~~wherein reena says dirty words.
Jan. 30th, 2003 09:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaso... i haven't really ranted on this before, but--
yes. hp slashy smut writing, realism, in-character kink and so on. w00t!
ha. i can't even believe i'm talking about this. well, there are several factors why. firstly, i'm thinking/writing my smutfic for aja. secondly, there's the discussion about the unrealistic sex prevalent in fanfic (on the `hp outer circle' list)-- ie, "monster cocks" and unrealistic bdsm and such in (hp) slash.
well, as a smut reader, i haven't really found that unrealistic sex is the biggest problem, more like, really dry and unexciting and "and then slot went into conjunction with slot b" type of sex. but that's just me. as a writer, i'm of course, somewhat paranoid, because far be it from me to think i write realistic anything, forget gay sex. i mean, people may -like- it, but people are easy when it comes to smut. aren't they?
but anyway, there's always a lot of cross-fandom discussion about how to make gay sex more realistic and true-to-life and um... correct. these are typically also the people who want "realistically gay male" characters, and of course that is perfectly understandable, for who really -wants- "girls with dicks" anyway (er... ok, i won't go there).
but it occurred to me that all this really doesn't matter to me. what matters to me is emotional realism and intensity and desire and power-play and passion. and when i say "power play", i don't mean bdsm, because that's just the shortcut people use. real power-play occurs all the time, between every couple, in a million gazillion different ways. but, in the case of harry & draco, it's inevitable-- they're competitive, they're antagonistic, there's going to be a struggle to dominate, and i don't mean who gets to be on the bottom.
far too many sex scenes are written less emotionally than some descriptions of soccer matches i've seen. and of course there are those that seem sappier than a care-bears reunion, obviously, as well. either there's lots of curt, minimalist description that seems to rely almost entirely on the reader's finding that particular set of actions extremely sexy (ie, you'd have to operate very visually, and need the barest suggestion of action in order to visualize not only the actual sex, but the emotions that go along). or, there's almost a complete dearth of visual/physical description, which not only tends to use euphemisms for what it -does- describe, but may even use metaphors and pat phrases for the -emotional- component as well (ie, "their hearts flowed like butter as they tenderly embraced, their bodies moving in unison as they reached their final, most soul-wrenching pleasure" or something).
i find that a bigger problem than what size of cock the writer describes, or whether they used lube or not. who bloody well cares if they used lube or how or why, if it's written like a cellphone-usage manual? what are you, filming it??! making a sex-ed movie? what??
i've said this awhile ago, to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
earthquake1906. what i think is most important for a well-done sex scene is the transmission of the character's desire. a psychological portrait, showing their need, their fear, their desperation-- putting the reader in their heads, letting them see and feel and know what's going on. of course, describing the physical actions is also important-- as important as at any other time in the story. because sex is a mixture of inner landscape and body-language. that is it. there is no necessary dialogue, no rules and no framework, really. almost anything can be "sex" to the characters.
the scenes i found most successful used the emotional momentum and drive of the previous scenes, of the rest of the story, to set up a situation where desire and circumstance come together and everything kind of connects and um... climaxes, so to speak. ahem. and you have some sort of reflection of their dynamic for the rest of the fic-- angry, empty, sad, desperate, tender, v. v. horny ("ack! have to have you NOW!").... i think when the sex is a basic part of the narrative, it doesn't matter whether there's lube or not, it's realistic.
and of course, conversely, the sex can be the most anatomically correct thing to come down the pike since the latest "big book of gay sex" came out or whatever, but if it doesn't seem to make complete sense that it's happening right then, between these two people, it's worthless to me (and a talented writer can set up this believability within mere paragraphs. it doesn't take chapters and chapters of set-up or anything)..
maybe i just don't get it. i mean, it's not like i want to see endless orgies of neverending teenage-boy endurance, monstrous-sized penises and orgasms by nipple-biting, or whatever unrealistic thing. but what good writer does that? that's ridiculous. who even -describes- the size of the penis, for gahd's sake? that's just lame to start with. i mean, describing the penis is one thing, if you're using a character's pov who'd be looking at it and paying attention. suddenly turning the character into a porn-star is another.
also, i was thinking about bdsm in the context of hp slash and had to admit that i just "don't get it". i mean, i've seen people rant about how it's important to have realistic bdsm and so on... but what this doesn't bring into question is -why- and -how- you're using this in your story. the only people who'd have enough experience to possibly do it "realistically" is adults. as i haven't read any adult slash, i wouldn't know how it all works, but the major adult pairing is sirius/remus where i'd -seriously- doubt there'd be any humiliation/overt power rituals involved. since they're friends, and stuff.
this brings up another point. why are you writing these characters into this scenario. just because it's a sexual scenario doesn't mean you could be out-of-character and it would be ok. and yes, i believe there's definitely such a thing as in-character sex. most definitely. and i think writer learning this is miles more important than writers learning the proper realistic gay male behavior during sex. more than a gay male, this is a particular character. a character who (like a "real person") has things they wouldn't be caught dead doing, sexually. things that they have "issues" with. things they probably would balk at. things they wouldn't know about. and so on.
i guess i just see a lot of sex-scenes written which are blatantly just an extension of the writer's happy little fantasy world. it doesn't matter to the writer -who- the characters are, as much as what they're doing. this is my impression from every draco/lucius incest and harry/lucius and draco/snape (and arguably harry/snape) fic that i've ever read. there is argument, even, whether liking draco is in character for harry at all. to make it -lucius-, and then to make it consensual, and then to make it bdsm, is completely disregarding almost everything about harry. of course, if it's nonconsensual pwp, once again i call into question why the author writes it, but it's ok, masturbation is a good thing (er, and just because it doesn't "do it" for me, doesn't mean that spreading the sexy is a bad thing either-- it's just worthless as far as literature goes).
