~~baby dandelions. yah, that's it ~:)
Apr. 3rd, 2003 05:52 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkait's spring again, and i found this on ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
found_objects.
my professor says that even though i talk a lot in class, he could never get a sense of me unless he talked to me personally. which i find rather disappointing. but then, it's tempting to just let go, and only think-- i have my connection with the world. i have my love for sky and stream and beauty and poetry, and i don't need all this clutter, all this worrying about others and caring what everyone thinks of me, because in the end it doesn't -do- anything, just sits there, making me feel heavier and heavier.
spring, and i feel lighter. it's too early to really wear just a skirt and a shirt, but i don't care. i'm a little bit cold, but it's alright. sometimes i look at people and i'm pleased to be not alone, and sometimes i just want to walk away, and keep walking. in a strange way, that's a contradiction-- because a part of me wants people to -know- i am a walker, i am walking on the edges of things, through things. i want to be seen and to see, but not necessarily for those things to mix. spring, and spending time typing is seeming like a waste of time. i should curl up somewhere in the sunlight, bring a notebook with me, stay away from the shadows and remember what sunlight on water and rock looks like, because so often, i think that's all i -want- to remember.
in the end, i want writing about love to be like writing about spring-- all about flowing and realizing the bright edges of things, the silver glints in the shadows. i think at some point, i feel if i keep doing things exactly the same way, my mind would congeal into something harsh and insular, disconnected from itself, even. there's a sense of passing, right now. like things are passing, and i'm letting them.
if i just keep reccing things and talking about fanfic, i think i might curl up and dry out. its source-- the source of story-- isn't just within other stories, other people. to me, anyway. a large part of it is within nature, the way the sun strikes the clouds, the way the wind feels against my face. that's also a story, also something i find essential. so, i mean-- kassie wrote fic, and aja wrote fic, and... i think i may start just noting it down on my recs page or something. i'm tired and rejuvenated at the same time. it's a weird sensation.
april makes me think of colors, and warm green and red and yellow, and dragonflies. dragonflies are particularly interesting, i think. their iridescence, their frequent location at overgrown ponds, near reeds and willows and....
the time is getting closer. the time of fireflies, stories in the warm evenings, secret smiles, softened earth. when i was little, i wanted to be someone else-- i wanted to have wings and secrets and silver hair. i wanted everything to be magical, and love was just as magical as anything else, but it didn't overshadow the rest of the world, so full of wonder it made me faint and more energized than anything.
it's sort of-- it's easier to smile. like, also-- this and this and this. and little dandelions.
~~
was reading `ten zillion points from gryffindor' by amanuensis on![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
hautemonde's rec... was quite enjoying myself, though stumbled upon this bit:
"Malfoy?" Harry shook his head, not caring that Snape knew about that, but caring very much that he understood how things stood between Draco and him. "Malfoy's a boy. His idea of foreplay is to say, 'Sorry, was that too fast?' while he's picking pubic hairs out of his teeth. He's got no sense of art at all. *And* he's a total bottom. What I want is a *man*." He licked Snape's mouth. "A man like you."
*ponders*
the malfoy bits in h/s stories always throw me off, but this is just a great example of why. i mean, either malfoy is a) disgusting; b) discounted; c) "just a boy". it's that last one that bothers me. the idea that harry would want snape because he's a "real man", or "not a boy", even as a joke. i mean. okay, 16 year old girls feel like that, sometimes-- and i admit i didn't poll 16 year-old bi boys for this, but. er?
and it's not that i'm taking it oh-so-seriously. all in good fun. 'cause if i take h/s too seriously, i can't read it, anyway. muwahahah. yes. have i mentioned i'm a crazed fanatic, and you should be frightened, one and all? because, yes -.-
but anyway. it's weird, seeing malfoy even brought -up-. on the one hand, i'm happy the awesome power of draco is acknowledged (heh). on the other, it's more like-- an in-joke or something, and i'm all for self-deprecation (i know amanuensis writes h/d, so imagine she's at least somewhat of an h/d shipper), it's just. it's the boy/man aspect that is the -weakness- of harry/snape as far as i'm concerned. and okay, it's interesting to make it a strength-- but why does every second fic have to make it a strength?
it's also interesting, because i tend to seek out and enjoy smutty h/s on the fluffy side. whereas if i wanted realism, that probably would involve rather angsty non-smut. or maybe i'm not perverted enough, i dunno. because gah. sexual!snape rather disturbs me, so it all kind of takes place in a happy little la-la land in my head. and this sort of "hey! this is cross-gen!" thing brings me out of my happy place and back down to... well. that place where i -really- wish snape could resist potter's awkward seduction technique, or something. because i'd bet you canon!snape could. not too sure, but rather optimistic about it. that's basically the thing. while i don't go for realism, not really-- not in any huge overwhelming nit-picky way-- i hate it when these large issues of a relationship are basically unworkable as far as i can imagine.
which is of course subjective all the way. but this is rather like reading (the one) snape/sirius i've read and having it be, "wow, i hate you. isn't that great? i actually -like- remus!"
