOING HERE [insert-character-of-choice-here]?!?
heee. harry, having an obvious case of sexual confusion if i ever saw one, definitely needs the Gay Bathroom of Lurve :D :D
<3 heeee
no subject
Date: 2003-10-09 09:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-10-09 09:58 pm (UTC)so yea, oh yea, montgomery. someone should write that. who isn't me, 'cause i have a million-and-one writing projects o_0
*hinthint* ;))
a quickie with "that certain gender", no less :D :D ahahaha. there's -got- to be a "gay trade" in hogwarts... not that i know that much (not enough!!) about english boarding schools, still. you know there are all these seventh-years arranging the bathroom to be free for traffic at certain times, ahahaha. for a certain fee :D :D oh god. the more plebey the idea, the more i'm excited, obviously~:)
it's the best start to h/d EVER :D :D :D
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 09:23 am (UTC)Definitely it's always seemed that for the most part boys would switch back and forth. Seems odd that a couple wouldn't take advantage of that in a homosexual relationship. In a fic I tend to like the positions to be suggested by whatever emotional content there is to a situation.
With H/D, though, you do tend to get a lot of people seeing one as the top. If it's fanon Draco he's top and if he's canon he's bottom, really! My first instinct (though as I said this changes depending on the context) is usually that a canon based Draco would be the bottom. This must have something to do with his personality but I'd hate to think it *was* his personality. It's more like, for me, there's a subtext to his character that just seems to say FUCK ME!!! to Harry all the time. If you look at his manner, for instance, he almost always puts himself in the passive position. He'll do something to get Harry to notice him, but then once he does he hits a pose where he's lolling against a tree or something with that "come and get me" attitude.
It seems like it's only at the end of OotP that Draco is reduced to having to take out his wand first and even then it's like a last resort, and even then Harry's quicker. His impulse upon seeing Harry is to stop and stare, not to do something to him--which is exactly what Harry's impulse usually is towards Draco. He's uncomfortable, it seems to me, being in the position of the avenger. Harry, by contrast, is usually either holding himself back or leaping on Draco as the person "doing to" instead of "being done to." I do see that as translating to the bedroom, I guess. I really can't imagine a canon based Draco fucking Harry for the first time. Their dynamic just seems to imply that Draco would be provacative and get Harry to do something to him. He just seems to want attention from Harry more than want to do something to Harry, and that translates into him wanting to be on the receiving end. Later on, though, I'd imagine there would be times when they would switch, even if they took the original position more often.
I guess part of it depends on how you see them interacting in canon. If you see Draco as the "winner" each time he makes Harry lose control you might go more for the fanon variation. If you see Draco as craving that loss of control on Harry's part for himself he's more of a bottom, maybe?
Then too maybe people are too quick to assign the positions as dominating or not. It doesn't have to be about control of the other person, after all. Perhaps a character feels more freedom when they are on the bottom or top, or their bodies are just made in such a way that they find one position more pleasurable or whatever. One of the things I like about slash is how it takes intense m/m relationships and explores them through this particular language, so I hate to see everything reduced to one dynamic.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 11:26 am (UTC)no, really. i was going to like... write something angsty and... angsty, about a girl standing on a bridge thinking of jumping and how clear the water is. and then i'm like, OMG DRACO'S STANCE IS SAYING FUCK ME!!1
hee.
ehehe "a subtext to his character". gotta love that. his whole -being- is screaming to be fucked. oh boy. man, he'd probably be really pissed off at that assessment. imagine. are there people like that, who have this whole intense focus on this one person that they don't even know they want "that way", for years? it makes my head spin. and of course i dig it, the whole "why draco is a big nelly bottom" thing, though you articulated things i wasn't so certain about the particulars of, before.
it's just very strange that one can -have- a dominant vibe that translates so directly into sexual practices. i mean.... i've never had a relationship where i knew exactly what my place in the scheme of things was. isn't it a mood thing? i can see how he's taunting harry and i can see how canon!draco is always getting harry to jump him in the magical/violent way, but.... isn't it awful to think they're somehow fixed in that position like stars or something?