so again. what is with this need for realism of bdsm scenes in a fandom like harry potter, where i would argue there is -no- realistic pairing that would easily incorporate it? this is realistic bdsm for the sake of realistic bdsm, and if you're that eager to write/read that, why not just, oh, i dunno, do it or something?
and anyway. slash by nature is written about (seemingly) straight guys, who may or may not have had experience with girls, but certainly haven't had much (or, to be safe, any) experience with guys. these people are likely to be reticent and clumsy and inexperienced when it comes to their initial sexual interactions with another male. bdsm is a kink. it is something people do when "normal" sex isn't enough, isn't arousing enough, isn't exciting enough. they need... more. whereas for -these- guys, being attracted to each other at all is likely to be like a frying pan hitting them on the side of the head. um. overwhelming. shocking. (probably) very arousing, as in-- unusual and new and exciting.
you would have to justify two characters wanting to enact these elaborate power-play rituals with each other. why are they doing this? how does this fit into their relationship? are you sure this is what they'd want? and would they go about it in quite that way, or would they just act on the whole instinctual, natural power-play that occurs in any relationship?
say it's tom riddle doing it with um... i dunno... ginny. there are not going to be any safe-words, that's for sure. i mean, in hp, anyone i can think of who'd want to be sadistic is basically a death-eater, and are evil to start with. this is a universe where evil is a very tangible thing. it's not a game. it's not a fantasy. it's life and death and it's happening all the time, completely outside of the bedroom. that is not so say, there isn't likely to be power-play in the bedroom just because some things are just a -tad- more... blatant than in "real life", already, in this universe. i'm just saying, in the potterverse, sadism isn't really a game, not even at hogwarts. being a slytherin, being mean, being cunning and amoral isn't a joke. it's all taken pretty seriously. you're in or you're out. slytherins vs. gryffindors, light vs. dark.
you'd have to set up your s&m in that context. and if it's between main players-- especially characters on opposite sides of this divide-- you'd have to really question what you're saying, here. if they're adults, they're either sadistic and evil or good and kind (in most blunt terms). if they're teenagers, they probably don't have enough experience to get too kinky. anyway. i think i ran out of steam, again ^^;;
yes. hp slashy smut writing, realism, in-character kink and so on. w00t!
ha. i can't even believe i'm talking about this. well, there are several factors why. firstly, i'm thinking/writing my smutfic for aja. secondly, there's the discussion about the unrealistic sex prevalent in fanfic (on the `hp outer circle' list)-- ie, "monster cocks" and unrealistic bdsm and such in (hp) slash.
well, as a smut reader, i haven't really found that unrealistic sex is the biggest problem, more like, really dry and unexciting and "and then slot went into conjunction with slot b" type of sex. but that's just me. as a writer, i'm of course, somewhat paranoid, because far be it from me to think i write realistic anything, forget gay sex. i mean, people may -like- it, but people are easy when it comes to smut. aren't they?
but anyway, there's always a lot of cross-fandom discussion about how to make gay sex more realistic and true-to-life and um... correct. these are typically also the people who want "realistically gay male" characters, and of course that is perfectly understandable, for who really -wants- "girls with dicks" anyway (er... ok, i won't go there).
but it occurred to me that all this really doesn't matter to me. what matters to me is emotional realism and intensity and desire and power-play and passion. and when i say "power play", i don't mean bdsm, because that's just the shortcut people use. real power-play occurs all the time, between every couple, in a million gazillion different ways. but, in the case of harry & draco, it's inevitable-- they're competitive, they're antagonistic, there's going to be a struggle to dominate, and i don't mean who gets to be on the bottom.
far too many sex scenes are written less emotionally than some descriptions of soccer matches i've seen. and of course there are those that seem sappier than a care-bears reunion, obviously, as well. either there's lots of curt, minimalist description that seems to rely almost entirely on the reader's finding that particular set of actions extremely sexy (ie, you'd have to operate very visually, and need the barest suggestion of action in order to visualize not only the actual sex, but the emotions that go along). or, there's almost a complete dearth of visual/physical description, which not only tends to use euphemisms for what it -does- describe, but may even use metaphors and pat phrases for the -emotional- component as well (ie, "their hearts flowed like butter as they tenderly embraced, their bodies moving in unison as they reached their final, most soul-wrenching pleasure" or something).
i find that a bigger problem than what size of cock the writer describes, or whether they used lube or not. who bloody well cares if they used lube or how or why, if it's written like a cellphone-usage manual? what are you, filming it??! making a sex-ed movie? what??
i've said this awhile ago, to
earthquake1906. what i think is most important for a well-done sex scene is the transmission of the character's desire. a psychological portrait, showing their need, their fear, their desperation-- putting the reader in their heads, letting them see and feel and know what's going on. of course, describing the physical actions is also important-- as important as at any other time in the story. because sex is a mixture of inner landscape and body-language. that is it. there is no necessary dialogue, no rules and no framework, really. almost anything can be "sex" to the characters. the scenes i found most successful used the emotional momentum and drive of the previous scenes, of the rest of the story, to set up a situation where desire and circumstance come together and everything kind of connects and um... climaxes, so to speak. ahem. and you have some sort of reflection of their dynamic for the rest of the fic-- angry, empty, sad, desperate, tender, v. v. horny ("ack! have to have you NOW!").... i think when the sex is a basic part of the narrative, it doesn't matter whether there's lube or not, it's realistic.
and of course, conversely, the sex can be the most anatomically correct thing to come down the pike since the latest "big book of gay sex" came out or whatever, but if it doesn't seem to make complete sense that it's happening right then, between these two people, it's worthless to me (and a talented writer can set up this believability within mere paragraphs. it doesn't take chapters and chapters of set-up or anything)..
maybe i just don't get it. i mean, it's not like i want to see endless orgies of neverending teenage-boy endurance, monstrous-sized penises and orgasms by nipple-biting, or whatever unrealistic thing. but what good writer does that? that's ridiculous. who even -describes- the size of the penis, for gahd's sake? that's just lame to start with. i mean, describing the penis is one thing, if you're using a character's pov who'd be looking at it and paying attention. suddenly turning the character into a porn-star is another.