and i'm speaking here as someone who does ship one cross-gen ship and wants them (qui gon and obi wan) to get it on sooner rather than later, in most fics. the trick is, obi wan doesn't go around saying, "oh, qui gon! you're so much more mature than my fellow padawans! no one else could touch me like you do!". i mean, gack! that's just... ew. they just love each other -in spite- of the padawan/master age difference and everything else. i like it when this stuff happens -in spite- of the obstacles, but having it be -because- of them just sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? well, as i see it.
admittedly, as i mentioned, i'm a rabid otp-er with no hope for redemption. also, i have a kink for things happening in spite of the canonically set-up obstacles, not because they don't matter or don't exist. sigh. it's all about "yes, i know, -but-", for me anyway. i mean, the characters don't have to consciously know exactly what's wrong (or worse, right!) with their relationship or anything (that's just expecting way too much from adolescent boys), but. it's nice if they kind of act as if they unconsciously know it. just... keeps me in that happy place, is all. although really, snape naked is -so- not my thing, i don't know why i bother. sigh. good writing, oh, the things i do for thee.
~~
in other news, i'm contemplating reading (the rest of) jkr just to be able to say, "ha! i -have- read them! so ha!".
i mean. i never claim to be correct-- i'm just opinionated and ...er... verbose. on the other hand, there's a definite feeling that if you critique, you better have a "right" to, because otherwise you're just spewing hot air, whether or not you make sense. maybelasultrix is right, and people are rather sensitive about canonicity critique, moreso than regular old critique (style and pacing and plot and what have you, which is, honestly, what i usually comment on anyway) on the other hand, very, very few people -use- those details that a close reading of canon gives you. and a lot of people's characterization is just-- well-- it's like they're writing about hormonal angsty, sappy girls. not too hard to critique.
i mean, there's a certain level of finesse that a really in-depth knowledge gives you, but that finesse is almost never needed, as far as i can tell. and of course, i'm not actually saying you don't need canon knowledge (far from it), but rather-- you need writing that requires it in a reader (uncommon) and you need to pay attention to what you -do- know, as much as you need to know it. so while i may know less, more of it is -used-, more of it is conscious, and more of it is paid -attention- to, as far as i can tell comparing myself to (some) people. but i'm not expert, certainly-- it's all take it or leave it, isn't it? i don't really give very "critical" reviews most times anyway, and i certainly don't canon-pick unless something really glaring happens. and okay, often enough that happens. still, i don't feel i need to know much to know that malfoy isn't a gorgeous, self-assured, universally worshipped model slytherin. just a guess.
on the other hand, hey, i just say what comes to mind. i don't claim i'm preaching gospel. i only know that people who i -do- think have a good grasp on things either think i'm right oftentimes or don't think i'm frighteningly misinformed and dumb oftentimes. otherwise, i'd have no clue, really, and just call it like i see it anyway. because, very obviously-- i just can't seem to-- well-- shut up.
found_objects. my professor says that even though i talk a lot in class, he could never get a sense of me unless he talked to me personally. which i find rather disappointing. but then, it's tempting to just let go, and only think-- i have my connection with the world. i have my love for sky and stream and beauty and poetry, and i don't need all this clutter, all this worrying about others and caring what everyone thinks of me, because in the end it doesn't -do- anything, just sits there, making me feel heavier and heavier.
spring, and i feel lighter. it's too early to really wear just a skirt and a shirt, but i don't care. i'm a little bit cold, but it's alright. sometimes i look at people and i'm pleased to be not alone, and sometimes i just want to walk away, and keep walking. in a strange way, that's a contradiction-- because a part of me wants people to -know- i am a walker, i am walking on the edges of things, through things. i want to be seen and to see, but not necessarily for those things to mix. spring, and spending time typing is seeming like a waste of time. i should curl up somewhere in the sunlight, bring a notebook with me, stay away from the shadows and remember what sunlight on water and rock looks like, because so often, i think that's all i -want- to remember.
in the end, i want writing about love to be like writing about spring-- all about flowing and realizing the bright edges of things, the silver glints in the shadows. i think at some point, i feel if i keep doing things exactly the same way, my mind would congeal into something harsh and insular, disconnected from itself, even. there's a sense of passing, right now. like things are passing, and i'm letting them.
if i just keep reccing things and talking about fanfic, i think i might curl up and dry out. its source-- the source of story-- isn't just within other stories, other people. to me, anyway. a large part of it is within nature, the way the sun strikes the clouds, the way the wind feels against my face. that's also a story, also something i find essential. so, i mean-- kassie wrote fic, and aja wrote fic, and... i think i may start just noting it down on my recs page or something. i'm tired and rejuvenated at the same time. it's a weird sensation.
april makes me think of colors, and warm green and red and yellow, and dragonflies. dragonflies are particularly interesting, i think. their iridescence, their frequent location at overgrown ponds, near reeds and willows and....
the time is getting closer. the time of fireflies, stories in the warm evenings, secret smiles, softened earth. when i was little, i wanted to be someone else-- i wanted to have wings and secrets and silver hair. i wanted everything to be magical, and love was just as magical as anything else, but it didn't overshadow the rest of the world, so full of wonder it made me faint and more energized than anything.
it's sort of-- it's easier to smile. like, also-- this and this and this. and little dandelions.