like... yes, a person might feel more freedom on top or bottom, but what if the positional preference changes along with their desire to lose or gain control, or even whim? i mean, it's this staticness of identity, of who you are in relation to a person that bothers me. i mean, definitely, in terms of -first encounters-, i couldn't really see harry being the blushing virgin that lets draco ravish him (i could see it with someone -else- ravishing harry, just not canon!draco). but after the first encounter.... things change at some point, don't they?
and this whole idea of winners and losers... there seems to me there's something not quite right about it. i mean, shouldn't they -both- lose control, ideally? isn't that how it's supposed to be in consensual encounters? i realize i haven't had a lot of experience, but i've never felt that merely getting sexual in your relationship meant suddenly acquiring these definite "roles" as to what is done to whom by whom and how, and this whole power-management system like it's an electrical plant.
i mean, why does one have to have the excuse of body-construction or whatever if one doesn't have to? especially in boys, who're still experimenting and who're still lithe and uncertain as to what they want out of sex or relationships or anything. and especially if they're not even aware of their sexual identity (as harry probably wouldn't be). so where would this structure come from? why is it natural for bisexual/gay males but not bisexual/gay females?
i mean, i do hear about butch/femme separation in gay-female relationships, but here i feel a bit more certain in saying that it's completely unnecessary and silly. i'm bi & i could certainly picture myself with a girl, but i mean... i -really- can't picture us having an "agreement" as to what was "in" and what was "out" as far as sex-life is concerned.
not to mention that if used in the narrowest sense, top/bottom only applies to anal penetration, whereas i dunno if two boys would really go straight to that, and maybe it'd even take 'em awhile-- like, months, even-- and by then their relationship would have changed a bit, wouldn't it. like m/f relationships certainly don't always go straight to penetration.
maybe that's why i'm skittish about writing anal penetration in sex-scenes. i mean, i just mostly write about them having frottage & blow-jobs & hand-jobs, and i assumed that it was because i don't know as much as i should about the mechanics and the whole lube thing is awkward (as in, i can't picture them having any & i've never really written established relationship sex... maybe once). but really, maybe it's also that thing about having to pin down their dynamic into top & bottom. hmmm.
i feel so horribly indulgent thinking about this. sigh.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 11:58 am (UTC)I definitely can't imagine, to use H/D as an example as two "boys we know" that their relationship would stay so static. Maybe... hmmm...maybe the thing is that their relationship has been static for 5 years in canon, looking at it from a slash perspective. For 5 years Draco's been provoking. Harry's lashing out more and more in each book but they're always interupted. (How much slash comes from simply putting one of their encounters in private with no interuptions?) It's just never been able to play out, this scene Draco's stages every single year. The one time we got the Harry-staged scene, in CoS, he and Ron ran away when the polyjuice wore off. That's something that's done a lot in H/D too--the Harry being suspicious, spying and getting caught watching scenario. That too is completely based on their canon dynamic--Harry is embarassed when Draco finds out he is more interested in him than he claims to be. That Draco's provocation DOES have an effect.
Once they were together, though, I can't imagine that Canon!Draco wouldn't be climbing all over Harry wanting to experience everything from all sides. They might retain their original dynamic in some ways. For instance, Draco might just learn more ways to push Harry's buttons and get him to try something new. But once Harry was there I think he'd be happy to then reverse things and let Draco take a turn. We've just not yet seen an example of this yet in canon because it never gets beyond a certain point. Except perhaps in Quidditch: Draco provokes Harry on a broom, inspiring Harry to just climb on and give it a go. From then on they fly together as competitors. Harry has always won the game so far, but it's a close contest. (None of this applies only to penatration, of course. Any encounter could be full of little cat and mouse plays.)
I really can't imagine either of these two excepting a too strictly defined role in their relationship, like with one being the "girl." I do see a different attitude towards authority with the two of them--I think Draco likes an authority he respects while Harry seems to need to be in charge and mistrusts authority. I think it would give Draco satisfaction to prove himself worthy to Harry and it would satisfy Harry to "tame" Draco...but again I don't think that would then tie them into strict roles about who's the daddy. At base I think they'd both need to be equal, defining themselves with relation to each other but not shaping themselves to fit the other.