also, i was thinking about bdsm in the context of hp slash and had to admit that i just "don't get it". i mean, i've seen people rant about how it's important to have realistic bdsm and so on... but what this doesn't bring into question is -why- and -how- you're using this in your story. the only people who'd have enough experience to possibly do it "realistically" is adults. as i haven't read any adult slash, i wouldn't know how it all works, but the major adult pairing is sirius/remus where i'd -seriously- doubt there'd be any humiliation/overt power rituals involved. since they're friends, and stuff.
this brings up another point. why are you writing these characters into this scenario. just because it's a sexual scenario doesn't mean you could be out-of-character and it would be ok. and yes, i believe there's definitely such a thing as in-character sex. most definitely. and i think writer learning this is miles more important than writers learning the proper realistic gay male behavior during sex. more than a gay male, this is a particular character. a character who (like a "real person") has things they wouldn't be caught dead doing, sexually. things that they have "issues" with. things they probably would balk at. things they wouldn't know about. and so on.
i guess i just see a lot of sex-scenes written which are blatantly just an extension of the writer's happy little fantasy world. it doesn't matter to the writer -who- the characters are, as much as what they're doing. this is my impression from every draco/lucius incest and harry/lucius and draco/snape (and arguably harry/snape) fic that i've ever read. there is argument, even, whether liking draco is in character for harry at all. to make it -lucius-, and then to make it consensual, and then to make it bdsm, is completely disregarding almost everything about harry. of course, if it's nonconsensual pwp, once again i call into question why the author writes it, but it's ok, masturbation is a good thing (er, and just because it doesn't "do it" for me, doesn't mean that spreading the sexy is a bad thing either-- it's just worthless as far as literature goes).
so again. what is with this need for realism of bdsm scenes in a fandom like harry potter, where i would argue there is -no- realistic pairing that would easily incorporate it? this is realistic bdsm for the sake of realistic bdsm, and if you're that eager to write/read that, why not just, oh, i dunno, do it or something?
and anyway. slash by nature is written about (seemingly) straight guys, who may or may not have had experience with girls, but certainly haven't had much (or, to be safe, any) experience with guys. these people are likely to be reticent and clumsy and inexperienced when it comes to their initial sexual interactions with another male. bdsm is a kink. it is something people do when "normal" sex isn't enough, isn't arousing enough, isn't exciting enough. they need... more. whereas for -these- guys, being attracted to each other at all is likely to be like a frying pan hitting them on the side of the head. um. overwhelming. shocking. (probably) very arousing, as in-- unusual and new and exciting.
you would have to justify two characters wanting to enact these elaborate power-play rituals with each other. why are they doing this? how does this fit into their relationship? are you sure this is what they'd want? and would they go about it in quite that way, or would they just act on the whole instinctual, natural power-play that occurs in any relationship?
say it's tom riddle doing it with um... i dunno... ginny. there are not going to be any safe-words, that's for sure. i mean, in hp, anyone i can think of who'd want to be sadistic is basically a death-eater, and are evil to start with. this is a universe where evil is a very tangible thing. it's not a game. it's not a fantasy. it's life and death and it's happening all the time, completely outside of the bedroom. that is not so say, there isn't likely to be power-play in the bedroom just because some things are just a -tad- more... blatant than in "real life", already, in this universe. i'm just saying, in the potterverse, sadism isn't really a game, not even at hogwarts. being a slytherin, being mean, being cunning and amoral isn't a joke. it's all taken pretty seriously. you're in or you're out. slytherins vs. gryffindors, light vs. dark.
you'd have to set up your s&m in that context. and if it's between main players-- especially characters on opposite sides of this divide-- you'd have to really question what you're saying, here. if they're adults, they're either sadistic and evil or good and kind (in most blunt terms). if they're teenagers, they probably don't have enough experience to get too kinky. anyway. i think i ran out of steam, again ^^;;
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(now is when I really miss my "protect me from what I want" icon)
Date: 2003-01-30 09:48 pm (UTC)Dude. EXACTLY.
I have issues with your conception of BSDM, though:
the only people who'd have enough experience to possibly do it "realistically" is adults. as i haven't read any adult slash, i wouldn't know how it all works, but the major adult pairing is sirius/remus where i'd -seriously- doubt there'd be any humiliation/overt power rituals involved. since they're friends, and stuff.
While I agree that it's stupid indeed to write BDSM just for the sake of it, I don't think that either adulthood (in the sense of not being someone who is over-the-age-of-consent-but-still-a-teen-and/or-student) or actual power issues in the *relationship* are necessary for that. Yes, a character should be able to be written IC with the BSSM component - so goodie-goodies who are actually honestly terrified of their own sexuality are unlikely to suggest a BDSM scene... but, who knows, maybe letting a lover tie them up and give them the *illusion* of helplessness is exactly what that character needs to be able to let go and enjoy their sexuality openly and without guilt.
I'm writing this as someone who is a (albeit relatively casual) participant in the BDSM/kink scene. I've participated in, and especially, watched, more bondage and flogging and other forms of dom/sub interactions than I can really count. And one thing I think should be clarified is that while some people do take the dom/sub dynamic outside of the sexual scenario, for many people it isn't the defining factor in their relationship. In fact there are a lot of us who "switch" between dom and sub from partner to partner or even from scene to scene. I see no need whatsoever for a character to have a sadistic *personality* streak to be capable of performing a sexually sadist act, for example. After all, a huge part of the kink allure is the roleplaying.
And one other quick quibble with your defining kink as 'something people do when "normal" sex isn't enough' - I think everyone I know who's kinky is also quite able to enjoy, and regularly practices, "vanilla" sex. It's just that the kink adds something more, sometimes, allows you to experiment with ways of being and feeling, to connect with different parts of yourself. It's one way of seeking a more complete and fulfilling overall lifelong experience of your sexuality.
