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reenkathere is something deeply wrong that the most in-character fic i can think of that features graphic harry/draco sex is.... tada! `tickle me pink' by durendal! ahahahaah. you may think i'm kidding, but i'm so, so not. seriously. yes. oh yes. i mean, YES. and i don't mean that in a "yes, yes, oh baby" sort of way (ahahaha well, if you'd read the fic you'd know why), but like. yes. i have -such- a messed-up view of them, obviously. ahahahaha.
i think this explains why i find gentle loving touches and "sensual explorations of budding sexuality" to be hilarious to the point of like, -pain-, ahahahah. this is funny and wrong and sexy and lame and frenzied and insane and did i mention really wrong?? that's what i love about it. because face it, malfoy and harry having sex would feel really really wrong to them, at first. somehow. someway. does anyone know what i mean?? i mean, right, really right but really wrong also. and not in that angsty way that makes you depressed and weepy, no. in that way where you're like, "ohmygod, i'm fucking insane, but DO THAT AGAIN". hee!
i don't know -why- i've been stumbling across so many "loving erotic encounter" fics lately, but they're really making me barfy. *laughs* this is why i'm -not- reading harlequins, you see. this is why i'm not reading run-of-the-mill het. this is why i `ship two people who can't stand each other. it's -not- because i think they're made for walks under moonlight and gentle kisses. although. i mean. ok. but it'd be weird. it'd be surreal. it would not be ... -sappy-. or "erotically sensual". i -hate- that. you can -tell- a girl wrote that. sensual?? sensual??!
well... i don't mean there's a limit on who can be sensual. kittens, 15-year-old boys, old ladies-- it's human. but when you go out of your way to be sensual on purpose, that's another thing. i'm remembering silvia's fluff fic, with the wrist rubbing. yes. that works. it's unplanned. it's an accident. it... just happens.
and that's what i want. i want things to "just happen". what would happen, if things just went 100% natural, no newfound aggression, no newfound tenderness, no newfound need to submit. a struggle and friction that is still somewhat subtle. i think yes, throwing the other against walls and floors is realistic. but i actually think you'd need to build up to that, too-- not that you don't need to build up to -any- of it. damn. so complicated.
one of my (admittedly low-brow) goals in my h/d research (also known as the Quest for Bigger Better Smut) is to figure out and implement that elusive thing i'd call "in-character sex". so i wanted to ask what you all thought it would be. i don't think i know.
but take purely-in-character draco and purely-in-character harry in their fifth (or if you -really- want, sixth) year. make them fuck. what would they do? how would they act? (this would be the equivalent of me trying to extrapolate the conversation ron and harry would have if harry decided to `come out').
this isn't very easy for me personally to visualize. i've read resolution, `after the flood', luw, power play, commencement, nancy's mpi smutlet-- all of them in-character for their unique twist on the potterverse characterization. this is also very important and difficult-- staying true to your own characterization, obviously.
but what if there was no twist? i just want to see that. i don't think i have. if i thought it'd help, i'd say this was a challenge, but it's not, really. just a question.
deidre's fic made sense to me-- in a humorous sort of way. they're 15. not teenage sex gods. not experienced. not sensitive. not (most likely) gentle. harry though, isn't exactly mr Macho Man. neither is draco. neither seems all -that- given to physical violence. a lot of fics rely on it (like the new-and-much-recced `the worst happiest day of his life'). but i think canonically, draco is a chicken. a limp noodle. all bark no bite. at least, he's no wildcat, let's just say that. he's arrogant, he's full of himself (or rather, full of shit), but he needs goons to be tough.
harry, on the other hand, isn't violent either, but for different reasons. he may get mad, but he wouldn't hit draco unless draco hit him first, i'm pretty sure. and draco would -not- hit him first.
although, going along this "they're teenage dorks" sort of path, `seeker to seeker' went too far. harry isn't -that- insensitive. he is still getting crushes and blushes and he stammers around those he's attracted to.
so it would be a crush. okay then.
but i've danced around the issue of the actual sex so far. what would it be like? i don't mean, blowjobs vs rimming vs kink vs handjobs. i mean-- just-- atmosphere. attitude.
angry? tentative? what would they be like? i mean, ok, they jump each other, brains shut down, the end? instinct takes over? like magic?
sounds suspicious. i guess i'm just saying, i don't see erotic fruit games and licking wine off nipples or soft endearments happening.
i see groping and being mortified and being pushy and annoyed and overwhelmed and trying not to be vulnerable but failing but still trying not to be. probably coming too fast, probably not kissing and hugging quite so much (and damn, it hurts like hell to say that, because honestly, i adore the kissing and cuddling and sleeping together and all that jazz).
they may kiss, but not like-- er-- well. not like in romance novels, i guess. i mean, too many of us are writing romance novels. which are great, i love them (mmm, trash romance). but, it's not that i'm calling for gritty realism, here. or even less bodice-ripping (mmmmmm, bodice-ripping....)
depends what sort of bodice-ripping. the type where you're impatient and horny and frantic is fine. the type where you're some sort of romantic hero sweeping someone off their feet is not fine, basically.
all in all, i'm grumpy because i feel silly, like i'm wasting my time even more than usual, reading about how draco is this erotically sensual love-god of slytherin, and how he knows just how to touch harry, and this is their 7th year or whatever. being preternaturally mutually attracted is perfectly normal, in my happy little world. sure, they can come just looking into each other's eyes, sure. they're teenage boys, eheheheh. but. seriously. no wine. no fruit. no gay sex section in the library to fill harry in on the finer points.