~~
was reading `ten zillion points from gryffindor' by amanuensis on
hautemonde's rec... was quite enjoying myself, though stumbled upon this bit:"Malfoy?" Harry shook his head, not caring that Snape knew about that, but caring very much that he understood how things stood between Draco and him. "Malfoy's a boy. His idea of foreplay is to say, 'Sorry, was that too fast?' while he's picking pubic hairs out of his teeth. He's got no sense of art at all. *And* he's a total bottom. What I want is a *man*." He licked Snape's mouth. "A man like you."
*ponders*
the malfoy bits in h/s stories always throw me off, but this is just a great example of why. i mean, either malfoy is a) disgusting; b) discounted; c) "just a boy". it's that last one that bothers me. the idea that harry would want snape because he's a "real man", or "not a boy", even as a joke. i mean. okay, 16 year old girls feel like that, sometimes-- and i admit i didn't poll 16 year-old bi boys for this, but. er?
and it's not that i'm taking it oh-so-seriously. all in good fun. 'cause if i take h/s too seriously, i can't read it, anyway. muwahahah. yes. have i mentioned i'm a crazed fanatic, and you should be frightened, one and all? because, yes -.-
but anyway. it's weird, seeing malfoy even brought -up-. on the one hand, i'm happy the awesome power of draco is acknowledged (heh). on the other, it's more like-- an in-joke or something, and i'm all for self-deprecation (i know amanuensis writes h/d, so imagine she's at least somewhat of an h/d shipper), it's just. it's the boy/man aspect that is the -weakness- of harry/snape as far as i'm concerned. and okay, it's interesting to make it a strength-- but why does every second fic have to make it a strength?
it's also interesting, because i tend to seek out and enjoy smutty h/s on the fluffy side. whereas if i wanted realism, that probably would involve rather angsty non-smut. or maybe i'm not perverted enough, i dunno. because gah. sexual!snape rather disturbs me, so it all kind of takes place in a happy little la-la land in my head. and this sort of "hey! this is cross-gen!" thing brings me out of my happy place and back down to... well. that place where i -really- wish snape could resist potter's awkward seduction technique, or something. because i'd bet you canon!snape could. not too sure, but rather optimistic about it. that's basically the thing. while i don't go for realism, not really-- not in any huge overwhelming nit-picky way-- i hate it when these large issues of a relationship are basically unworkable as far as i can imagine.
which is of course subjective all the way. but this is rather like reading (the one) snape/sirius i've read and having it be, "wow, i hate you. isn't that great? i actually -like- remus!"
and i'm speaking here as someone who does ship one cross-gen ship and wants them (qui gon and obi wan) to get it on sooner rather than later, in most fics. the trick is, obi wan doesn't go around saying, "oh, qui gon! you're so much more mature than my fellow padawans! no one else could touch me like you do!". i mean, gack! that's just... ew. they just love each other -in spite- of the padawan/master age difference and everything else. i like it when this stuff happens -in spite- of the obstacles, but having it be -because- of them just sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? well, as i see it.
admittedly, as i mentioned, i'm a rabid otp-er with no hope for redemption. also, i have a kink for things happening in spite of the canonically set-up obstacles, not because they don't matter or don't exist. sigh. it's all about "yes, i know, -but-", for me anyway. i mean, the characters don't have to consciously know exactly what's wrong (or worse, right!) with their relationship or anything (that's just expecting way too much from adolescent boys), but. it's nice if they kind of act as if they unconsciously know it. just... keeps me in that happy place, is all. although really, snape naked is -so- not my thing, i don't know why i bother. sigh. good writing, oh, the things i do for thee.
~~
in other news, i'm contemplating reading (the rest of) jkr just to be able to say, "ha! i -have- read them! so ha!".
i mean. i never claim to be correct-- i'm just opinionated and ...er... verbose. on the other hand, there's a definite feeling that if you critique, you better have a "right" to, because otherwise you're just spewing hot air, whether or not you make sense. maybe
lasultrix is right, and people are rather sensitive about canonicity critique, moreso than regular old critique (style and pacing and plot and what have you, which is, honestly, what i usually comment on anyway) on the other hand, very, very few people -use- those details that a close reading of canon gives you. and a lot of people's characterization is just-- well-- it's like they're writing about hormonal angsty, sappy girls. not too hard to critique.i mean, there's a certain level of finesse that a really in-depth knowledge gives you, but that finesse is almost never needed, as far as i can tell. and of course, i'm not actually saying you don't need canon knowledge (far from it), but rather-- you need writing that requires it in a reader (uncommon) and you need to pay attention to what you -do- know, as much as you need to know it. so while i may know less, more of it is -used-, more of it is conscious, and more of it is paid -attention- to, as far as i can tell comparing myself to (some) people. but i'm not expert, certainly-- it's all take it or leave it, isn't it? i don't really give very "critical" reviews most times anyway, and i certainly don't canon-pick unless something really glaring happens. and okay, often enough that happens. still, i don't feel i need to know much to know that malfoy isn't a gorgeous, self-assured, universally worshipped model slytherin. just a guess.
