~~wherein reena says dirty words.
Jan. 30th, 2003 09:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
reenkaso... i haven't really ranted on this before, but--
yes. hp slashy smut writing, realism, in-character kink and so on. w00t!
ha. i can't even believe i'm talking about this. well, there are several factors why. firstly, i'm thinking/writing my smutfic for aja. secondly, there's the discussion about the unrealistic sex prevalent in fanfic (on the `hp outer circle' list)-- ie, "monster cocks" and unrealistic bdsm and such in (hp) slash.
well, as a smut reader, i haven't really found that unrealistic sex is the biggest problem, more like, really dry and unexciting and "and then slot went into conjunction with slot b" type of sex. but that's just me. as a writer, i'm of course, somewhat paranoid, because far be it from me to think i write realistic anything, forget gay sex. i mean, people may -like- it, but people are easy when it comes to smut. aren't they?
but anyway, there's always a lot of cross-fandom discussion about how to make gay sex more realistic and true-to-life and um... correct. these are typically also the people who want "realistically gay male" characters, and of course that is perfectly understandable, for who really -wants- "girls with dicks" anyway (er... ok, i won't go there).
but it occurred to me that all this really doesn't matter to me. what matters to me is emotional realism and intensity and desire and power-play and passion. and when i say "power play", i don't mean bdsm, because that's just the shortcut people use. real power-play occurs all the time, between every couple, in a million gazillion different ways. but, in the case of harry & draco, it's inevitable-- they're competitive, they're antagonistic, there's going to be a struggle to dominate, and i don't mean who gets to be on the bottom.
far too many sex scenes are written less emotionally than some descriptions of soccer matches i've seen. and of course there are those that seem sappier than a care-bears reunion, obviously, as well. either there's lots of curt, minimalist description that seems to rely almost entirely on the reader's finding that particular set of actions extremely sexy (ie, you'd have to operate very visually, and need the barest suggestion of action in order to visualize not only the actual sex, but the emotions that go along). or, there's almost a complete dearth of visual/physical description, which not only tends to use euphemisms for what it -does- describe, but may even use metaphors and pat phrases for the -emotional- component as well (ie, "their hearts flowed like butter as they tenderly embraced, their bodies moving in unison as they reached their final, most soul-wrenching pleasure" or something).
i find that a bigger problem than what size of cock the writer describes, or whether they used lube or not. who bloody well cares if they used lube or how or why, if it's written like a cellphone-usage manual? what are you, filming it??! making a sex-ed movie? what??
i've said this awhile ago, to![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
earthquake1906. what i think is most important for a well-done sex scene is the transmission of the character's desire. a psychological portrait, showing their need, their fear, their desperation-- putting the reader in their heads, letting them see and feel and know what's going on. of course, describing the physical actions is also important-- as important as at any other time in the story. because sex is a mixture of inner landscape and body-language. that is it. there is no necessary dialogue, no rules and no framework, really. almost anything can be "sex" to the characters.
the scenes i found most successful used the emotional momentum and drive of the previous scenes, of the rest of the story, to set up a situation where desire and circumstance come together and everything kind of connects and um... climaxes, so to speak. ahem. and you have some sort of reflection of their dynamic for the rest of the fic-- angry, empty, sad, desperate, tender, v. v. horny ("ack! have to have you NOW!").... i think when the sex is a basic part of the narrative, it doesn't matter whether there's lube or not, it's realistic.
and of course, conversely, the sex can be the most anatomically correct thing to come down the pike since the latest "big book of gay sex" came out or whatever, but if it doesn't seem to make complete sense that it's happening right then, between these two people, it's worthless to me (and a talented writer can set up this believability within mere paragraphs. it doesn't take chapters and chapters of set-up or anything)..
maybe i just don't get it. i mean, it's not like i want to see endless orgies of neverending teenage-boy endurance, monstrous-sized penises and orgasms by nipple-biting, or whatever unrealistic thing. but what good writer does that? that's ridiculous. who even -describes- the size of the penis, for gahd's sake? that's just lame to start with. i mean, describing the penis is one thing, if you're using a character's pov who'd be looking at it and paying attention. suddenly turning the character into a porn-star is another.
also, i was thinking about bdsm in the context of hp slash and had to admit that i just "don't get it". i mean, i've seen people rant about how it's important to have realistic bdsm and so on... but what this doesn't bring into question is -why- and -how- you're using this in your story. the only people who'd have enough experience to possibly do it "realistically" is adults. as i haven't read any adult slash, i wouldn't know how it all works, but the major adult pairing is sirius/remus where i'd -seriously- doubt there'd be any humiliation/overt power rituals involved. since they're friends, and stuff.