i wonder why the fruit thing got me like that. it's not like i hate fruit. i can see the strategic uses of fruit at breakfast. i can see harry deep-throating ice-cream-- he seems cute like that. just not ice-cream dribbling and hot wax and like... yah. i'll shut up now ><;;
~~
in other news. well. er. if you know my taste in fic... well, i don't know who "knows", but anyway... one of the most blatant opinions i have is my immediate negative reaction to `all torn down'. i think i just overreact to the handling of certain issues to the point where it became a rallying cry that fics not be like `all torn down'. i don't hate it or anything-- that's a weird emotion to feel for a fic, but it's gotten some really long-winded reviews from me on ff.net. a -lot- of people rec it and read it and like it, and i just have issues with it, but find it very readable and involving.
anyway. i find it very amusing that obake wrote me this lengthy email where she like, explained everything. everything i had issues with, she did at least partly on purpose, and is aware of what she's doing. that just seriously boggles my mind. i'm impressed, but it also makes me think of just how much stuff writers can pack into their stories, and just how divergent reader reactions can be, whether you write it consciously or unconsciously.
like, the famous example being the conscious use of h/d subtext in the draco trilogy. as many people see it, equally many -don't-. some of those many i consider a) intelligent; b) perceptive readers; and all are c) slashers. i'm amazed that even perceptive readers, who pay as much attention as they could, would totally misinterpret an author's intent like that. on the other hand, doesn't this come down to authorial skill? if you really meant to have it mean something other than the obvious, shouldn't you give clues? obake seemed to think that merely -having- those things would be enough of a clue, rather than hinting at reasons. and usually, i'm all about show-don't-tell, so what's the hold up?
this all comes down to authorial intent, of course. does it make it ok, that you didn't mean it that way? should i, as a reader, read differently post-factum, somehow? i don't know. i might respect the author more, but would i enjoy the fic more? no.
i should remember unreliability of narrators and not everything being as it seems and so on and so forth, but... i suppose i'm used to -thinking- and having some sort of opinion and reaction to things immediately, rather than only at the end, after everything is said and done. naturally, a fic gains a whole new perspective after the end, and all the threads have come together and you can see the "whole picture"... but hopefully it's a continuation of themes, a resolution rather than a departure.
the simple fact remains, i can and do judge books by the first page/paragraph/sentence/what have you. most often, i'm not disappointed midway, and if i do stop from boredom, i was forcing myself from the beginning anyway. a novel does gain greater depth and complexity by the end, seeing it whole in hindsight, but the pure -enjoyment- of it doesn't seem to depend on that complexity and depth. it's just another -layer-, but i don't think it's the strongest one. do we remember how we felt -as- we read or afterwards? for me, it differs with the book somewhat, but mostly i remember my pleasure at reading. to me, it's about the process. my favorite books are, of course, equally spell-binding and smooth and convincing first sentence to last, but that happens very rarely. usually, i would say the overall experience had been better than the eventual revelations i got. any large book/series i can think of outside a very select few, the ending/resolution was anticlimactic more often than not, and didn't satisfy so much as... complete.
in hp fanfic, there are few h/d novels (my area of so-called expertise) that come to a satisfying conclusion. in fact, i would seriously claim there are none that truly made me feel like, yes, this has fulfilled itself. i have a feeling `two lost souls' did that, but ehehehe my avoidance of amalin's scary deathfic knows no bounds, apparently. actually, i think `dragonweed' was satisfying, but honestly, that is such an abstract fic that a largely metaphorical conclusion totally worked the way it wouldn't in many other fics. now, `after the flood' fucking rocked hardcore in its ending. seriously. now -that's- how it should be done. woo-hoo! of course, most people can't easily attain that level of dexterity at structure and pacing, because it was nearly perfect. but oh well, it wasn't a novel (maybe a novelette though).
i'm just strange. i don't consider death to be a satisfying conclusion (usually), so that's out in most cases. "and then they kissed" just leaves me feeling hollow. wrapping things up and tallying everything makes me slightly nauseous (and he did this, and she did that, and that guy felt this and the other guy felt something else, and then they all went to get ice-cream, and eventually got married and had 3 babies which went to france. gaaaah!! - and yes, i didn't like `the lodger' nearly as much as other people because of its ending, though it fit the fic i guess.)
anyway. i'm not as picky as i sound. what i was saying was, most people suck at endings, but that doesn't mean i don't love their work, and basically it's the process that counts, to me.
but i'm just pleasantly surprised to find that wow, people can do these things i cry bloody murder at for conscious, premeditated reasons that are in no way apparent at the time, but might be clear later (supposedly). i was all, "but he'd never do that!!" and she said, "you're right, he wouldn't, he's just doing -this- and it only -looks- like that". which, you know, is cool. she's probably the only person who made draco call harry "dear" because of hidden motives. that's cool. but it still squicked me. should i use my godlike knowledge of authorial intent to now feel better and less squicked? does that make it a better fic (to me)? weird questions, aren't they?