on the other hand, hey, i just say what comes to mind. i don't claim i'm preaching gospel. i only know that people who i -do- think have a good grasp on things either think i'm right oftentimes or don't think i'm frighteningly misinformed and dumb oftentimes. otherwise, i'd have no clue, really, and just call it like i see it anyway. because, very obviously-- i just can't seem to-- well-- shut up.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Re:
Date: 2003-04-03 07:24 pm (UTC)Yeah, that's not a maybe, that's a for sure. Which is why I think so many pairing are just for the shock value, and they annoy me. *look what I can do! I can write Snape/harry!*
But you know I think H/D fics are out of character for both of them. *That's* why I detest them. Because Harry would *not* date Draco. He would not *fuck* Draco. He would *not* be attracted to him. Harry is a Hero; he is loyal and good, and Draco has abused him from day one. D treated H like Dudley used to, reminding him that even if he is famous, powerful wizard, he spent the first ten years of his life as an abused child. Draco carries on the mental and emotional torment. Any real person would never be attracted to this person who stabs them in their weakest personal spot.
It just does not happen. This is not school yard taunting. Harry believes that Draco and his family are in league with the person who *killed* his parents, who *forced* this horrible, tormented life upon him (living w/ the Dursleys). He would really hate him as much as JK presents on the surface of her books.
Draco taunts and insults Harry's only two real friends he's *ever* had in his life. He would not snog him in a closet.
Anyway, I will stop. But I just had to get that rant out.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-03 07:45 pm (UTC)i mean, there -are- people who think it's canon that draco has a crush on harry (and even that there are signs harry isn't immune to draco)... like, aja and
i like a dose of cynicism and reality, myself~:)
simply because i think my over-romantic nature would self-destruct otherwise, or something. but anyway, the reason i ship harry/draco is obviously not because i read canon and said (w00t! slash!)-- obviously, having not -read- canon before fanon (as i'm sure like, half the fandom knows by now, ahahaaha).
so basically, i just -like- them together, per number of really good fanfics. but most sane, intelligent people (aja, again, heh), do admit that it's the perennial Problem for h/d shippers, getting them together believably-- for the reasons you mentioned/implied and several more, i'm sure. that's why it's a -challenge-. heh.
as far as whether it's out-of-character for them to be together...
well. you know. things change. people do weird things-- their understanding of the world shifts, their desires overwhelm them, hormones happen, circumstances intervene (hello, draco trilogy, ahahahah), and sometimes, you just fall for the entirely wrong person, no matter -who- you are. like me, for instance. WHY oh WHY did i fall for jerk-boy? one -and- two. i don't know, really. i mean, he was really a menace to my emotional and mental health, he did everything in his power to portray himself as a stupid selfish imbalanced commitment-phobic rather insane -prick-.
and you know, the meaner he got, the more he hurt me, and the harder it was to get walk away. it's that -fight or flight- response, you know? it's like-- sometimes rage and anger and conflict spray over into lust and need and delirium. i dunno. people are weird.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-03 07:45 pm (UTC)also, fanfic diverges from canon characterization by necessity-- simply because it can't -be- canon, and people write fanfic to explore -beyond- canon. you know? you simply want to see how certain things would play out-- things that may or may not be possible in canon. i don't think it necessarily implies a perversity that has no regard for characterization. it's just that people see the same characters in really different ways-- you know? you've noticed, i'm sure ^^
so what's possible and "in-character" to one person, is wildly insane to another.
i would like to think that harry could -become- the kind of person who could fall for draco-- i dunno why, and it's certainly not because he -forgets- his taunting and his prejudices and so on. sometimes things just -overwhelm- past history-- but they don't erase it. i'd like to think draco secretly wants harry and taunts him anyway, because he's mean and pathetic and silly and well-- read silvia's draco and you know what i think, heh. well, that and miss breed's draco. *swoons*
i don't know if i think it's -in- canon that way. that canon!draco is like that. it's just that he could conceivably be -read- as that. and that's enough for me. because i just love the issues explored in h/d fics more than any other sort of issues commonly explored with any other pairing.
i'm sure there are a number of h/s shippers who'd say the same, just as there are a number who just want to slash snape with harry because it's hot-- same for h/d. heh. but yes. i love that sense of impossibility, and i like fics which have it-- which have the awareness of the wrongness and the harshness that h/d implies, rather than just saying that draco is really a kitten and harry will just forgive. because i don't think harry would forgive for a good long while, if ever, and draco most certainly is an evil brat-- but i think he may have ...er... other qualities as well~:)
love isn't about straightforward forgiveness, anyway. it's more like-- the ability to accept. i dunno. it's weird that way ><;;
no subject
Date: 2003-04-03 09:21 pm (UTC)also, fanfic diverges from canon characterization by necessity-- simply because it can't -be- canon, and people write fanfic to explore -beyond- canon. you know? you simply want to see how certain things would play out-- things that may or may not be possible in canon. i don't think it necessarily implies a perversity that has no regard for characterization. it's just that people see the same characters in really different ways-- you know? you've noticed, i'm sure ^^
so what's possible and "in-character" to one person, is wildly insane to another.