this brings up another point. why are you writing these characters into this scenario. just because it's a sexual scenario doesn't mean you could be out-of-character and it would be ok. and yes, i believe there's definitely such a thing as in-character sex. most definitely. and i think writer learning this is miles more important than writers learning the proper realistic gay male behavior during sex. more than a gay male, this is a particular character. a character who (like a "real person") has things they wouldn't be caught dead doing, sexually. things that they have "issues" with. things they probably would balk at. things they wouldn't know about. and so on.
i guess i just see a lot of sex-scenes written which are blatantly just an extension of the writer's happy little fantasy world. it doesn't matter to the writer -who- the characters are, as much as what they're doing. this is my impression from every draco/lucius incest and harry/lucius and draco/snape (and arguably harry/snape) fic that i've ever read. there is argument, even, whether liking draco is in character for harry at all. to make it -lucius-, and then to make it consensual, and then to make it bdsm, is completely disregarding almost everything about harry. of course, if it's nonconsensual pwp, once again i call into question why the author writes it, but it's ok, masturbation is a good thing (er, and just because it doesn't "do it" for me, doesn't mean that spreading the sexy is a bad thing either-- it's just worthless as far as literature goes).
so again. what is with this need for realism of bdsm scenes in a fandom like harry potter, where i would argue there is -no- realistic pairing that would easily incorporate it? this is realistic bdsm for the sake of realistic bdsm, and if you're that eager to write/read that, why not just, oh, i dunno, do it or something?
and anyway. slash by nature is written about (seemingly) straight guys, who may or may not have had experience with girls, but certainly haven't had much (or, to be safe, any) experience with guys. these people are likely to be reticent and clumsy and inexperienced when it comes to their initial sexual interactions with another male. bdsm is a kink. it is something people do when "normal" sex isn't enough, isn't arousing enough, isn't exciting enough. they need... more. whereas for -these- guys, being attracted to each other at all is likely to be like a frying pan hitting them on the side of the head. um. overwhelming. shocking. (probably) very arousing, as in-- unusual and new and exciting.
you would have to justify two characters wanting to enact these elaborate power-play rituals with each other. why are they doing this? how does this fit into their relationship? are you sure this is what they'd want? and would they go about it in quite that way, or would they just act on the whole instinctual, natural power-play that occurs in any relationship?
say it's tom riddle doing it with um... i dunno... ginny. there are not going to be any safe-words, that's for sure. i mean, in hp, anyone i can think of who'd want to be sadistic is basically a death-eater, and are evil to start with. this is a universe where evil is a very tangible thing. it's not a game. it's not a fantasy. it's life and death and it's happening all the time, completely outside of the bedroom. that is not so say, there isn't likely to be power-play in the bedroom just because some things are just a -tad- more... blatant than in "real life", already, in this universe. i'm just saying, in the potterverse, sadism isn't really a game, not even at hogwarts. being a slytherin, being mean, being cunning and amoral isn't a joke. it's all taken pretty seriously. you're in or you're out. slytherins vs. gryffindors, light vs. dark.
you'd have to set up your s&m in that context. and if it's between main players-- especially characters on opposite sides of this divide-- you'd have to really question what you're saying, here. if they're adults, they're either sadistic and evil or good and kind (in most blunt terms). if they're teenagers, they probably don't have enough experience to get too kinky. anyway. i think i ran out of steam, again ^^;;
yes. hp slashy smut writing, realism, in-character kink and so on. w00t!
ha. i can't even believe i'm talking about this. well, there are several factors why. firstly, i'm thinking/writing my smutfic for aja. secondly, there's the discussion about the unrealistic sex prevalent in fanfic (on the `hp outer circle' list)-- ie, "monster cocks" and unrealistic bdsm and such in (hp) slash.
well, as a smut reader, i haven't really found that unrealistic sex is the biggest problem, more like, really dry and unexciting and "and then slot went into conjunction with slot b" type of sex. but that's just me. as a writer, i'm of course, somewhat paranoid, because far be it from me to think i write realistic anything, forget gay sex. i mean, people may -like- it, but people are easy when it comes to smut. aren't they?
but anyway, there's always a lot of cross-fandom discussion about how to make gay sex more realistic and true-to-life and um... correct. these are typically also the people who want "realistically gay male" characters, and of course that is perfectly understandable, for who really -wants- "girls with dicks" anyway (er... ok, i won't go there).
but it occurred to me that all this really doesn't matter to me. what matters to me is emotional realism and intensity and desire and power-play and passion. and when i say "power play", i don't mean bdsm, because that's just the shortcut people use. real power-play occurs all the time, between every couple, in a million gazillion different ways. but, in the case of harry & draco, it's inevitable-- they're competitive, they're antagonistic, there's going to be a struggle to dominate, and i don't mean who gets to be on the bottom.