~~
and. ivy's animated version of `origins' chapter 1 just killed me. ahahaha. <3~!
i think this explains why i find gentle loving touches and "sensual explorations of budding sexuality" to be hilarious to the point of like, -pain-, ahahahah. this is funny and wrong and sexy and lame and frenzied and insane and did i mention really wrong?? that's what i love about it. because face it, malfoy and harry having sex would feel really really wrong to them, at first. somehow. someway. does anyone know what i mean?? i mean, right, really right but really wrong also. and not in that angsty way that makes you depressed and weepy, no. in that way where you're like, "ohmygod, i'm fucking insane, but DO THAT AGAIN". hee!
i don't know -why- i've been stumbling across so many "loving erotic encounter" fics lately, but they're really making me barfy. *laughs* this is why i'm -not- reading harlequins, you see. this is why i'm not reading run-of-the-mill het. this is why i `ship two people who can't stand each other. it's -not- because i think they're made for walks under moonlight and gentle kisses. although. i mean. ok. but it'd be weird. it'd be surreal. it would not be ... -sappy-. or "erotically sensual". i -hate- that. you can -tell- a girl wrote that. sensual?? sensual??!
well... i don't mean there's a limit on who can be sensual. kittens, 15-year-old boys, old ladies-- it's human. but when you go out of your way to be sensual on purpose, that's another thing. i'm remembering silvia's fluff fic, with the wrist rubbing. yes. that works. it's unplanned. it's an accident. it... just happens.
and that's what i want. i want things to "just happen". what would happen, if things just went 100% natural, no newfound aggression, no newfound tenderness, no newfound need to submit. a struggle and friction that is still somewhat subtle. i think yes, throwing the other against walls and floors is realistic. but i actually think you'd need to build up to that, too-- not that you don't need to build up to -any- of it. damn. so complicated.
one of my (admittedly low-brow) goals in my h/d research (also known as the Quest for Bigger Better Smut) is to figure out and implement that elusive thing i'd call "in-character sex". so i wanted to ask what you all thought it would be. i don't think i know.
but take purely-in-character draco and purely-in-character harry in their fifth (or if you -really- want, sixth) year. make them fuck. what would they do? how would they act? (this would be the equivalent of me trying to extrapolate the conversation ron and harry would have if harry decided to `come out').
this isn't very easy for me personally to visualize. i've read resolution, `after the flood', luw, power play, commencement, nancy's mpi smutlet-- all of them in-character for their unique twist on the potterverse characterization. this is also very important and difficult-- staying true to your own characterization, obviously.
but what if there was no twist? i just want to see that. i don't think i have. if i thought it'd help, i'd say this was a challenge, but it's not, really. just a question.
deidre's fic made sense to me-- in a humorous sort of way. they're 15. not teenage sex gods. not experienced. not sensitive. not (most likely) gentle. harry though, isn't exactly mr Macho Man. neither is draco. neither seems all -that- given to physical violence. a lot of fics rely on it (like the new-and-much-recced `the worst happiest day of his life'). but i think canonically, draco is a chicken. a limp noodle. all bark no bite. at least, he's no wildcat, let's just say that. he's arrogant, he's full of himself (or rather, full of shit), but he needs goons to be tough.
harry, on the other hand, isn't violent either, but for different reasons. he may get mad, but he wouldn't hit draco unless draco hit him first, i'm pretty sure. and draco would -not- hit him first.
although, going along this "they're teenage dorks" sort of path, `seeker to seeker' went too far. harry isn't -that- insensitive. he is still getting crushes and blushes and he stammers around those he's attracted to.
so it would be a crush. okay then.
but i've danced around the issue of the actual sex so far. what would it be like? i don't mean, blowjobs vs rimming vs kink vs handjobs. i mean-- just-- atmosphere. attitude.
angry? tentative? what would they be like? i mean, ok, they jump each other, brains shut down, the end? instinct takes over? like magic?
sounds suspicious. i guess i'm just saying, i don't see erotic fruit games and licking wine off nipples or soft endearments happening.
i see groping and being mortified and being pushy and annoyed and overwhelmed and trying not to be vulnerable but failing but still trying not to be. probably coming too fast, probably not kissing and hugging quite so much (and damn, it hurts like hell to say that, because honestly, i adore the kissing and cuddling and sleeping together and all that jazz).
they may kiss, but not like-- er-- well. not like in romance novels, i guess. i mean, too many of us are writing romance novels. which are great, i love them (mmm, trash romance). but, it's not that i'm calling for gritty realism, here. or even less bodice-ripping (mmmmmm, bodice-ripping....)
depends what sort of bodice-ripping. the type where you're impatient and horny and frantic is fine. the type where you're some sort of romantic hero sweeping someone off their feet is not fine, basically.
all in all, i'm grumpy because i feel silly, like i'm wasting my time even more than usual, reading about how draco is this erotically sensual love-god of slytherin, and how he knows just how to touch harry, and this is their 7th year or whatever. being preternaturally mutually attracted is perfectly normal, in my happy little world. sure, they can come just looking into each other's eyes, sure. they're teenage boys, eheheheh. but. seriously. no wine. no fruit. no gay sex section in the library to fill harry in on the finer points.
i wonder why the fruit thing got me like that. it's not like i hate fruit. i can see the strategic uses of fruit at breakfast. i can see harry deep-throating ice-cream-- he seems cute like that. just not ice-cream dribbling and hot wax and like... yah. i'll shut up now ><;;
~~
in other news. well. er. if you know my taste in fic... well, i don't know who "knows", but anyway... one of the most blatant opinions i have is my immediate negative reaction to `all torn down'. i think i just overreact to the handling of certain issues to the point where it became a rallying cry that fics not be like `all torn down'. i don't hate it or anything-- that's a weird emotion to feel for a fic, but it's gotten some really long-winded reviews from me on ff.net. a -lot- of people rec it and read it and like it, and i just have issues with it, but find it very readable and involving.