It's like--really getting into canon here--a lot of people see Draco's handshake on the train as him offering friendship that's really an insult, like he's telling Harry, "I know more than you. You need me. Be one of my followers." I've always thought that was one of Draco's rare moments of social sophistication. That he was acknowledging that Harry deserved respect (both because he was Harry Potter and because he'd already caught his attention in the robe shop) so he presented himself as an equal. He offered his credentials and the advantages of being his friend not just to impress but to make it clear he was worthy of Harry. So where did that tangent take me? Oh yeah--it's a handshake. Draco's not interested in being Harry's follower or his leader, imo, according to that scene. Handshake=partners. Equals. He even feels it's necessary to be formal about it--I can't believe he shakes hands with everyone. Especially not at 11!
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 12:27 pm (UTC)"tame" is an awful word. it makes me want to gnaw at things and fuss. any taming and i get really pissed off, i dunno what it is. there must be a reason i can't really dig harry/snape~:)
you know, in a way, h/s almost reminds me of `jane eyre'. heh. er. tangent.
and yeah, i know it's been static in canon, but as soon as that necessary leap where they actually spend time alone (!! w00t!) happens, all bets are of, right. something shifts. it's like... if (as will probably happen) they never do get that opportunity, we don't have to worry about slash anyway (since really... eh... i don't see harry or draco deciding they want each other without spending more time together first-- they might be primed but they're not... in the know, or something).
yeah, and we definitely see the dynamic almost exactly identically, so hee. it's weird that we still have so much indulging to do. actually, in a way it's more fun to talk about things one agrees about, though on a certain logical level it doesn't make sense to me since i'd think it would be too predictable. but the pleasure of merely going over the things that feel good to think about probably outweights that~:)
but...er... definitely. cat & mouse, give & take. i loved your description of him climbing all over harry, naturally :D :D
yeah, it -is- interesting that draco wants to shake hands. i mean, they're both 11 and it's not that draco's near as formal and aristocratic as fanon paints him... so it's weird that he'd suspended any brattishness at that moment and was trying to be all adult about it. well, as far as that goes. he was still a dork, but he was trying, it seems. draco trying to be impress has always rubbed harry the wrong way-- like in the robe shop, too. hmmm.
it's strange because i don't think i've really seen a fic where they're believably described as equals, if anything probably because so many fics pic either harry or draco's pov, and they see each other with such skewed vision. draco -wants- to be but isn't and harry just doesn't think of it and assumes draco's not worth considering after year 4, anyway.
it's so easy to decide no one's ever done it right, but then i remember that it only seems that way outside of the context of a particular fic. like, i was re-reading bits of `tower with a view', and that's fanon draco all over, but i absolutely adore it. on the other hand, it's as you said-- the context changes my preferences to some extent, simply because my largest desire is for emotional intensity and mutual loss of control rather than for some ideal of believability.
i wonder if draco still secretly respects harry and that's partly why it really upsets him that harry dominates him/frustrates his plans/hurts him. like, i wonder how he'd do with another rival/enemy than harry. would he be as vicious and enraged and so on if it was someone else who put his father in jail? although, i mean, obviously he's obsessed with harry in canon, people just take that for -granted- so much, you know.
this idea of respect is just interesting to consider, since it's an adult sort of concept and draco seems so immature.
i wonder if it's just poor characterization on jkr's part ^^;
i don't think harry would want to dominate anyone permanently, even though he has flashes of aggression and so on. i mean, he'd like to just be able to be impulsive, i imagine, but i think a clingy emotional partner that expects things from him (cho, ahahah) would turn him off.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 12:29 pm (UTC)on the other hand, i can see how he could use someone initiating physical contact, since i dunno... i see him hitting draco but kissing draco is a different sort of thing for a boy as physically distant from people as harry. like... i really really doubt harry will initiate any kisses with anyone in the books, but er... i really hate predicting things ^^;
so while he has the cojones to just bust out with some shocking display, he has a lot of hang-ups, i imagine. while draco might get desperate enough to bite harry or something, though they'd have to be pretty close. i wish i knew more about what exactly draco was doing during their quidditch fight. harry did get hurt somewhat, didn't he? so draco was punching -somewhat-, right? hmm.