far too many sex scenes are written less emotionally than some descriptions of soccer matches i've seen. and of course there are those that seem sappier than a care-bears reunion, obviously, as well. either there's lots of curt, minimalist description that seems to rely almost entirely on the reader's finding that particular set of actions extremely sexy (ie, you'd have to operate very visually, and need the barest suggestion of action in order to visualize not only the actual sex, but the emotions that go along). or, there's almost a complete dearth of visual/physical description, which not only tends to use euphemisms for what it -does- describe, but may even use metaphors and pat phrases for the -emotional- component as well (ie, "their hearts flowed like butter as they tenderly embraced, their bodies moving in unison as they reached their final, most soul-wrenching pleasure" or something).
i find that a bigger problem than what size of cock the writer describes, or whether they used lube or not. who bloody well cares if they used lube or how or why, if it's written like a cellphone-usage manual? what are you, filming it??! making a sex-ed movie? what??
i've said this awhile ago, to
earthquake1906. what i think is most important for a well-done sex scene is the transmission of the character's desire. a psychological portrait, showing their need, their fear, their desperation-- putting the reader in their heads, letting them see and feel and know what's going on. of course, describing the physical actions is also important-- as important as at any other time in the story. because sex is a mixture of inner landscape and body-language. that is it. there is no necessary dialogue, no rules and no framework, really. almost anything can be "sex" to the characters. the scenes i found most successful used the emotional momentum and drive of the previous scenes, of the rest of the story, to set up a situation where desire and circumstance come together and everything kind of connects and um... climaxes, so to speak. ahem. and you have some sort of reflection of their dynamic for the rest of the fic-- angry, empty, sad, desperate, tender, v. v. horny ("ack! have to have you NOW!").... i think when the sex is a basic part of the narrative, it doesn't matter whether there's lube or not, it's realistic.
and of course, conversely, the sex can be the most anatomically correct thing to come down the pike since the latest "big book of gay sex" came out or whatever, but if it doesn't seem to make complete sense that it's happening right then, between these two people, it's worthless to me (and a talented writer can set up this believability within mere paragraphs. it doesn't take chapters and chapters of set-up or anything)..
maybe i just don't get it. i mean, it's not like i want to see endless orgies of neverending teenage-boy endurance, monstrous-sized penises and orgasms by nipple-biting, or whatever unrealistic thing. but what good writer does that? that's ridiculous. who even -describes- the size of the penis, for gahd's sake? that's just lame to start with. i mean, describing the penis is one thing, if you're using a character's pov who'd be looking at it and paying attention. suddenly turning the character into a porn-star is another.
also, i was thinking about bdsm in the context of hp slash and had to admit that i just "don't get it". i mean, i've seen people rant about how it's important to have realistic bdsm and so on... but what this doesn't bring into question is -why- and -how- you're using this in your story. the only people who'd have enough experience to possibly do it "realistically" is adults. as i haven't read any adult slash, i wouldn't know how it all works, but the major adult pairing is sirius/remus where i'd -seriously- doubt there'd be any humiliation/overt power rituals involved. since they're friends, and stuff.
this brings up another point. why are you writing these characters into this scenario. just because it's a sexual scenario doesn't mean you could be out-of-character and it would be ok. and yes, i believe there's definitely such a thing as in-character sex. most definitely. and i think writer learning this is miles more important than writers learning the proper realistic gay male behavior during sex. more than a gay male, this is a particular character. a character who (like a "real person") has things they wouldn't be caught dead doing, sexually. things that they have "issues" with. things they probably would balk at. things they wouldn't know about. and so on.
i guess i just see a lot of sex-scenes written which are blatantly just an extension of the writer's happy little fantasy world. it doesn't matter to the writer -who- the characters are, as much as what they're doing. this is my impression from every draco/lucius incest and harry/lucius and draco/snape (and arguably harry/snape) fic that i've ever read. there is argument, even, whether liking draco is in character for harry at all. to make it -lucius-, and then to make it consensual, and then to make it bdsm, is completely disregarding almost everything about harry. of course, if it's nonconsensual pwp, once again i call into question why the author writes it, but it's ok, masturbation is a good thing (er, and just because it doesn't "do it" for me, doesn't mean that spreading the sexy is a bad thing either-- it's just worthless as far as literature goes).
so again. what is with this need for realism of bdsm scenes in a fandom like harry potter, where i would argue there is -no- realistic pairing that would easily incorporate it? this is realistic bdsm for the sake of realistic bdsm, and if you're that eager to write/read that, why not just, oh, i dunno, do it or something?