Re: (now is when I really miss my "protect me from what I want" icon)
Date: 2003-01-30 09:49 pm (UTC)I have to disagree there... I'm completely uninterested in reading Harry/Lucius, but when I try to imagine an IC version of the ship dynamic, that's basically what I get. Harry going to Lucius because he *wants* to be whipped, or tied up, or whatever. Perhaps because he's afraid no one "normal" (ie his own age) will do it for him. Why would Harry want that? Think about being a messed up kid growing up emotionally abused but rarely touched. I could see him quite easily coming to a place where the only way he allows himself to enjoy sexual touching is if it's "forced" on him, by someone he hates - so that he can pretend to himself on some level that he didn't like it, that he hates his lover for doing it. Think about hoe emotionally safe that would be for Harry. He doesn't have to worry about losing love if he knows it was never there. Utterly messed up, yes. But potentially IC.
i'm just saying, in the potterverse, sadism isn't really a game
Exactly. I think that's why, for some of our main characters, especially some of the more psycologically messed up ones (Harry, Draco, Snape, Ginny), BDSM etc can be something they would turn to in a very IC way. Laugh at what scares you. Ironically, several of the friends I have in the kink community have been through sexual abuse, for example. They are very clear with their partners ahead of time about where they draw their lines, and there are always safewords, but sometimes, experiencing voluntary powerlessness can be part of what helps a person feel free.
Re: (now is when I really miss my "protect me from what I want" icon)
Date: 2003-01-30 10:25 pm (UTC)*personality* streak to be capable of performing a sexually sadist act
hmm. you really gave me a lot to think about.
i admit i know v. little about this (more than -some- but not enough), so that's why i was kind of laughing at myself for doing it at all...
hmm. it seems you alternated between saying there's no need for an actual sadistic personality trait/dynamic in the relationship, and it's just an exploration of possibilities, a roleplay, and saying that they're so messed up, they could get into it -because- it wasn't a game.
well, it's the "exploring alternatives" thing that strikes me as weird for the student characters (y'know, either virgins or pretty close), anyway. since they've barely started, why are they exploring alternatives?
as far as between adult/student or adult/adult (which i have v. little experience with)... i can see your point.
i mean, i -hate- the whole, "let's write a self-hating harry" thing, sexually or otherwise, but.... and i -still- don't think he'd -ever- touch lucius malfoy, a death-eater, a servant of the guy who killed his parents, but...
yah. it's just, with harry, anyway, yes he's had all this baggage, but canonically so far, he -seems- to be you know... relatively stable. brave, loyal, witty, social (to a point), moral, and so on. to harry, there are "bad people" who he doesn't want to associate with. if he were to want punishment/anything else from those "bad people" wouldn't he have to have "fallen" in ways other than sexual? which is automatically an AU type of harry, and i'm not sure how that relates to in-characterness vs out-of-characterness.
maybe the whole "scene" & "role-playing" thing seems so... muggle to me. i dunno.
i suppose wizards role-play. heh. lockhart and stuff... but i dunno.
just, the line between role-play and real would be weird to tread, somewhere where evil is so blatant and omnipresent and pervasive.
and if it -is- real, like say, i'm pretty sure harry/lucius would be (because you see, lucius -does- want to hurt harry)... it gets all weird.
i can see harry wanting to give up control, easily, yes. but you can do that with simple physical overpowering, with tying someone's hands or using a spell-- and here we start with the whole, "but would they use spells?" thing.
plenty of sex-scenes written about harry & draco have harry give up control as much as draco, and it not have an impact on the way they act around each other usually (ie, there are believable fics where harry is the "bottom" but is normal, independent harry all the rest of the time, or whatever).
just, while torture is a throwback to the middle ages in a way-- whips, chains, dungeons, leather, metal-- in the wizarding world, this is still happening in real life. there are dungeons in malfoy manor that most probably aren't used for play.
and that's what really bothers me about the idea of making bdsm in the potterverse muggle-realistic. because the associations seem all different to me.
but yes, i realize i made some blatant errors, and thanks for calling me on them ^^
Re: (now is when I really miss my "protect me from what I want" icon)
Date: 2003-01-30 11:08 pm (UTC)it seems you alternated between saying there's no need for an actual sadistic personality trait/dynamic in the relationship, and it's just an exploration of possibilities, a roleplay, and saying that they're so messed up, they could get into it -because- it wasn't a game.
Hmm, I guess there were really two things I was trying to say. One, is that in a *healthy* relationship (ie, of the kind that Harry and Draco are often portrayed as, at least eventually, having, or of the typical Sirius/Remus "best friends + lovers" fic), BDSM and roleplays of all sorts can be bedroom activities that don't much impact the way the couple relates to each other in the nonsexual spheres of their lives.
Two, is that in an *unhealthy* relationship, such as in a fic where Harry has sought out Lucius deliberately to be abused (and perhaps *because* he knows the lines are to be blurred), there is a legitimate case to be made that his desire could be directly related to his own neuroses, insecurities, lack of self-worth, and desire to avoid adult responsibilities.
I should probably say for the record that I think people get into kinks for all sorts of reasons, some healthy, some not. Most of the folks I know are lucky in that, even if they have some unhealthy motivations behind their desires, they understand that and are able to, I guess, rise above it and reclaim their enjoyment of that part of themselves. I imagine though that there are probably also people who do use kink the way my Harry in the Lucius example does.
On the "why are virgins seeking to explore alternatives" thing, I dunno. Some fics make it work, some don't. I highly doubt that most teen virgins would seek out a kinky experience as their first, second, or even third sexual act. But I for one knew from a very young age some of the kinks I was interested in... *if* I'd been lucky enough to have an open, understanding, and accepting lover when I was, say, 16, I can indeed imagine having wanted to explore them too. I can easily picture the sensation of sudden closeness with a new lover, as a teenager, to be a kind of rush of "wow, I can share anything with this person!" which could easily give to a desire to trust that person with everything, both the fantasy and the reality of following through with it. I can't speak from certainty though, as I wasn't lucky enough to have a lover as a teenager at all, but then, the early ages at which most fic characters have sex is an entirely different discussion :D.