but yeah, i can see draco biting at harry's mouth first & then harry one-upping him and biting back harder before he even -thought- about it and then it'd degenerate into growling and pulling hair and they wouldn't even notice who's on top or not 'cause they'd be like... doing things in tandem. i -hope-. i -wish-. :D
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 07:44 pm (UTC)So true. And the thing about kissing is that it's physical but it's not the kind of physical Harry specializes in. It's more the provacative kind of stuff Draco could handle. So I do actually see Draco as being more likely the one to suddenly introduce that. Especially since Draco, in many ways, seems much more connected to his senses and emotions. He seems like the kind of person who would touch and taste things to know them, like he interacts with things physically, even though he's not the one to intiate touch with Harry. (Though perhaps he's aware of just how loaded any touch between them is--I find it interesting that Harry's attack on Draco is just a big ball of fury in my memory, while Draco's fingernails scrabbling at the back of Harry's hand seemed so much more intimate and intense...) Plus Draco seems to have kind of admitted he thinks about Harry a lot so I can see him saying, "Oh for god sakes, don't you get it? Kiss me already!" Then he'd kiss Harry. Harry would blink once or twice and then respond just on instinct, like you said. Then they live happily ever after!
Really I can't imagine Harry being interested in a "tame" Draco if such a thing were possible which I don't think it is. He might agree to play "Docile Draco" once in a while but he'd never be completely domesticated. If Luicus couldn't do it, I doubt Harry could. I really can see him climbing all over Harry literally. He's such a little animal. Also he's obviously learned not to be clingy. Demanding at times but not clingy, based on the way he seems to be with Lucius.
I just love Draco in those first two scenes with Harry. Such a complete dork but it's not all his fault. A while ago I came across this Tom Felton interview during PS and his opinion as a kid Draco's age upon reading the book scenes was that Draco "wasn't really a bully." He was just "a real snob who thinks he's cool." That's just how he comes across to me there. The day he tries to act mature he ends up inspiring more disdain than ever. Guess it's no wonder he decided to stick with impressions from then on.
It seems like Draco definitely likes to pin everything on Harry no matter who's responsible--another thing they have in common, given Harry's desire to pin everything on Snape in OotP. You do have to wonder if Draco has any other enemies. Is he, in fact, easier to get along with in Slytherin because all his hatred is directed at Harry? Because he's obviously a kid who takes offense and gets angry so has he really been having lots of little feuds with other people he knows? It doesn't seem that way, not that Harry would notice. We've seen lots of scenes of him getting along with people though, and it's not always by dominating the other person. It's kind of funny to imagine Draco as actually being more easy-going with everyone who isn't Potter.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-08 08:25 pm (UTC)I don't think I was being fanon. He -was- cute.
I find weird things cute, though. And then the -movie-. Even -more- cute. Heeeeee. I mean, I totally think he's a horrid brat, really, but it's really easy for me to see him as adorable, just 'cause he's so like the little pissed off elf in `Snow White, Rose Red', y'know? That's such a weird comparison, but it totally fits in my head. Draco-- Filch Jr~:)
Every time you talk about H&D I get seized with the passionate desire to see what it'd be like if you wrote them. I mean... you have such a grasp on them... it just seems like a waste, almost :D :D
I don't know why -I- write them. I mean, it's definitely not because I have "ideas" to spread or something I want to say. Every time I think of writing a "serious" story that would have some Statement about H&D I freeze up. Sometimes I think-- and then no one'll care about my Statement and I'll be lost among all the other zillion forgettable H/D novels, and -then- what. Though of course one writes for oneself, hopefully. I do, I think. I just ...I like playing with them. They like to snog in my head :D :D Even though I keep writing H&D in a gennish manner lately. No snogs in half the major fics I've got going-- major meaning, a fic I'm writing in more than one go. If it's one go, I usually skip straight to the smut~:)
The "don't you get it" scenario has been used a lot, heh. Almost a cliche, even. But I totally buy it. Never goes stale, man.
Sort of like the pushing-him-against-the-wall-and-starting-to-rub thing :D :D
I keep thinking about `Tower With a View' the past few days and how that had some of the perfect H/D conventions that make me grin even now. Even though that was all fanon, it was just... like... in that special little world where Harry & Draco -react- right, even though there isn't necessarily the set-up for it. Somehow it just works because of -course- they're crazy for each other. I think that's my not-so-intellectual side speaking, though. Not that the whole H/D-love in general isn't just a bunch of instincts & hormones & wish-fulfillment anyway ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-10-09 07:17 am (UTC)I think we see that in the way his friends react to him too. C&G's protectiveness when he's been hurt or ferret-ized, Crabbe's smacking the bludger at Harry when he's caught the Snitch in OotP, Pansy's fawning. At other times, though, they treat him like he's the tough one. Seems like they know when to do what. He really is like the pissed off elf in that story!