and anyway. slash by nature is written about (seemingly) straight guys, who may or may not have had experience with girls, but certainly haven't had much (or, to be safe, any) experience with guys. these people are likely to be reticent and clumsy and inexperienced when it comes to their initial sexual interactions with another male. bdsm is a kink. it is something people do when "normal" sex isn't enough, isn't arousing enough, isn't exciting enough. they need... more. whereas for -these- guys, being attracted to each other at all is likely to be like a frying pan hitting them on the side of the head. um. overwhelming. shocking. (probably) very arousing, as in-- unusual and new and exciting.
you would have to justify two characters wanting to enact these elaborate power-play rituals with each other. why are they doing this? how does this fit into their relationship? are you sure this is what they'd want? and would they go about it in quite that way, or would they just act on the whole instinctual, natural power-play that occurs in any relationship?
say it's tom riddle doing it with um... i dunno... ginny. there are not going to be any safe-words, that's for sure. i mean, in hp, anyone i can think of who'd want to be sadistic is basically a death-eater, and are evil to start with. this is a universe where evil is a very tangible thing. it's not a game. it's not a fantasy. it's life and death and it's happening all the time, completely outside of the bedroom. that is not so say, there isn't likely to be power-play in the bedroom just because some things are just a -tad- more... blatant than in "real life", already, in this universe. i'm just saying, in the potterverse, sadism isn't really a game, not even at hogwarts. being a slytherin, being mean, being cunning and amoral isn't a joke. it's all taken pretty seriously. you're in or you're out. slytherins vs. gryffindors, light vs. dark.
you'd have to set up your s&m in that context. and if it's between main players-- especially characters on opposite sides of this divide-- you'd have to really question what you're saying, here. if they're adults, they're either sadistic and evil or good and kind (in most blunt terms). if they're teenagers, they probably don't have enough experience to get too kinky. anyway. i think i ran out of steam, again ^^;;
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A few (extraneous) extra comments
Date: 2003-02-01 05:42 am (UTC)Regarding unrealistic sex in fics, I would have to say that has been a complaint of mine for a long time. There are few fics reflecting the reality of first and early stage teenage sexual encounters, instead endowing our heroes with techniques, prowess and stamina undreamt of by the average (or even the experienced) 16 year old. I have to agree with the comments about the need to refer to lube (and more), but can live without such details in a fic which is not giving a frame by frame replay (where I would definitely notice their absence). However, since I regard fics as fantasy, I am fine with the lack of Sex Ed 101 (though hope no readers out there fail to educate themselves before a RL encounter). Having said that, though, I totally endorse your cry for emotional realism and relationship realism, and agree that “sex” covers a much wider spectrum of interactions than the shrink-wrapped manual. If only more writers could get the emotional part right, I could forgive a lot more about the unrealistic etc sex scenes.
As far as BDSM is concerned, I agree that some writers include it as playing out their own fantasy (as indeed much in fic is of the wish-fulfilment nature), and sometimes their inexperience shines through. Another of my pet peeves is that a lot of non-con is poorly written, showing an almost offensive ignorance of its dimensions and repercussions, instead using it as if it were indeed the fantasy which is role-playing in BDSM / power exchange. I would rather see fics with role playing BDSM than the PWP non-con horrors, as long as it works with the characters. I think BDSM unlikely as a first encounter between H&D, for example, but can see scenarios where merely holding down one’s partner, teasing and delaying gratification, for example could easily work for the characters’ dynamic. The power dynamic is about trust, not about humiliation. Showing that they have built up to this level of trust, to consent to power exchange sex, from their previous hostilities (I am thinking H/D dynamic here, as my favourite pair) speaks volumes about the relationship as a whole.
Re: A few (extraneous) extra comments
Date: 2003-02-01 11:32 am (UTC)and thanks, i'm glad i managed to get across so many of my points in a coherent manner to you~:) since everyone pretty much concentrated on my lack of insight about bdsm (which i admit to) and the unfortunate singling out of lube for a telling bit of "realism", i felt sort of lost and unsure as to how to respond.
but, i'm aware and wasn't contesting the in-characterness of a fic,
where merely holding down one’s partner, teasing and delaying gratification
is not enough to qualify anything for a bdsm fic, and actually would be included in the "natural power-play" i mentioned in my post~:)
though this is the most common sort of misunderstanding people got from my little rant, so i suppose i should be grateful ^^
anything natural, anything that can people can come up with on their own, is fine. my only unrealistic quibble is with stuff you have to -learn- and especially if you do it the -muggle- way, and especially if you do it the -latest-, -safest- muggle way, that is all.
but um, i'm -really- not suited to do more than state my opinion on this, so i'm just happy you agreed with so many points and i don't have to defend myself (because i don't know if i could, heh).
~reena