anyway. i find it very amusing that obake wrote me this lengthy email where she like, explained everything. everything i had issues with, she did at least partly on purpose, and is aware of what she's doing. that just seriously boggles my mind. i'm impressed, but it also makes me think of just how much stuff writers can pack into their stories, and just how divergent reader reactions can be, whether you write it consciously or unconsciously.
like, the famous example being the conscious use of h/d subtext in the draco trilogy. as many people see it, equally many -don't-. some of those many i consider a) intelligent; b) perceptive readers; and all are c) slashers. i'm amazed that even perceptive readers, who pay as much attention as they could, would totally misinterpret an author's intent like that. on the other hand, doesn't this come down to authorial skill? if you really meant to have it mean something other than the obvious, shouldn't you give clues? obake seemed to think that merely -having- those things would be enough of a clue, rather than hinting at reasons. and usually, i'm all about show-don't-tell, so what's the hold up?
this all comes down to authorial intent, of course. does it make it ok, that you didn't mean it that way? should i, as a reader, read differently post-factum, somehow? i don't know. i might respect the author more, but would i enjoy the fic more? no.
i should remember unreliability of narrators and not everything being as it seems and so on and so forth, but... i suppose i'm used to -thinking- and having some sort of opinion and reaction to things immediately, rather than only at the end, after everything is said and done. naturally, a fic gains a whole new perspective after the end, and all the threads have come together and you can see the "whole picture"... but hopefully it's a continuation of themes, a resolution rather than a departure.
the simple fact remains, i can and do judge books by the first page/paragraph/sentence/what have you. most often, i'm not disappointed midway, and if i do stop from boredom, i was forcing myself from the beginning anyway. a novel does gain greater depth and complexity by the end, seeing it whole in hindsight, but the pure -enjoyment- of it doesn't seem to depend on that complexity and depth. it's just another -layer-, but i don't think it's the strongest one. do we remember how we felt -as- we read or afterwards? for me, it differs with the book somewhat, but mostly i remember my pleasure at reading. to me, it's about the process. my favorite books are, of course, equally spell-binding and smooth and convincing first sentence to last, but that happens very rarely. usually, i would say the overall experience had been better than the eventual revelations i got. any large book/series i can think of outside a very select few, the ending/resolution was anticlimactic more often than not, and didn't satisfy so much as... complete.
in hp fanfic, there are few h/d novels (my area of so-called expertise) that come to a satisfying conclusion. in fact, i would seriously claim there are none that truly made me feel like, yes, this has fulfilled itself. i have a feeling `two lost souls' did that, but ehehehe my avoidance of amalin's scary deathfic knows no bounds, apparently. actually, i think `dragonweed' was satisfying, but honestly, that is such an abstract fic that a largely metaphorical conclusion totally worked the way it wouldn't in many other fics. now, `after the flood' fucking rocked hardcore in its ending. seriously. now -that's- how it should be done. woo-hoo! of course, most people can't easily attain that level of dexterity at structure and pacing, because it was nearly perfect. but oh well, it wasn't a novel (maybe a novelette though).
i'm just strange. i don't consider death to be a satisfying conclusion (usually), so that's out in most cases. "and then they kissed" just leaves me feeling hollow. wrapping things up and tallying everything makes me slightly nauseous (and he did this, and she did that, and that guy felt this and the other guy felt something else, and then they all went to get ice-cream, and eventually got married and had 3 babies which went to france. gaaaah!! - and yes, i didn't like `the lodger' nearly as much as other people because of its ending, though it fit the fic i guess.)
anyway. i'm not as picky as i sound. what i was saying was, most people suck at endings, but that doesn't mean i don't love their work, and basically it's the process that counts, to me.
but i'm just pleasantly surprised to find that wow, people can do these things i cry bloody murder at for conscious, premeditated reasons that are in no way apparent at the time, but might be clear later (supposedly). i was all, "but he'd never do that!!" and she said, "you're right, he wouldn't, he's just doing -this- and it only -looks- like that". which, you know, is cool. she's probably the only person who made draco call harry "dear" because of hidden motives. that's cool. but it still squicked me. should i use my godlike knowledge of authorial intent to now feel better and less squicked? does that make it a better fic (to me)? weird questions, aren't they?
~~
and. ivy's animated version of `origins' chapter 1 just killed me. ahahaha. <3~!
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no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 04:08 am (UTC)I think it's going to have about 20 chapters.
no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 04:34 am (UTC)i think PoL will have about 23 chapters...
anyway.
VM.
next chapter.
ETA?
not to put on the pressure, but i want -more- and i'm selfish like that. ^^;
no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 06:34 am (UTC)RL is incredibly fucked up right now, so I honestly don't know about an ETA. I got sucked into writing Smallville last week, so I guess that shows that I can write 5000 words in three busy days, without my computer even, and have them half-decent - if I get struck by inspiration, soon. If not... well, I get holiday in three weeks' time...