2nd response, part 2
Date: 2003-01-30 11:10 pm (UTC)I'll give you that, but I'm not entirely sure about it. I think JKR portrays Harry as very stable, but I'll be very curious to see whether she has the GoF events affect him at all. If she doesn't, she'll either be portraying him as inhuman, or as deeply, dysfunctionally out of touch with his own emotions and the ability to express them. We've seen Harry become obsessive in canon (ie, the "Am I the Heir of Slytherin" angst), and we've seen him similarly slip into what, if the books weren't told from his POV, might look like adolescent depression. JKR portrays him as someone easily able to bounce back, and well-grounded, but at the same time, I think there's enough in canon to make a good case for a messed-up IC Harry.
Particularly, we have no idea how his budding sexuality will affect him (even if we assume JKR's Harry is straight as an arrow). For many people, after all, sexuality brings up all sorts of issues, and often brings up long-buried childhood issues of a nonsexual nature that have become part of a person's personal neuroses and that get in the way of their being truly in touch with their sexuality. I guess I see it as very canon for any Harry older than the end of book 4 to have psychological issues, though I do think an author would have to provide more triggering circumstances than the end of GoF alone before Harry could get as far gone as the Harry of the H/L dynamic I talked about. But as a potential road he might take, yeah.
just, while torture is a throwback to the middle ages in a way-- whips, chains, dungeons, leather, metal-- in the wizarding world, this is still happening in real life. there are dungeons in malfoy manor that most probably aren't used for play.
and that's what really bothers me about the idea of making bdsm in the potterverse muggle-realistic. because the associations seem all different to me.
Very good point, that. I know that, for one, I find fics where Harry is into bondage but that make *no mention of any kind* of the fact that he was tied up and helpless through most of the graveyard scene of GoF to be less serious, and less believable, than fics where at least a passing reference is thrown in that Harry likes bondage *despite* that experience. I'd personally find it a ton more intriguing, and interesting to read, if he likes it *because* of his experiences, but hey, that's me. :D.
And personally, I have never found flogging much erotic, anyway, so fics that rely on it (mercifully I don't really recall any) wouldn't do much for me. I agree that it's a fine line to tread in situations like that, where the implements of the sexual scene would honestly resemble instruments of torture. What I'm defending in healthy-relationship fics, because I *do* think it works, for me, both erotically and characterizationally, is a 'softer' kind of BDSM, I guess. As in, maybe one of the boys is bound, but it's with scarves, or with soft ropes (bondage ropes are actually rather nice feeling), not with actual *painful for real* manacles of metal or anything. The most I can see any of the teens using is leather that's not padded on the inside, and even then, I doubt they'd think of it. (Actually, they might try unpadded leather cos that's what they could conjure up, then realize it actually hurts, and get annoyed with it and frustrated, and hey, that I can totally see :D).
2nd response, part 3
Date: 2003-01-30 11:11 pm (UTC)hehe. :D
Re: 2nd response, part 3
Date: 2003-02-01 07:43 am (UTC)yes, Erica, please write that fic!
*begs*
no subject
Date: 2003-01-31 12:16 am (UTC)I'm a raging switch, for one, and in my case being a sub is all about giving up control- a good analogy is that sometimes you have so much to handle, that at some point you don't want to handle things any more. I know a lot of my issues date back to that, in part because I had to mother my own mum when I was about 6, and upward.
Outside of it, I'm a fairly strong, in-control person myself, besides occasional mood swings and angst fits. My current relationship is monogamous, and we're best friends outside of pre-negotiation, so I could say that Sirius and Remus have a possibility of getting kinky, since my fiance and I do have a similar dynamic. We're not their age, but- it fits.
I'd suggest that if they do get kinky in-fic, that they probably have it scene-based, as opposed to 24/7 dom/sub arrangements (which I chafe at, and have disliked phenomenally). I'm not anyone's bitch when I'm in my own time and headspace, but it doesn't mean I don't like being one sometimes.
Just my two knuts.
-Mel
no subject
Date: 2003-01-31 02:11 am (UTC)Two issues really, to be addressed: that of whether there are characters in HP who would be very attuned to BDSM, and that of whether perfectly ordinary HP couples could still use BDSM.
For the first, I say go no further than your nearest Snapefic. Snape/Lupin in particular. That those two could have a very intense dom/sub relationship in the bedroom is something I don't doubt. But I do see your problems with the others - the kids, in particular. Whether or not they could enjoy it in later life, in the first year or two of sexuality they're very unlikely to try out kinks. (An exception being where one, most likely Draco, has been sexually abused as a child.)
Now onto the other question. Here I partly agree with you, and partly agree with Erica. Many couples who are generally happy and stable *could* experiment with BDSM, yes - but NOT until they had been together for some time and had achieved the kind of stability where they say "Dear, shall we try out something new in the bedroom?" Most Harry/Draco fics, which I know is the ship you're interested in, stop well before the pair have got that far into happy couplehood.
So for the part of the relationship arc that's spanned in a fic - most HP couples probably wouldn't try out BDSM unless there was a very definite trend that way in their personalities, *and* unless they had been sexually active for many years.
Now, there are different levels of BDSM. I'm an eighteen-year old with one previous lover, which was a long-term relationship, and am generally fairly vanilla in stuff - but the first thing that ever really turned me on was biting so intense as to draw blood, both the giving and the receiving. I don't know if I'd ever get into *proper* BDSM, and frankly I doubt if it'd ever get as far as, y'know, instruments and the like, but I have a tendency, and maybe a hell of a lot of us do.