I also agree it's sort of interesting how H/D and H/S don't overlap. I have a lot of personal reasons for not shipping H/S at all (the main one being, of course, that I just don't see it) but I do think they are about fundamentally different things that don't go together. Snape and Draco may be Harry's main enemies at school but they are incredibly different people despite liking each other. They also both have totally different relationships with Harry.
Isn't it weird how it really does seem (to H/D-ers at least) that H/D could so easily work if you just got over that hurdle? When I read an H/D fic where they're already together I rarely ask myself, "But wait! How did this happen?" because I can just believe it happened somehow. For me, in fact, it sometimes seems almost artificial that they continue to have the relationship they do. It's like I feel they both (not just Draco!) have to work really hard on continuing to hate each other because the hatred is about much more than the actual person. It's not that they both hate each other, they're both kind of terrified at the mere concept of liking the other person, at least on Harry's part. Draco, poor thing, is stuck with the knowledge that he does like Harry on some level. Or that he did like him and was rejected. No wonder he's got to work extra hard to make it clear he hates him now. I can't help it--it's just kind of thrilling to me that at the end of fourth year Draco can say to Harry, "Remember what I said to you that day on the train?" or whatever and know they both know he's referring to a conversation almost 5 years before and 5 train rides ago.
*here my mouth goes dry at the idea of attempting to actually write H/D* How do people do it? This is why good fanfic writers so impress me.:D
no subject
Date: 2003-10-09 10:51 am (UTC)man, you're just brilliant with the monickers~:))
damn, there are just so many reasons to not like lucius/draco, if only because... you know... who shags the idiot son?? ahahah. i think lucius loves him but he doesn't know how to love. draco probably loves/is loved by his mum but his mum seems to have emotional issues as well (just being a black is probably enough to give her those).
i've never thought much about whether i wanted c&g and pansy to be draco's friends. ahahaah, there goes my c&g fic begging to be written, i guess. i did write that draco&pansy recently, and i think i decided pansy is deluded and draco isn't really friends with anyone in the way -they- think he is :/
probably because even though he's open about his emotions, i don't see him as being sincere in terms of conscious vulnerability and sharing things that matter with people, i guess...? not because he doesn't want to but because it probably doesn't occur to him. which doesn't make it a less `real' friendship, but.... i just dunno if i think he's `opened up' to anybody, i guess.
i wonder if draco -is- consciously aware of the fact that he sort of likes harry. hmm. he might have been... but definitely not around end of year five. probably? yeah.
yah, i dunno if i'd write h/d either if i thought about it in serious terms; that's why i was talking about being playful, like you are when you just think about them~:)
i don't think about writing "the" harry&draco fic, or writing "the" harry&draco in my head. but i can just sort of see you writing an h&d draco-centric fic, especially set in canon, maybe.
then again, we all know i'm on crack~:)
at least it's good crack ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-10-10 05:05 pm (UTC)I guess that's part of the appeal of H/D. You somehow get this feeling that both of them could understand each other because they start out thinking the other is a complete jerk and they won't stand for a single thing. They question everything the other person does, so they have to learn to compromise and examine themselves to have even the smallest conversation.
In terms of Draco being aware of liking Harry, I get the feeling he's totally in denial about it now but he can't ever really get away from it. I mean, he hates Harry *now.* Hates how arrogant he is, how he's just a little twerp who gets away with murder and all that, hates all the times he's humiliated him. But I don't think he's ever forgotten that moment where he was left with his hand sticking out. And he can't even convince himself it didn't happen because it happened twice. Harry rejected him for himself in the robe shop and as Draco Malfoy on the train! Harry was able to hurt his feelings once and underneath he knows that must have meant he had feelings to hurt. Unlike Harry who, strangely, hasn't dealt with that kind of thing yet.