Seriously speaking? Hopefully within two weeks.
no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 01:14 pm (UTC)(well, i'm pretty sure -i- would)
publish VM when you can, and i'll be more than happy.
i only ask because i'm a greedy little bitch. ^^;;
hope your visit goes well. =^-^=
no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 04:59 am (UTC)i did mean that the endings aren't the most important thing by far, and only brought it up to say, well, if `all torn down' gets "all better" by the end & i see the light, it won't matter so much because i'm more into the process than the resolution ^^;
heh. that's what i was saying. although i rambled a lot and that was probably unclear as usual >< hee
but. er. i was -far- from implying a fic isn't "good" if it doesn't end in some sort of deeply satisfying manner. i mean. i'm not like that. i think endings are just ...someplace to stop, and the story goes on forever.
er. well, i know you have a sandman icon, but i'm not sure if you've read "brief lives" (even though that icon's from it), but anyway... at the end of brief lives (i -think-) there's this quote... by chesterton, y'know? it was from "a man called thursday" i think. or was he called tuesday? damn ^^; anyway. it went something like-- endings are only places where you stop for awhile, and close your eyes, and don't read anymore. stories-- every story-- goes on forever. i believe this completely on faith, but it's the feeling that matters... you know? The Story can't end. this is especially poignant in brief lives, considering. heh. orpheus, dream, his impending death, and that arc in many many other ways.
sigh.
the best endings-- and why i adore `after the flood' and -its- ending, are open, and yet closed. you know? nothing truly -wrapped- and yet nothing truly -dangling-. sort of the completeness of The Moment.
brief lives itself has a great ending. mmmm.
as for vm~:)
oh, i'll always read it. if i leave the fandom, i'd want you to like, send it to me or i'll just keep checking hp_fictrack, eheheh ;)
but the enjoyment i've already had from it can't be taken away, you know? just as the lack of enjoyment of `all torn down' can't be easily remedied~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 06:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 04:31 am (UTC):shrugs:
you may like the end of PoL, and you may not. i'm not really sure.
i don't really care for 'dragonweed' or its sequel, though i did enjoy 'after the flood'. i don't care for obake's epic either, and i have read most of what's out of it. regardless of the reasoning behind it, i found the characters too consistently OOC for me to enjoy it. there are only so many excuses that can be made, i feel.
i've always felt that endings depend on execution- done well i find death-fics just as satisfying as happier endings. i think, though, that endings involving death are harder to execute. harder to make the reader like/appreciate/etc. them.
and you really -should- read 'two lost souls'. it's one of the best H/D fics out there, in my opinion.
and after all, death comes eventually to everything and everyone. better for death to have meaning than for life to slowly leech away from the emotion and meaning that remains. which is not an advocation for suicide- simply a statement. all things end, and sometimes dragging them out too long can be the cruelest thing of all.
and i've gone OT. prolly because i'm hungry. must scavenge for dinner. *_*
no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 05:20 am (UTC)i can right now think of several instances where it was, most notably with `the sandman'. a lot of death in that fic.
but with amalin, er... well. i just haven't gotten to it, really. plus i don't rush to things that i know will do me in, in that sad, sad, sniffly (wah! guh! pain!) sort of way.
her ficlets are bad enough, really. but. er... ><;;
she promised me she'll come see me in new york and feed me ice cream and comfort me as i read it, so i'm holding her to that >:D< *laughs*
and yah, i was basically saying that no excuses are good enough when something's bad enough, ehehe.
but still, isn't it funny that she had thought-out reasons for all that stuff? i mean. i find that admirable, even if the results aren't.
but yes. was mostly only talking about the end of `after the flood', eheheh. and the -end- of dragonweed, which i -think- ends with all that metaphorical stuff about sunlight and daisies, which i thought was cool~:)
hee. daisies~:)
no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 06:19 am (UTC)and it sounds like fun with amalin! (wish i could've done that)
i think we agree on the excuses not being enough. ^^
and see, i think that many fanficcers think out their arguments for their characters. or at least know them well enough that there are rationalizations for what the characters are doing. hell, i even do it in PoL. but the thing is that no matter how many excuses and rationalizations people have, if the characters are unbelievable to the reader those excuses don't matter. if the arguments aren't made effectively and timed well the writer's omniscience doesn't do much good. i think it's a mark of an excellent writer who can juggle all of the elements.
but fanfiction is nothing but subjective, so... :shrugs:
i enjoyed 'after the flood' in a light way, and was agreeing on the ending, which i definitely appreciated. i had little enough liking for 'dragonweed' that i found the end to be rather slapped on and explanatory. but then again, i can't usually seperate the ending of something from the work as a whole.
:toddles off to bed:
no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 04:39 pm (UTC)i dunno if i could relate to those two fics in a light way, they're just so... heavy. y'know? i dunno.
Draco's thrusts inside him have achieved a regular rhythm like the beat of a heart, and with every further movement Harry feels them more intensely, bright spikes of pleasure driven down through his wrists, his groin, the back of his eyes, his temples, more intense than any pain could ever be and he bites down on his lip the way that he used to, back at school, because he had no other way to express his disappointment.