(oh, and one last thing - yes, lube and the like *does* matter. If it's a bad scene in general, characterisation-wise, then yes, it's just one extra flaw, but why have that one extra flaw if you needn't? And no matter how well-drawn the characters and the language are, I need realism.)
no subject
Date: 2003-02-01 08:18 am (UTC)*loves the way you put things, precisely AND poetically*
*waves*
no subject
Date: 2003-02-01 11:55 am (UTC)but yes, i know there are definitely different levels of bdsm, though i don't know why/how you'd have realism for things like biting, you know? i mean, i did address that, kind of, i thought-- "natural power-play" and the like. i find that so natural as to not need a separation from "normal" sex-drives and tendencies, because yes, most definitely, i agree with you about a hell of a lot of us having "something".
i mean, i'm a pretty gentle person in practice, but in the end it comes down to not having had anyone drawing any aggression out of me, because i know it's -there- (if anything, i can write some pretty bloody/dark fic, so it must be coming from -somewhere-, eheheh).
well, i like realism too. and lube was just a flippant sort of thing because everyone brings it up a lot (though there are issues with it, such as how/why harry & draco would have it handy, though again, my instincts are silent on adult/student and adult/adult pairings). realism is a "Good Thing". mostly, i was just saying it's worthless to be so obsessed with sex-ed type realism when so many sex scenes are so... empty and don't feel right or real in a more general sense. i can forgive lack of lube, but not lack of consistency, desire & motivation. though that -is- a personal kink, sort of (desire & motivation~:)
Of human bondage
Date: 2003-01-31 04:21 am (UTC)First off, I had to laugh at this: what are you, filming it??!
Because when we reject fics at FA for going over the NC17 line, we tell them "Think of your fic as if it were a movie - if everything you write was filmed *exactly* as you've written it. If it's too much for an R-rated movie, it's too much for the fic." So -- in some ways, you *are* 'filming' it - you are creating a picture in someone's head rather than on the screen.
As for the BDSM issue - like Erica, I have participated passively in Bondage (not so much the DSM side) with a former lover who was into that. And I think there is a heck of a lot of misconception about who is into that, and what it's really like to play with it. If you were to pass this man on the street, he would appear completely ordinary, and not at all a control freak, and certainly not a passive wimp. But he likes to be tied up - it turns him on. He ties *himself* up for solo play.
I think it has to do with the fact that you are lmiting the way the person can move and interact with the sensations they are feeling. They cannot nudge you to touch anywhere else, they are at your mercy. It can be done safely with 'safe words' wherein the couple in question has a word like, oh, "pickle" which, if stated, REALLY means "I've had enough". ("No, stop" doesn't cut it, for obvious reasons.) So - in this context, whatever the bondage kink is, it doesn't have to be about what it always seems to be about in fic -- with more emphasis on the Domination than the Bondage.
It's not something I really can get into myself. But I also think it falls within the normal range of 'special interests' in sex, as much as role-play, or foods, or liking sex outdoors. And people will be secretly turned on to things in ways you wouldn't necessarily expect, so I'm not sure BD has to be considered OOC, regardless. But I also don't *like* true domination sex, where it's *not* play, but used by one character to humiliate and truly dominate (not just play at) the partner. It's too close to rape in my book.
As for the lube - I've seen people complain when it *isn't* mentioned. Women are naturally (if properly aroused) 'ready' to accept entrance. Men aren't. And the idea of doing it without the lube is -- ow! (Then again, I prefer to write oral/hand jobs, so I've only needed this once.)
Thus ends my babble. ;)
Re: Of human bondage
Date: 2003-02-01 11:41 am (UTC)for instance, i don't think harry would role-play. he's "just harry" in my mind, and whatever he did, it would be because it comes naturally to him.
but i don't have this instinctual response on the characterization of most other potterverse characters, so, you know, maybe~:)
and, like eq said later on, lube isn't something i would want to see done without, just, i don't know if it -needs- to be mentioned, just like, "and then he got up from his chair, after pushing it back and hearing it scrape, sighing, and walked slowly to the door, reaching his hand without realizing it, turning the doorknob and thinking about his supper, before he saw malfoy on the other side" needs to be said in quite that way~:) that's what i meant about "filming it"~:)
but anyway. bondage is more prevalent (-i- think) than merely in the bdsm context, so i wasn't considering it. i'm not sure there's such a thing as "realistic" bondage (you can tie someone up any old way), anyway. you can also spank someone any old way. now, ritualistic bdsm where there's a culture involved and -rules- and so on, and safe-words, is another thing altogether, see~:)
not that i would know ^^
Oops, sorry. Repost.
Date: 2003-01-31 09:42 am (UTC)If the students were going to participate in BDSM, I would think it would be pretty sloppy. Maybe even accidental. I was sexually active at that age, and it would never have occurred to me to be so forward as to tie someone's wrists to the bed. Of course, this is just coming from one person, but I think when you are just starting out sexually, you don't want to do anything wrong. I really cannot stand reading fics where Harry has never kissed anyone before Draco and then, a month later, he is tying Draco to the bed, etc. It just seems like if you were inexperienced, you would want to be guided.
I also don't buy it when the characters know exactly how to push each other's buttons. Harry taking his time to make Draco come, barely touching him. I mean, they are sixteen or so. I just don't see it happening, particularly from Harry.
One good example I think is in After the Flood, by Cassie, where after Draco pulls his shirt over his head, Harry tells him to stop. It isn't something Harry has planned out or anything. It is really quite accidental. I mean, it isn't BDSM, of course, but it is an example of them trying something New that works.
On the other hand, I disagree that Remus and Sirius couldn't be into BDSM just because they are friends. BDSM doesn't mean that the people participating have any hostile feelings for each other; it's just the way the two prefer to play it out. In fact, it seems to me that it would be better between two who are lifelong friends and trust each other completely. If you trust each other, you will feel more comfortable experimenting, knowing the other person won't go too far.
Re: Oops, sorry. Repost.
Date: 2003-01-31 10:43 am (UTC)What about Hermione? I could easily see her reading Muggle SM manuals.