First of all, I don’t like to read fic that takes the canon characters and warps them into something I don’t see. The entire idea of fanfic is that we play with known quantities and then tweak them somehow to make them do things we don’t see in canon.
Yes, sometimes we bring out their darker sides or take them to an AU where one choice they made ends up changing them forever. That doesn’t mean we ignore completely the core characteristics of the person/people. Or people who write things I read don’t anyway.
Beyond canon doesn’t mean inventing new people and calling them Ron, Hermione, and Harry. It means taking who they are and perhaps aging them, exploring some aspect of their lives we don’t see in canon, making them deeper because JK is really one dimensional.
As far as the last line I quote there, I would say that some people are also v stupid (not you, hon, it’s not a personal attack, but I am saying that just because people take people out of character doesn’t mean that is good writing).
Mainly, what I am arguing through out this thread is that I just do not buy Harry seeing anything in Draco besides some great annoyance and potential serious, dangerous enemy.
Does that mean that if someone wrote a fic that was set after the war and explained to me that Draco had done X for the cause and was bitter and changed, that I wouldn’t possibly buy Harry having a Fire Whiskey with him? No. Does that mean that if Harry went bad (this has to be done convincingly) that I couldn’t see Harry being with Draco in a v dark and twisted situation? No. (this one I would like to see; it has potential.)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-04 01:29 am (UTC)gah. i've just had this really exhausting deal with ...er... you know, lasair's having outed me to the universe (or fandom, as the case may be) as ...er... not having read all of canon, yet (i hope you know, just so i don't have to go through it all with you, too). and. i'm just ...really tired.
but, i know what you're saying. when i read canon first for something, i tend to get really intense impressions of who the characters are. and i really would -hate- to see them messed with to such an extreme extent.
being a fanon-first person, i fell in love with the wrongness before i knew just how wrong it was. or something. but yes. heh. i can imagine, if not feel, your pain ^^;
and pleeeeeeeeeeease, please,pleasepleaseplease don't get all upset and righteously smiteful because of the "canon reading issue", because i don't think i can take it. at this point. maybe after i have some ice-cream (which'll have to be tomorrow -.-)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-04 03:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-04-04 10:32 am (UTC)yah, it wasn't a Secret. but who knew it would make people jump on me? i mean. *laughs*
yah. it's okay, i think this wasn't so bad. no one called anyone names, and i think it was just a rather strident intellectual debate or something. gah. i don't think i can survive being in an actual kerfuffle, i really couldn't.
*empathizes suddenly* ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-04-04 01:57 am (UTC)I swear, I've asked myself this time and time again.
Re:
Date: 2003-04-03 07:55 pm (UTC)well. you know. things change. people do weird things-- their understanding of the world shifts, their desires overwhelm them, hormones happen, circumstances intervene (hello, draco trilogy, ahahahah), and sometimes, you just fall for the entirely wrong person, no matter -who- you are. like me, for instance. WHY oh WHY did i fall for jerk-boy? one -and- two. i don't know, really. i mean, he was really a menace to my emotional and mental health, he did everything in his power to portray himself as a stupid selfish imbalanced commitment-phobic rather insane -prick-.
Dude.
You know I have never read that Trilogy, first off. Why would I torture myself when I would just have to poke my eyes out with a toothpick?
Now, to the important part: people who date people, are attracted to people, who are *mean* to them are not equatable to a person dating the son of someone implicated in the death of one's parents.
Seriously. Take a second to this about this. I can understand why people ship h/d. I am not retarded. What I am saying is the whole 'cuteness' factor will cover a multitude of sins for people who want cute boy X and cute boy Y to hook up and be in love. However, in the case of Harry, he would NEVER do this. He is a bloody Gryffindor, they would rather blow a blast-ended skrewt than trust a Slytherin with their dick, much less their LOVE.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-03 08:44 pm (UTC)i think a number of people would probably downplay this intense disgust and despising you're saying harry feels for draco. i mean-- this whole focus on his supposed role in his parents' crimes, and so on.
eheheeh. this is making me think of
as far as the slytherinness being the Mark of Doom for their relationship--
well.
i dunno-- when/if people are just attracted, that attraction doesn't necessarily respect those arbitrary sorts of boundaries. you know? i -hope- that simply being slytherin isn't enough to make harry feel you're below blast-ended skrewts, no matter what. what that "what" is, is up to each particular fic, i guess.
then again, it's about looking on the Bright Side of...Life :D
so while i can definitely see the "other" side, i mean, i'm not -ignoring- it, i personally don't find it -irrelevant-... it's just that i think there is always possibilities, and that in fact you -could- interpret draco's behavior as being rather borderline on the verge of a crush type of obsession. or not.
but. i mean, just because you ship them doesn't mean you have to ignore the issues. just, you could be more...optimistic about the issues ^^
no subject
Date: 2003-04-03 09:28 pm (UTC)Yes, and they don't know me, and I don't read their fic for a reason. They are dumb.
i dunno-- when/if people are just attracted, that attraction doesn't necessarily respect those arbitrary sorts of boundaries. you know?