&
He still tastes of cigarettes and he still kisses too fiercely to be good at it. Harry lets his head fall back, the stone of the wall behind him cold against his neck and shoulders. He lets himself fall into the kissing. It has a rhythm, like the regular slap of water against the side of the canal. His tongue outlines Draco's lips, their mouths open together, he finds that sweetness in the other boy's mouth that is so unexpected.
gaaaaah. *whimpers*
*bows down to text*
i only hope i could be half that good, most of the time ^^;
and hee! it's a deathfic only if death is the resolution, not the natural state ;)
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Date: 2003-02-09 05:11 pm (UTC)i think what i meant there was that while i enjoyed them they did not affect me deeply. it's just something about cassie claire's writing style, in the end. i enjoy her writing very much, but it simply doesn't move me the way some people's writing does.
i'm not sure why, because looking at it logically she has everything in her writing that should make me fall instantly in love. but despite my enjoyment and appreciation the 'spark' isn't there.
again, it's the difference between being moved by something and simply appreciating it. there are artists and musicians and writers whose work strikes something deep inside me, and there are those who do not.
which is not to say i don't like the two stories- i do, and think they as a whole are excellent pieces. i'm probably going to read them again, and if cassie published professionally i would definitely be buying her books. in fact, i'd probably enjoy her original fiction more than her fanfiction, simply because then i would not have nitpicky issues on the characterization (etc) front (and because i think she has the imagination to make some ~interesting~ places and people).
but the difference would be there. like- when i first read hp lovecraft, by the end of the story i was almost shaking in my seat, so disturbed i felt ill. and wanted more.
after i read moorcock (not the elric stuff, but his deeper works) i find myself mentally blown out for days.
the comic cerebus made me rethink reality, both personally and objectively
on the fandom front, after reading aj hall's LOP i was jumping around for hours, randomly breaking out into laughter and reciting lines from the piece.
amalin's work is something that still touches me, months later.
i could go on. but i guess it comes down to the fact that sometimes there is -something- more. and that something is very personal, and individual.
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Date: 2003-02-09 05:33 pm (UTC)and i even know what you mean about cassie's writing in particular. like, in a wordless sort of way, something i couldn't pin down.
i can see it both ways, really. like..... this is weird, for example. take ivy's writing. i think her style and command of language is just amazing. beautiful. makes me faint. but, as beautiful as her smut scenes are, they never actually -work- to me, on a visceral level. they never truly come alive so that i'm involved. i can watch but i don't feel i'm -there-, i don't really -react- to it.
same with cassie's smut. i don't react to it, even as i savor her writing to the point of faintness.
and yes, naturally there is that personal connection that is vital. i think a large part of the reason why i completely adore aja's stuff (like, every second, twelfth night and atrophy) is that deeply personal bond i have with it. it's like it's written to me. i don't know how else to explain it. i guess that's what they mean by "speaks to you".
and yes, amalin. although with amalin it's a different relationship. i find her language more alive than her characters. i couldn't tell you i "like" or "know" her harry or draco. but i adore her writing to the extreme. with her, it's just intense, painful amounts of beauty. words like razors. when she's on the ball, she could be talking complete stream-of-consciousness semi-nonsense and i would be spellbound.
and hee! you tease me for the goo-on-the-floor thing, whereas obviously you are the same way, just a different metaphor >:D<
mwuwahahahaha!! I KNOW YOUR SECRET NOW!!!
er.
yes. i know what you mean about those two fics. they're beautiful, exquisitely well-written, but they're not... well. they're not like `twelfth night' or `absence' or `brief interval' or anything. wah. `brief interval', i always thought was weird. because i don't even -know- what it is about it that consumed me, but it did. it had -such- an emotional whammy to me, and i can't guarrantee that everyone would see it. i think one's personal experience and emotional make-up has to respond and resonate with the fic, too. like, `every second' is more "me" than `absence', in terms of response to death, so i was completely -broken- by the former and yet kind of -cut cleanly and deeply- by the latter.
although, with `absence', i dunno if i was -sad- or -broken-. it was more a fugue, like music rather than story. i dunno. emotion rather than pain at death. i get a particular response to death, and that wasn't it.
although cassie -does- touch me deeply with the latest bits of dv, as you could tell, considering the things i wrote for it. i think `he loves fierce' is probably -the- most emotional i ever got with a hp fic. i mean, other fics are -as- intense, but none are -more- intense. and again, probably just my own buttons and stuff.
hee! and i do know about subjectivity. i -still- can't look at ip very rationally.
always, the books/stories that speak the most to me, are revelations -to- me -about- me and the universe and... it's like... i learn about myself through them. it's weird, because that sounds like i'm completely self-centered (er...) but... at least that's what i started with, when i was reading in my childhood and adolescence, so i still think of myself that way.
and guh. i should really read more "serious" moorcock, shouldn't i. i have only small clues as to how good he is-- from several short stories and one essay (which i adored. i love his essays on writing.)
reading the first elric book didn't help (see, i always want to start at the beginning....)
i mean, really now. gah. that book made me want to run far, far away. moonglum alone, is enough to scare me. me and my ex-bf have a running joke. "oh, moonglum..."
the very -name- means "dork" to me now. ehehehe. er. but yes. good thing writers grow ^^;;
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Date: 2003-02-09 06:58 pm (UTC)mwuwahahahaha!! I KNOW YOUR SECRET NOW!!!
:shifty look: maybe, maybe not.
really, the only writing that is guaranteed to make me a quivering mess is a good mindfuck. the best. doesn't happen often, but when it does... like, A Nomad of the Time Streams had me quivering in my bed. literally.
there are some pieces of writing that affected me greatly and then took a very long time for me to be able to look at coherently. like mercedes lackey's valdemar series. my god, i read those when i was 14 and fell in love. you couldn't say a bad thing about them. now i fully recognize them for the ~ahem~ crap they are. misty has shit writing abilities and wonderfully alive characters- deadly to the reader. so i can understand about IP. sometimes rationality isn't a part of it.