And for the record, I've been very interested in BDSM since age 14. Granted, I was far too much of a clueless git to date anyone back then, so it never amounted to anything, but the interest was there. There is no reason to suppose that the characters couldn't have heard of it or wouldn't be interested just because they are inexperienced. If they can manage to admit they like someone, they could perhaps manage to admit what they like in bed.
Re: Oops, sorry. Repost.
Date: 2003-01-31 01:09 pm (UTC)See, but that is my exact problem. I am talking about Harry/Draco here, as that's mainly all I read. Generally (and of course I don't mean every fic), Harry has a lot of trouble dealing with his relationship with Draco. With the fact that he likes him, with learning how to kiss him, etc., and rightly so. He has just discovered he is gay and likes Malfoy of all people - it seems odd that BDSM would be the next item on his agenda.
Re: Oops, sorry. Repost.
Date: 2003-01-31 04:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2003-01-31 10:00 am (UTC)I do know what you mean, but I still can't read a scene without the lube in most cases. I'm not sure, but I think that this may be related to RL experience with anal sex. It's just not going to happen if there's no lube (well, ok, there are exceptions, but...). For me, it's like writing a scene where a girl is having her period and the fact is completely ignored during the sex. It's not that there aren't any anal sex scenes that I find believable without lube, but in general I keep asking myself why they didn't just go for oral sex or a handjob or something. (This is all a bit silly since some men don't like hand jobs so much without lube, but I digress...) In my experience, people discussing this issue usually either think that women should try to write gay male erotica, which isn't what they were going for if they like slash, or they think that no woman has ever had anal sex and that mentioning the lube is always extraneous. I tend to waffle between camps on this. If the scene is really specific, I really do need to hear about the lube to find it at all plausible. If it's a super vague, metaphorical scene, I'm a bit more forgiving.
who even -describes- the size of the penis, for gahd's sake?
Someone writing about a total size queen? I can see situations where this would be in character, but it would be hard to pull off.
i believe there's definitely such a thing as in-character sex.
Amen to that. Sadly, 'tis a rare beast and is rarely spotted in the wild.
I do defend the existence of wank-fic, but not in normal fandom circles. I've written gratuitous porn (not HP), but I didn't pretend it was fanfic.
bdsm is a kink. it is something people do when "normal" sex isn't enough, isn't arousing enough, isn't exciting enough. they need... more.
in hp, anyone i can think of who'd want to be sadistic is basically a death-eater, and are evil to start with.
if they're adults, they're either sadistic and evil or good and kind (in most blunt terms).
Hmm... That's an interesting view of BDSM. If a lifestyle person stumbled across it, they'd be screaming bloody murder. I'm not a serious scene person, though I have experimented with bondage a bit. I agree that your average Hogwarts student won't be trying branding and scarification any time soon, but I don't think that you can really make the statements above. BDSM is not about evil and true sadism, it's about fantasy.
A great many people have described their interest in BDSM as being similar to a sexual orientation. Many of them 'always knew' or were never interested in vanilla sex etc. I've run across some messed up people who were abused as kids who use BDSM as a twisted sort of therapy. I've known far more normal people who were just into it for whatever reason. I would argue that it's no different than slash as a kink: All sorts of people like it and for all sorts of reasons.
Granted, most HP BDSM scenes are about Harry or Snape or Sirius or whoever feeling guilty and wanting someone to beat them. I don't know whether I buy this or not. OTOH, I read a twincest BDSM fic that I thought was actually quite believable. For them it was about exploring trust and boundaries. I also read a Snape fic where he became a Death Eater because people couldn't accept (or he felt that they wouldn't accept) his masochism. I found that depressingly plausible.
an honorary size queen checks in
Date: 2003-02-01 08:10 am (UTC)Books! The source of so much terror and delight! But I digress.
After this roaring start I also took MANY wrong turns; to take just one example, I spent 15 years in a marriage that was het AND vanilla, before finally admitting to myself that I couldn't take any more. (I am also very VERY stubborn. But I digress again.)
(reena) who even -describes- the size of the penis, for gahd's sake?
This one is easy: someone who's been reading a lot of gay male porn outside of (or before she got into) the fandom, and believes its traditions are interesting and fun and worth paying homage to (or winking at).
(you, Franzi) Someone writing about a total size queen? I can see situations where this would be in character, but it would be hard to pull off.
Cannot resist noting that (although I am primarily a reviewer in this community) I have also written a mediocre H/D fic (my first in the fandom, has 2 major Britpick mistakes, obligatory disclaimer about how weak it is blah blah) in which Harry uses the term "size queen". It's at Astronomy Tower (http://www.astronomytower.org/authorLinks/Earthquake/): Expanded Version of a Timeless Classic. I'm not saying I pulled it off, but I did try.
*enjoying the discussion* / earthquake
A few (extraneous) extra comments
Date: 2003-02-01 05:42 am (UTC)Regarding unrealistic sex in fics, I would have to say that has been a complaint of mine for a long time. There are few fics reflecting the reality of first and early stage teenage sexual encounters, instead endowing our heroes with techniques, prowess and stamina undreamt of by the average (or even the experienced) 16 year old. I have to agree with the comments about the need to refer to lube (and more), but can live without such details in a fic which is not giving a frame by frame replay (where I would definitely notice their absence). However, since I regard fics as fantasy, I am fine with the lack of Sex Ed 101 (though hope no readers out there fail to educate themselves before a RL encounter). Having said that, though, I totally endorse your cry for emotional realism and relationship realism, and agree that “sex” covers a much wider spectrum of interactions than the shrink-wrapped manual. If only more writers could get the emotional part right, I could forgive a lot more about the unrealistic etc sex scenes.