Meanwhile, I just had a conversation in my lj about the one L/D I read that I really liked--Passage to Eden. Shagging the Idiot Son indeed!:-)
no subject
Date: 2003-10-10 05:37 pm (UTC)Draco/Lucius is my idea of like...... bleakness. Bleakness and hell. It's abuse, and I hate abuse, and whenever I write abuse I feel dirty and awful but reading it is almost worse, somehow. Then again, there's the fact that if there's any HP character I pretty much -hate- and can't stand thinking too much about it's Lucius. I dunno. I think it's because I've only seen misuse of him for kink or darkness or whatever. No one just seems to think of him as -human-, with dark and light and dork and pathetic-loserness. Because he -is- a pathetic, narrow-minded, loser, moreso than his -son- because he's -good- at it. GAH.
I like Amalin's Lucius, but that's about it. Then again, I like Amalin's everything~:))
I wrote a Narcissa/Lucius (http://www.livejournal.com/users/witchbabie/7396.html#cutid1) once, actually, for her, though it didn't have much Lucius in it. What -was- there was probably waaaay too poetic and OOC, though it was young!Lucius. Sigh.
And yes, one does get the feeling like they'd understand each other, though maybe possibly that's part of believing two people should/are in love~:)
Also. Heyo. Um. So. um. *cringes*
Like.
...
I wrote this..... 17-or-so page fic... it's not one of the two you said you'd beta, but, but!! I actually already have gone over it grammatically/stylistically (though I probably missed things or messed up more things or whatever, I just DON'T CARE anymore 'cause going through my work that closely made me come rather close to screaming, especially since it took like 5+ hours and. I hate that. And stuff. Imagine doing this to a 100-page (or more!!) manuscript. I'D GO INSANE, WOULDN'T I?!?!?! aaaack.
so. beta? me? please? *laughs*
like, partly I just wanna POST it, like RIGHT NOW, so that people can... say something... and I could feel better... or something. But as long as I did -this-, I might as well try to... er... go all the way?
It's not really slash. Not really pre-slash. It's kinda H/D but. Draco's -dying- and they don't really have a conversation in the present, so. Er. But. It's "serious" (not angsty, just serious, meaning I meant it, which I usually don't with my fics, really) so I'm all tearing my hair out and wailing by this point. And it's not even one of my "actually serious-serious" fics which are 30+ pages, you know. WAH.
Siiiiigh.
So. Um. Um.......... Yeah. I don't mean for you to like, go through it with a comb or anything ('CAUSE I DID THAT, AAAACK), just. Tell me...... not-my-own-opinion stuff~:) Like, yeah. Whatever your reaction/feeling about its canonic relevance/characterization/anything else you want is. Eeep?
because I'd send it to
(it has obviously cracked me. NEVER AGAIN.)
and dude, i'm in college. i don't get to say that. AAACK.
anyway. er. if I haven't scared you away (......), what do you say? *cringes*
no subject
Date: 2003-10-11 09:00 pm (UTC)Lol--it's true. It's a relationship I'm interested in in canon, though not in a slash way. There was one night when I made an effort to see if there were any interesting fics but it's mostly Lucius beating the shit out of him. I was amazed to come across Passage to Eden. It's incredibly disturbing, imo, because it's "consensual," at least according to Draco, but really it's incest and abuse. It reminded me a little of Lolita, the way you can get sucked into Humbert's version of events then there will be these little lines that hint at the truth and--ugh. I didn't like the ending to it, but the rest of it totally sucked me in. If we were in Lucius' pov I think he would be very Humbert like--meaning pathetic and a loser because he's doing this to Draco, who's so much better than that. Draco's totally doing all the work for him because he's a kid and loves his father. So wrong. It's not in Lucius' pov, though, so we only see him through Draco who wants to please him.
what do you say? *cringes*
So, like just read it and say what my reaction is in terms of canon and characterization and just what I thought about it in general?
I'll do my best!
no subject
Date: 2003-10-12 03:39 pm (UTC)I mean.... the -shippers-. Why would anyone -ship- this pairing?? *cringes*
But yes. The whole abuse-without-the-abused-knowing-it is a sadly plausible enough scenario. Will look into it~:)
Also, thankees! Have sent you evil-fic-of-doom. Gah. Hate editing. A lot ><;;
no subject
Date: 2003-10-11 11:49 pm (UTC)HAH.
That's perfect.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-11 11:50 pm (UTC)At any rate, I really like this post.