:sighs:
that's too bad your ex has made you twitchy to moorcock. but when i head back to the states i can do my best to remedy the situation. and you can lend me your gaiman, since i should give it a try. =^-^=
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Date: 2003-02-09 07:24 pm (UTC)and you know, just recently i got her newest valdemar book. i couldn't resist. it's so evil. i can't even -stand- her actual style. but i just... have a soft spot for the world.
i was like, 15 ^^ hee. one of my top five favorite fantasy books at one time was `elvenbane' by her and andre norton. which i would -still- argue is the best thing she's ever written.
if you wanted something with dragons and elves and like... cool stuff (ahahah brilliant reviewer reena strikes again)... yah, you could read it.
of course, these days, i could actually want it -because- it's bad.
unless it's jkr. then i just run away. eheheh ^^
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Date: 2003-02-09 05:26 am (UTC)Eeee. reena, I love the way you make me think and make me want to write and make me think about what I should write. Must... write... adequate... sex... scene.
*runs, stares, frets, scribbles*
As for the ending....!
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Date: 2003-02-09 05:04 pm (UTC)if i have inspired you on that front, well, my mission is complete, i think >:D<
i often think i sound so harebrained, because um... i write before i think, or think -as- i write, and i don't really know if it's er... coherent, most of the time (and often enough, i don't think it is).
but y'know, it's such a -pleasure- (for me, anyway), picking at the process and thinking about it, and especially getting input from other writers. this communal sort of thing, mutual inspiration. it's just priceless.
not as humongously rewarding as reading or writing, but still something i wouldn't want to do without~:)
and i'm really happy if i do, in fact, contribute :D
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Date: 2003-02-09 08:45 am (UTC)I have great hopes for The Losing Side and To Rule in Hell in terms of the WIP that fulfills its promise. And especially for Sins of the Father--that fic to me is currently the one that's "getting it right" in the most number of ways.
but what if there was no twist? i just want to see that. i don't think i have. if i thought it'd help, i'd say this was a challenge, but it's not, really. just a question.
The thing is that I don't think that any of us have written with the intention to impose a "twist" on our fics. Well, MPI, obviously is the exception, but I'm pretty sure Fran, Maya, Dahlia, and I (certain in my case) didn't set out to create a universe that was 'different' from JKR's, one that had its own special quirk that set it apart. You could say that the fact that they're all future fics is a twist in and of itself, but beyond that I think we probably all just set out to be as true to the characters as we could. The twist comes from the fact that nobody's interpretation of any given situation will ever be the same. The only way you could write a fic that *didn't* have some kind of twist by your description is to have JKR herself write exactly the kind of fiction you're describing--and even then we'd probably be going, 'but that's not how it's supposed to be!'
get my point?
In terms of sex, I really think Seeker to Seeker had the best and most fascinatingly realistic depiction of the natural progression of Harry and Draco's sex life from violent to tender, apart from the 'twist' being that they're doing it all as a bet. Certainly it had the delicious 'we're insane oh my god do that AGAIN!' aspect down to a heartbeat.
*more*
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Date: 2003-02-09 02:11 pm (UTC)but. i'll try, because i'm so pleased at the con crit (& since it's you especially~:)
i do realize that a definite personalization is almost inevitable. but there -are- height of attainment that could be reached. i dunno. like... a good fic is one thing... there's a number of those. a fic that makes me believe these are these characters doing this, is another.
i always find that as soon as harry & draco kiss or want each other, that believability that is easy enough to have beforehand really starts to crumble. a lot of fics are believable within the first couple of pages, if they're even remotely good... and yet, these are a lot of different sorts of beginnings i'm referring to. but then, something just-- bends. it turns into something of a romance novel, usually. it always seems to happen-- characteristics of other sorts of people seem to attach themselves to them, if only during intimacy. perhaps it's almost like it's all -too- perfect, too well-constructed, too well-tuned, so often, i don't know.
i too have thought that this whole idea of sex as in-character as the beginning of `sins of the father' is like, a myth i make up for myself. but i don't think i'm -that- hard to please... i mean, seriously, that's why i brought up `tickle me pink', eheheh. with harry and draco, you have to change them, i guess, to get them together. which bothers me, because it means that the people who're together are markedly different than the people you started out with. that, or the people you started out with are kinder, gentler, more sensitive versions of harry & draco.
but just because i'm trying to escape `romantically rough sex' or `romantically tender sex' doesn't' mean i think it's more in character to be the opposite extreme, you know? `seeker to seeker' significantly played with both harry & draco's initial characteristics, i feel anyway. her harry rang pretty wrong to me, sort of the way a harry that ever accepts any sort of "deal with the devil" or questionably moral thing that -he didn't think of- would feel wrong to me. plus, she sort of changed their dynamic from the start, ie, draco never really seriously -hated- him or wished him ill in a petty way, just acted like a rival....
all i really want is for h/d sex to be as evenly in-character as like, a pg-13 gen fic. it's not like i'm -so- picky, it's just i do think it's possible... or maybe not. you're right, `seeker to seeker' attempted sex without prior emotional resolution, but to do so it went pretty far afield, -i- think. maybe because sex implies a prior emotional shift, the quirks of the story would heavily influence it and make it a part of the story rather than something that could exist outside that particular story.