As far as BDSM is concerned, I agree that some writers include it as playing out their own fantasy (as indeed much in fic is of the wish-fulfilment nature), and sometimes their inexperience shines through. Another of my pet peeves is that a lot of non-con is poorly written, showing an almost offensive ignorance of its dimensions and repercussions, instead using it as if it were indeed the fantasy which is role-playing in BDSM / power exchange. I would rather see fics with role playing BDSM than the PWP non-con horrors, as long as it works with the characters. I think BDSM unlikely as a first encounter between H&D, for example, but can see scenarios where merely holding down one’s partner, teasing and delaying gratification, for example could easily work for the characters’ dynamic. The power dynamic is about trust, not about humiliation. Showing that they have built up to this level of trust, to consent to power exchange sex, from their previous hostilities (I am thinking H/D dynamic here, as my favourite pair) speaks volumes about the relationship as a whole.
Re: A few (extraneous) extra comments
Date: 2003-02-01 11:32 am (UTC)and thanks, i'm glad i managed to get across so many of my points in a coherent manner to you~:) since everyone pretty much concentrated on my lack of insight about bdsm (which i admit to) and the unfortunate singling out of lube for a telling bit of "realism", i felt sort of lost and unsure as to how to respond.
but, i'm aware and wasn't contesting the in-characterness of a fic,
where merely holding down one’s partner, teasing and delaying gratification
is not enough to qualify anything for a bdsm fic, and actually would be included in the "natural power-play" i mentioned in my post~:)
though this is the most common sort of misunderstanding people got from my little rant, so i suppose i should be grateful ^^
anything natural, anything that can people can come up with on their own, is fine. my only unrealistic quibble is with stuff you have to -learn- and especially if you do it the -muggle- way, and especially if you do it the -latest-, -safest- muggle way, that is all.
but um, i'm -really- not suited to do more than state my opinion on this, so i'm just happy you agreed with so many points and i don't have to defend myself (because i don't know if i could, heh).
~reena
my handful of knuts
Date: 2003-02-01 08:51 am (UTC)*laughs*
reena, your thoughts on fics are always provocative. You can make me think AND laugh! What's not to like! I enjoy your fics but I also so love it when you do satire...
Moreover I am thrilled by all the answers and dialogue above me. Have just glomped a few, but I've read and enjoyed them all.
Since I am mentioned in the original entry, I will just tell everyone that reena and I have already very fruitfully discussed some of this stuff, on the occasion of my writing an H/D with kink in it, last summer. I understand that (paraphrasing) my sex scenes didn't feel sexy to reena, and that started a really interesting discussion, in which DancingRain made the point that maybe the dungeon bits weren't supposed to feel sexy. It was one of those glorious moments when a friend says something and suddenly I understand why I wrote what I wrote and like that. I still feel all glowy when I think about it, and it was months ago now.
Having said that, the original "fic with kink" (links below) represents my answers (not answers for everyone, just for me) to reena's questions in this post. I think everyone who wanted to read this has done so, but if you're into kink and haven't read this fic and decide to, please read this version (on my own site); the FAP version is fluff only.
Part I: Hedge of Thorns (http://www.earthquake1906.org/hot_ocb_1r.htm) (fluff)
Part II: Only Castles Burning (http://www.earthquake1906.org/hot_ocb_2r.htm) (fluff/angst/kink)
Epilogue: Us (http://www.earthquake1906.org/us.htm) (ficlet for Sirylu)
The epilogue ficlet shows what the guys' relationship might be like if they'd been practicing power exchange for awhile and had calmed down a bit, married-couple style. In case it is not clear from my fics, "how to keep a long term relationship hot" is one of my lifelong obsessions.
OK, now we pick up reena's questions in progress.
what is with this need for realism of bdsm scenes in a fandom like harry potter, where i would argue there is -no- realistic pairing that would easily incorporate it?
I actually agree with the point I think you are making here, which is that a typical "BDSM scene with Muggle-world realism" is hard to place at Hogwarts. In HOT/OCB one of my goals was to write an H/D fic with kink, and the only way I could think to make it realistic was to make it both AU and post-Hogwarts (fairly recently afterwards, but I fudge the ages a bit; they seem a lot older than 18 at points, but I'm using Gothic conventions in which the heroine is always 18, naive in some ways, preternaturally wise in others). So I guess that proves your point. Within my world (JaneEyreWorld) I tried to make things believable, though.
this is realistic bdsm for the sake of realistic bdsm, and if you're that eager to write/read that, why not just, oh, i dunno, do it or something?
In my case it worked the opposite way. I wanted to express, in my fic, things that were already in my life. Just the way I might want to sneak into a fic a cameo of my favorite green pork-pie hat, I wanted to see some power exchange and figure out a plausible reason for the guys to be into it.
you would have to justify two characters wanting to enact these elaborate power-play rituals with each other. why are they doing this? how does this fit into their relationship? are you sure this is what they'd want?
Exactly; these are the questions I tried to answer. Not saying I succeeded, but a writer's reach should exceed her grasp or what's a heaven for? Thank you so much for the ongoing dialogue!
*fangirls you*
*tips her pork-pie hat back and strides off jauntily, whistling*
earthquake
just joking about the hat!
Date: 2003-02-01 08:58 am (UTC)*shudders*
Re: my handful of knuts
Date: 2003-02-01 11:24 am (UTC)i know exactly what you mean about working in things from your own life-- i mean, everyone does it and usually it goes down okay, depending on the skill of the writer. personally, i feel slightly bad about it (slightly to significantly) depending on how ooc it is. for draco to be a poet-artiste because you're into that is almost impossible to really justify. for draco to like green tea (for instance) is somewhat easier to work in, you know?
i was feeling embarrassed for tackling this at all (due to my lack of experience and knowledge about everything i was covering), but i'm glad i made some sort of sense.
also, the comment about writers tipping their hat to the normal gay-lit tradition is a curious one and i haven't thought of it. i'd guess that there's a pretty low number of fanfic writers in this fandom who've had experience with that sort of thing, but i can still see it as a possible explanation. in truth, i just haven't seen it, but then, i'm sheltered as everyone knows, and stray little from recs i get from writers i trust, even within my otp.
and maybe i've -forgotten- most of the badfic by now, i dunno ^^
but yah. i'm happy i got across what i was meaning to, with you at least~:)
~reena