I know what you're saying. I completely disagree with you, however. The entire school is set up to foster these types of hatreds. Plus, everyone Harry knows hates Slytherins. You might think that he would just be all "oh well, my love with overcome their disapproval." when faced with the knowledge that every single person in his life would be repulsed, but Harry needs support. He *needs* these people. He has orphan issues in a major way. To disregard this is to just be "fuck Harry Potter books, I am writing a whole new Harry Potter." Fine. People can do that, but they need to friends' lock that shit.
I think on the other side, it would be the same for Draco. He doesn't want to consort with Potter! He was raised hating him. I am sure he only wanted to make friends with in the first place to prove to his dad that he could win over HARRY POTTER, when all he's heard his whole life is what a POS the kid is. What a prize to bring home to, eh? Being able to control and minionize HP? (Draco's thinking.)
eh. we will never agree.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-03 10:25 pm (UTC)i suppose it doesn't make sense. it's just one of those inexplicable attractions to things/ideas/people i should be against. *laughs and laughs*
i think we're playing out some sort of archetypal realist/cynic vs semi-realist/romantic argument, here. hee! it keeps me on my toes, i guess. ahahahaah okay i won't go into h/d parallels ;)
i focus on, "but it -could- change, somehow, someway", and you're all, "but this is how it's -always- been and -is-". basically, i take that leap of faith, and yet i can see where you're at, too. hee. and of course i find a lot of amusement in seeing you call people dumb >:D<
the fun thing is, i'm like in between you and aja, on this. i can see that side, and this side. personally, i like my little fantasy world, ahahahah. you know? i -realize- it's a fantasy world, but like. i'm just goopy like dat.
i can totally see all the um... obstacles. and you know what's funny? when it comes to almost everything else-- in real life-- i'm like that-- i bring up the past and the present and i say, this is just human nature or whatever, and you're beating your head against a brick wall. it's only in stories that i believe-- just because it makes me happy, i feel i need to. but i know it for what it is-- faith.
i just have fun knowing that these happy little paradoxes (or not so happy) can co-exist~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-04-04 03:18 pm (UTC)I want to have your iron-clad-canon babies and I want to make sure you are on my side in any debate ever, anywhere.
Re:
Date: 2003-04-04 08:53 pm (UTC)Could someone sell me on H/D in real way? I don't know. Maybe. I am not really the troll that lives under the bridge. Do I sometimes read H/D and just ignore all character/canon issues? Yes, for the sakes of all my friends who won't stop writing it. Have I written it myself and ignored the fact that I truly, truly believe that Harry would rather be sodomized by The Squid than even feel *sympathy* for Draco (much less *like* him)? Yes, and you can point fingers; I deserve it.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-04 09:05 pm (UTC)you know, you really had me going there, but now-- now i see >:D<
I truly, truly believe that Harry would rather be sodomized by The Squid than even feel *sympathy* for Draco
!!!
*laughs* that has POSSIBILITIES!! :D
"NOT THE SQUID!! I RELENT, I RELENT, JUST NOT--THE--SQUID!!" >:D<
what was i saying, again?
oh, nothing :D
i do think you need a certain temperament to like h/d, if you understand or want to understand them, i mean, beyond the faddish aspect. that is how i explain why people i like and admire don't actually ship it, ahahahah. and people i don't like so much-- well. you know, there are always black sheep :D
but i truly don't think it's willful flouting of canon-- just a totally different take on it. i've seen intelligent people bend the facts to rather suit h/d. and i've see others do the opposite (though not as much). h/d is at least within the realm of intuition, regardless of canon. on an idealised level of dream and desire, they make sense. they're a lot like other sorts of literary couples that way. i don't know if -canon- supports -any- slash except possibly sirius/remus or something (because ron is straight, ahahah).
just. you'd never believe in it if you don't use at least some sort of soppy leap of faith, simply because it's so ... i dunno... classically impossible. "BUT YOU'RE SCUM!!" etc~:)
eh, what do i know~:)
Re:
Date: 2003-04-04 09:22 pm (UTC)But who needs canon when there's hot, antagonistic porn to be read and written? Hehehe.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-04 07:57 pm (UTC)Actually, I think quite a lot of people who were abused as children date/marry people who were exactly like their abusive parent/family. This is a familiar relationship, and Harry might very well gravitate toward it. I mean, what positive relationship examples has he seen? He has a support system now in Ron and Hermione, but even The Boy Who Lived must feel at times that he cannot live up to the expectations placed on him. maybe he lives in fear that he really is as worthless as the Dursleys say he is. Just because everybody is nice to him now, there is 10 years of being told you're a shit head to get over. He's not going to wake up the next day and just "get over it" Maybe he has relapses and needs to get fucked by someone who is mean to him.
Harry believes that Draco and his family are in league with the person who *killed* his parents, who *forced* this horrible, tormented life upon him (living w/ the Dursleys). He would really hate him as much as JK presents on the surface of her books.