like, say a generic scenario type thing, like, "harry and draco do detention" (sans romance). but you can't do believable sex without backstory and romance and all sorts of unique quirks, i guess. although, i'd still like to see less teenage sex-goddiness and more dorkiness~:)
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Date: 2003-02-09 08:46 am (UTC)I think you're specifically referring to obake's plot points here, and that makes it kind of hard to extrapolate this argument and attempt a response but I'll try:
I think DV is an excellent example of clues that are clues "because they're there" and not because the author is subtly hinting at something. RE the DV11 kiss, Cassie said that the answer is in something obscure that Draco has mentioned only once. It's a fic wherein if it's in there, it's a clue. Her readers expect this, and read it accordingly. Should we expect every fic to have that kind of tightly compacted controlled plot? Of course not. I think authors who strive for it, or at least in my case attempt to insert plot elements early on that won't come into play for much later, are placing a good deal of faith in our readers to recognize things upon re-reads and careful examination, and yes, a good part of the payoff is in retrospect, when you're reading something in chapter one and going, 'oh, so *that's* why that's there in chapter 38!' That kind of structure is something I enjoy in planning and something I don't expect everybody to follow or appreciate; but I love writing it that way, so I do.
The question of whether authorial intent is the be-all/end-all of reader interpretation is a big one. I for one would like to *think* that it is, haha. I know that when earlier on someone was having problems with my characterisation in LUW, in ways that *I* knew would only be resolved in future chapters because I knew where the story was heading, I felt a little bad saying 'you're just going to have to trust me.' but that's essentially what any reader does when picking up a book. We're totally in the hands of authorial intent. It's just in a WIP that the status isn't as clear because not everything is known at once, and you the readers can interact with the authors and say 'okay, what's this about?' It's only in a WIP where you have a risk of 'a significant departure' from earlier themes and have it be a detriment to the work on the whole, because if you were reading it in one sitting as a completed novel, the departure itself could easily be seen as the point of the story. Not so with a WIP.
i should remember unreliability of narrators and not everything being as it seems and so on and so forth, but... i suppose i'm used to -thinking- and having some sort of opinion and reaction to things immediately, rather than only at the end, after everything is said and done.
I would wonder what fics of the few that have been completed have satisfied your notion of sticking to the themes and resolving them. What fics among the WIP's consistently make you think *during* the reading from chapter to chapter as well as during comprehensive re-reads? I would examine what those fics do that make sense from your perspective. Is the authorial intent shown in them something that validates your own reader experience and expectations? Or is it something that makes you go, 'oh, i hadn't thought about it like that but now i am and it's making even more sense.' I think that the best fics out there do both. And I think that the best reader interpretations consequently use authorial intent as the cornerstone for their own judgments about a fic.
*has run out of things to say*
did that make sense? am distracted and have taken forever to post this little bit so if i'm completely incoherent, forgive me.
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Date: 2003-02-13 10:59 am (UTC)It's just in a WIP that the status isn't as clear because not everything is known at once, and you the readers can interact with the authors and say 'okay, what's this about?'
hmm. well, the problem i had with this fic (and you're right, my issues are with atd in particular) is that she meant for it to be taken a certain way without actually ever -suggesting- or pointing the reader in that direction. if you intend the reader to not misunderstand, then you should try to be more obvious. unless you -mean- the reader to think something else at first, and i don't think she did.
and yes, the fics that make sense to me and feel the most complete do so on both a within-the-fic level and on my own personal judgement. luw and ip do that, off the top of my head. ivy's stuff never really felt off (in origins anyway). it all unfolded with complete gracefulness, and the events seemed to link up to each other and build upon themselves.
i can't think of a finished work that is book-sized and that is something i thought deeply about while reading. olympia's stuff both confused me and seemed transparent (except not cross-character), in a strange way, throughout, beginning to end. `protective bonds' and `unthinkable thoughts' doesn't even bear such analysis and i just read them as fluff.
ip always managed to make me think both while reading and going and re-reading, because it seems like things shift slightly yet significantly there all the time, and the meanings grow and multiply later.
i don't know. i just want it to work immediately, as well as later on. it might be a -slight- mystery, but it has to fit at the time it's introduced, too, otherwise it's just weird and jangly, like a red herring or something.
and you're right, maybe i demand too much, but this lack of jangliness is just a component i need to enjoy the fic as i read it, so it's kind of essential~:)
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Date: 2003-02-09 10:10 am (UTC)Yes, absolutely. Fifteen is all about petty violence and bad, fumbling sex! But, you know. That's terribly endearing. ;)
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Date: 2003-02-09 10:22 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 10:37 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-02-09 01:37 pm (UTC)i only meant that draco is a shrimp, you know. shouldn't he act like more of a shrimp?? *giggles*
it could at least be pathetic, dorky, ineffectual violence. see, they're always these muscularly-endowed, surprisingly-strong-and-lithe Seeker Types. see, okay, he may push harry, trip harry, try to hit harry if he's -really- beside himself... but it's not like he's some sort of brawler, ehehehe.
i didn't mean the lack of all-out violence is because they're so sweet and gentle and in love. i meant it's just-- er. well, okay, boys fight but, draco in particular is... er... kind of an `all bark no bite' sort of bully, i -think-, and harry has never been violent and he's had lots of provocation.
it's just the whole -cliche- and frequent use of violence as catalyst is questionable. even though, you know, i dig it >:D