This would depend on how charming fanon Draco is. In the books, he's kind of a git, but I think that slytherin could groom him to be a manipulative asshole. Abusers are very charming, that's why women will stick with them even if they beat them up, smack their kids around. So my argument of Draco/Harry depends on Draco being very hot, very manipulative and Harry having self doubts about if he can live up to the expectations of everyone. Maybe throw a little survivor guilt in there too.
Okay, that's all I want to say right now.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-04 09:04 pm (UTC)I know you are just arguing this to annoy the fuck out of me.
If I cede the point that Harry might want to date someone, or that he might end up dating someone even if he would rather not, that treats him like shit, I doubt it would be hit mortal enemy. People don't *really* date their mortal enemy! Yes, I could buy Harry dating Hermione who turned into an over-bearing, hard-assed, controling bitch. She would find fault in everything he did, insult him at every turn, deny him sex or intimacy of any kind, and he would stick by her because he is loyal, and he loves her. *That* is the routine of an abusive relationship. That is not the same as dating Draco at all.
I am not even postulation that Draco truly is evil and horrible and the worst person on earth for the virtue of this argument. I am simply saying that I do not believe that at any point would Harry trust Draco enough to even take a bite of his sandwich, much less touch his dick and not think it was some elaborate plan to put gay porn pics on the front of Wizard's Weekly. Know what I'm sayin', homes? I know you do.
He would have to trust the abuser enough to get into an abusive *relationship* with them. Harry lives with Dean who turns out to be addicted the Cheering Charms and when he comes down he beats the shit out of harry and locks him in the closet? Sure. The above Hermione scenario? Definately. Ron and Harry hook up after Hermione runs off to raise nifflers in Ireland with Seamus, and Ron is an raging alcoholic who cheats serially and gives Harry magiVD? Yuppers. Draco and Harry? No effing way.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-05 08:31 pm (UTC)But Draco has not abused Harry from day one, he isn't Dudley and he hasn't been raised to hate Harry either. (And Harry, imo, isn't just "good.") In Draco and Harry's first interaction Draco is friendly to Harry in his misguided way. Harry that is the first one to be hostile because he thinks Draco is spoiled, which is to Harry a crime. Draco later offers to give him another chance (not much of a tempting offer to Harry but still it's genuine) and Harry openly insults him again. Draco hates Harry, yes, and Harry hates Draco but this isn't abuse. Dudley can hurt Harry in ways Draco can't. I really can't think of one scene where Malfoy has scored much of a hit with Harry, even when he was ranting about Harry not having a family because Harry's accepted this. It's really not a weak spot. However, there are a few times when Harry seems to score a direct hit with Draco, who is the more vulnerable of the two. (The one scene Malfoy scores a hit is, imo, when he tells Harry about Sirius Black.) That Draco is so often the target of Harry's anger at the world does not mean he should be.
There's nothing I could ever point to that would say that H&D are secretly sexually attracted to each other or ever would be. What draws me to the pairing is that to me they are more alike than different and what they hate about each other represents something primal in themselves. The very first thing that makes Harry hate Draco is that he's bragging about bullying his father into getting him a broom which sounds just like Dudley...except that Draco doesn't get a broom. (And Harry does!) The one scene we see where Draco's with his father Lucius isn't coddling Draco like Dudley at all--he's putting him down in front of a shopkeeper much the way Vernon would put Harry down. Only Harry enjoys it when it's Draco, because Draco "deserves" it. I wouldn't be surprised if, had the story been Draco's pov, one couldn't say it was ridiculous to think Draco would be attracted to someone who treats him the way Lucius does. Or that Draco would view Harry very much the way Harry views Dudley. Dudley, after all, is very much characterized by always getting what he wants, so much that he's obese. Draco is pale and pinched and most of the time we see him he's not getting what he wants.
Of course nobody knows what Draco's life is really like, but when I read the books he seemed to obviously be a vulnerable kid and he was always sympathetic to me despite his nasty qualities. He always seemed like a shadow character for Harry, and therefore someone Harry should acknowledge and accept rather than constantly deny. Whether this would mean the two of them as real people would get together, who knows? It's not impossible that two adults who've always hated each other would be sexually attracted and still hate each other. Or that two people who start out hating each other could become friends. But as characters Draco, to me, is useless if he's nothing more than a hate object because I can't hate him. He's too human and sad (for me). He's constantly bested, humiliated, hurt--there's no satisfaction in seeing it happen because it seems like just a vicious cycle that makes him worse.
I just find a relationship between Draco and Harry--any relationship, not just a sexual one--to be incredibly interesting, especially as they head into adolescence. Ron was a great friend for Harry to have as a child (and he still is a great friend, I'm not saying I'd want Ron's role diminished) but he's almost too far in the happy direction with his loving family. He really doesn't know what it's like to be unloved. Draco, from what I've seen, does. He's the only character who seems to be able to HATE the way Harry can. And that makes me just think Harry needs to start seeing this kid as another human being instead of an alien creature with no feelings.
no subject
Date: 2003-04-05 11:52 pm (UTC)a lot of people who say that draco is an evil git say that he was only nice to harry in the shop and on the train because he was told to, or was trying to manipulate harry. so that bit with the "genuine" isn't something one knows, but could believe or not. (ahahaha i can talk about it since i have read it, it being the first book and on through the beginning of the second. *laughs*)
*is devil's advocate*
if you postulate that draco's a calculating bastard, then it's not so endearing that he loses-- just part of his patheticness which means he'll never be good enough for harry to notice, that he can't win. i don't think that, in fact, harry -would- reconsider unless draco does succeed at -something-. seems reasonable, anyway.
i love that bit about them both being able to hate. a number of really good h/d fics use that capacity for passion well, although, isn't ron pretty good at hating draco? it does seem more like prejudice-- a more surface rage, i guess, whereas harry and draco's is more personal, more deeply irrational. hmm.
but yes, i don't need it to be sexual either (even though if threatened, i retreat to saying i'm in it for the porn). that's why i so lust after h/d friendship fics (*cuddles silvia's one friendship fic*) and especially if draco still remains draco and doesn't get changed to be put in that position of friendship. hee. although, high levels of antipathy also work (ie, fistfighting, more obvious conflict, etc. good stuff ~:)
and from what i hear, plenty of people -do- seem to enjoy draco's many defeats, and think he deserves them-- i suppose the people who fully identify with either harry or ron. i don't know if i totally like this version of draco-as-victim-- since if he was, harry wouldn't like him, in the end (or respect him, at least). but i do think that his inability to give up saves him from that fate. and stubborn losers are cuter than stubborn winners, although that's obviously a matter of complete bias for me -.-
no subject
Date: 2003-04-06 09:48 am (UTC)a lot of people who say that draco is an evil git say that he was only nice to harry in the shop and on the train because he was told to, or was trying to manipulate harry.
Oddly enough I was thinking about this this morning and I think it fits fanon!Draco but not canon. We see Lucius tell Draco to mask his true feelings regarding Harry is CoS and Draco can't do it. Draco's never truly successful at hiding emotion: Harry knows when he's scared in the FF or on his broom, he sees the spots of anger on his cheeks on the train, he sees the pain and humiliation in his eyes after the ferret incident.
Lucius is completely bored and indifferent to Draco's Harry hatred in CoS--this doesn't sound like a guy who's been giving Draco orders on how to treat him. Lucius' enemy in CoS is Weasley, not Harry. The clippings he sends to Draco are about the Weasleys. I just don't think he cares about Harry until Harry messes with him. Voldemort calls Lucius his "slippery friend" and Lucius distanced himself from the DEs as soon as Voldemort was gone, so I can't see him raising his son to hate Harry simply because Harry took Voldemort out. I think he raised him to believe in Voldemort's ideals but not worship the man himself as some sort of Christ figure.
if you postulate that draco's a calculating bastard, then it's not so endearing that he loses-- just part of his patheticness which means he'll never be good enough for harry to notice, that he can't win. i don't think that, in fact, harry -would- reconsider unless draco does succeed at -something-. seems reasonable, anyway.
I agree. I've always thought (loving Draco as I do) that part of the reason he's so useless as a villain is that he's not numb or cold or evil. His impulses are mostly about wanting attention and praise. There's an innocence about him. That Draco has retained this ability to love given his upbringing, to me, makes him strangely heroic. He seems dying to prove himself worthy to someone he respects--he's a prime candidate for being coaxed towards the good side. I think if Draco made just one significant, morally correct, reasoned decision it would get Harry's attention. Draco, to me, is on a dark path to knowledge--everything he knows is wrong. A Draco who's been stripped of everything and realizes he's been taught lies and then, reduced to nothing, takes some action on his own that Harry can respect...that, I think, could happen given the canon characters. If nothing else, Draco could be a symbol of reproach: all this potential gone to waste.
I do think there's a difference between Ron and Harry's abilities to hate just because Ron has always been surrounded by love. So much so that I don't think he can really understand that other people haven't been. He hates Malfoy a lot but not quite in the same self-destructive/self-hating way Harry could, imo. Probably my favorite scene is in GoF when Harry finally snaps at Ron and Ron, who's been a brat, is completely shocked at what a badass Harry can be. (My least favorite scene is when all this wonderful tension is dismissed in a few lines later on--this is probably my biggest issue with JKR's writing!)
i do think that his inability to give up saves him from that fate.
I hope so! Sometimes I feel like Draco is just an idealized version of a bully. You get to hate him but all the times when, realistically, he'd score a hit he doesn't. Worst case of this: Hermione slaps him and he just backs off like she's Katherine Hepburn slapping the male lead in a 40's movie. That scene, to me, is not Hermione vs. Draco it's Mary Sue vs. a straw man bully. It's like a tall tale someone would tell about how they put someone in their place, but you'd know it wasn't true because when you asked, "And what did he do?" they just said, "Oh he, um, didn't say anything. Just walked away." When I feel him getting used that way by his author it just makes me all the more protective of him.:-)